Port Vale (H) League One - Saturday 8th September, 1pm KO

[Cheesebag]

Just gpt back in from Pittsburgh, I am very disappointed.

Is Pittsburgh really that bad?

[Cheesebag]

OK, Could have been 3-3 today, and to be fair I thought the lads applied themselves pretty well, even if Fail are quite a poor team.

There are certainly signs of encouragement from certain aspects of our play but what worries me most is the failure to convert chances.

Another thing that baffles me is DD's substitutions? Was I the only one who thought Wrack should have been substituted, also Deeney on for Hall.

Still onwards to Milwall. A must win game (Is that clichie enough) :lol:

[WombourneSaddler]

I also feel as though I watched a different match to a lot of people. The game I was watching involved two poorish teams who, based on their performances today, will be in the bottom 6-8 most of the season. I thought we just edged it in terms of chances, attacking intent and creativity, but that wasn't saying much, considering how poor Port Vale were.

There was an absence of pace about our play, both in terms of individual speed (of thought as well as velocity) and speed of passing. Consequently, though the players were clearly putting in a lot of effort, our passing moves were on the ponderous side of predictable, we regularly allowed them time to get players back behind the ball and too few players were prepared to run into space, to gamble, to risk a quick one-touch pass, to get a first time cross in. A combination of nerves, lack of confidence and ageing legs gave us a ponderous look today.

And on the subject of chances, as was pointed out on another thread, taking your chances is part of the game. There is no extra column in the league table after goals scored for chances created. In any match, 99% of teams will have chances, maybe 4-5, only the absolutely dreadful teams create nothing. I am not interested in hearing about how many chances we created - the guy earlier on this thread who said that if we'd taken our chances, we'd have won 6-0 - I love the positive thinking but we can carry on talking like that all season and still be relegated.

That said, Dicky Dosh is a good manager, or at least a half decent one, and I am sure he will keep working to put things right.

On a lighter note, I thoroughly enjoyed watching that little git Tudor get wound up all match before limping off to the subs bench, still whinging. Makes it all worthwhile.

[PT]

Was I the only one who thought Wrack should have been substituted

No.

[Cannock]

Same here. Wrack was simply awful.

He seemed a yard off the pace and looked the proverbial headless chicken.

Terrible miss with the goal gaping too.

Foxy played ok and was unfortunate to come off.

[sack]

So what happened to, when we stop making defensive mistakes we'll start winning, well we did, and we didn't. we did look much better today but i'm sorry that was just because vale are woefull. centre backs in midfield, left back no the wing, winger up front, just unprofessional. Versatility is good but that takes the biss, whats next Clayton right back. for muck sake.

[Plastic Hawk]

I thought that today was a much better team performance than any other game so far this season. We were superior to Vale all over the park except for the one area that really mattered: their penalty box. But despite that I'm more despondent tonight than after any of those other games.

Vale were there for the taking today, the back four looked sorted (did Ince have a serious save to make?), we had almost all of the play and, with better quality in the final third, could have won comfortably (and by that I mean 3,4-0). But we just never really looked like scoring - even when Wrack took it past the keeper he never looked set and dawdled long enough for the defender to get back and block the shot. Gerrard had a similar chance seconds later that was also fluffed and there was a 20 second goalmouth scramble in the second half when we couldn't force the ball over the line. Chances like those must be taken at this level. Games that we dominate to that extent must be won.

We should have had a penalty in the first half - absolutely stonewall - but there's no point crying too much about that as the game shouldn't have been tight enough for dodgy decisions to affect it - we should have been well clear.

If we're not going to win games like today's then we'll struggle to get to 35 points, let alone a reasonable target for safety.

Individually everyone played ok (obviously some better than others, but nobody really had a shocker), but we just don't have the right blend of players in there at all. We desperately need a mobile, goalscorer to play right up top and a box to box midfielder to link everything together. Today's side with six defenders, an ageing winger up front, little pace or height all over the park and a whole load of random kids chucked on at the end more in hope than expectation bore more than a passing resemblance to a Merson effort. The balance of the side needs to be sorted now. We're not going to pick up any more than draws with the current personnel so we could be cut adrift within a month or so.

[PT]

Did Ince have a serious save to make?

Yes

[Plastic Hawk]

Same here. Wrack was simply awful.

He seemed a yard off the pace and looked the proverbial headless chicken.

Terrible miss with the goal gaping too.

Foxy played ok and was unfortunate to come off.

