Leyton Orient (A) League - Saturday 18th August 2007

[Salop Saddler]

Dave - we can't afford a lengthy spell for a player, who's nearly 33, to get used to English football - we'd be relegation certainties by the time he got the hang of it - if he ever did! In our situation, a player on 1st team wages has got to "hit the ground running", so to speak...

Surely he was signed with a view to getting used to football in this country in the reserves, with Mooney & Butler as first choice.

Sounds like a bit of a luxury to me. If he was a 19 year old then okay, but in his 30's?

[WFC_Rob]

Just read the extracts from that Steve Madeley report and I can't disagree with what he's written about Caneiro. He did alright, but never looked like he was going to put the ball in the net, which is what we need.

[TimWilkes]

The need for a goalscorer is obvious...then again, I thought Paul Hall was easily our Man of the Match, so what do I know :shock:

[Duke]

Dave - we can't afford a lengthy spell for a player, who's nearly 33, to get used to English football - we'd be relegation certainties by the time he got the hang of it - if he ever did! In our situation, a player on 1st team wages has got to "hit the ground running", so to speak.
.

Fair comment Leamore , perhaps DD is at fault for bringing in an overseas player at that age. but to write a player off after just 3 appearences is a little unfair.

[philthesaddler]

Hmmm, I'm in two minds here... Granted, I agree with some who say we played okay, but on the other hand, I don't agree with the comments along the lines of if we play like that every week we'll finish comfortably.

Purely because we created just two clear cut chances against a very poor side, anyone who thinks Orient will be play off or top half material, as some folk said last week, is living in cloud cuckoo land. They were dreadful, make no mistake.

I don't think we'll come up against many teams as poor as them away from home this season and a failure to get a point against them really must go down as dropped points.

Which is why, if we play like that every week, we will struggle as we'll come up against better teams who will create more opportunities and if we continue to waste and fail to create more opportunities, then we'll quite simply lose matches.

I know folk say that pre-season isn't really indicative of anything, however we've played 9 games including pre-season and we've failed to score in 5 of them... Of the 4 games we have scored in, 2 were against non-league sides. As I said pre-season and was shouted down at pre-season, I don't think we've got the creativity or the strikers capable of scoring.

There is a foundation there, quite clearly, but whether we've got the finances to actually build on those foundations is the question to ask.

I think that is a top post.

I'm still waiting for this exciting strike force Bonser promised us.

[big baz 1]

I think the criticsim that caniero received was a little harsh, some walsall fans are expecting too much of him too quickly. He come has from a different country, different league where the pace of the game is totally different to the english game. He has is trying to settle into a new culture and new surroundings and as i far as i know he doesnt speak english someone correct me on that if im wrong. I hope butler is ready for saturday and i wouldnt of minded of seeing troy deeny come off the bench saturday, but dd didnt even put him on the bench.

[ws3]

I think the criticsim that caniero received was a little harsh, some walsall fans are expecting too much of him too quickly. He come has from a different country, different league where the pace of the game is totally different to the english game. He has is trying to settle into a new culture and new surroundings and as i far as i know he doesnt speak english someone correct me on that if im wrong. I hope butler is ready for saturday and i wouldnt of minded of seeing troy deeny come off the bench saturday, but dd didnt even put him on the bench.

His posts on here seem ok

:wink:

[philthesaddler]

I think the criticsim that caniero received was a little harsh, some walsall fans are expecting too much of him too quickly. He come has from a different country, different league where the pace of the game is totally different to the english game. He has is trying to settle into a new culture and new surroundings and as i far as i know he doesnt speak english someone correct me on that if im wrong. I hope butler is ready for saturday and i wouldnt of minded of seeing troy deeny come off the bench saturday, but dd didnt even put him on the bench.

But Baz a decent player is a decent player, fans would be able to see that and appreciate it even if he wasn't having the best of games - things like little touches, movement, pace, their footballing brain - those kind of things are evident in a player even when they are playing below par.

Besides, why did anyone thought he'd be decent - he cost us nothing, he's 32, he's never played in this country before and his record wasn't exactly brilliant.

And to think some people argued so strongly against signing the likes of Spencer Weir Daley [not at dig at you mark], it just shows, with our record of signing pants strikers, we really shouldn't pass up the oppurtunity to sign players like SWD when they come along.

