Darlington (H) League Saturday 26/8/06

[Magic Man Fan]

Feel free to pinch bits out of my posts anytime you like mate :D

I only ever skim through the match thread before posting, as I want to see how my opinions compare to others.

Great minds...:P

[We-ARE-Walsall]

Feel free to pinch bits out of my posts anytime you like mate :D

I only ever skim through the match thread before posting, as I want to see how my opinions compare to others.

Great minds...:P

Don't worry i was doing a UTS match report style thing, talking about a game i hadn't been to :D

[Magic Man Fan]

Feel free to pinch bits out of my posts anytime you like mate :D

I only ever skim through the match thread before posting, as I want to see how my opinions compare to others.

Great minds...:P

Don't worry i was doing a UTS match report style thing, talking about a game i hadn't been to :D

:lol:

[Exile]

Feel free to pinch bits out of my posts anytime you like mate :D

I only ever skim through the match thread before posting, as I want to see how my opinions compare to others.

Great minds...:P

Don't worry i was doing a UTS match report style thing, talking about a game i hadn't been to :D

:lol:

:lol: :lol:

Let's get a new section, call it "your report" and then do nothing. :wink:

[Registered Saddler]

I think with Dobbo back, and maybe Bedeau to give us another option up front there will be a destructive win in the pipeline in the nest few weeks.
I fancy Grimsby who are woeful, or bottom placed Macclesfield to be favourites for a right wallopping as a warm up for the Bolton game.
Also Swindon play on friday this week, so if they fail to win we will know that a win over Barnet will be enough to send us top.

DD has been pretty much spot on with virtually everything he's done since deciding to jet over from Down Under for his interview with JB. Therefore I can only presume that he's saving up the (in your words) destructive win for the Tuesday night next month when we visit Gay Meadow.

[dler]

Five pages thus far. And we won. I thought we only posted when it was bad news. Zippy?

[geoffwhiting]

Five pages thus far. And we won. I thought we only posted when it was bad news. Zippy?

dler, I was tempted to post the same when there were only four pages of comment.

Just proves we don't only post when we want to complain. :D

[Exile]

A home win against what was, on paper, quality opposition, and there's only 126 posts on the match thread? Some people only come on here to have a moan. :wink:

[We-ARE-Walsall]

A home win against what was, on paper, quality opposition, and there's only 126 posts on the match thread? Some people only come on here to have a moan. :wink:

Predictable

[Duke]

I really wish people would stop nit-picking over individuals and start seeing the bigger picture - its a team game.

In other words , stop moaning and get behind the lads :wink:

[Neil Ravenscroft]

Sorry, Gary, but until he learns to trap a ball (at the moment he doesn't look like he can trap a bag of cement - he took one yesterday that bounced 10 yards away from him), and learn to make runs OFF the ball properly, taking defenders away, he'll be of limited value.

As a footballer, he's just nowhere in the same class as Sam or Butler, at the moment.

Neil

Ian Wright had the same problem when he started at Palarse. JC is still young has alot to learn, he also was only training twice a week this time last season. JC can and will score goals for us . I guess Neil you not see him play at Swansea last in the LDV , Blackpool at home. I feel he is out most dangerous forward we have got, he may not have the ability of the like of Sam and Butler but that will come given time

I'm not saying he won't, but I can't see him as a replacement for Sam in the team, as he's a different kind of player and it annoys me that people keep saying he should be in. He plays off the shoulder of the last defender, just as Butler does. That means the only way to break down the defence is the accurate pass down the channel for them to run on to, unless Butler drops deep, which is wasting his best talents. Fangueiro, when he went up front with Butler was dropping off too deep, making it more a 4 5 1 than a 4 4 2, so we were dependent on midfielders joining and none of them have the pace (except Dobson, who was missing).

Sam when he came on was dropping off 10 or 15, pulling one of the centre backs with him and opening up the space for Butler to exploit, or the wingers to run into. That's a specialist role and one Constable just doesn't fit. That's why I keep saying he should be Butler's understudy NOT a replacement for Sam. At the moment, Sam is our only option for that role, which is why he keeps wanting to try others there, such as Demontagnac on occasion.

