Preston North End (A) League One 24th Feb, 7.45pm

[Tom_1992]

Anybody considered that we just lost to a better, more consistent side who were probably well up for the game after we denied them a Wembley appearance, while we missed a couple of key players?

First away defeat since October and we've got people asking for refunds.

Got to love Walsall FC. :mrgreen:

I've never understood the whole 'refund' thing, I went to the 4-0 Rochdale debacle earlier in the season and I never had/get the feeling they aren't trying in games, just that sometimes we come up against a better team on the day and/or we have injuries to our key players. Now we just have to hope they bounce back against Orient on Saturday!

[saddlerbishoff]

Had to end sometime but this shows the strength of the squad when key players are injured. Compare our squad to PNE to get a reality check - that said we didn't help ourselves really. Deano should have changed things at 45 mins and he needs to be braver on such decisions. We looked like we were strangers to each other in the first half (with 10 men out there as you can't count Grimes) but in the last 20 minutes of the second half could have nicked one once we started to play our normal game.
I like Rico's potential but it was the wrong move to play him against such opposition who were keen on revenge and targeted him in part. Was it a foul on Rico for their goal? A difficult one for the ref who needed the lino on that side to flag. Put it this way if it had been at the other end it would have been a free kick!!
A word on that lino as he was awful. Found it difficult to keep up with play for offsides etc and for example proved his worth by giving them a corner when the ball hadn't even got to the line in the second half. He was focused on his mug of Horlicks.
R.O.D. was superb.
Andy Taylor gave us some added strength and confidence when he came on.
Grimes should go the way of Manset.
Cain was poor again. Has great potential but has lost his mojo - every pass misplaced.
Forde was quiet.
Jordy looks very accomplished and has good feet - looked better when Sawyers came on.
Cook Ok but quiet.
Chambers brothers worked hard as usual.
The introduction of Romaine changed the game - he worked hard and had good movement and every pass was on the money. I can be his greatest critic for not working hard enough usually but he was superb.
In summary we have to have our best 11 out there all playing at a 9 out of ten level of performance to stand a chance away at a club such as PNE with their Championship squad.
A word for Grayson and his coaching staff who obviously instil a plan to the players that says go in hard for a high ball and if necessary fall down flat shouting loudly in pain to get a foul. Fortunately the ref didn't fall for such play acting.

[<Nat>]

Just another game which shows R.O.D will be Player of the Season by far.
'Super' Tom has been a great revelation but compared O'Donnel will and should be it easy.
Result was another of plenty of possession and doing nothing with it again...

[Ancient Moaner]

Anybody considered that we just lost to a better, more consistent side who were probably well up for the game after we denied them a Wembley appearance, while we missed a couple of key players?

First away defeat since October and we've got people asking for refunds.

Got to love Walsall FC. :mrgreen:

You were there then? presumably you were lucky enough to sleep through the embarrassment.
Though how could you with than interminable 'Deano's barmy army' chant that went on unbearably for at least 10 frustrating minutes.................Guys PLEASE change the record!!!!!

Missed a couple of key players? That team couldn't have scored a goal if we were still playing now.....without an opposition!! We should be able to cope better, we had Forde/Cook/Hiwula & latterly Sawyers and created precisely nothing!!

[Rushall Saddler]

Anybody considered that we just lost to a better, more consistent side who were probably well up for the game after we denied them a Wembley appearance, while we missed a couple of key players?

First away defeat since October and we've got people asking for refunds.

Got to love Walsall FC. :mrgreen:

You were there then? presumably you were lucky enough to sleep through the embarrassment.
Though how could you with than interminable 'Deano's barmy army' chant that went on unbearably for at least 10 frustrating minutes.................Guys PLEASE change the record!!!!!

Missed a couple of key players? That team couldn't have scored a goal if we were still playing now.....without an opposition!! We should be able to cope better, we had Forde/Cook/Hiwula & latterly Sawyers and created precisely nothing!!

