Aston Villa H 7/8/07

[Purple Toucan Saddler]

Why is everyone judging how the Butler / Mooney pairing will get on when only seeing them play against Premiership opposition.

I do not think it is the ideal partnership, but drop the quality of defence they are playing against, and the result will be massively different.

Butler needs to pull his finger out, or be dropped which at the moment will be good for the team (especially the emerging youngsters), but if (and it is a big if) he can get his head straight again, he will score goals in League one without any problems.

[Duke]

It'll be interesting to see how we use the bench this season - I'd like to see more impact players brought on in time to make a difference, rather than have five or ten minutes poodling about.

I would too and I think that's DD's thinking too.

If DD is intent on keeping it tight and not starting with so much attacking intent on the wings (i.e. Fox on the left and whoever on the right) then I really would like to see Ishmel up front alongside Mooney. We really could kill teams in League One with that option.

Over the course of last season , DD did well with his subs , very often a sub came on and changed the game . This season he has far more attacking options , so that could well be in his plans

[Magic Man Fan]

Why is everyone judging how the Butler / Mooney pairing will get on when only seeing them play against Premiership opposition.

I'm not judging it on that. I'm judging it on their total lack of understanding but mainly Butler's lack of interest. I still think both could score 15 goals this season but they won't do it by playing together all the time. One of them alongside someone with pace such as Ishmel, Deeney etc and we'll do well.

Both will need to be dropped now and again if we don't want two burnt out strikers at Christmas, and at the moment I can't see DD doing that. It was his big mistake last season not dropping Butler when he needed it, I hope he doesn't make the same mistake again.

[scottsaddler1888]

Anyone know what the starting lineup for the was villa last night?
and no i'm not a bloody villa fan :twisted:

still think its funny we had to score their goal for them :lol:
Cant wait for saturday's game now up the saddlers.

:D

[Duke]

Butlers lack of interest is a worry . I'm hearing from fans not connected with UTS saying the same thing , Hopefully its just a pre -season thing and when the season start he'll be ok. If not DD must get rid of him before the window closes and get another striker in. we can't afford and passengers

[Purple Toucan Saddler]

Butlers lack of interest is a worry . I'm hearing from fans not connected with UTS saying the same thing , Hopefully its just a pre -season thing and when the season start he'll be ok. If not DD must get rid of him before the window closes and get another striker in. we can't afford and passengers

Is there such an animal?

[dinarado]

That match showed very clearly our strengths and weaknesses as we start the new season.

We have a very good goalkeeper and an excellent defence. We were able to deal with almost constant pressure in the first half. It is very much to Richard Money's credit that our back four, assisted by the midfield were able to keep Villa to just one goal. The team was also very fit, because despite being given the run around they did not flag, but got even better as the match went on. I think we can start the season with some confidence that we will again be a very hard team to beat.

Unfortunately the weaknesses in the first half were just as obvious. As an attacking force we were poor. The pass completion rate was ridiculously low. We have some players who are good at helping the defence and winning the ball but who do not find a Walsall player often enough with their passes.

It must be obvious to everyone that Butler is no longer good enough for this level. The years have caught up with him - he is already nearly two years older than most Walsall players are when they drop out of league football. If he is willing to accept a free transfer then he should go. It is painful to watch him struggling.

Mooney might still be useful if he can be partnered with someone with pace and flair - but I hope that he does not start any more games alongside Butler.

In the second half we saw very clearly the difference that pace makes to a team.

Richard Money has done a brilliant job at organising the defense. He inherited some good defensive players, but he deserves a lot of praise for marshalling them into such an efficient force. If he can now work the same trick with our attack and bring out the potential of some of our young players then he will deserve to be called a great Walsall manager.

Great post.
Pace pace pace was desperatly needed, when it was well what a force..i echo the calls of never to play the two big men upfront at the same time(without pacy wingers),last night was the first friendly i have seen this season and it was overall a great team performance(as far as friendlies go)..but please please please DD i hope that ishy will be given a chance to shine in that advanced role off the fellow striker..if it was obvious to a bunch of dimwited supporters :wink: surely it has registered in a far superior footballing brain.