[Geordiesaddler]

I really wish people would stop nit-picking over individuals and start seeing the bigger picture - its a team game.

In other words , stop moaning and get behind the lads :wink:

Exactly!!

I am now a happy clapper again, just like I was under Colin Lee.
Zippy and the moaners can feck off down the Wolves.

[Duke]

I really wish people would stop nit-picking over individuals and start seeing the bigger picture - its a team game.

In other words , stop moaning and get behind the lads :wink:

Exactly!!

I am now a happy clapper again, just like I was under Colin Lee.
Zippy and the moaners can feck off down the Wolves.

here here

UP THE SUPER SADDLERS

[derbysaddler]

Does seem a tendancy to pick fault at the side at the moment, but come on ,we are second!.

It wasn't the greatest of games true. But considering Darlington were meant to be one of the heavy weights in this division I thought they were bog standard. We never looked like conceding, and Joachim was kept quiet all game.

Pead looked an interesting option in midfield, but the return of Dobson will improve the side even more. Butlers workrate again was excellent, Roper did all the dirty jobs and kept things in order.


The side still looks like it has more to give, we will get better than this. As Geordie saddler said, this side is going to give someone a right thrashing soon. Its on the cards.

[geoffwhiting]

Sorry, Gary, but until he learns to trap a ball (at the moment he doesn't look like he can trap a bag of cement - he took one yesterday that bounced 10 yards away from him), and learn to make runs OFF the ball properly, taking defenders away, he'll be of limited value.

As a footballer, he's just nowhere in the same class as Sam or Butler, at the moment.

Neil

Ian Wright had the same problem when he started at Palarse. JC is still young has alot to learn, he also was only training twice a week this time last season. JC can and will score goals for us . I guess Neil you not see him play at Swansea last in the LDV , Blackpool at home. I feel he is out most dangerous forward we have got, he may not have the ability of the like of Sam and Butler but that will come given time

I'm not saying he won't, but I can't see him as a replacement for Sam in the team, as he's a different kind of player and it annoys me that people keep saying he should be in. He plays off the shoulder of the last defender, just as Butler does. That means the only way to break down the defence is the accurate pass down the channel for them to run on to, unless Butler drops deep, which is wasting his best talents. Fangueiro, when he went up front with Butler was dropping off too deep, making it more a 4 5 1 than a 4 4 2, so we were dependent on midfielders joining and none of them have the pace (except Dobson, who was missing).

Sam when he came on was dropping off 10 or 15, pulling one of the centre backs with him and opening up the space for Butler to exploit, or the wingers to run into. That's a specialist role and one Constable just doesn't fit. That's why I keep saying he should be Butler's understudy NOT a replacement for Sam. At the moment, Sam is our only option for that role, which is why he keeps wanting to try others there, such as Demontagnac on occasion.

All spot on Neil, that's why DD brought Sam on. Stu says he saw nothing from Sam, which really surprises me because Stu is usually one of the most observant posters on here, but to me the reason and the outcome were obvious from the moment he ran out on the pitch.

[Stu]

Geoff, the reason behind my seeing no change from Sam was because there was no change in possession.

I don't deny Sam holds the ball well and links play, but his introduction didn't take any pressure off us on Saturday because he offered nothing.

It was predictable, and went exactly like this... Sam drops deep, ball played into his feet, he plays the ball backwards, we knock a long ball for Butler to chase on his own. With all respect, Butler at 32 shouldn't be chasing long balls into corners. Sam should be spinning and getting into support Butler as soon as he did, he didn't do that.

Further more, you forget that Sam didn't come on for Constable. He came on for Fang, who did nothing in his role. So any difference Sam made, which I don't believe he did, was not to do with Constable's withdrawl, but to do with Fangs withdrawal.

Neil, as for comparisons with Butler and Constable, at the moment they're not at all similar... I do think that in the future Constable should be primed as a replacement, but a lot of Butler's gameplay is because of the experience he has. Players develop into target man as they get clever in the head, not because of a style of play.

