Boring

[shrewsbury saddler]

Anyone else getting a deja vu ? Of more interest is what people think WILL, rather than should, happen. Most importantly, even if the Tories survive the next two years will they ever get terms, even technically a "no deal", which both sides of their party will support? I can envisage a scenario where the UK hovers round the exit door indefinitely, and , in the end, it's leavers who demand another referendum.

[Wragbyred]

Any one see Bill Cash on the box last night, bringing up fighting in two wars for our freedom as his trump card......absurd. The whole reason for founding the EU was to prevent European wars and it has succeeded in this.

Just on this narrow point - it is utter nonsense. Demonstrably so.

The organisation which has prevented European wars is NATO not the EU. For proof you need look no further than the breakdown of Yugoslavia. The EU turned a blind eye to mass murder and genocide and NATO had to step in and sort it out.

Really? Only one word to say - Srebrenica.
Where Dutch NATO troops turned their backs whilst Serbs carted away thousands of Bosnian muslims to be slaughtered and left in mass graves

Yes, NATO did a great job in Yugoslavia

[SaigonSaddler]

Any one see Bill Cash on the box last night, bringing up fighting in two wars for our freedom as his trump card......absurd. The whole reason for founding the EU was to prevent European wars and it has succeeded in this.

Just on this narrow point - it is utter nonsense. Demonstrably so.

The organisation which has prevented European wars is NATO not the EU. For proof you need look no further than the breakdown of Yugoslavia. The EU turned a blind eye to mass murder and genocide and NATO had to step in and sort it out.

Really? Only one word to say - Srebrenica.
Where Dutch NATO troops turned their backs whilst Serbs carted away thousands of Bosnian muslims to be slaughtered and left in mass graves

Yes, NATO did a great job in Yugoslavia

I was in Bosnia recently, and yep - farcial. Think they were expecting air support which never came due to NATO dithering. They expelled the people from their compound and left them to the Serbs. Some of the men escaped through a forest which the Serbs shot into all night, but most were put in coaches and later liquidated. They'll still finding mass graves now, some of the victims were dug up and moved up to 3 times.

[aaaae]

Any one see Bill Cash on the box last night, bringing up fighting in two wars for our freedom as his trump card......absurd. The whole reason for founding the EU was to prevent European wars and it has succeeded in this.

Just on this narrow point - it is utter nonsense. Demonstrably so.

The organisation which has prevented European wars is NATO not the EU. For proof you need look no further than the breakdown of Yugoslavia. The EU turned a blind eye to mass murder and genocide and NATO had to step in and sort it out.

Really? Only one word to say - Srebrenica.
Where Dutch NATO troops turned their backs whilst Serbs carted away thousands of Bosnian muslims to be slaughtered and left in mass graves

Yes, NATO did a great job in Yugoslavia

I was in Bosnia recently, and yep - farcial. Think they were expecting air support which never came due to NATO dithering. They expelled the people from their compound and left them to the Serbs. Some of the men escaped through a forest which the Serbs shot into all night, but most were put in coaches and later liquidated. They'll still finding mass graves now, some of the victims were dug up and moved up to 3 times.

Sometimes it's just too easy arguing with people on here. It takes the fun out of it really.

The Srebrenica 'safe' area was 'protected' by UNPROFOR - the clue is in the first two letters of the name - U.....N.....

They were not Dutch NATO troops, they were Dutch UN troops. NATO took over control of operations from the UN a few months later, in large part because if the utter failure of the UN in places like Srebrenica. Meanwhile the EU just stood on the side lines looking at it shoes.

[aaaae]

Any one see Bill Cash on the box last night, bringing up fighting in two wars for our freedom as his trump card......absurd. The whole reason for founding the EU was to prevent European wars and it has succeeded in this.

Just on this narrow point - it is utter nonsense. Demonstrably so.

The organisation which has prevented European wars is NATO not the EU. For proof you need look no further than the breakdown of Yugoslavia. The EU turned a blind eye to mass murder and genocide and NATO had to step in and sort it out.

Well considering NATO consists of Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Spain and the UK - ALL MEMBERS OF THE EU, I think that EU countries WERE involved.