I do not look forward to watching butler mooney combination all season..even when it has become painfully obvious to be a non starter..from the ...erm ..start!!
the only way i believe it could work is if ishy was playing the old age favourite 'sherringham role'..otherwise your defensive achievements will be called in to question more often than neccesary.

these were defenders who would walk it in our league..and this guy(ishy) was ripping them apart...dont just give him one game..and it doesnt work drop him till the last game of season...give it a go for 5 matches or so with ishy and any of the other two big men....

i understand that dd is naturally defensive minded,surely he has to take agamble on this kid and let him have a stint in the side..not on the wing(but better than not at all) but along the front man...thia guy in my opinion..hot headed or not...will transform our season from a mediocre one to something with maybe a bit of excitement.

playing ishy will not compromise our defensive strength...please answers on a postcard what butler actually did to help...no direction..no get up and go....well maybe he should and make DD's decsion making for him!!

A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY!!!!!!
A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY!!!!!!
A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY!!!!!!



I hope DD is reading this board today...and hopefully it has had the desired effect.....well i can but hope!!


p.s in ishys absence..try playing anyone with pace along side mooney.....as i was sick of watching the two big men knocking it down or on to empty space!!....


DONE!!!(ramsey styleee)

[Magic Man Fan]

A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY!!!!!!
A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY!!!!!!
A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY!!!!!!

I agree but don't forget Ishy has done himself no favours for being suspended for the first two games of the season which means DD has to try alternative things ready for Carlisle. Despite that he has still been using him in the friendlies and I really do think he'll have a big part to play this season.

[Jolly Johnny]

I also enjoyed last night's match, thanks to the 2nd half!! Typical walsall from last season really, disappointing 1st half and then much better and more urgency 2nd half.

Ince was very good, seems to be up for the new season.

Defence was solid, thought Gerrard and Dann did very well together. Wrack did okay but got caught too far forward a few times which meant the left winger could get in behind him but he did well supported forward.

Midfield was okay, I thought Dobbo and Sonner did pretty well together, even with a slight lack of pace and mobility between them. Some good passing movements from there. Glad Hall came on for Sonko as he struggled first half and the likes of Wrack and Mooney got quite frustrated with him. Fox did okay and worked well with Boertien.

Up front was frustrating. Mooney did his usual thing and Butler made a few runs but not a great deal else. Didn't really link together that well. Ishy gave a lot more when he came on. Caneiro did well to survive the verbal battering he received from the away while warming up (! :lol: ) and when he came on moved around okay. Got bustled quite a bit but as I haven't seen that much of him yet, can't really judge, hope he adapts well.

Based on the 2nd half performance I am quite looking forward to seeing us play against League 1 opposition if we can play like that. As expected, DD seems to want to keep it tight and then bring more pacey impact players on after an hour. Shame we didn't see Deeney last night as it would have been good to see how he faired against their defence. Other than that, bring on the season!

[Duke]

A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY!!!!!!
A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY!!!!!!
A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY!!!!!!

I agree but don't forget Ishy has done himself no favours for being suspended for the first two games of the season which means DD has to try alternative things ready for Carlisle. Despite that he has still been using him in the friendlies and I really do think he'll have a big part to play this season.

I hope so Mark , DD as worked hard on Ishy that could pay big dividends this season .

[Geordiesaddler]

A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY!!!!!!
A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY!!!!!!
A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY!!!!!!

I agree but don't forget Ishy has done himself no favours for being suspended for the first two games of the season which means DD has to try alternative things ready for Carlisle. Despite that he has still been using him in the friendlies and I really do think he'll have a big part to play this season.

Agree and this is the problem with Ishy. On ability, and most importantly adding something that the team hasn't got elsewhere I'm sure DD would love to have him in the 15 week in week out. But straight away he is suspended, and there have still been reported flash-points pre-season that inicate he hasn't learned to control himself anywhere near 100%. He still has everything to prove in that department I'm araid no matter how much we all want to see him playing and tearing the opposition apart.

[Magic Man Fan]

I also enjoyed last night's match, thanks to the 2nd half!! Typical walsall from last season really, disappointing 1st half and then much better and more urgency 2nd half.

It is disappointing to watch but I think it's quite deliberate from DD and it's a good tactic.

Keep it tight defensively so at half time the opposition think 'these are rubbish, we can beat these' then bang, we come out (energies reserved from the first half), turn up the heat when they're not expecting it and do what we need to take the points. I expect it to work very well in League One.

[dinarado]

A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY!!!!!!
A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY!!!!!!
A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY!!!!!!