I mean what did DD see in Carneiro to make him choose him over SWD? Age? No, Carneiro is older and has less years left in him. Scoring Record? No, SWD hasn't got the best either but would probably beat Carneiro all the same.

[big baz 1]

Good points you make there mate, i would rather of had SWD over caniero but dd has said that we have troy deeny who is exactly the same type of player as SWD and dd said he didnt think that SWD is any improvement on troy deeny hence the reason we didnt sign him. Maybe we have signed canrieo as the cheap option as we got no chance and we cant afford to sign baby boy as i heard a lady say at the match saturday. Who knows? I was dissapointed to see that deeny wasnt even on the bench saturday.

[Ian Gittins]

I think when people question why Money finds the need to lambast our spectators and say they are harsh and don't give new players a chance to settle in... here's his justification exactly. I'm sure Carneiro did have a stinker on Saturday, but as Big Baz says, it's his third game in a new team and new country where he doesn't speak the language. For some loudmouth to lurch to the front of the crowd and loudly abuse him and tell him to go home... well, how is that going to improve his confidence, exactly? For God's sake, give the bloke a chance.

[Registered Saddler]

I think when people question why Money finds the need to lambast our spectators and say they are harsh and don't give new players a chance to settle in... here's his justification exactly. I'm sure Carneiro did have a stinker on Saturday, but as Big Baz says, it's his third game in a new team and new country where he doesn't speak the language. For some loudmouth to lurch to the front of the crowd and loudly abuse him and tell him to go home... well, how is that going to improve his confidence, exactly? For God's sake, give the bloke a chance.

Ah, but the fan has paid his money so he has the right to say what he wants, no matter how boorish or counter-productive. Yet Richard Money is the manager of the team, wanting everyone to pull together, so when he says as much he should keep his mouth shut (even if he's right) because it won't benefit the team. You can see the logic in that, surely? Surely? :? :? :?

[ws3]

I think when people question why Money finds the need to lambast our spectators and say they are harsh and don't give new players a chance to settle in... here's his justification exactly. I'm sure Carneiro did have a stinker on Saturday, but as Big Baz says, it's his third game in a new team and new country where he doesn't speak the language. For some loudmouth to lurch to the front of the crowd and loudly abuse him and tell him to go home... well, how is that going to improve his confidence, exactly? For God's sake, give the bloke a chance.

Ah, but the fan has paid his money so he has the right to say what he wants, no matter how boorish or counter-productive. Yet Richard Money is the manager of the team, wanting everyone to pull together, so when he says as much he should keep his mouth shut (even if he's right) because it won't benefit the team. You can see the logic in that, surely? Surely? :? :? :?

Can someone remind me what DD said. Not what you think he said but what he actually said.

[Ian Gittins]

Could not agree more, Registered. When I go to see a film, I pay to get in, but don't consider that gives me the right to swear my head off, talk loudly and generally behave like an all-round jerk. It seems accepted that different rules apply at football, and it's something I've never liked.

[Bernie]

When Troy Deeney is given a game we had all better hope that he does not miss any chances.

The clowns who barrack Carneiro will be waiting the chance to give him the same treatment.

[Registered Saddler]

I think when people question why Money finds the need to lambast our spectators and say they are harsh and don't give new players a chance to settle in... here's his justification exactly. I'm sure Carneiro did have a stinker on Saturday, but as Big Baz says, it's his third game in a new team and new country where he doesn't speak the language. For some loudmouth to lurch to the front of the crowd and loudly abuse him and tell him to go home... well, how is that going to improve his confidence, exactly? For God's sake, give the bloke a chance.

Ah, but the fan has paid his money so he has the right to say what he wants, no matter how boorish or counter-productive. Yet Richard Money is the manager of the team, wanting everyone to pull together, so when he says as much he should keep his mouth shut (even if he's right) because it won't benefit the team. You can see the logic in that, surely? Surely? :? :? :?

Can someone remind me what DD said. Not what you think he said but what he actually said.

I was being sarcastic, the lowest form of wit. I don't think DD's said anything bad - but anything he has said that could vaguely be considered derogatory towards the fans has been misconstrued or blown out of all proportion, while any comments praising our support are conveniently ignored.