Unfortunately I wasn't there, I was at work.

Think you probably need to look into the word 'embarrassment' if you feel that losing 1-0 away from home, to a team who go level with the automatic promotion places if they win their game in hand and hadn't conceded a goal in the previous 3 games, is indeed that very word. You said yourself that Preston were certs for the Championsip.

Yes, missed a couple of key players. A central defender who has been a mainstay of the team for last couple of seasons and our top goalscorer would be defined as key players, to me atleast.

I'm not doubting that it was a less than impressive performance, lets be honest we were due one away from home. Just think your reaction was a bit OTT taking into the account the quality of opposition and the players at each managers disposal.

[sid swifty]

Once again, Dean Smiths weak, yet large squad and his managerial inability come home to roost.

One idea, one formation, one way of playing, it's roll the dice Deano and see what you get. Any team with any nous, and Deano is stumped.

Don't worry, he'll roll the dice another 14 times this season and by law of dean smith averages will win around a third of those games...so probably 4 more wins, and we'll end up around 54-57 points.

Genuine question here Phil, if you were made Chairman tomorrow what would you do to fix the 'problem'?

Well apart from going to Wembley i haven't been for years,so i probably wouldn't recognise most of the players if saw them in the street.But taking everything into consideration,reports on UTS,word of mouth from family & friends,newspaper reports,radio phone-ins live score stats etc,etc......just looking at it logically you have to say the facts are their if you want to see them,for the percentage of play the ratio of goals or even shots on target is poor,it leads me to agree with philthesaddler that Smith by his own admission is very stubborn in sticking with his style of play and i've even seen players quoted as saying "we will stick to our playing principles no matter what" .But then again what do i know, i'm just going by stats and hearsay...... :D

[Sadders]

Some proper over reactions in here. An embarassment losing 1-0 to Preston, at the business end of the season, who had won 3 in a row, had their number 1 player back fit, hadn't conceded a goal in 3 games, without our best centre forward, first choice centre back and Grimes on the pitch? Jesus. That's not embarassing, it's par for a lower league football club who aren't expected to fight at the very top. Get used to it. I fear some people have seen some of our away results in the last 3 months and raised expectations through nothing more than delusions of granduer.

I think we can put the 4-5-1/4-4-2 debate to bed. Sawyers plays every week for me. Sure, he's frustrating and yes, when the team isn't performing he can look like he's not remotely interested at all. But it sounds as though Smith got the correct reaction out of him last night. He's been jeered a few times by our idiotic fans this season and every single time he's shown a good attitude on social media and then played well either the following game, or a few after. Lots of young lads just implode there and then and don't return. Fair play to him.

On the 4-4-2 note. Perhaps, Smith, who watches these players every single week see's that when we play with a flat 4 in midfield, we don't play very well. Think to Swindon, where we attacked. Scunthorpe where we attacked, Coventry etc and then last night potentially. Every time a 4 in midfield gets over-run. Perhaps Smith is getting the very best out of a frankly average bunch of youngsters and ageing freebies and the good performances are us at our very best - hence not producing them consistently?

The only time I would say Smith can consider 4-4-2 or Sawyers leaving the pitch, is when it's 0-0 or we are 1-0 down at home after 55-60 minutes. Sometimes you can see us not looking like scoring and something needs changing early. On these occasions I fully agree with Sawyers off and a proper centre forward on. Views from Preston...

'Why on earth did Sawyers not start? He always tears us apart and as soon as he came on you started to dominate. I was delighted to see he was on the bench before the game!'

'Walsall got back into it possession wise and pinned us back for the last half hour or so but I only remember them creating one real chance. No idea why Romaine Sawyers was on the bench, their best player by a mile'

[WFC_Rob]

Views from Preston...

'Why on earth did Sawyers not start? He always tears us apart and as soon as he came on you started to dominate. I was delighted to see he was on the bench before the game!'