Currently, they're both different players. Butler holds a ball up, brings others into play. Constable should be used to work the channels, which is not what you want your 32 year old target man doing.

Don't get me wrong, I think Sam does a decent job, but on Saturday I thought we looked far more threatening in the first half than we did in the 2nd half, and the main difference was withdrawing Constable meant we lost a bit of pace and energy, we didn't close down their defenders as much as we had, gave them more time, space and possession.

[Magic Man Fan]

Geoff, the reason behind my seeing no change from Sam was because there was no change in possession.

I don't deny Sam holds the ball well and links play, but his introduction didn't take any pressure off us on Saturday because he offered nothing.

It was predictable, and went exactly like this... Sam drops deep, ball played into his feet, he plays the ball backwards, we knock a long ball for Butler to chase on his own. With all respect, Butler at 32 shouldn't be chasing long balls into corners. Sam should be spinning and getting into support Butler as soon as he did, he didn't do that.

Further more, you forget that Sam didn't come on for Constable. He came on for Fang, who did nothing in his role. So any difference Sam made, which I don't believe he did, was not to do with Constable's withdrawl, but to do with Fangs withdrawal.

Neil, as for comparisons with Butler and Constable, at the moment they're not at all similar... I do think that in the future Constable should be primed as a replacement, but a lot of Butler's gameplay is because of the experience he has. Players develop into target man as they get clever in the head, not because of a style of play.

Currently, they're both different players. Butler holds a ball up, brings others into play. Constable should be used to work the channels, which is not what you want your 32 year old target man doing.

Don't get me wrong, I think Sam does a decent job, but on Saturday I thought we looked far more threatening in the first half than we did in the 2nd half, and the main difference was withdrawing Constable meant we lost a bit of pace and energy, we didn't close down their defenders as much as we had, gave them more time, space and possession.

What he said.

Neil, nobody is saying that that Constable should be replacing Sam just yet but it would be nice if you could make a post without criticising him and everything he does.

I went to Lincoln and Plymouth and in my opinion Sam deserved to be dropped, of all our players at the moment I think he is the one who looks like he isn't giving 100%. He came on against Darlington and looked more effective because he'd been given the kick up the @rse he needed.

It's a shame we can't fit all three into the team because as Stu says we need someone doing the running, Butler does, but isn't going to burn himself out and Sam isn't interested in any running unless it's from deep and waiting for people to get in front of him.

[geoffwhiting]

Geoff, the reason behind my seeing no change from Sam was because there was no change in possession.

I don't deny Sam holds the ball well and links play, but his introduction didn't take any pressure off us on Saturday because he offered nothing.

It was predictable, and went exactly like this... Sam drops deep, ball played into his feet, he plays the ball backwards, we knock a long ball for Butler to chase on his own. With all respect, Butler at 32 shouldn't be chasing long balls into corners. Sam should be spinning and getting into support Butler as soon as he did, he didn't do that.

Further more, you forget that Sam didn't come on for Constable. He came on for Fang, who did nothing in his role. So any difference Sam made, which I don't believe he did, was not to do with Constable's withdrawl, but to do with Fangs withdrawal.

Neil, as for comparisons with Butler and Constable, at the moment they're not at all similar... I do think that in the future Constable should be primed as a replacement, but a lot of Butler's gameplay is because of the experience he has. Players develop into target man as they get clever in the head, not because of a style of play.

Currently, they're both different players. Butler holds a ball up, brings others into play. Constable should be used to work the channels, which is not what you want your 32 year old target man doing.

Don't get me wrong, I think Sam does a decent job, but on Saturday I thought we looked far more threatening in the first half than we did in the 2nd half, and the main difference was withdrawing Constable meant we lost a bit of pace and energy, we didn't close down their defenders as much as we had, gave them more time, space and possession.

Constable didn't come out for the second half Stu, I'm hardly likely to have missed that or forgetten it, so there's no mistake or confusion on my part here, why do you think there would be? DD decided a change would be for the better, and I trust his judgement very much based on results so far.

