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Other clubs who don't own their stadium

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Pascal
 
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Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:03 pm

Hi

I was wondering about other professional football clubs in England that rent their stadium....

Who are they and how much do they pay annually?
and who owns the stadium?


Am i correct in saying we pay £460,000 pa into the club owners pension fund?
I bet there cant be many clubs (and fans) who get screwed worse than us?

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aaaae
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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:26 pm

Can open, worms everywhere...

There is a list as long as your arm of clubs who don't own their own ground and pay rent to an owner.

Some pay more, some pay less. Some pay rent to a private owner and some to a council. Some have the right to other revenues collected on site, some don't.

However....few clubs actually paid for the ground to be built and then have to pay rent to use the ground they paid to build. Oxford United are another club that spring to mind that are in a similar position.

More often the ownership is transferred in exchange for a large debt being written off, or building the ground is paid for by the new owner out of their own pocket.

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:41 pm

You'd be surprised. Leeds pay around £2m per year to the mysterious Virgin Islands-based Teak Trading Corporation for Elland Road and their training ground.

Our opponents on Saturday are supposed to pay £1.2m pa to play at the Ricoh to a company controlled by the city council but are currently refusing to pay any more than £200k. Coventry also receive no matchday revenue.

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:42 pm

bangsection wrote:Coventry also receive no matchday revenue.


Just to clarify, they dont receive revenue from sales of food, drinks etc. but they do from ticket sales, correct?

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:50 pm

WFC paid for the Bescot stadium to be built and then signed the deeds over to Bonser?

why did WFC surrender the ownership of the stadium? and why didn’t the board/shareholders/fans oppose this at the time?

apologies if this is old news , but i am too young to know the history

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:29 pm

Oh lord, you've got to be a wind up merchant!

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:33 pm

philthesaddler wrote:
bangsection wrote:Coventry also receive no matchday revenue.


Just to clarify, they dont receive revenue from sales of food, drinks etc. but they do from ticket sales, correct?

More on Cov if anyone is interested - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... order.html

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:47 pm

Pascal wrote:WFC paid for the Bescot stadium to be built and then signed the deeds over to Bonser?

why did WFC surrender the ownership of the stadium? and why didn’t the board/shareholders/fans oppose this at the time?

apologies if this is old news , but i am too young to know the history


Assuming that you are for real:

WFC was in debt in 1988-9 because a previous saviour of the club, Terry Ramsden, had run up big debts at Walsall (and everywhere else) and went bust following the collapse of the stock markets in 1987. At that time the club owned Fellows Park, which needed money spending on it, but was worth a lot of money as a site for a supermarket. Despite this Ramsden's shares in Walsall were bought very cheaply from the liquidators of his empire.

In an ideal world the directors led by Barrie Blower, but including Jeff Bonser, would have used the roughly £5 million net proceeds of the sale of Fellows Park after all the debts were paid, to buy a plot of land and build a nice stadium on it. Unfortunately, for reasons best known to Mr Blower and Mr Bonser, they decided to build a stadium on land that they did not own. In return for paying every penny of the cost of building the stadium the club was granted a 33 year lease, extendable to 99 years, which gave the club the right to use the stadium as long as it paid a market rent.

The cost of building the stadium used up all of the proceeds from the sale of Fellows Park, and within a year of moving in to the new stadium the club was practically insolvent, losing between £7,000 and £8,000 a week. Some people believe that the club was rescued from going out of business by Jeff Bonser at this point, although selling Stuart Rimmer for £150,000 also helped. Commercial activities, beginning with the Sunday market, and later developing into entertainment and conferences have helped to keep the club profitable for most of the past twenty years. In 1994 Bonser bought the freehold of the stadium and land around it for a rather modest sum, believed to be around £40,000 or £50,000. Either at that time, or later, Bonser put the stadium into his personal pension plan.