I agree but don't forget Ishy has done himself no favours for being suspended for the first two games of the season which means DD has to try alternative things ready for Carlisle. Despite that he has still been using him in the friendlies and I really do think he'll have a big part to play this season.

yes your right..hes done himself no favours..i just hope he is given a fair chance to prove what a star he can be...i totally understand dd's postion re games without ishy,i just hope he will give it more of a passing thought once the season gets going...i totally agree with your stance on butler...but there are more options to DD than to play those two upfront with or without ishy,hopefully he will utilise that.however the more realistic option is what im concerned about.

i believe we have a strong squad..add a bit of pace to the mix(which we seem to have..ish..deeney..nichols etc...) then this would transform our season...also enable to keep it tight whilst adding entertainment value.which as a fan i want to see.
I just worry sometimes DD believes that to make it entertaining that this somehow compromises our defense..and if done right then it doesnt need to.if he wants to play fox on left wing..then there is plenty room to have a player that can offer so much more upfront,although he may not track back as much as leitao/butler etc..the gains far outweigh the negatives..as at the moment as most are seeing and have done for sometime..butler is more of a liability.And to compare ishys temper to butlers..the amount of times i have seen butler have a sly kick out at a defender when he hasnt got the nouse to get past him..well basically....

A PLEA TO DD PLAY ISHY !!! lol

[Geordiesaddler]

I would say that if we can get the best out of Ishy, AND replace Butler with Byfield by the end of August we would have all the ingredients for a promotion challenge. Sound defence, solid midfield, counter-attacking pace, two proven goalscorers, and a genuinely versatile squad.

I think that's what's terrifying JB!! :wink:

[Magic Man Fan]

I would say that if we can get the best out of Ishy, AND replace Butler with Byfield by the end of August

It's not dead yet.

[Duke]

I would say that if we can get the best out of Ishy, AND replace Butler with Byfield by the end of August

It's not dead yet.

your getting me all excited again :P

[sj]

Ishy has got a big problem with his temper. At one friendly 9 of our players were trying to calm the lad down. Any old pro hearing that would do a number on Ishy and get sent off within 10 mins.

[Neuromantic]

I would say that if we can get the best out of Ishy, AND replace Butler with Byfield by the end of August we would have all the ingredients for a promotion challenge. Sound defence, solid midfield, counter-attacking pace, two proven goalscorers, and a genuinely versatile squad.

I think that's what's terrifying JB!! :wink:

I agree wholeheartedly, but especially the emboldened bit ;)

[Sadders]

I thought our second half performance was excellend last night, and like syk sports news said the equaliser was deserved after a half of walsll pressure.

Ince - The best i have ever seen him play, excellen on crosses, pulled one superb save out of the bottom corner.

Boertien - I don't think it was his best performance, not abd though, defended well, made a few runs forward, liikes the overlap which will be key to a higer standard off football , which in turn is needed to enable any srt of push for promotion.

Dann - Very good as usual, i doubt will be here for much longer, regardless of his contrat.


Gerrard - Soilid as per usual, just osmetimes looks a little mistake rideen.

Wrack - Played well as a defender, still likes the hoof up the line ball far too much though, if that stops he can be a good right back.

Sonko - Few good touches, don't think he's quite to a league one standard, but im not sure yet.

Dobbo - Lots of his work goes un-noticed, still can't pass for crap, but definetely works hard and on his day can provide some sort of attacking potentcy.

Fox - When fox plays at left back lall he did was hoof it, which in walsall fans eyes was bad, and for that reason got a lot of stick. In a left midfield position he seems to pass it short sharp and quickly. And although isn't involved in the game so much, plays well and looks good when he is. I think taylor going has done foxy a favour.

Sonner - I thought at burton on saturday we totally missed his composure, his wonderful ability to pull of a 50 yard pass. Spread the ball nicely again last night. Does his run around the centre circle job very well. Is likely to be key this season.


Mooney - PLayed well , held the ball up, the usual

Butler - That was by far and away his best pre season match. He passed the ball well. Was on the ball more often then mooney in both halfs. Helped back in defence. Won some good flick ons, to mooney in the second half. And when provided with decent enough service,will be on the scoresheet. From what i've seen it will be butler who will be scoring the goals this season. I don't know if anyone has noticed but it seems mooney flicks on to butler, butler hs had many more chances to score then mooney through pre season. I tihnk the bloke is gettin back to full fitness again, mooney and butler will start %80 of games this season, regardless of if they dont score 22 goals each and regardless of if butler is making 56 runs down the line a game.

Substitutes-
Ishy - What a wonderful performance, i love the way he suddenly injects the pace into one of his runs, you see the defenders mucking themselves. ONe for the future definetely.

Hall - Lead the team second half, linke up well with wrack, butler and ishy. Scored the goal ,which yes he did fluff, but i think it was deserved. Well played halli :wink:

The thinnest footballer i've ever seen came on and ok didn't set anything alight, but did ok and looks quite quick.

