Kidderminster H (A) 31/07/07

[tinned]

Interesting to read DD's comments that he was happy with the way we defended because it's hard to defend against teams that attack with pace.


Mmmmm :?

[big baz 1]

Maybe if dd was to drop butts that would give him the kick up the **** he needs.

[philthesaddler]

Interesting to read DD's comments that he was happy with the way we defended because it's hard to defend against teams that attack with pace.


Mmmmm :?

:lol:

Irony of Ironies!

Spencer Weir Daley anyone?

[Stu]

Interesting to read DD's comments that he was happy with the way we defended because it's hard to defend against teams that attack with pace.


Mmmmm :?

::):

Irony of Ironies!

Spencer Weir Daley anyone?

To be honest, just using pace down the flanks would make a difference, its breaking with pace thats difficult to defend.

I know folk say that we had no pace last season, and on the whole we didn't, however we did look dangerous when we introduced Harper into the team and its also fairly common knowledge that the higher you up the league, the more pace becomes important.

I'm a bit surprised that Fox appears to be playing on the left if Sonko is left footed... I'd have thought him on the left and Hall on the right, although Hall isn't the paciest in the world either.

I don't think we'll be able to rely on being organised and efficient this year, as the defenders will be better, the standard will be better and teams will be organised better. We've got to be a bit more potent and dangerous.

On a side note, did Constable play for them last night? If so, how did he do?

[Duke]

Interesting to read DD's comments that he was happy with the way we defended because it's hard to defend against teams that attack with pace.


Mmmmm :?

We'll have plenty of pace , its appears most of our attacks will come from the flanks , much different from last season .Its interesting to see that young Nichols has played on the right wing when used this pre season.

Thats the main reason i don't think a Butler/ Mooney partnership will work , we need that little bit of extra pace Carnerio will bring.

[Stu]

Interesting to read DD's comments that he was happy with the way we defended because it's hard to defend against teams that attack with pace.


Mmmmm :?

We'll have plenty of pace , its appears most of our attacks will come from the flanks , much different from last season .Its interesting to see that young Nichols has played on the right wing when used this pre season.

Thats the main reason i don't think a Butler/ Mooney partnership will work , we need that little bit of extra pace Carnerio will bring.

I think the opposite, you can have a Butler/Mooney partnership if you've got genuine pacy wide touchline hugging wingers. Butler and Mooney will feed off balls into the box with their style, its probably what Butler missed last season, the chance to attack a ball. However if we start with Hall/Fox as the wide players, we aren't really going to be blessed with pace.

Nicholls will be no more than a squad player, as I can't see Money signing Hall and then dropping him to the bench to play Nicholls.

[Pedagogue]

On a side note, did Constable play for them last night? If so, how did he do?

Yes, he did. He was o.k. - nothing outstanding BUT, having said that, he was no worse than our strikers, particularly Butler. :evil:

Harkness and Coleman came on, as subs, during the second half.

[Duke]

Interesting to read DD's comments that he was happy with the way we defended because it's hard to defend against teams that attack with pace.


Mmmmm :?

We'll have plenty of pace , its appears most of our attacks will come from the flanks , much different from last season .Its interesting to see that young Nichols has played on the right wing when used this pre season.

Thats the main reason i don't think a Butler/ Mooney partnership will work , we need that little bit of extra pace Carnerio will bring.

I think the opposite, you can have a Butler/Mooney partnership if you've got genuine pacy wide touchline hugging wingers. Butler and Mooney will feed off balls into the box with their style, its probably what Butler missed last season, the chance to attack a ball. However if we start with Hall/Fox as the wide players, we aren't really going to be blessed with pace.

Nicholls will be no more than a squad player, as I can't see Money signing Hall and then dropping him to the bench to play Nicholls.

not suggesting Nicholls will start , just pointing DD is trying other options.

[Bernie]

I'm a bit surprised that Fox appears to be playing on the left if Sonko is left footed... I'd have thought him on the left and Hall on the right, although Hall isn't the paciest in the world either.

DD obviously greatly admires Fox. Last season he started 49 matches - was never dropped, never on the bench, and very rarely if ever was he substituted. He was the most used player, with only Martin Butler coming close. DD had no problem dropping any other players, but those two were certainly his favourites.