[Bernie]

Could not agree more, Registered. When I go to see a film, I pay to get in, but don't consider that gives me the right to swear my head off, talk loudly and generally behave like an all-round jerk. It seems accepted that different rules apply at football, and it's something I've never liked.

I love the idea of everyone sitting in silence during a match, and generally behaving as if they were at a film.

Shhhh!!!

Shut up, stop cheering and eat your popcorn.

[BathSaddler]

Could not agree more, Registered. When I go to see a film, I pay to get in, but don't consider that gives me the right to swear my head off, talk loudly and generally behave like an all-round jerk. It seems accepted that different rules apply at football, and it's something I've never liked.

This is all getting ridiculous. From what I can see, no one on here is suggesting that roundly abusing a player is a positive thing. Both Leamore, myself and others have pointed out that the support was mainly either patient or quietly resigned. I am not justifying the behaviour of the odd fan, but context is required here, whatever we think of the talent that is Carlos Carniero.

[ws3]

I think when people question why Money finds the need to lambast our spectators and say they are harsh and don't give new players a chance to settle in... here's his justification exactly. I'm sure Carneiro did have a stinker on Saturday, but as Big Baz says, it's his third game in a new team and new country where he doesn't speak the language. For some loudmouth to lurch to the front of the crowd and loudly abuse him and tell him to go home... well, how is that going to improve his confidence, exactly? For God's sake, give the bloke a chance.

Ah, but the fan has paid his money so he has the right to say what he wants, no matter how boorish or counter-productive. Yet Richard Money is the manager of the team, wanting everyone to pull together, so when he says as much he should keep his mouth shut (even if he's right) because it won't benefit the team. You can see the logic in that, surely? Surely? :? :? :?

Can someone remind me what DD said. Not what you think he said but what he actually said.

I was being sarcastic, the lowest form of wit. I don't think DD's said anything bad - but anything he has said that could vaguely be considered derogatory towards the fans has been misconstrued or blown out of all proportion, while any comments praising our support are conveniently ignored.

Its ok but there seem to be constant references in this and other threads regarding DD falling out with the fans. I just wandered what he said thats all. Personally I haven't met the man so he hasn't fallen out with me.

[SheffieldSaddler]

Could not agree more, Registered. When I go to see a film, I pay to get in, but don't consider that gives me the right to swear my head off, talk loudly and generally behave like an all-round jerk. It seems accepted that different rules apply at football, and it's something I've never liked.

Oh dear.
Oh dear.
Give Ian a personality and a dummy. :lol:

[WarsawPact]

I just wandered what he said thats all. Personally I haven't met the man so he hasn't fallen out with me.

He said something to the effect that one of the things he's had to look for in new players, is a strong personality that won't crack under the pressure that Walsall supporters put the players under, when things aren't going well.

[ws3]

I just wandered what he said thats all. Personally I haven't met the man so he hasn't fallen out with me.

He said something to the effect that one of the things he's had to look for in new players, is a strong personality that won't crack under the pressure that Walsall supporters put the players under, when things aren't going well.

And that's it.

Surely that's not what all the fuss is about.

[Stu]

Interesting comments from DD on Ishmel this week;

"Manager Richard Money knows Walsall fans want to see the lightning quick Demontagnac in action for longer spells, but he said: "I'll sum Ishmel up in the 89th minute. "He does fantastically well then crosses with his right foot behind the goal, and every single Walsall supporter here applauded him back to the halfway line."I'm sorry, it ain't good enough. He has done marvellous to get there but he should have set up Tommy Mooney for a tap in. He knows it. We know it."

If he can't work out why Ishmel was applauded then I give up... He was applauded for actually having the courage and the conviction to attack his man, take him on and try and create something, as the other 10 weren't doing much of that.

Granted, he should have done better actually, but at least the lad tried to do something. Nobody else created anything like that for themselves all match.

So for me, it is good enough, its good enough that he actually got there in the first place. Danny Fox would have passed the ball to his left back, neither Hall or Wrack would have had the pace or skill to beat their man and get their in the first place.

And for what its worth, I didn't applaud him back to the halfway line, I tried to pull my hair out and how he messed up the easy part.