The possession certainly improved with Sam coming on for Fang, and we kept more ball higher up the pitch, which definitely left me feeling more comfortable in the closing stages than I had been a little earlier. I saw that quite clearly, and don't see why anyone else would not have noticed it.

As I've already said, that was DD's motive in bringing him on, NOT to get a second goal but to help protect the lead we had. It worked, so fair play to DD for reading the game so well and making the appropriate change on the pitch.

Neil, how did you see it ?

[Stu]

Geoff, I think we're talking about different things here.

My beef is Neil's critcism of Constable and saying he was ineffective.

We looked far better in the opening 45 minutes than we did in the 2nd 45 minutes... For me the reason for that was because Constable provided far more problems than either Fang or Sam did.

I agree, we looked better with Sam off Butler than with Fang off Butler. And like you, I felt slightly more comfortable with Sam off Butler, than Fang. But I felt neither looked as good as Constable up with Butler.

I don't agree that he brought Sam on to 'shore' us up though, if he was going to do that he'd have just brought a more defensive minded player on.

In general, based on what I've seen so far, Butler and Constable would be my starting pair, they look far more dangerous.

[geoffwhiting]

Just got the E&S through the letterbox, and here are a couple of interesting quotes that will support Neil's argument about Westwood and mine about Sam.

"Chris Westwood went through a miserable 10-minute spell during the first half when passes galore went astray, but he was excellent for the rest of the game, especially defensively, and kept Joachim quiet."

"Hector Sam gave Butler some help to ease the pressure at a time when Darlington were gaining a head of steam. His clever play enabled his side to retain more possession."

Well summed up IMHO, so why are people on here saying Westwood is sh*t and Sam made no difference?

[Magic Man Fan]

In general, based on what I've seen so far, Butler and Constable would be my starting pair, they look far more dangerous.

And if they'd both been as prolific as they normally are then the scoreline at half time would have suggested exactly that. It should have been 3-0 which would have been more convincing than any other half this season.

It's just a pity both of Constable's chances fell on his wrong foot.

[Stu]

I don't think it helps your argument at all Geoff, as I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you in regards to the difference Sam made.

What MMF and I am saying is that Sam's improvement was any improvement on the first 45 minutes. The mistake we made was taking Constable off (unless he was injured, which I don't know).

He (Sam) made a difference in that he was better than the Fang, but that wouldn't take much as I thought Fang was poor, at best.

Just because Constable doesn't link up like Sam doesn't mean he doesn't hold possession, his runs in the channels are just as useful in holding possession as Sam's link up play is.

I'm as fed up with the Constable bashing as I am with the Westwood bashing. I think Westwood is a decent right back, if he works on his distribution, and I think Constable is a better bet than Sam to start matches at the moment.

[geoffwhiting]

In general, based on what I've seen so far, Butler and Constable would be my starting pair, they look far more dangerous.

And if they'd both been as prolific as they normally are then the scoreline at half time would have suggested exactly that. It should have been 3-0 which would have been more convincing than any other half this season.

It's just a pity both of Constable's chances fell on his wrong foot.

Constable could hardly be described as "prolific" at this level Mark. Yes he worked hard, but I believe we'll get more goals from the Butler/Sam partnership thanks to their greater experience and better movement. Constable will probably get there in time, I just don't think he's quite got there yet. I'm not criticising him for that, he's still learning, and he's well worth coming on from the bench, but not from the start unless Butler can't play for whatever reason.

Stu, I'm absolutely certain that DD brought on Sam to hold the ball up the pitch more, because he could see that, until then, the ball was being driven straight back deep into our half every time we cleared it. If Dobson had been available it might have been him, but who else was on the bench that could do that job? DD also brought on Scott Dann late as an extra defender for even more insurance, which was appropriate at the time.

DD impresses me more and more with his tactical nous as each game passes - he certainly reads the game and the opposition very well. He saw an extra midfielder was likely to improve on our first half performance and brought on Kris Taylor, who had a very effective game and he links up so well with Fox down that side. I wouldn't argue with his judgement, he knows the game far better than us.