I thought Wrack gave the type of performance some were accusing Butler of last season. Just enough running to convince people that he was really putting an effort in (and he did cover a lot of ground), but somehow always arriving just half a second too late to effect a tackle or get a shot on goal. The one-on-one he missed was indeed shocking. Had to take it earlier rather than giving the defender a chance to get back. Overall, I thought he was ok (certainly much better than against Swansea), but I'm still not convinced that he's up to playing professional football since his injury.

Fox I was also impressed with. Would have moved him inside and taken Gerrard off when Ishmel came on (actually would have started with Fox central, Ishmel left). Gerrard did his best, but he's just not a midfielder. He surprised me with how good he was when they had the ball, but his passing is too ponderous when we have it - numerous times he slowed down our attacks and gave Vale a chance to regroup. Not his fault though: he shouldn't be asked to play out of position.

Also, I don't see what the fuss is about Boertien (sponsors' MOM). He looked neat and tidy again and was solid defensively, but I still think he takes easy options every time rather than taking responsibility himself for getting things done. He did overlap a bit more this week, but I did he actually get any crosses in? At least two or three times he overlapped the winger and was played into perfect positions to cross, only to give the ball straight back to either Fox or Ishmel in order for them to try to put in a cross standing still and from a worse angle. That's just not good enough - he has to take it on himself to put the ball into the box from the byline. Weston impressed me more at full back today.

[Plastic Hawk]

Did Ince have a serious save to make?

Yes

What? That involved diving? When?

They only had two corners. I think that tells a story about how solid we were at the back. But it's not going to be enough if we can't stick it in the net at the other end.

[PT]

Did Ince have a serious save to make?

Yes

What? That involved diving? When?

They only had two corners. I think that tells a story about how solid we were at the back. But it's not going to be enough if we can't stick it in the net at the other end.

Second half, shot across him (similar to Mooney goal vs Carlisle), Ince dived to his left and just about clawed the ball and gathered it at the second attempt.

[Plastic Hawk]

Did Ince have a serious save to make?

Yes

What? That involved diving? When?

They only had two corners. I think that tells a story about how solid we were at the back. But it's not going to be enough if we can't stick it in the net at the other end.

Second half, shot across him (similar to Mooney goal vs Carlisle), Ince dived to his left and just about clawed the ball and gathered it at the second attempt.

Hmmm. I suppose he did have to dive for that one but I thought that was one for the cameras really. My impression was that the Vale guy scuffed it across him and he could pretty much have thrown his cap on it and stopped it. Would have been very disappointed if it had got past him.

Thought Clayton looked like he was getting back to his best as far as commanding his box went. And that seemed to feed through to the back four, who looked a much more solid unit, especially second half.

[sack]

aup fellah, spot on, see i told you you'd see it in the end.

I thought that today was a much better team performance than any other game so far this season. We were superior to Vale all over the park except for the one area that really mattered: their penalty box. But despite that I'm more despondent tonight than after any of those other games.

Vale were there for the taking today, the back four looked sorted (did Ince have a serious save to make?), we had almost all of the play and, with better quality in the final third, could have won comfortably (and by that I mean 3,4-0). But we just never really looked like scoring - even when Wrack took it past the keeper he never looked set and dawdled long enough for the defender to get back and block the shot. Gerrard had a similar chance seconds later that was also fluffed and there was a 20 second goalmouth scramble in the second half when we couldn't force the ball over the line. Chances like those must be taken at this level. Games that we dominate to that extent must be won.

We should have had a penalty in the first half - absolutely stonewall - but there's no point crying too much about that as the game shouldn't have been tight enough for dodgy decisions to affect it - we should have been well clear.

If we're not going to win games like today's then we'll struggle to get to 35 points, let alone a reasonable target for safety.

Individually everyone played ok (obviously some better than others, but nobody really had a shocker), but we just don't have the right blend of players in there at all. We desperately need a mobile, goalscorer to play right up top and a box to box midfielder to link everything together. Today's side with six defenders, an ageing winger up front, little pace or height all over the park and a whole load of random kids chucked on at the end more in hope than expectation bore more than a passing resemblance to a Merson effort. The balance of the side needs to be sorted now. We're not going to pick up any more than draws with the current personnel so we could be cut adrift within a month or so.

[WFC_Rob]

The talk of urgency is inevitable given that we blatantly have no pace in the side. When I say no pace, I'm not even exaggerating. This side is the slowest I've seen for years. It's not a bad side by any means, but needs a couple of extra options. Gerrard played like a centre half in midfield today. Tried his best, won his headers and covered for others where necessary, but that's not enough.