In the friendlies so far Fox has been on the pitch more than any other outfield player, DD obviously expects to use Fox as a regular midfielder this season.

Is that really such a good idea?

[philthesaddler]

I'm a bit surprised that Fox appears to be playing on the left if Sonko is left footed... I'd have thought him on the left and Hall on the right, although Hall isn't the paciest in the world either.

DD obviously greatly admires Fox. Last season he started 49 matches - was never dropped, never on the bench, and very rarely if ever was he substituted. He was the most used player, with only Martin Butler coming close. DD had no problem dropping any other players, but those two were certainly his favourites.

In the friendlies so far Fox has been on the pitch more than any other outfield player, DD obviously expects to use Fox as a regular midfielder this season.

Is that really such a good idea?

Considering he's widely considered one of the poorest links last season, and has been considered the poorest player so far this pre-season... NO!

[Geordiesaddler]

The problem with Butler at the moment, and to be honest for quite some time, isn't one of whether the team's style of play suits him, or whether he gets enough service. It's more plain and simple that he keeps missing chances. Maybe a goal or two will set him back on the right track and hone his scoring instinct, but surely playing pre-season games against non-league opposition is what that's all about? As Mooney showed against Stafford Rangers.

To me Butler seems to lack conviction and hunger, and if that's the case no amount of competition for his place or improvement in service will make much difference. I just wonder if he's been in the comfort zone so long he's incapable of stepping up a gear.

Sincerely hope he proves me wrong, because he undoubtedly has the ability to do so.

[We-ARE-Walsall]

Pretty much what i think Geordie,

He is well and truly in the comfort zone, the fans stuck with him during an awful spell last season, not just because of the lack of goals, he really was playing poor, some couldn't see it, some maybe just didn't want to see it, but it was happening no doubt about it.

Maybe confidence is low, and a goal or two could lift him out of it, despite what people think, i want him to do well, i want to see the same Butler we saw at the start of last season, but that player departed before christmas last year, and no sign of him returning yet

[Duke]

The problem with Butler at the moment, and to be honest for quite some time, isn't one of whether the team's style of play suits him, or whether he gets enough service. It's more plain and simple that he keeps missing chances. Maybe a goal or two will set him back on the right track and hone his scoring instinct, but surely playing pre-season games against non-league opposition is what that's all about? As Mooney showed against Stafford Rangers.

To me Butler seems to lack conviction and hunger, and if that's the case no amount of competition for his place or improvement in service will make much difference. I just wonder if he's been in the comfort zone so long he's incapable of stepping up a gear.

Sincerely hope he proves me wrong, because he undoubtedly has the ability to do so.

Agree Geordie , Butler is proven at this level , its all about attitude and desire . hopefully the signing of Mooney will do the trick.

[liamrowc52]

I'm a bit surprised that Fox appears to be playing on the left if Sonko is left footed... I'd have thought him on the left and Hall on the right, although Hall isn't the paciest in the world either.

DD obviously greatly admires Fox. Last season he started 49 matches - was never dropped, never on the bench, and very rarely if ever was he substituted. He was the most used player, with only Martin Butler coming close. DD had no problem dropping any other players, but those two were certainly his favourites.

In the friendlies so far Fox has been on the pitch more than any other outfield player, DD obviously expects to use Fox as a regular midfielder this season.

Is that really such a good idea?

Il say to you what i said to tinned on another thread. DD knows more about football management than you, Just because you dont understand the reasons behind his selection dosent mean theyre are none. You just dont understand them. *sorry if that sounded personal its hard to make that point without it comeing out that way*

[liamrowc52]

I'm all for a good dose of negativity from time to time.(isn’t every Walsall fan) I just think this game and connotations of this game have no grounds on which to be negative,

1. Relatively solid defence against a very pacey attacking force.

2. very good link up play, from defence to attack everyone seemed to pass the ball well and direct.

3. Trialists especially sonko look very decent,, if you consider he is a replacement for Mark Wright. and Carlos a replacement for Hector Sam, we seem to be increasing the quality of the team.