In my new positive frame of mind and in the spirit of UTS I shall resist any barbs at the absurdity of your argument.

:D :wink: :mrgreen:

I didn't say that EU countries weren't involved. I said that the EU as an organisation turned a blind eye. And it did. Its response was feeble. As usual.

To be fair the EU wasn't set up to resolve huge foreign policy conundrums. I don't expect it to. But if people make grandiose claims for it that aren't true, they deserve to be called out.

Like most large scale NATO operations the bulk of the force in Yugoslavia was American and British. The Americans contributed 20,000 troops and masses of firepower. America in case you weren't sure isn't in the EU. Most of those nations you list generally provided negligible amounts of men and firepower.

Britain contributed more than twice as many troops to KFOR (19,000) as any other nation.

PS - FYI Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland didn't join NATO until 1999 and didn't join the EU until 2004 - so in this context are irrelevant.

[aaaae]

Any one see Bill Cash on the box last night, bringing up fighting in two wars for our freedom as his trump card......absurd. The whole reason for founding the EU was to prevent European wars and it has succeeded in this.

Just on this narrow point - it is utter nonsense. Demonstrably so.

The organisation which has prevented European wars is NATO not the EU. For proof you need look no further than the breakdown of Yugoslavia. The EU turned a blind eye to mass murder and genocide and NATO had to step in and sort it out.

I didn't think Yugoslavia was ever part of the EU? Assuming memory serves me correctly what on earth could the EU have done about Yugoslavia considering it wasn't part of it's union?

Was Yugoslavia part of Europe?

Was there war in Yugoslavia?

Was the claim that was posted "founding the EU was to prevent European wars and it has succeeded in this"?

Is the claim true?

[El_Nombre]

Any one see Bill Cash on the box last night, bringing up fighting in two wars for our freedom as his trump card......absurd. The whole reason for founding the EU was to prevent European wars and it has succeeded in this.

Just on this narrow point - it is utter nonsense. Demonstrably so.

The organisation which has prevented European wars is NATO not the EU. For proof you need look no further than the breakdown of Yugoslavia. The EU turned a blind eye to mass murder and genocide and NATO had to step in and sort it out.

I didn't think Yugoslavia was ever part of the EU? Assuming memory serves me correctly what on earth could the EU have done about Yugoslavia considering it wasn't part of it's union?

Was Yugoslavia part of Europe?

Was there war in Yugoslavia?

Was the claim that was posted "founding the EU was to prevent European wars and it has succeeded in this"?

Is the claim true?

Not by me. But I'd still like to know what on earth the EU could have done about it?

Founding the EU has certainly prevented wars among it's member states though. I'd make that claim. And I believe that was the actual claim made by the Remain MPs at the time.

EDIT: And actually thinking about it, yeah you could argue that that claim is absolutely true. It hasn't prevented ALL European wars but you could certainly argue that it has eased tensions between the major nations at least and has prevented wars in Europe. Considering it's origins are thought to date back as far as the 50s when unthinkable wars today between ourselves and countries like Germany and Italy weren't exactly concrete back then you could certainly argue it has succeeded.

[swampysaddler]

Typical un-elected EU parasites.
All about £££ to them to pay for their alcohol.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42027859.

Quote from Guy Verhofstadt on twitter. All because the Polish Politicians are thinking of the Polish people.
"As in the case of Hungary - we need to activate article 7. Now. Not to punish Poland, but to save its European legacy. Not to punish the citizens of Poland, but to punish those politicians who want to destroy this legacy #EPlenary"

Typical comments from arrogant, un elected dictator wannabe's.

[El_Nombre]

Typical un-elected EU parasites.
All about £££ to them to pay for their alcohol.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42027859.

Quote from Guy Verhofstadt on twitter. All because the Polish Politicians are thinking of the Polish people.
"As in the case of Hungary - we need to activate article 7. Now. Not to punish Poland, but to save its European legacy. Not to punish the citizens of Poland, but to punish those politicians who want to destroy this legacy #EPlenary"

Typical comments from arrogant, un elected dictator wannabe's.

HAHAHA I love the arrogance of this country. How dare they hold out for the best deal for themselves when they hold virtually all the cards!!!!