'Walsall got back into it possession wise and pinned us back for the last half hour or so but I only remember them creating one real chance. No idea why Romaine Sawyers was on the bench, their best player by a mile'

Those are the sort of comments you see from opposition fans every week. Everyone knows he's our best player. Well, everyone apart from the vocal minority in the home end who give him pelters for not having the work rate of Jorge Leitao.

[Pedagogue]

Everyone knows he's our best player.

You are joking, of course? Please tell me you're joking.

[Tom_1992]

Everyone knows he's our best player.

You are joking, of course? Please tell me you're joking.

I think 'one of our best players' is more accurate, I don't think there's any denying that is there?

[Sadders]

He's 'one' of our best players, but I think a more apt description of him is 'our most influential player'. In the sense that if he plays well, the team do and our best results/performances come when he's on his game. I'd say Mantom is all round our best player, or was, if not him then Forde. Both Cook and Forde can be excellent, but they are anonymous unless we actually involve them in the game, you sometimes forget either of them are on the pitch unless they get on the ball.

Has anybody noticed yet that, unless he's running, or putting the odd foot in that Adam Chambers actually isn't very good on the ball? Numerous occasions recently he has got a head rush and got around the box, only to completely spluff a simple 5 yard pass up. His passing forward is atrocious, his technique is similar to Downing, it's no wonder he replicates a crab.

[SWS1]

Now let me get this straight.

We have a set up that (usually) works extremely well away from home. We use the same set up at home which has generally proved to be disastrous. There is a groundswell of opinion that suggests we should change the home set up using two attacking forwards rather than the lone striker.

So the Manager changes the AWAY set up to two attacking forwards.

Or have I got that wrong?

And (clutching at straws) what's the news on Sam Mantom, aside from "very little"?

[paddy]

More worrying than mantom is what's the news on Bradshaw? Supposedly fit for Bradford, but for obvious reasons not risked. Then no sign of him again last night

Personally I think our season is over bar Wembley, and worry bout how some of the players will perfume come the remaining league games after Wembley.

Playing Grimes supposedly in place of Sawyers last night was always going to back fire. Baxendale should've been given the chance to play in his preferred role

[JonnyOwen]

Bradshaw had a sickness bug.

[ToeJoe Jnr]

Has anybody noticed yet that, unless he's running, or putting the odd foot in that Adam Chambers actually isn't very good on the ball? Numerous occasions recently he has got a head rush and got around the box, only to completely spluff a simple 5 yard pass up. His passing forward is atrocious, his technique is similar to Downing, it's no wonder he replicates a crab.

Simple amswer is no, next question.

He is employed as a a defensive midfielder to break up play and does it effectively in my book. As you said he plays in a lower league football team not fighting for the top of the league, therefore what are you expecting?

[Walsallone]

I cannot understand why AM and Phil support Walsall or indeed any other team. Defeats are part of the game,some are worse than others but you have to take them and bounce back. I don't go to away matches these days but 1 defeat in 9 matches looks good to me. A defeat by a good team when we were severely weakened...3 of our best players not in the team for various reasons.....a very hard game at Bradford....an early injury doesn't on the face of it look to bad to me.
What does look bad is our failure to win more matches at home..this must be remedied if we are to remain in a mid table position and set ourselves up for a real go next year which with one or two signings can happen.

[paddy]

It's the manner of the defeat that is the problem. Ok the result will show 1-0, but it could've been 3 or 4 after 30 minutes

It's a squad game nowadays, and smith hasn't got him a squad good enough to cope with more than 2 players being injured or off form. How long is he going to keep trying to put square pegs in round holes :roll:

[the fickle one]

Bradshaw is back for Saturday, but Forde won't be so I predict Jorde will be on the wing & Bradshaw will be up top :lol:

[Ancient Moaner]

I cannot understand why AM and Phil support Walsall or indeed any other team. Defeats are part of the game,some are worse than others but you have to take them and bounce back. I don't go to away matches these days but 1 defeat in 9 matches looks good to me. A defeat by a good team when we were severely weakened...3 of our best players not in the team for various reasons.....a very hard game at Bradford....an early injury doesn't on the face of it look to bad to me.
What does look bad is our failure to win more matches at home..this must be remedied if we are to remain in a mid table position and set ourselves up for a real go next year which with one or two signings can happen.