4. It was only a friendly yet we managed a clean sheet, surely that shows disaplin and commitment.

5. Open attacking football, (granted against conference quality) but we are not relying on set plays to set up attacks like we were towards the end of last season, so even though we missed them, at least they are happening and with time butler, and moony, and hopefully Carlos will score them.

Proof with the right frame of mind you can find positives in everything.

^^^^^^^^^^
Good post but, come on, 2 in the morning! What can anyone be doing on the internet at that late hour...........?

Posting on UTS of course :wink:

[Stu]

And this problem with Butler is exactly why I was saying last week and before that our current strike force is not good enough at the moment. We're reliant on him and Mooney producing the goods, otherwise we're suddenly gambling on a completely unknown quantity at this level in the 2 kids and Carlos.

I don't know what is going on in Butler's head, or maybe its his legs, or our style, I don't know. Maybe its the demands of regular football now after having a while out with illness and injury.

Either way, I'm not happy with relying on Butler/Mooney with Carlos, Deeney and Nicholls as back up. I'd have loved to have seen Pesch down here, espeically alongside Mooney.

It may only be pre-season, but Butler has been nowhere near his best since Xmas at least, if not before Xmas.

[danksy9]

And this problem with Butler is exactly why I was saying last week and before that our current strike force is not good enough at the moment. We're reliant on him and Mooney producing the goods, otherwise we're suddenly gambling on a completely unknown quantity at this level in the 2 kids and Carlos.

I don't know what is going on in Butler's head, or maybe its his legs, or our style, I don't know. Maybe its the demands of regular football now after having a while out with illness and injury.

Either way, I'm not happy with relying on Butler/Mooney with Carlos, Deeney and Nicholls as back up. I'd have loved to have seen Pesch down here, espeically alongside Mooney.

It may only be pre-season, but Butler has been nowhere near his best since Xmas at least, if not before Xmas.

He doesn't look intrested in the slightest and in a way seems on his last legs. I don't think peschisolido would have been the answer to an already ageing squad but there's alot of youngish strikers with good goal scoring records out there that we could have gone for or even still can that are still out there looking for a contract

[Geordiesaddler]

I'm a bit surprised that Fox appears to be playing on the left if Sonko is left footed... I'd have thought him on the left and Hall on the right, although Hall isn't the paciest in the world either.

DD obviously greatly admires Fox. Last season he started 49 matches - was never dropped, never on the bench, and very rarely if ever was he substituted. He was the most used player, with only Martin Butler coming close. DD had no problem dropping any other players, but those two were certainly his favourites.

In the friendlies so far Fox has been on the pitch more than any other outfield player, DD obviously expects to use Fox as a regular midfielder this season.

Is that really such a good idea?

Il say to you what i said to tinned on another thread. DD knows more about football management than you, Just because you dont understand the reasons behind his selection dosent mean theyre are none. You just dont understand them. *sorry if that sounded personal its hard to make that point without it comeing out that way*

To be fair DD has explained pretty clearly how he sees the Fox wide role and that of all other players who can play there.

I also think its pretty clear that DD doesn't put as much store in "the starting 11" as maybe some players and supporters do. As supporters we all want to see the team come out of the blocks and set the tempo, but DD is much more concerned with what the score is at the end of 90 minutes. You can find evidence of this throughout his interviews, his philosophy seems to be, 1) we will be hard to break down, then 2) we will contrive to have the resources and the variety within the 15 to win the match when the opportunity arises.

So more often than not pacey, or creative players get an airing later in the game.

That's my take on it anyway.

[liamrowc52]

Better than my point to be honest, It will be interesting how he sees sonko this season as he is quite pacy, weather he will be more of a first 15 rather than first 11 player.

[Geordiesaddler]

And this problem with Butler is exactly why I was saying last week and before that our current strike force is not good enough at the moment. We're reliant on him and Mooney producing the goods, otherwise we're suddenly gambling on a completely unknown quantity at this level in the 2 kids and Carlos.

I don't know what is going on in Butler's head, or maybe its his legs, or our style, I don't know. Maybe its the demands of regular football now after having a while out with illness and injury.