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:00 pm

Bernie wrote:
Pascal wrote:WFC paid for the Bescot stadium to be built and then signed the deeds over to Bonser?

why did WFC surrender the ownership of the stadium? and why didn’t the board/shareholders/fans oppose this at the time?

apologies if this is old news , but i am too young to know the history


Assuming that you are for real:

WFC was in debt in 1988-9 because a previous saviour of the club, Terry Ramsden, had run up big debts at Walsall (and everywhere else) and went bust following the collapse of the stock markets in 1987. At that time the club owned Fellows Park, which needed money spending on it, but was worth a lot of money as a site for a supermarket. Despite this Ramsden's shares in Walsall were bought very cheaply from the liquidators of his empire.

In an ideal world the directors led by Barrie Blower, but including Jeff Bonser, would have used the roughly £5 million net proceeds of the sale of Fellows Park after all the debts were paid, to buy a plot of land and build a nice stadium on it. Unfortunately, for reasons best known to Mr Blower and Mr Bonser, they decided to build a stadium on land that they did not own. In return for paying every penny of the cost of building the stadium the club was granted a 33 year lease, extendable to 99 years, which gave the club the right to use the stadium as long as it paid a market rent.

The cost of building the stadium used up all of the proceeds from the sale of Fellows Park, and within a year of moving in to the new stadium the club was practically insolvent, losing between £7,000 and £8,000 a week. Some people believe that the club was rescued from going out of business by Jeff Bonser at this point, although selling Stuart Rimmer for £150,000 also helped. Commercial activities, beginning with the Sunday market, and later developing into entertainment and conferences have helped to keep the club profitable for most of the past twenty years. In 1994 Bonser bought the freehold of the stadium and land around it for a rather modest sum, believed to be around £40,000 or £50,000. Either at that time, or later, Bonser put the stadium into his personal pension plan.

The money returned to the club by the council at this point was crucial.

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:21 pm

Good to see you back Pascal.

Some very good questions, well addressed.

Murky times indeed in the late 80's, early 90's. Bonser with his only ever clever bit of business, shame he couldn't follow it up with the football club. :(

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:40 pm

Bernie wrote:Some people believe that the club was rescued from going out of business by Jeff Bonser at this point, although selling Stuart Rimmer for £150,000 also helped.

The club was on the verge of folding and Hibbit and Taylor were told to get all their personal property off the premises and hand back their club cars before the administrator/receiver/liquidator moved in and locked Bescot Stadium down. Barnsley came in at the eleventh hour with their bid for Rimmer and the club escaped closure by the skin of its teeth.
This information was given to me by someone right in the thick of the club's administration and confirmed by another.

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:26 am

Bernie wrote:
Pascal wrote:WFC paid for the Bescot stadium to be built and then signed the deeds over to Bonser?

why did WFC surrender the ownership of the stadium? and why didn’t the board/shareholders/fans oppose this at the time?

apologies if this is old news , but i am too young to know the history


Assuming that you are for real:

WFC was in debt in 1988-9 because a previous saviour of the club, Terry Ramsden, had run up big debts at Walsall (and everywhere else) and went bust following the collapse of the stock markets in 1987. At that time the club owned Fellows Park, which needed money spending on it, but was worth a lot of money as a site for a supermarket. Despite this Ramsden's shares in Walsall were bought very cheaply from the liquidators of his empire.

In an ideal world the directors led by Barrie Blower, but including Jeff Bonser, would have used the roughly £5 million net proceeds of the sale of Fellows Park after all the debts were paid, to buy a plot of land and build a nice stadium on it. Unfortunately, for reasons best known to Mr Blower and Mr Bonser, they decided to build a stadium on land that they did not own. In return for paying every penny of the cost of building the stadium the club was granted a 33 year lease, extendable to 99 years, which gave the club the right to use the stadium as long as it paid a market rent.

The cost of building the stadium used up all of the proceeds from the sale of Fellows Park, and within a year of moving in to the new stadium the club was practically insolvent, losing between £7,000 and £8,000 a week. Some people believe that the club was rescued from going out of business by Jeff Bonser at this point, although selling Stuart Rimmer for £150,000 also helped. Commercial activities, beginning with the Sunday market, and later developing into entertainment and conferences have helped to keep the club profitable for most of the past twenty years. In 1994 Bonser bought the freehold of the stadium and land around it for a rather modest sum, believed to be around £40,000 or £50,000. Either at that time, or later, Bonser put the stadium into his personal pension plan.