The chances we created should have been taken really. Fox's was arguably the pick of the bunch and he was unlucky in that the ball would not drop for him, giving the keeper time to come and smother his eventual shot. I thought Fox was a contender for man of the match and couldn't understand why he was taken off. Hall looked knackered before half time and continued in the same vein through the second 45. I'd have replaced him with Ishmel.

Given that our two best chances fell to our wide midfielders making good runs inside, beyond the front two, I'm going to make a case for playing a five man midfield with just the one up front. If we give the wide midfielders a license to make runs into the box beyond the last defender, having that extra man up front isn't so important. The one problem with that is that we probably don't have enough quality in the middle of midfield as it is, so would have to bring in an xtra player to play that system. The other option could be to play Fox in the middle with Sonner and Dobson/Gerrard/McDermott/new signing with Ishmel wide.

I can understand people's excitement at the fact that we find ourselves with a bunch of youngsters making the squad, but I'm yet to be convinced that they are even good enough. We know that Ishmel can turn a game, but he showed his wasteful side today. It's all very well the guys on WM saying "he livened things up a bit," but if all his running ends with a poor cross or shot, he's not worth his place in the side. I don't want to be too harsh on him though as I think he was affected by the early injury he picked up which looked very serious initially. As for Alex Nicholls, it baffles me how a professional footballer can miss the ball completely under little pressure. He hasn't convinced me at all. Usually sees a lot of the ball, but rarely beats the first man with a cross. Where have I heard that before? Funilly enough, McDermott looked the most impressive of the 3 subs. His distribution was good and he made some intelligent runs. I'd like to see us bring in some more quality before he's given a run in the side though.

Again, the word 'frustration' springs to mind. I've come away from every game I've been to so far this season with a 'so near, yet so far' feeling. We play some tidy stuff at times and have plenty of experience to create enough chances to win games. Unfortunately, we lack pace and a striker who offers something different. I'm gettng the impression those two players are the difference between us being in a serious relegation battle and us challenging amongst the top 10.

[geoffwhiting]

Did Ince have a serious save to make?

Yes

What? That involved diving? When?

They only had two corners. I think that tells a story about how solid we were at the back. But it's not going to be enough if we can't stick it in the net at the other end.

Second half, shot across him (similar to Mooney goal vs Carlisle), Ince dived to his left and just about clawed the ball and gathered it at the second attempt.

He took that ball well, but it was going wide as it happens, I was right in line with it.

Vale actually had at least three great chances and fluffed the lot, the worst being their only real second-half chance, when their guy was about level with Ince's right hand post, about 5-6 yards out, waited for the ball to drop, just needed to volley it and it was a certain goal, but he made a complete balls-up of it, just laughable.

But the chances we missed bordered on the criminal to be honest.

[Plastic Hawk]

aup fellah, spot on, see i told you you'd see it in the end.

Been trying to stay positive and hoping that when we sorted the silly mistakes at the back things'd come right. Butwe did that today and still couldn't capitalize. If you don't score goals you don't pick up many points.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[canadiansaddler]

Just gpt back in from Pittsburgh, I am very disappointed.

Is Pittsburgh really that bad?

Yes - it makes Hamilton, Ontario look good :) - good Museums though

[Plastic Hawk]

Again, the word 'frustration' springs to mind. I've come away from every game I've been to so far this season with a 'so near, yet so far' feeling. We play some tidy stuff at times and have plenty of experience to create enough chances to win games. Unfortunately, we lack pace and a striker who offers something different. I'm gettng the impression those two players are the difference between us being in a serious relegation battle and us challenging amongst the top 10.

This sums up exactly how I feel. Only I'd go further and say that without the at least one of those two players (probably the striker) it's a relegation battle that I think we're doomed to lose. Being tidy's not enough to win football games. I'd rather we had the pragmatic stuff we saw last year than try and prove points by playing a more expansive game that I'm not convinced we have the players for. As I say, this side looks more like a Merson one in reverse (ie competent defence, clueless going forwards) with every passing week - without wanting to appear to panic, the rot needs to be stopped early or we're in for a very long season.

[WFC_Rob]

Again, the word 'frustration' springs to mind. I've come away from every game I've been to so far this season with a 'so near, yet so far' feeling. We play some tidy stuff at times and have plenty of experience to create enough chances to win games. Unfortunately, we lack pace and a striker who offers something different. I'm gettng the impression those two players are the difference between us being in a serious relegation battle and us challenging amongst the top 10.