Either way, I'm not happy with relying on Butler/Mooney with Carlos, Deeney and Nicholls as back up. I'd have loved to have seen Pesch down here, espeically alongside Mooney.

It may only be pre-season, but Butler has been nowhere near his best since Xmas at least, if not before Xmas.

Well I take it from being good enough you mean ability?

I don't think there is a question mark against Butler's ability Stu, but I bet Tommy Mooney genuinely believes he will go out and score 20 goals every season. If you asked that question to MB I bet you would get at best a pregnant pause, and that to me is the problem.

As for the other 3 strikers I know you are being cautious because there is more hope than hard evidence to suggest they will be goalscorers, however I have seen enough of Nicholls to think he has what it takes, and I can't help but be a little bit excited about Deeney based on what i've heard. Caniero also seems to be settling in well.

So there are foundations for optimism .

[danksy9]

Better than my point to be honest, It will be interesting how he sees sonko this season as he is quite pacy, weather he will be more of a first 15 rather than first 11 player.

He didn't look very pacy last night did Mr sunshine man

[liamrowc52]

Better than my point to be honest, It will be interesting how he sees sonko this season as he is quite pacy, weather he will be more of a first 15 rather than first 11 player.

He didn't look very pacy last night did Mr sunshine man

He did when he had to run into space and a couple of times when he had found space but no one passed it to him. He cant exactly use pace when closed down all around him. which kiddy did.

[danksy9]

Better than my point to be honest, It will be interesting how he sees sonko this season as he is quite pacy, weather he will be more of a first 15 rather than first 11 player.

He didn't look very pacy last night did Mr sunshine man

He did when he had to run into space and a couple of times when he had found space but no one passed it to him. He cant exactly use pace when closed down all around him. which kiddy did.

I beg to differ but your entitled to your opinion

[liamrowc52]

Better than my point to be honest, It will be interesting how he sees sonko this season as he is quite pacy, weather he will be more of a first 15 rather than first 11 player.

He didn't look very pacy last night did Mr sunshine man

He did when he had to run into space and a couple of times when he had found space but no one passed it to him. He cant exactly use pace when closed down all around him. which kiddy did.

I beg to differ but your entitled to your opinion

As are you Mr danksy9 :D

[Bernie]

Il say to you what i said to tinned on another thread. DD knows more about football management than you, Just because you dont understand the reasons behind his selection dosent mean theyre are none. You just dont understand them. *sorry if that sounded personal its hard to make that point without it comeing out that way*

It seems that I have to explain again why comments such as "DD knows more about football management than you" are so very misguided.

Do you post this on boards about politics: Gordon Brown knows a lot more about politics than you do so why are you criticising his decisions?

You will find that if you get three football managers together, all very knowlegable and experienced, that there are plenty of things about which they disagree. Decisions about which player to sign and about tactics are not matters of objective fact, but matters of opinion. Every time DD signs a player other managers have decided not to sign him - DD has backed his judgement of the player against others who did not want him. They could be just as clever and experienced as Money but they came to a different decision. We hope that DD will be proved right in his choice, but it is not certain.

Sven had fantastic experience but that did not mean he was not going to make mistakes. Steve McClaren has perfect coaching qualifications, experience and knowledge, but most other managers and fans would agree that he has made a lot of mistakes as England boss.

When discussing the England team do you say - Sven and McClaren know a lot more about football than I do - therefore I am not going to question their selections and tactics? I would suggest that there are some decisions they made that the average fan would know in advance to be errors. That does not mean the average fan would be better at managing England than Sven and McClaren, since just because they made mistakes does not mean that they are terrible managers. The best manager is usually the one who makes the fewest mistakes.

I do not think that anyone who posts on this board thinks that they would be better at running Walsall than DD. That does not mean that DD never makes mistakes, nor that some of those mistakes are not spotted by ordinary fans. Of course it is always possible that the fans could be wrong and DD right - and in fact that might be the case more often than not. But it is a well known false argument to say "X is clever therefore he is never wrong."

There is no doubt that in his signings this summer and in his tactical planning DD has made some mistakes. Nobody knows what they are yet, only time will tell. But every manager - even Ferguson, Mourinho or Wenger - makes mistakes every season. It is interesting for fans to see if we can work out in advance what they are.