Mc dermoot - Wasn't on for long, but looked ok.

Carneiro - I've decided that carnerio won't do much in this country, he chases down the ball to much and just doesn't look like scoring, i just can't imagine him scoring. Has a nice touch though.


I thought second half we did really well. Butler for me was a positive in comparison to the rest of pre season last night. Midfield did well. Go on the lads

[Bernie]

Butler - That was by far and away his best pre season match. He passed the ball well. Was on the ball more often then mooney in both halfs. Helped back in defence. Won some good flick ons, to mooney in the second half. And when provided with decent enough service,will be on the scoresheet. From what i've seen it will be butler who will be scoring the goals this season. I don't know if anyone has noticed but it seems mooney flicks on to butler, butler hs had many more chances to score then mooney through pre season. I tihnk the bloke is gettin back to full fitness again, mooney and butler will start %80 of games this season, regardless of if they dont score 22 goals each and regardless of if butler is making 56 runs down the line a game.

Butler for me was a positive in comparison to the rest of pre season last night.

Interesting how opinions can vary. To me he had his best game on Saturday, scoring a good goal and having some success against two make-do centre halves in a semi-pro team.

Are you sure that Butler passed the ball well last night? To me he was generally very unsuccessful in his passing. While he did succeed with a few flicks nothing came of them. He did not seem to be functioning at the level required.

You could put any striker from non-league football into the Walsall team and he would win a few flicks and make some reasonable passes, but that would not mean that he would be able to hold down a place in the side. It is not enough just to do a few good things now and again, players have to make a real impact on the game or they will not get picked.

Can you really say that Butler had much influence on the game? I would say that Ince, Boertien, Dann, Gerrard, Wrack, Sonner, Dobson, Mooney, Hall, Demontagnac, and Sillah were all much more important to our performance last night.

[Magic Man Fan]

Butler - That was by far and away his best pre season match. He passed the ball well. Was on the ball more often then mooney in both halfs. Helped back in defence. Won some good flick ons, to mooney in the second half. And when provided with decent enough service,will be on the scoresheet. From what i've seen it will be butler who will be scoring the goals this season. I don't know if anyone has noticed but it seems mooney flicks on to butler, butler hs had many more chances to score then mooney through pre season. I tihnk the bloke is gettin back to full fitness again, mooney and butler will start %80 of games this season, regardless of if they dont score 22 goals each and regardless of if butler is making 56 runs down the line a game.

Butler for me was a positive in comparison to the rest of pre season last night.

Interesting how opinions can vary. To me he had his best game on Saturday, scoring a good goal and having some success against two make-do centre halves in a semi-pro team.

Are you sure that Butler passed the ball well last night? To me he was generally very unsuccessful in his passing. While he did succeed with a few flicks nothing came of them. He did not seem to be functioning at the level required.

You could put any striker from non-league football into the Walsall team and he would win a few flicks and make some reasonable passes, but that would not mean that he would be able to hold down a place in the side. It is not enough just to do a few good things now and again, players have to make a real impact on the game or they will not get picked.

Can you really say that Butler had much influence on the game? I would say that Ince, Boertien, Dann, Gerrard, Wrack, Sonner, Dobson, Mooney, Hall, Demontagnac, and Sillah were all much more important to our performance last night.

I agree about Butler having his best game on Saturday Bernie. I think Sadders must have been drunk last night because Butler hardly did any of what he suggest. And where has this myth come from that Butler is not at full fitness? He's never been not 100% fit, just not 100% not committed.

[danksy9]

Butler - That was by far and away his best pre season match. He passed the ball well. Was on the ball more often then mooney in both halfs. Helped back in defence. Won some good flick ons, to mooney in the second half. And when provided with decent enough service,will be on the scoresheet. From what i've seen it will be butler who will be scoring the goals this season. I don't know if anyone has noticed but it seems mooney flicks on to butler, butler hs had many more chances to score then mooney through pre season. I tihnk the bloke is gettin back to full fitness again, mooney and butler will start %80 of games this season, regardless of if they dont score 22 goals each and regardless of if butler is making 56 runs down the line a game.

Butler for me was a positive in comparison to the rest of pre season last night.

Interesting how opinions can vary. To me he had his best game on Saturday, scoring a good goal and having some success against two make-do centre halves in a semi-pro team.

Are you sure that Butler passed the ball well last night? To me he was generally very unsuccessful in his passing. While he did succeed with a few flicks nothing came of them. He did not seem to be functioning at the level required.