This sums up exactly how I feel. Only I'd go further and say that without the at least one of those two players (probably the striker) it's a relegation battle that I think we're doomed to lose. Being tidy's not enough to win football games. I'd rather we had the pragmatic stuff we saw last year than try and prove points by playing a more expansive game that I'm not convinced we have the players for. As I say, this side looks more like a Merson one in reverse (ie competent defence, clueless going forwards) with every passing week - without wanting to appear to panic, the rot needs to be stopped early or we're in for a very long season.

Still too early for me to believe we'll go down unless something is done but I know what you mean. People were talking about todays result stopping the rot, but I'm not so sure. We played well, but that 'rot' has been not scoring goals. In that respect, we've done nothing to stop the rot at all.

[Cannock]

I thought Wrack gave the type of performance some were accusing Butler of last season. Just enough running to convince people that he was really putting an effort in (and he did cover a lot of ground), but somehow always arriving just half a second too late to effect a tackle or get a shot on goal. The one-on-one he missed was indeed shocking. Had to take it earlier rather than giving the defender a chance to get back. Overall, I thought he was ok (certainly much better than against Swansea), but I'm still not convinced that he's up to playing professional football since his injury.

Fox I was also impressed with. Would have moved him inside and taken Gerrard off when Ishmel came on (actually would have started with Fox central, Ishmel left). Gerrard did his best, but he's just not a midfielder. He surprised me with how good he was when they had the ball, but his passing is too ponderous when we have it - numerous times he slowed down our attacks and gave Vale a chance to regroup. Not his fault though: he shouldn't be asked to play out of position.

Also, I don't see what the fuss is about Boertien (sponsors' MOM). He looked neat and tidy again and was solid defensively, but I still think he takes easy options every time rather than taking responsibility himself for getting things done. He did overlap a bit more this week, but I did he actually get any crosses in? At least two or three times he overlapped the winger and was played into perfect positions to cross, only to give the ball straight back to either Fox or Ishmel in order for them to try to put in a cross standing still and from a worse angle. That's just not good enough - he has to take it on himself to put the ball into the box from the byline. Weston impressed me more at full back today.

Spot on with all those observations

[Cannock]

WFC Rob.

We've just played one of the worst teams we will come up against this season. At home.

Pray tell where you think the necessary points for survival are likely to come from. Forest excepted as thats a nailed on 6 points obviously.

[WFC_Rob]

WFC Rob.

We've just played one of the worst teams we will come up against this season. At home.

Pray tell where you think the necessary points for survival are likely to come from. Forest excepted as thats a nailed on 6 points obviously.

Without wanting to sound as though I'm clutching at straws, we're still yet to see Money's forst choice starting eleven. Mooney and Butler are yet to play up front together and I think that is one of the big disappintments of the season so far.
I don't really apreciate people's premature judgmental comments such as "they're one of the worst teams we'll play". They snatched 3 points at Bournemouth last week which is no mean feat. People always like to speculate about teams far too early. Most people seemed to think Orient were relegation certs before we played them I wonder how many are thinking the same now.

For the first 2 or 3 months of last season everything went our way. Around Xmas and the turn of the year, nothing was going our way. What's to say we're not just suffering from the opposite at the moment?

Our squad doesn't have enough depth, which was evident today as our eldest outfield sub was 19/20. When Sonko, Mooney and Dobson return to the squad though, things will look brighter.
Call me a 'happy clapper' if you like, but I'm just stating my willingness to give Money a chance to show us his best team.

[Cannock]

I'm not calling you a happy clapper at all.

I'm just expressing my serious concern over our ability to compete at this level with our current squad.

Regarding Orient away, yes we played well BUT you could see they would be a threat in this league simply through the shear pace and movement of their attack.

Regarding ourselves, it is worrying we are unable to see off teams such as Vale, particularly at home given we have already seen much better teams than our friends from the Potteries.

Sadly i am not the type of person who thinks things will be ok when so and so plays together.

As a team unit, in my view, we are very poor indeed.

The fault of this is down to one person and one person only.

The manager.

[Salop Saddler]

The truth is we can just about hack it with the Port Vales of this division, other than that we're sitting targets for any side who can inject pace into their play.

We missed a few tricks in the closed season. We needed to bring in a mobile front man and introduce a degree of pace into the middle of the park. We did neither and chose instead to go down the 'experienced old head' route with the intention of consolidating our position in the league. That was an admirable plan but one which I feel was an error of judgement. Before anyone say's, "well we tried to get Byfield to address one of those problems", I doubt we ever did, other than to pay lip service to the supporters concerns about signing somebody to shore up what was clearly a problem which stuck out like a sore thumb.