Thanks Bernie - it's always worth repeating this rather shocking story.

The two things about it which are what I really would like to know more about are primarily, why Blower and the board decided to build the stadium on land it didn't own when it could (presumably) have bought land somewhere in the borough for a relatively modest sum and then built the stadium on that; and how Bonser was able to secure the land himself for such a small sum after the stadium was already on it and the club paying rent. Was the club perhaps in such a bad state at that time that the seller considered the likelihood of it being able to meet its future rental payments so small that the present value of the future rental income stream was virtually nil? How much was the rental payment at that time? Presumably not much different to the amount Bonser paid for the freehold - which doesn't make sense. Why would anyone sell an income stream of X for 99 years in return for a single payment of approximately X?

Also - who was the seller? Was it Denglen or some variant thereof? Or was it still Severn Trent Water?

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:08 am

thanks for the info guys

i wanted to try and understand if WFC's current positions (rent and owner issues) is amongst the least favourable in english professional football

its a shame that saddlers fans have been forced to spend most of their time discussing how their club is being exploited rather than talking football

Bonser pounced on WC when they were at their weakest to secure his families financial future.
If it wasnt a football club (and the fans hopes & dreams) he was exploiting you would have to admire his business acumin


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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:10 am

Might be worth asking Coventry City as they paddle to been homeless.

Interestingly, SISU, have argued back that Coventry's rent is too much and the average for this league is £170,000 per annum. Guess we didn't fancy going along with the average.

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:47 am

Bristol Fan wrote:Thanks Bernie - it's always worth repeating this rather shocking story.

1. The two things about it which are what I really would like to know more about are primarily, why Blower and the board decided to build the stadium on land it didn't own when it could (presumably) have bought land somewhere in the borough for a relatively modest sum and then built the stadium on that...

2. and how Bonser was able to secure the land himself for such a small sum after the stadium was already on it and the club paying rent.

3. Was the club perhaps in such a bad state at that time that the seller considered the likelihood of it being able to meet its future rental payments so small that the present value of the future rental income stream was virtually nil?

4. How much was the rental payment at that time? Presumably not much different to the amount Bonser paid for the freehold - which doesn't make sense. Why would anyone sell an income stream of X for 99 years in return for a single payment of approximately X?

5. Also - who was the seller? Was it Denglen or some variant thereof? Or was it still Severn Trent Water?


1. I doubt Bonser and Blower would have had much say in where the new ground was built. They were on the board but they didn't own the club - at the time of the move WFC was owned by a consortium called Davonmanor whose members were Maurice Miller, Michael Norris and Peter Gilman. The key to understanding the Severn Trent Property (STP) connection is the relationship it had with GMI Construction, owned by Gilman. Until STP was sold in 2006 they had a history of working with GMI on mutually beneficial projects that turned brownfield sites into commercial developments. One of these was the former sewage works that the Banks's Stadium was built on. The cost for decontamination of the site was around £1,000,000 - a significant slice of the £5.75m we received from Morrisons for Fellows Park. Et voila - a relatively worthless site was suddenly worth quite a bit. Why did the club spend so much decontaminating land that it wouldn't actually own? We can only speculate - an astonishing business decision that may have benefited certain parties but one which certainly didn't benefit the football club and continues to affect us negatively 22 years on.

As a footnote to the relationship between GMI and STP, it's worth remembering that the Broadwalk Retail Park was also part of the stadium development. When Denglen (the company formed to build Bescot Stadium) folded, plans for the retail park were shelved but were subsequently resurrected. Even though Peter Gilman had been a director of Denglen, and despite the obvious inconvenience caused by their going into administration, Severn Trent Property surprisingly had no qualms about using Gilman’s GMI Construction to build Broadwalk when the project did go ahead. A remarkably strong relationship.