[Magic Man Fan]

Well summed up IMHO, so why are people on here saying Westwood is sh*t and Sam made no difference?

I'm not saying Westwood is sh*t. I'm saying he's clearly not suited to playing at right back. He keeps drifting in field and kicking the ball out of play. I wouldn't mind him at centre half but I don't think he's good enough to keep Roper and Gerrard out of the team.

Sam did make a difference because he held the ball up well. However he had been poor in my opinion in the previous two away games and needed dropping.

Geoff - Constable's goals to games ratio (starting) wasn't far off Fryatt's last season at the higher level. The one thing he is, is a good goalscorer, it's his all round game that needs more improvement.

Sam on the other hand has good build up and link up play but doesn't look like scoring because he doesn't get into the positions often enough.

[geoffwhiting]

Well summed up IMHO, so why are people on here saying Westwood is sh*t and Sam made no difference?

I'm not saying Westwood is sh*t. I'm saying he's clearly not suited to playing at right back. He keeps drifting in field and kicking the ball out of play. I wouldn't mind him at centre half but I don't think he's good enough to keep Roper and Gerrard out of the team.

Sam did make a difference because he held the ball up well.

MMF, I wasn't referring to YOU commenting on Westwood, but some have described him in that way yesterday/today, having totally failed to see or appreciate (or just chose to ignore) the defensive job he did on Saturday. I fully agree he shouldn't keep either Roper or Gerrard out of the team, they are absolutely the No. 1 central defensive partnership at the moment as far as I'm concerned. Westwood is playing out of position at right back, but is that not because Pead is in midfield while Dobson is out injured? I would not be at all surprised to see Pead at right back next week with the return of Dobbo to midfield.

Nice to see you agree with me about Sam yesterday.

Constable has to be in the squad, he's improved a lot, but I still see him as coming on from the bench rather than starting the game. He might get more joy later in the game with defenders tiring, and if he can get a goal or two that way, I expect his confidence will soar and we'll start to see a lot more goals from him - we just have to get to that point to really get him started. The confidence wasn't there yesterday with that one easy chance that came his way, but if he'd already had a couple under his belt, I feel sure he'd have scored, left foot or right foot!

[Stu]

There's a problem with using Constable off the bench though, which is why I'd start him.

Dicky Dosh appears to be more defensive minded, when he has the lead, he looks to make sure we don't concede and he likes to keep it tight. So if you want someone to come on and slow the game down, keep hold of the ball then Sam does that.

Where as from kick off, you want to attack, you need that goal, and I firmly believe Constable is a better option to Sam. Then bring Sam on if your not getting anywhere and need a change, or just want to hold the ball up a bit more.

[SheffieldSaddler]

Well for me Saturday was an average performance but we never really looked like conceding to be honest, except for an odd moment or two.
How anyone can say Pead did not have a good game I find absolutely incredible! Were you watching th same match as me? The bloke was excellent.
Defence was good, I dont like Westwood because his distribution is absolutely shocking, it really is. I dont expect a defender to be superb at distribution, but I do expect them to find a Walsall player occassionally, Westwood could not, useless.
The quicker Dobson gets back, the quicker our midfield starts to function again.
I would play Butler and Constable up front to be honest. They both seem to cause a lot more problems than Sam.

[Pedro]

Agreed 100% Sheff

[SheffieldSaddler]

Agreed 100% Sheff

I must be right then! :wink:

[geoffwhiting]

Sam makes a lot of things happen and despite not scoring himself, I think he has more assists than anyone else in the goals we have scored.

To me, Butler and Constable together did not create as much as Butler and Sam in earlier games.

It's hard to compare of course, because the chances you make are also dependent on the quality of the opposition. Hartlepool restricted us far more than Stockport, and Darlington restricted us more than Hartlepool. It's not just a case of WE played better or worse, sometimes you can only play as well as decent opposition allows.

The over-riding factor for me is it's DD's choice and the more games we play, the more I trust his judgement. So I'm not going to criticise him for playing Constable ahead of Sam on Saturday, it's his call.