[Wragbyred]

Typical un-elected EU parasites.
All about £££ to them to pay for their alcohol.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42027859.

Quote from Guy Verhofstadt on twitter. All because the Polish Politicians are thinking of the Polish people.
"As in the case of Hungary - we need to activate article 7. Now. Not to punish Poland, but to save its European legacy. Not to punish the citizens of Poland, but to punish those politicians who want to destroy this legacy #EPlenary"

Typical comments from arrogant, un elected dictator wannabe's.

HAHAHA I love the arrogance of this country. How dare they hold out for the best deal for themselves when they hold virtually all the cards!!!!

Don't you mean the arrogance of "your" country nombre?

[SaigonSaddler]

Any one see Bill Cash on the box last night, bringing up fighting in two wars for our freedom as his trump card......absurd. The whole reason for founding the EU was to prevent European wars and it has succeeded in this.

Just on this narrow point - it is utter nonsense. Demonstrably so.

The organisation which has prevented European wars is NATO not the EU. For proof you need look no further than the breakdown of Yugoslavia. The EU turned a blind eye to mass murder and genocide and NATO had to step in and sort it out.

Really? Only one word to say - Srebrenica.
Where Dutch NATO troops turned their backs whilst Serbs carted away thousands of Bosnian muslims to be slaughtered and left in mass graves

Yes, NATO did a great job in Yugoslavia

I was in Bosnia recently, and yep - farcial. Think they were expecting air support which never came due to NATO dithering. They expelled the people from their compound and left them to the Serbs. Some of the men escaped through a forest which the Serbs shot into all night, but most were put in coaches and later liquidated. They'll still finding mass graves now, some of the victims were dug up and moved up to 3 times.

Sometimes it's just too easy arguing with people on here. It takes the fun out of it really.

The Srebrenica 'safe' area was 'protected' by UNPROFOR - the clue is in the first two letters of the name - U.....N.....

They were not Dutch NATO troops, they were Dutch UN troops. NATO took over control of operations from the UN a few months later, in large part because if the utter failure of the UN in places like Srebrenica. Meanwhile the EU just stood on the side lines looking at it shoes.

:?:

Didn't know I was arguing with you, if that was your point ... just communicating what I had gleaned from actually visiting the country. Apologies for the imposition on your point, whatever that was.

[El_Nombre]

Typical un-elected EU parasites.
All about £££ to them to pay for their alcohol.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42027859.

Quote from Guy Verhofstadt on twitter. All because the Polish Politicians are thinking of the Polish people.
"As in the case of Hungary - we need to activate article 7. Now. Not to punish Poland, but to save its European legacy. Not to punish the citizens of Poland, but to punish those politicians who want to destroy this legacy #EPlenary"

Typical comments from arrogant, un elected dictator wannabe's.

HAHAHA I love the arrogance of this country. How dare they hold out for the best deal for themselves when they hold virtually all the cards!!!!

Don't you mean the arrogance of "your" country nombre?

Nope. This one.

[Wragbyred]

Mmm... interesting perspective that

[Manchester Saddler]

Typical un-elected EU parasites.
All about £££ to them to pay for their alcohol.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42027859.

Quote from Guy Verhofstadt on twitter. All because the Polish Politicians are thinking of the Polish people.
"As in the case of Hungary - we need to activate article 7. Now. Not to punish Poland, but to save its European legacy. Not to punish the citizens of Poland, but to punish those politicians who want to destroy this legacy #EPlenary"

Typical comments from arrogant, un elected dictator wannabe's.

<sigh>

They are not unelected and you constantly turn a blind eye to the parasites that we have in the UK - like all MPs who vote themselves a huge pay rise while refusing to raise the salaries of nurses and doctors, like the UNELECTED Royal Family who get rise after rise after rise, like the UNELECTED Lords who turn up to claim their £300 a day and then go home 5 minutes later to spend our money on a new expensive trinket (or more likely a decent expensive wine, single malt because "we're British therefore we're not alcoholics!").