2. Good question. The rent was set at £75,000 PA rising with inflation. Why did STP - a profitable company - feel the need to divest itself of a decent asset for £300,000 (the price the Bonser brothers paid for the lease to the stadium in 1991) just a year after the ground was built and then transfer the freehold to Bonser in a land swap deal in 1995? The answer, of course, is that we'll never know.

3. Possibly.

4. See above. Rent was set at £75,000 rising with inflation. Robert and Jeff Bonser bought the lease for £300,000 in 1991.

5. It was Seven Trent Property. Denglen and Davonmanor were wound up without ever filing accounts when Walsall went into receivership in 1991. Denglen was dissolved in 1997.

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:41 am

bangsection wrote:2. Good question. The rent was set at £75,000 PA rising with inflation. Why did STP - a profitable company - feel the need to divest itself of a decent asset for £300,000 (the price the Bonser brothers paid for the lease to the stadium in 1991) just a year after the ground was built and then transfer the freehold to Bonser in a land swap deal in 1995? The answer, of course, is that we'll never know.

4. See above. Rent was set at £75,000 rising with inflation. Robert and Jeff Bonser bought the lease for £300,000 in 1991.

5. It was Seven Trent Property. Denglen and Davonmanor were wound up without ever filing accounts when Walsall went into receivership in 1991. Denglen was dissolved in 1997.


Thanks for adding some accurate details to my sketchy outline.

If the rent had risen just in line with RPI then it would have gone up by a factor of 1.84 since 1990. That would make the present rent £138,221. The extra rent presumably comes from the additions to the stadium since 1990: the Bonser Suite and the Purple Stand (or whatever is now called). It is a bit odd that the rent for the additions to the stadium are more than double the rent for the land and the original stands.

Of course one would have to see the lease in order to know how the annual increases are calculated. I assume that the lease allows for a rent review when there has been a change to the premises. Of course if the club's money was used to build the extra facilities it would be a bit odd if this then caused the club to have a huge rent increase.

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:00 pm

in the spirit of sketchy details (really should make more of an effort to commit this sort of thing to memory):

i'm pretty sure it's been stated any additions to the ground are funded by either the pension fund or loans made against it. couldn't say which it is, nor give a source, sorry. might even be a rare interview by our saviour, meaning it shouldn't be too difficult to track down!

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:36 pm

"In total, Bonser says, his pension fund has invested £3.8m. Whenever it does, the rent increases by a commercial percentage, around 7%, of that investment."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/davi ... adium-sale

From Bonser's interview with the Guardian in March 2011. The last time he spoke to the press. The same interview where he bemoaned the fact that Walsall fans didn't understand "his perspective". The irony being that Bonser has consistently refused to engage with fans in any meaningful way on the financial questions surrounding his ownership of the club, preferring instead to deride them in the press and spectacularly throw his toys out of the pram when a few lads unfurled the flag of a small Mediterranean island at a game.

We want to understand "your perspective", Jeff. It's just that over the last 20 years you've not been very keen on giving it.

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:07 pm

Didn't we also get a chunk of cash from the football grounds improvement trust?

Bottom line is that before JB got involved with WFC, the clubs balance sheet included some very big assets, JB's pension fund - not so much. Now the situation is the reverse.

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:02 pm

bangsection wrote:"In total, Bonser says, his pension fund has invested £3.8m. Whenever it does, the rent increases by a commercial percentage, around 7%, of that investment."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/davi ... adium-sale

From Bonser's interview with the Guardian in March 2011. The last time he spoke to the press. The same interview where he bemoaned the fact that Walsall fans didn't understand "his perspective". The irony being that Bonser has consistently refused to engage with fans in any meaningful way on the financial questions surrounding his ownership of the club, preferring instead to deride them in the press and spectacularly throw his toys out of the pram when a few lads unfurled the flag of a small Mediterranean island at a game.

We want to understand "your perspective", Jeff. It's just that over the last 20 years you've not been very keen on giving it.


Haven't read that article for a while, still makes my blood boil when I read it. But fair play Bonser though for coming out with the comedy classic line "The fans will appreciate what they had with me, when I've gone" We already realise what we have got with you Jeff, a poisenous parasite

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:04 pm

derbysaddler wrote:Might be worth asking Coventry City as they paddle to been homeless.