[Stu]

Well I take it from being good enough you mean ability?

I don't think there is a question mark against Butler's ability Stu, but I bet Tommy Mooney genuinely believes he will go out and score 20 goals every season. If you asked that question to MB I bet you would get at best a pregnant pause, and that to me is the problem.

As for the other 3 strikers I know you are being cautious because there is more hope than hard evidence to suggest they will be goalscorers, however I have seen enough of Nicholls to think he has what it takes, and I can't help but be a little bit excited about Deeney based on what i've heard. Caniero also seems to be settling in well.

So there are foundations for optimism .

That would imply Butler is a 20 goal striker though, or has the potential to be a 20 goal striker. I don't think thats the case anymore, I don't think his game is about goals anymore, its about hard-work, creating for others and putting himself about, or it used to be up until circa Jan 2007 anyway. He has only ever sccored 20 league goals in a season once in his entire career, in fact, he has only scored 24 league goals in his last 98+6 apperances.

Where as Mooney has consistently scored league goals in the last 4 seasons, 19, 15, 18 and 12.

Foundations are definitely there, and Nicholls/Deeney have potential and promise... I'm wary of relying on them too early though, as if it doesn't happen for them it could cause more harm than good as we've seen many a time.

[philthesaddler]

Personally I think we have one of the best defences in the league, Weston, Roper, Dann, and Boertian could probably walk in to 99% of the teams at this level.

In Nicholls and Ish we have two of the most pacey and exciting wingers in the league - but we wont use them enough.

In central midfield, we are weak, but what do you expect when you lose your 13 goal leading scoring, leading assist maker, player of the season and only bring in one central midfield whos ability could be questioned.

Upfront we have little pace. Mooney will be useful but I think he'll tire easily. Carneiro, simply didnt convince me on his showing against the blues, but I remain open minded, at the end of the day, he was free so lets not expect miracles.

Bonser has annoyed me this summer [surprise surprise] he said we'd be excited by our strike force, well, quite frankly, I don't think anyone is excited by one of the slowest strike forces I've ever seen us employ, even Hector Sam could shift a little bit, kevin James had a bit of pace etc.

So, I believe our problems will lie in going forward, we dont have enough pace and watching us play without Nicholls or Ish in the team will be very very boring!

[Pedagogue]

It seems that I have to explain again why comments such as "DD knows more about football management than you" are so very misguided.

Do you post this on boards about politics: Gordon Brown knows a lot more about politics than you do so why are you criticising his decisions?

You will find that if you get three football managers together, all very knowlegable and experienced, that there are plenty of things about which they disagree. Decisions about which player to sign and about tactics are not matters of objective fact, but matters of opinion. Every time DD signs a player other managers have decided not to sign him - DD has backed his judgement of the player against others who did not want him. They could be just as clever and experienced as Money but they came to a different decision. We hope that DD will be proved right in his choice, but it is not certain.

Sven had fantastic experience but that did not mean he was not going to make mistakes. Steve McClaren has perfect coaching qualifications, experience and knowledge, but most other managers and fans would agree that he has made a lot of mistakes as England boss.

When discussing the England team do you say - Sven and McClaren know a lot more about football than I do - therefore I am not going to question their selections and tactics? I would suggest that there are some decisions they made that the average fan would know in advance to be errors. That does not mean the average fan would be better at managing England than Sven and McClaren, since just because they made mistakes does not mean that they are terrible managers. The best manager is usually the one who makes the fewest mistakes.

I do not think that anyone who posts on this board thinks that they would be better at running Walsall than DD. That does not mean that DD never makes mistakes, nor that some of those mistakes are not spotted by ordinary fans. Of course it is always possible that the fans could be wrong and DD right - and in fact that might be the case more often than not. But it is a well known false argument to say "X is clever therefore he is never wrong."

There is no doubt that in his signings this summer and in his tactical planning DD has made some mistakes. Nobody knows what they are yet, only time will tell. But every manager - even Ferguson, Mourinho or Wenger - makes mistakes every season. It is interesting for fans to see if we can work out in advance what they are.