You really need to do some research, Swampy. I'm sure these people love your ignorance; as long as views like yours exist, they keep winning, keep shafting us, keep looking down on us, keep abusing us and laugh all the way to the bank. As long as people with your views exist - they are laughing and pointing at us saying "SUCKERS!!!!",

But, of course, they are BRITISH so they can't be unelected parasites, can they? They can't be wrong can they? Actually the Royal Family are German - so maybe you should target them.

Such a shame! Maybe consider changing the target of your insults to match the facts?

I'm gonna be nice to you, Swampy, rather than resorting to insults so please check up on your facts - then feel free to insult the REAL unelected (possibly alcoholic? I don't know to be honest) parasites in our own country,

[swampysaddler]

Typical un-elected EU parasites.
All about £££ to them to pay for their alcohol.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42027859.

Quote from Guy Verhofstadt on twitter. All because the Polish Politicians are thinking of the Polish people.
"As in the case of Hungary - we need to activate article 7. Now. Not to punish Poland, but to save its European legacy. Not to punish the citizens of Poland, but to punish those politicians who want to destroy this legacy #EPlenary"

Typical comments from arrogant, un elected dictator wannabe's.

<sigh>

They are not unelected and you constantly turn a blind eye to the parasites that we have in the UK - like all MPs who vote themselves a huge pay rise while refusing to raise the salaries of nurses and doctors, like the UNELECTED Royal Family who get rise after rise after rise, like the UNELECTED Lords who turn up to claim their £300 a day and then go home 5 minutes later to spend our money on a new expensive trinket (or more likely a decent expensive wine, single malt because "we're British therefore we're not alcoholics!").

You really need to do some research, Swampy. I'm sure these people love your ignorance; as long as views like yours exist, they keep winning, keep shafting us, keep looking down on us, keep abusing us and laugh all the way to the bank. As long as people with your views exist - they are laughing and pointing at us saying "SUCKERS!!!!",

But, of course, they are BRITISH so they can't be unelected parasites, can they? They can't be wrong can they? Actually the Royal Family are German - so maybe you should target them.

Such a shame! Maybe consider changing the target of your insults to match the facts?

I'm gonna be nice to you, Swampy, rather than resorting to insults so please check up on your facts - then feel free to insult the REAL unelected (possibly alcoholic? I don't know to be honest) parasites in our own country,

I agree with everything you say about the Lords and such.
But how can you take the Chief EU negotiator serious when he is threatening to "punish Polish politicians", which in turn will punish the Polish people, for putting Polish people before the dictatorship wannabe's at the EU ?
They are demanding that we make inroads within 2 weeks. Now I am not sat round that negotiating table (mores the pity) and neither are you MS but I would bet my last pound that it is the EU holding things up with their demands of "we want "x" amount of billions off you.
And there is no shock really that it is the French and Germans demanding we are "took to the cleaners" for daring to leave.
The sooner March 2019 arrives the better.

[Exile]

Deluded

[Manchester Saddler]

Swampy - it's not a dictatorship.

Do you know what Article 7 actually is?

Here's a quick overview:

Article 7 was introduced to reassure the xenophobic and wary alike, at a time when the EU wanted to expand to the east. In the late 1990s, some member countries warned that human rights breaches were “a likely prospect in the countries whose very recent past had been marred by massive and systemic violations of human rights,” according to a report by Wojciech Sadurski, a professor at the University of Sydney.

To join the EU, countries have to meet rules on democratic governance and human rights, but there were fears that old habits die hard. So, in the Treaty of Amsterdam, which came into force in 1999, the first version of Article 7 appeared. It threatened any country that violated EU fundamental values — defined as “liberty, democracy, respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, and the rule of law ” — with sanctions. At its most extreme, a country’s voting rights could be suspended.

Also it has to be agreed by ALL member states so if one country vetoes it, then it won't happen.

Yes - and when we voted to leave, we KNEW that the EU would demand billions. Why are you not surprised? Maybe because the Remainers told you so (and you ignored all Remainer points) or because the lying Brexit campaign said "We will just leave with no consequences whatsoever".

Think about it Swampy.

[El_Nombre]

Typical un-elected EU parasites.
All about £££ to them to pay for their alcohol.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42027859.