How dare you or anyone deny MY support of my beloved Saddlers, I was there last night in the bloomin freezing conditions, as I have been for years and years including Fellows Park in it's heyday :lol: so I am well used to defeats... What I do object to, is being subjected to a display of such ineptness that the team cannot muster so much as one shot on target for 90 minutes! (severely weakened team my arse, we should be able to cope......and at least put up token resistance to a mauling)

[Ancient Moaner]

It's the manner of the defeat that is the problem. Ok the result will show 1-0, but it could've been 3 or 4 after 30 minutes

It's a squad game nowadays, and smith hasn't got him a squad good enough to cope with more than 2 players being injured or off form. How long is he going to keep trying to put square pegs in round holes :roll:

Well said that man!

[Whitters]

Once again, Dean Smiths weak, yet large squad and his managerial inability come home to roost.

One idea, one formation, one way of playing, it's roll the dice Deano and see what you get. Any team with any nous, and Deano is stumped.

Don't worry, he'll roll the dice another 14 times this season and by law of dean smith averages will win around a third of those games...so probably 4 more wins, and we'll end up around 54-57 points.

Genuine question here Phil, if you were made Chairman tomorrow what would you do to fix the 'problem'?

You're wasting your time Tom, I've asked phil pertinent questions before but he's never once answered.
He's one dimensional - he knows how to moan but has absolutely no solutions.
I think the reason he doesn't like Deano is that he sees his own faults in him.

[Whitters]

It's the manner of the defeat that is the problem. Ok the result will show 1-0, but it could've been 3 or 4 after 30 minutes

It's a squad game nowadays, and smith hasn't got him a squad good enough to cope with more than 2 players being injured or off form. How long is he going to keep trying to put square pegs in round holes :roll:

Well said that man!

If Smith had the Preston squad and Grayson had the WFC squad, Preston would have won by more.
Work that one out then....

For the bewildered, what I'm trying to say is that Preston should beat us 9 times out of 10 with their mega resources.
We're in their League but we're not in their league.

[WFC_Rob]

Everyone knows he's our best player.

You are joking, of course? Please tell me you're joking.

Ok, maybe I should rephrase. In my opinion, he's our player. Better?

I know what you're getting at, by the way. He's a bit casual at times, he's been known to shirk out of the odd tackle, and he doesnt shoot when he probably should. His technical ability is head and shoulders above anything else in the squad though. He's the one we'd miss the most if any of our players were out for a lengthy spell.

[paddy]

It's the manner of the defeat that is the problem. Ok the result will show 1-0, but it could've been 3 or 4 after 30 minutes

It's a squad game nowadays, and smith hasn't got him a squad good enough to cope with more than 2 players being injured or off form. How long is he going to keep trying to put square pegs in round holes :roll:

Well said that man!

If Smith had the Preston squad and Grayson had the WFC squad, Preston would have won by more.
Work that one out then....

For the bewildered, what I'm trying to say is that Preston should beat us 9 times out of 10 with their mega resources.
We're in their League but we're not in their league.

I don't disagree with you, they have a far better squad, but I doubt Smith would know what to do with such a squad. I also think Grayson would get more from our squad

As I said in my post, it's the manner of the defeat

[SoccerHQ]

Anybody considered that we just lost to a better, more consistent side who were probably well up for the game after we denied them a Wembley appearance, while we missed a couple of key players?

First away defeat since October and we've got people asking for refunds.