In support of DD he's yet to get his prefered starting eleven out onto the pitch (I think). Hopefully, once he does, there may be an upturn in results. Mooney and Sonko can bring something to the table, but that's asking a lot from one player who's well into the veteran stage and another who has to experience the rough and tumble of league one football for the first time on a regular basis.

As it stands we're struggling, and either Bonser or STM need to start pulling a few rabbits from the hat or the consequences of failing to do so are clearly there for all to see.

[WFC_Rob]

The fault of this is down to one person and one person only.

The manager.

That comment surprises me.
Seriously, what do you think Richard Money, as our manager, is doing wrong?

I can't think of much if I'm honest. All comes down to what he's got to work with if you ask me.

[Salop Saddler]

The fault of this is down to one person and one person only.

The manager.

That comment surprises me.
Seriously, what do you think Richard Money, as our manager, is doing wrong?

I can't think of much if I'm honest. All comes down to what he's got to work with if you ask me.

I really do believe he's doing the best he can with the people available. Now whether the people who are available to him are soley down to DD or down to somebody else is another question.

[Plastic Hawk]

The fault of this is down to one person and one person only.

The manager.

That comment surprises me.
Seriously, what do you think Richard Money, as our manager, is doing wrong?

I can't think of much if I'm honest. All comes down to what he's got to work with if you ask me.

Whether or not that's DD's fault or not comes down to how much his hands have been tied in the transfer market - and we'll most likely never know the answer to that. Some on here (who claim to be in the know) will tell us that JB's not given him enough money and that PT is pursuing his own agenda with regards to transfers. Others (who also say they have inside knowledge) will say that DD still has a decent chunk of his budget left to spend, that he's made errors in the players that he has recruited and that it's his own fault that he has nothing to work with.

[Cannock]

The truth is we can just about hack it with the Port Vales of this division, other than that we're sitting targets for any side who can inject pace into their play.

We missed a few tricks in the closed season. We needed to bring in a mobile front man and introduce a degree of pace into the middle of the park. We did neither and chose instead to go down the 'experienced old head' route with the intention of consolidating our position in the league. That was an admirable plan but one which I feel was an error of judgement. Before anyone say's, "well we tried to get Byfield to address one of those problems", I doubt we ever did, other than to pay lip service to the supporters concerns about signing somebody to shore up what was clearly a problem which stuck out like a sore thumb.

In support of DD he's yet to get his prefered starting eleven out onto the pitch (I think). Hopefully, once he does, there may be an upturn in results. Mooney and Sonko can bring something to the table, but that's asking a lot from one player who's well into the veteran stage and another who has to experience the rough and tumble of league one football for the first time on a regular basis.

As it stands we're struggling, and either Bonser or STM need to start pulling a few rabbits from the hat or the consequences of failing to do so are clearly there for all to see.

Spot on fellah.

[Cannock]

The fault of this is down to one person and one person only.

The manager.

That comment surprises me.
Seriously, what do you think Richard Money, as our manager, is doing wrong?

I can't think of much if I'm honest. All comes down to what he's got to work with if you ask me.

Whether or not that's DD's fault or not comes down to how much his hands have been tied in the transfer market - and we'll most likely never know the answer to that. Some on here (who claim to be in the know) will tell us that JB's not given him enough money and that PT is pursuing his own agenda with regards to transfers. Others (who also say they have inside knowledge) will say that DD still has a decent chunk of his budget left to spend, that he's made errors in the players that he has recruited and that it's his own fault that he has nothing to work with.

The comment is based around the fact that this is his team.

He chose the players to work with.

RG successfully negotiated this league - twice.

And RG didn't really have somewhere to start from....

I doubt the fact we offer players peanuts and a packet of crisps nowadays is significantly different from those halcyon days from a few years ago.

[WFC_Rob]

The fault of this is down to one person and one person only.

The manager.

That comment surprises me.
Seriously, what do you think Richard Money, as our manager, is doing wrong?

I can't think of much if I'm honest. All comes down to what he's got to work with if you ask me.

I really do believe he's doing the best he can with the people available. Now whether the people who are available to him are soley down to DD or down to somebody else is another question.

My thoughts exactly. If we look at DD's signings in terms of their order, he has always brought in experienced British players first before signing unknown foreigners to fill the squad out a bit. Without wanting to have a dig at Sonko, does anyone think he's have signed Hall if Sonko was the player he really wanted? That's just one example. I fail to see an argument in favour of Money being 100% responsible for bringing Carneiro, Junior and Sonko in and that is where I believe much of the problem lies.