Absolutely spot on, Bernie. I'm delighted to have Dicky Dosh as our manager. He did a superb job in pulling the club out of free-fall into the Conference and righting the fundamental wrongs, inflicted on the club by that useless fat clown, who allegedly did the job for nearly two disastrous seasons. However, that doesn't mean to say that I think that he is never wrong - to the extent of stubbornness, at times.

To use analogies from different walks of life - do you have to be a cordon-bleu chef (sorry, Gary!) to know if a meal is badly prepared/cooked? Of course not. Do you have to have a degree in mechanical engineering to know that there is something wrong with your car? Similarly, you don't need a UEFA Pro Coaching Licence to see when a player or team is playing badly.

[liamrowc52]

Il say to you what i said to tinned on another thread. DD knows more about football management than you, Just because you dont understand the reasons behind his selection dosent mean theyre are none. You just dont understand them. *sorry if that sounded personal its hard to make that point without it comeing out that way*

It seems that I have to explain again why comments such as "DD knows more about football management than you" are so very misguided.

Do you post this on boards about politics: Gordon Brown knows a lot more about politics than you do so why are you criticising his decisions?

You will find that if you get three football managers together, all very knowlegable and experienced, that there are plenty of things about which they disagree. Decisions about which player to sign and about tactics are not matters of objective fact, but matters of opinion. Every time DD signs a player other managers have decided not to sign him - DD has backed his judgement of the player against others who did not want him. They could be just as clever and experienced as Money but they came to a different decision. We hope that DD will be proved right in his choice, but it is not certain.

Sven had fantastic experience but that did not mean he was not going to make mistakes. Steve McClaren has perfect coaching qualifications, experience and knowledge, but most other managers and fans would agree that he has made a lot of mistakes as England boss.

When discussing the England team do you say - Sven and McClaren know a lot more about football than I do - therefore I am not going to question their selections and tactics? I would suggest that there are some decisions they made that the average fan would know in advance to be errors. That does not mean the average fan would be better at managing England than Sven and McClaren, since just because they made mistakes does not mean that they are terrible managers. The best manager is usually the one who makes the fewest mistakes.

I do not think that anyone who posts on this board thinks that they would be better at running Walsall than DD. That does not mean that DD never makes mistakes, nor that some of those mistakes are not spotted by ordinary fans. Of course it is always possible that the fans could be wrong and DD right - and in fact that might be the case more often than not. But it is a well known false argument to say "X is clever therefore he is never wrong."

There is no doubt that in his signings this summer and in his tactical planning DD has made some mistakes. Nobody knows what they are yet, only time will tell. But every manager - even Ferguson, Mourinho or Wenger - makes mistakes every season. It is interesting for fans to see if we can work out in advance what they are.

The Gordan brown analergy makes perfect sense, and has probably changed my opinion. In that respect you are right.

But I would encourage people to make judgements on tactical mistakes and selection mistakes once they have grounds on which to do so, not that im trying to dictate anyones opinon. But i would advise against it because it breads negativity and negativty can produce more mistakes. especally in confidance players like Ince or Gerrard or Roper.

In my above point i didnt mean ''i think all DD discions are right, because he knows more about football than us'', simply he would have his own reasons for certain selections, and tactics. And we should wait and see if they work before predicting them to fail. thoughts?

[Stu]

In Nicholls and Ish we have two of the most pacey and exciting wingers in the league - but we wont use them enough.

Bonser has annoyed me this summer [surprise surprise] he said we'd be excited by our strike force, well, quite frankly, I don't think anyone is excited by one of the slowest strike forces I've ever seen us employ, even Hector Sam could shift a little bit, kevin James had a bit of pace etc.

Taking issue with those two comments

1) Nicholls is not one of the most exciting wingers in the league at all, we don't even know if he is a winger. He is nothing more than a young lad who has played up front for his club, then out on the wing for a conference club.

2) You don't know who Bonser was talking about at the time, you don't know who we've missed out on this summer. Maybe Bonser should have kept schtum until the ink was on the contract, thats the only criticism. You can't blame him for deals falling down, which is quite clearly whats happened.