Quote from Guy Verhofstadt on twitter. All because the Polish Politicians are thinking of the Polish people.
"As in the case of Hungary - we need to activate article 7. Now. Not to punish Poland, but to save its European legacy. Not to punish the citizens of Poland, but to punish those politicians who want to destroy this legacy #EPlenary"

Typical comments from arrogant, un elected dictator wannabe's.

<sigh>

They are not unelected and you constantly turn a blind eye to the parasites that we have in the UK - like all MPs who vote themselves a huge pay rise while refusing to raise the salaries of nurses and doctors, like the UNELECTED Royal Family who get rise after rise after rise, like the UNELECTED Lords who turn up to claim their £300 a day and then go home 5 minutes later to spend our money on a new expensive trinket (or more likely a decent expensive wine, single malt because "we're British therefore we're not alcoholics!").

You really need to do some research, Swampy. I'm sure these people love your ignorance; as long as views like yours exist, they keep winning, keep shafting us, keep looking down on us, keep abusing us and laugh all the way to the bank. As long as people with your views exist - they are laughing and pointing at us saying "SUCKERS!!!!",

But, of course, they are BRITISH so they can't be unelected parasites, can they? They can't be wrong can they? Actually the Royal Family are German - so maybe you should target them.

Such a shame! Maybe consider changing the target of your insults to match the facts?

I'm gonna be nice to you, Swampy, rather than resorting to insults so please check up on your facts - then feel free to insult the REAL unelected (possibly alcoholic? I don't know to be honest) parasites in our own country,

I agree with everything you say about the Lords and such.
But how can you take the Chief EU negotiator serious when he is threatening to "punish Polish politicians", which in turn will punish the Polish people, for putting Polish people before the dictatorship wannabe's at the EU ?
They are demanding that we make inroads within 2 weeks. Now I am not sat round that negotiating table (mores the pity) and neither are you MS but I would bet my last pound that it is the EU holding things up with their demands of "we want "x" amount of billions off you.
And there is no shock really that it is the French and Germans demanding we are "took to the cleaners" for daring to leave.
The sooner March 2019 arrives the better.

You just don't get it do you?

What is the UK's bargaining position? We've voted to leave. That's it. Our cards are on the table. We have zero leverage in this negotiation.

Now just imagine for a second that you happened to be born in one of these EU countries rather than the Good Ole UK. Wouldn't you want the "unelected parasites" to squeeze the UK for the best deal? Of course you would. Why would they show any loyalty to us. WE ARE THE ONES TAKING OUR BALL AND GOING HOME BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU.

And for every time the EU demand something, the Maybot and her cabinet of rocket scientists dilly and dally. So they drive their demands higher and higher until they will have to eventually agree to a lopsided deal. And do you know why that is the case?

BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU SAY THINGS LIKE "THE SOONER MARCH 2019 ARRIVES THE BETTER". Does this country never learn? I'm no conservative but the public have put us, and May, in a no win situation regarding this "negotiation" and then apply pressure until they get their will!

[SaigonSaddler]

Blimey, aren't those German car manufacturers taking their time in riding to our rescue .... :?

When's the pound coming back? :?:

[swampysaddler]

All doom and gloom you say MS ?
Read the bottom half of the article, interesting reading.

http://www.euronews.com/amp/2017/11/17/ ... ncoln-site

[aaaae]

Just on this narrow point - it is utter nonsense. Demonstrably so.

The organisation which has prevented European wars is NATO not the EU. For proof you need look no further than the breakdown of Yugoslavia. The EU turned a blind eye to mass murder and genocide and NATO had to step in and sort it out.

Really? Only one word to say - Srebrenica.
Where Dutch NATO troops turned their backs whilst Serbs carted away thousands of Bosnian muslims to be slaughtered and left in mass graves

Yes, NATO did a great job in Yugoslavia

I was in Bosnia recently, and yep - farcial. Think they were expecting air support which never came due to NATO dithering. They expelled the people from their compound and left them to the Serbs. Some of the men escaped through a forest which the Serbs shot into all night, but most were put in coaches and later liquidated. They'll still finding mass graves now, some of the victims were dug up and moved up to 3 times.