Got to love Walsall FC. :mrgreen:

You were there then? presumably you were lucky enough to sleep through the embarrassment.
Though how could you with than interminable 'Deano's barmy army' chant that went on unbearably for at least 10 frustrating minutes.................Guys PLEASE change the record!!!!!

Missed a couple of key players? That team couldn't have scored a goal if we were still playing now.....without an opposition!! We should be able to cope better, we had Forde/Cook/Hiwula & latterly Sawyers and created precisely nothing!!

Losing 1 nil to one of the best teams in the league is an embarrasment, how did you describe the Slough and Mansfield cup defeats! :lol:

[SoccerHQ]

It's the manner of the defeat that is the problem. Ok the result will show 1-0, but it could've been 3 or 4 after 30 minutes

It's a squad game nowadays, and smith hasn't got him a squad good enough to cope with more than 2 players being injured or off form. How long is he going to keep trying to put square pegs in round holes :roll:

So should the JPT game but nobody was complaining about that smash and grab even though PNE would win that 9 times out of 10.

[Walsallone]

Oh dear a 1-0 defeat to a good team with 3 players out shows the squad isn't good enough. How can you come to that conclusion? Defeats happen-I would maintain that the squad has proved good enough away from home this season. Its at home where there are problems which we are all aware of...Dean must do his best to remedy this as soon as possible.

[paddy]

It's not just 1 game that has showed the overall squad isn't good enough. It's over the season.

We had a great chance this season to make the play offs, with this division being weaker than previous seasons, but the squad put together as we all know & agree (at times) not being good enough.

As Smith has taken us to Wembley though, he'll now be given the freedom of Walsall & a lifetime contract :roll:

[philthesaddler]

Of course this season was a chance to make the playoffs - just as last season was, the problem is, like i've been saying for months and months - Dean Smith isn't capable.

Both this season and last, we've played very poorly at home, and generally across both seasons we've never really consistently picked up points - and thats all that is needed to break in to the playoffs. Just take this season for instance, how many times have we dropped points? How many times have we just not turned up to games? I think a decent manager would have us around 10 points better off - and I don't think that those 10 points I think we could have collected is unrealistic over the course of the season so far - but just look where that would put us.

This is why I dont rate Dean Smith - he's got no idea how to get us in to the top half, he just rolls the dice and plays the same tactics every game, and gets the same results. We're mediocre in the extreme, just look at our stats - W10, D11, L11, GD-1. It's not beyond the squad we have at the moment to turn 3 of those losses in to draws and a couple of those draws in to wins, but Deano just doesn't have the nous to do that.

So, to answer questions earlier in the thread, what would I do? Well, for a start I'd take a cold hard look at whether we have progressed under DS. In terms of league position, no we haven't. We're no closer to the playoffs now, and we're no more likely to break in to the playoffs that at any other time we've been in this division over the past 10 years. We're a lot more stable than we were under Mullen and Hutchings, but I think that has a lot more to do with Stefan Gamble's stewardship and the end to the in-fighting that was happening because of Bonser, cyprus flags and all.

So what do you do? Do you stick with DS in the hope he might one day learn some nous? Or that he might one day understand that if you play the same tactics every single game, you will by law of averages lose, win and draw an equal amount? Do you simply accept that we're doing absolutely brilliantly considering our budget, despite the evidence pointing to the contrary (that we're actually missing chances year on year)...

What would I do? I'd give DS KPIs and if he doesn't meet them, get rid of him, or demote him to assistant and bring in a new manager. His first KPI for next season should be finish in the top 8.

Games likes Rochdale away, Crewe at home, Port Vale at home, Coventry at home, Yeovil at home - games where we have been so woefully under-prepared, naive and poor are whats holding us back, nothing to do with budget.

[paddy]

I'll be barracked for saying this but Smith should've been sacked earlier in the season. A lot of managers have been sacked this season for losing less games in a row.

He won't take us in to the play offs in a million years. But a lot of people are happy to finish 10th every year, and have the odd cup run