Butler was S*** when we first had him and he's even S***er now. END OF STORY :evil:

You could put any striker from non-league football into the Walsall team and he would win a few flicks and make some reasonable passes, but that would not mean that he would be able to hold down a place in the side. It is not enough just to do a few good things now and again, players have to make a real impact on the game or they will not get picked.

Can you really say that Butler had much influence on the game? I would say that Ince, Boertien, Dann, Gerrard, Wrack, Sonner, Dobson, Mooney, Hall, Demontagnac, and Sillah were all much more important to our performance last night.

I agree about Butler having his best game on Saturday Bernie. I think Sadders must have been drunk last night because Butler hardly did any of what he suggest. And where has this myth come from that Butler is not at full fitness? He's never been not 100% fit, just not 100% not committed.

Butler was S*** when we first had him and he's even S***er now. END OF STORY :evil:

[Mr Sid]

The problem was that in the 1st half neither Mooney or Butler didn't have any service last night as Sonko had a stinker and Fox couldn't put a cross over to save his life. Once Hall came on he started to link the play well and create chances but neither Mooney or Butler had much time on the pitch after this point as they were substituted. Maybe we should judge them once they have some chances.

[Magic Man Fan]

The problem was that in the 1st half neither Mooney or Butler didn't have any service last night as Sonko had a stinker and Fox couldn't put a cross over to save his life. Once Hall came on he started to link the play well and create chances but neither Mooney or Butler had much time on the pitch after this point as they were substituted. Maybe we should judge them once they have some chances.

He had plenty of chances at the end of last season.

I like Butler, I want to see him succeed but I don't think he himself wants to succeed. He could at least put himself around a bit without scoring like he did for most of last season and Mooney has so far for us. I've seen none of that from Butler so far.

[coxy_saddler]

I thought it was a really good friendly to be honest, probably the best I've seen, Villa didnt play a bunch of first teamer only willing to stroll round the park, they played their hungry players, some of which looked very decent, notably the left winger.

The 2nd half was particularly enjoyable.

You can see Villas problems are similar to ours in a way, in scoring goals, they should have destroyed us in the first half, but didn't.

Ishy must start when he's back from his ban, was a bit more impressed with carneiro, although I think he will win us a lot of free kicks with his simulation.

His dive last night edge of the box.. :lol: Never did he get fouled on that one..He must practise it :D

[WFC_Rob]

I got a few things from watching last night's game.

First of all, as others have said, I think Ishmel has to play a significant part this season. He's the only natural attacking outlet we have in midfield, which could prove crucial with us having next to no pace up front. Add to that the fact that his crossing ability is excellent (see Hall's goal) and Mooney should definitely profit from Ishmel being on the pitch.

In development of the Ishmel point above, I think we could succeed playing 4-5-1. I thought Fox looked very good last night when he came inside a bit more in the second half and pushed firther forward. He'll have shots from distance, which adds something to the side which Sonner and Dobson don't give us. This system frees up space for Ishmel to slot in on the left. Having seen last night's performance, I don't see Mooney and Butler/Carneiro as being a necessity as Mooney does the same job as the other two, but better. There were a few times in the first half last night where Butler and Mooney looked to be getting in eachothers way rather than linking up well as a partnership. If that's going to be the case, we're probably better off adding an attacking outlet to the midfield.

Also, I don't know if this has already been mentioned (it probably has going by previous rants), but Villa had a few players playing last night who I'd never heard of, but looked quite handy. There's surely a way we could get one or two of those on loan should the opportunity arise. Osbourne in the middle of the park looked a class above last night. He ran the game in the first half and didn't stop running for the whole game. Dobson, Sonner, Butler and Mooney all had a go at knocking him off the ball, but he merely brushed them aside. He might be too good for us, but if he's not going to be near their first team, I'd love to see us borrow him for a month or two.

[WarsawPact]

Sky footage:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2plwy_walsall-v-aston-villa-070807-ssn-ma_sport

Look out for the Walsall fan whose goal celebrations were cut rather short (bottom left of screen).

[Jolly Johnny]

Sky footage:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2plwy_walsall-v-aston-villa-070807-ssn-ma_sport

Look out for the Walsall fan whose goal celebrations were cut rather short (bottom left of screen).

All I can say for that poor chap is OUCH!! Good to see the action from a bit closer (we were nearer the other end for this game) and it shows how well Ince did. Thought the presenter said Walsall with a bit of a patronising voice :roll: !