Sometimes it's just too easy arguing with people on here. It takes the fun out of it really.

The Srebrenica 'safe' area was 'protected' by UNPROFOR - the clue is in the first two letters of the name - U.....N.....

They were not Dutch NATO troops, they were Dutch UN troops. NATO took over control of operations from the UN a few months later, in large part because if the utter failure of the UN in places like Srebrenica. Meanwhile the EU just stood on the side lines looking at it shoes.

:?:

Didn't know I was arguing with you, if that was your point ... just communicating what I had gleaned from actually visiting the country. Apologies for the imposition on your point, whatever that was.

Just couldn't be arsed to delete/disentangle your quote. Don't disagree with what you posted.

"The whole reason for founding the EU was to prevent European wars and it has succeeded in this" just isn't true though.

[El_Nombre]

All doom and gloom you say MS ?
Read the bottom half of the article, interesting reading.

http://www.euronews.com/amp/2017/11/17/ ... ncoln-site

Slightly misleading here. "The expansion" doesn't mean new jobs it literally means the premises of the park and warehouse (currently used to engineer gas turbines, a very small part of Siemens). There will in fact be a reduction in jobs, however it won't happen through cuts like in Germany. They simply plan to allow it to happen naturally over years by not replacing outgoing workers or offering voluntary redundancy.

Siemens buying a business park in Lincoln is hardly the Brexit beacon of hope I was hoping for.

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... worldwide/

[aaaae]

Blimey, aren't those German car manufacturers taking their time in riding to our rescue .... :?

When's the pound coming back? :?:

Do we want the pound to come back? Weaker economies in the Eurozone dearly wish they could devalue like we have.

Our exports and tourism are booming.

[chunkster]

All is not rosey in the German camp :mrgreen:

[Super Gabor]

Can't believe it's taken me 10 days to realise Manchester Saddler had created a new thread for those missing the Brexit / Trump / ISIS / "Our best friends" debates. Well done. I have some catch-up reading to do. :D

Before I read it all, has anyone mentioned anything about German car manufacturers and the EU27 (i.e "them") needing us more than we need them yet? :wink:

[Manchester Saddler]

All doom and gloom you say MS ?
Read the bottom half of the article, interesting reading.

http://www.euronews.com/amp/2017/11/17/ ... ncoln-site

Yes - almost all doom and gloom. For every positive about Brexit (and I have only seen one or two that may loosely be classed as positive), there are hundreds about loss of business, loss of investment, economic downturns, pound plummeting, share prices falling, loss of jobs and loss of privileges - suggest you read some business websites.

I look forward to you posting some negative links about Brexit; there are hundreds to choose from.

:D

[Manchester Saddler]

Blimey, aren't those German car manufacturers taking their time in riding to our rescue .... :?

When's the pound coming back? :?:

Do we want the pound to come back? Weaker economies in the Eurozone dearly wish they could devalue like we have.

Our exports and tourism are booming.

Not so hot if you are a British tourist going abroad though is it?

Or if you are importing goods into the country?

[aaaae]

Not so hot if you are a British tourist going abroad though is it?

Middle class problems...... :roll:

Or if you are importing goods into the country?

People will look for UK manufactured alternatives. Our balance of payments deficit has been too large for many years now. Will be nice to see it reduce over the coming years.

[El_Nombre]

Not so hot if you are a British tourist going abroad though is it?

Middle class problems...... :roll:

Or if you are importing goods into the country?

People will look for UK manufactured alternatives. Our balance of payments deficit has been too large for many years now. Will be nice to see it reduce over the coming years.

Haha what?! I'm sure you won't reply like you haven't elsewhere were I have directly corrected you but Middle class problems? Going abroad? What are you on about? That's not a "middle class" thing. Working class people have been going abroad for years! Holidays in some Spanish resorts were cheaper than holidaying in the UK sometimes! Clearly you've never been to Benidorm or any of the other resorts where us Brits, who like to moan about people coming here and not adapting to our culture, go for pub quizes and darts tournaments and blue comedians.

[saddla]

Pity that with manufacturing having been decimated during the Thatcher years we are now losing the service sector too.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-42050742
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-41026575