*And before anyone says it, I'm not criticising the manager for his comments, I'm just pointing out why Ishmel was given a bit of credit for that... However I'd like to know why he was positive about Carlos yet finds it neccessary to criticise Ishmel, that does confuse me*

[ws3]

Interesting comments from DD on Ishmel this week;

"Manager Richard Money knows Walsall fans want to see the lightning quick Demontagnac in action for longer spells, but he said: "I'll sum Ishmel up in the 89th minute. "He does fantastically well then crosses with his right foot behind the goal, and every single Walsall supporter here applauded him back to the halfway line."I'm sorry, it ain't good enough. He has done marvellous to get there but he should have set up Tommy Mooney for a tap in. He knows it. We know it."

If he can't work out why Ishmel was applauded then I give up... He was applauded for actually having the courage and the conviction to attack his man, take him on and try and create something, as the other 10 weren't doing much of that.

Granted, he should have done better actually, but at least the lad tried to do something. Nobody else created anything like that for themselves all match.

So for me, it is good enough, its good enough that he actually got there in the first place. Danny Fox would have passed the ball to his left back, neither Hall or Wrack would have had the pace or skill to beat their man and get their in the first place.

And for what its worth, I didn't applaud him back to the halfway line, I tried to pull my hair out and how he messed up the easy part.

*And before anyone says it, I'm not criticising the manager for his comments, I'm just pointing out why Ishmel was given a bit of credit for that... However I'd like to know why he was positive about Carlos yet finds it neccessary to criticise Ishmel, that does confuse me*

Don't you think you are over reacting a little Stu? I understand exactly what DD is saying.

[Geordiesaddler]

And on Saturday's showing Mooney would have missed the tap in as he did earlier in the game, what a bizarre summing up from DD.

I'm with Stu on this one, I want DD to be consistent with his treatment of players.

He has publicaly critisised a young player doing his best in a Walsall shirt and that's not on IMO.

I think Ishmel has come on leaps and bounds in recent months and he was superb on Saturday.

Danny Sonner wasted god knows how many crossing opportunities, many from dead-ball situations, while Caneiro and Mooney missed sitters, if we are going to start a post-mortem on Saturday's defeat then these issues are far more important.

If DD is going to dish out first team opportunities based on the need for perfection then more or less every player will be dropped after every appearance.

[ws3]

And on Saturday's showing Mooney would have missed the tap in as he did earlier in the game, what a bizarre summing up from DD.

I'm with Stu on this one, I want DD to be consistent with his treatment of players.

He has publicaly critisised a young player doing his best in a Walsall shirt and that's not on IMO.

I think Ishmel has come on leaps and bounds in recent months and he was superb on Saturday.

Danny Sonner wasted god knows how many crossing opportunities, many from dead-ball situations, while Caneiro and Mooney missed sitters, if we are going to start a post-mortem on Saturday's defeat then these issues are far more important.

If DD is going to dish out first team opportunities based on the need for perfection then more or less every player will be dropped after every appearance.

So did DD only make that one comment? It seems like a very short statement about one player and not a singling out of Ishy over the rest of the team. I could be wrong but I am sure DD said more than that.

[Geordiesaddler]

And on Saturday's showing Mooney would have missed the tap in as he did earlier in the game, what a bizarre summing up from DD.

I'm with Stu on this one, I want DD to be consistent with his treatment of players.

He has publicaly critisised a young player doing his best in a Walsall shirt and that's not on IMO.

I think Ishmel has come on leaps and bounds in recent months and he was superb on Saturday.

Danny Sonner wasted god knows how many crossing opportunities, many from dead-ball situations, while Caneiro and Mooney missed sitters, if we are going to start a post-mortem on Saturday's defeat then these issues are far more important.

If DD is going to dish out first team opportunities based on the need for perfection then more or less every player will be dropped after every appearance.

So did DD only make that one comment? It seems like a very short statement about one player and not a singling out of Ishy over the rest of the team. I could be wrong but I am sure DD said more than that.

Yes he did say more, he said that the Mooney Caneiro partnership worked really well, and that Carlos would have put his chance in the bottom corner in training. So the players who's errors cost us the game got praise and "bad luck" sentiments, Ishy got a bit of praise followed by some critisism. What he said IMO having watched the game and the interview is inconsistent and unfair.

[ws3]

And on Saturday's showing Mooney would have missed the tap in as he did earlier in the game, what a bizarre summing up from DD.

I'm with Stu on this one, I want DD to be consistent with his treatment of players.

He has publicaly critisised a young player doing his best in a Walsall shirt and that's not on IMO.

I think Ishmel has come on leaps and bounds in recent months and he was superb on Saturday.

Danny Sonner wasted god knows how many crossing opportunities, many from dead-ball situations, while Caneiro and Mooney missed sitters, if we are going to start a post-mortem on Saturday's defeat then these issues are far more important.

If DD is going to dish out first team opportunities based on the need for perfection then more or less every player will be dropped after every appearance.

So did DD only make that one comment? It seems like a very short statement about one player and not a singling out of Ishy over the rest of the team. I could be wrong but I am sure DD said more than that.

Yes he did say more, he said that the Mooney Caneiro partnership worked really well, and that Carlos would have put his chance in the bottom corner in training. So the players who's errors cost us the game got praise and "bad luck" sentiments, Ishy got a bit of praise followed by some critisism. What he said IMO having watched the game and the interview is inconsistent and unfair.

Fair enough.

[Bernie]

I know Money has been a very good manager for Walsall generally, but his treatment of Ishmel is bizarre.

He has had 52 opportunities to include him in the starting line-up in competitive matches but only picked him twice. Even in the roughly 10 first team friendly matches that Richard Money has had, Ishmel has only ever been a substitute, often unused.

In reserve matches he is the only player frequently played out of position.

He seems to be only player he publicly criticises for his contributions; wheras he makes excuses for everyone else. I was not at the game on Saturday, but Money's comments do not match those of most other fans, even those from Leyton.

I can well understand everyone being grateful to Money for all he has done in sorting out the mess the club was in when he arrived and leading us to promotion. But how can anyone defend his treatment of a young talented player?

[Stu]

*And before anyone says it, I'm not criticising the manager for his comments, I'm just pointing out why Ishmel was given a bit of credit for that... However I'd like to know why he was positive about Carlos yet finds it neccessary to criticise Ishmel, that does confuse me*

Don't you think you are over reacting a little Stu? I understand exactly what DD is saying.

I guess you didn't read the last paragraph I typed, bold above.

I can see his point fully, Ishmel does need to learn its about having output that can be seen in the form of assists, goals or points on the board...

What questioned me is he didn't seem to realise why the fans were applauding and it was also at odds with his comments on other players who provided far less threat despite having a full 90 minutes.

I was completely ignoring his implication that the fans don't really understand the game by clapping him for his mistake in the last minute. I just bite my tongue and say "of course Dickie, we know nothing." to that.

[Registered Saddler]

I know Money has been a very good manager for Walsall generally, but his treatment of Ishmel is bizarre.

He has had 52 opportunities to include him in the starting line-up in competitive matches but only picked him twice. Even in the roughly 10 first team friendly matches that Richard Money has had, Ishmel has only ever been a substitute, often unused.

In reserve matches he is the only player frequently played out of position.

He seems to be only player he publicly criticises for his contributions; wheras he makes excuses for everyone else. I was not at the game on Saturday, but Money's comments do not match those of most other fans, even those from Leyton.

I can well understand everyone being grateful to Money for all he has done in sorting out the mess the club was in when he arrived and leading us to promotion. But how can anyone defend his treatment of a young talented player?

Whether he is right or wrong will only be shown in the fulness of time. We can judge for definite at the end of Ishy's current contract in 2009 as to what progress he has made as an individual and we have made as a team. From my viewpoint now, it seems he is ready to be thrown in and see how he holds up. I'm sure Ishy knows as much as anyone that he doesn't have too many last chances left and patience will wear thin if he lets us down performance-wise or temperament-wise. But I (like 99% of Walsall fans I imagine) would like to see him in from the start on Saturday.

One caveat I would add is that we don't have to deal with Ishy day-in, day-out. We don't know what he's like in training, how he applies himself from Monday-Friday, what individual instruction DD has been giving him. It is much easier to be generous with your praise for someone who is a hassle-free employee rather than someone who is liable to make you tear your (remaining) hair out. Not saying that is what Ishy is like, just putting it out there as a suggestion.