Interestingly, SISU, have argued back that Coventry's rent is too much and the average for this league is £170,000 per annum. Guess we didn't fancy going along with the average.


Surely Coventry have much bigger and more lucrative extra income streams than us at their stadium, so how can that figure be correct compared to ours?

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:35 pm

I find the above fascinating ..... So would any normal football fan ....Why is this not reported in the E+Star at least????????

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:45 pm

swiftyboy wrote:
derbysaddler wrote:Might be worth asking Coventry City as they paddle to been homeless.

Interestingly, SISU, have argued back that Coventry's rent is too much and the average for this league is £170,000 per annum. Guess we didn't fancy going along with the average.


Surely Coventry have much bigger and more lucrative extra income streams than us at their stadium, so how can that figure be correct compared to ours?

Coventry is a million plus rent, ours is 460,000? With training ground. The average for our league is lower than our figure, so that indicates given the size of grounds I'd say we are getting a rough deal. Although Coventry get no match day revenue from refreshments etc.

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:53 pm

wivenj wrote:I find the above fascinating ..... So would any normal football fan ....Why is this not reported in the E+Star at least????????


Because Nick Mashiter has no balls. Many of us have tried to get local media to tell "the story" including WM, but I think Bonser himself put the legal scarers out, so they all cack themselves.

Nothing to hide eh Jeff?

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:57 pm

derbysaddler wrote:
swiftyboy wrote:
derbysaddler wrote:Might be worth asking Coventry City as they paddle to been homeless.

Interestingly, SISU, have argued back that Coventry's rent is too much and the average for this league is £170,000 per annum. Guess we didn't fancy going along with the average.


Surely Coventry have much bigger and more lucrative extra income streams than us at their stadium, so how can that figure be correct compared to ours?

Coventry is a million plus rent, ours is 460,000? With training ground. The average for our league is lower than our figure, so that indicates given the size of grounds I'd say we are getting a rough deal. Although Coventry get no match day revenue from refreshments etc.


Coventry are a slightly special case because the catastrophic mismanagement of the club under Bryan Richardson meant that the city council spent over £40m building the Ricoh Arena for them. The quid pro quo for this was a relatively high rent of £1.2m and all of the matchday/hospitality/conferencing revenues going to the council. If I was a Coventry tax payer I'd be very annoyed that SISU are now trying to welch on the deal. Them saying that the "average" rent in League One is £170,000 is disingenuous because it disregards Coventry's Faustian pact with the council AND the fact that most other tenant clubs in League One rent their grounds from relatively friendly councils that they aren't in hock to - Colchester, Hartlepool and Doncaster for instance.

The most interesting thing about the Coventry situation is that if they refuse to pay the council the money they owe them they will automatically be placed in administration and will be deducted ten points.

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:08 am

wfc & chips wrote:in the spirit of sketchy details (really should make more of an effort to commit this sort of thing to memory)

I doubt very much whether anyone on here (possibly bangsection and exile excepted) has close to the full story.
I imagine the day the final piece to the jigsaw is put in place JB will be long gone.

Someone mentioned Severn Trent Water - where do they come into it?
Were Severn Trent Property an arm of Severn Trent Water?

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:32 am

Whitters wrote:
wfc & chips wrote:in the spirit of sketchy details (really should make more of an effort to commit this sort of thing to memory)

I doubt very much whether anyone on here (possibly bangsection and exile excepted) has close to the full story.
I imagine the day the final piece to the jigsaw is put in place JB will be long gone.

Someone mentioned Severn Trent Water - where do they come into it?
Were Severn Trent Property an arm of Severn Trent Water?

The most interesting relationship in all this is the one between Peter Gilman and Severn Trent. It would be veeeery interesting to know the all the ins and outs, not just in terms of WFC, but of the other property deals that have been done across the country between the two, eg Thorpe Park in Leeds.

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:07 am

As I wrote above, Severn Trent Property and GMI had a long history of mutually beneficial projects, including Thorpe Business Park. I'm not sure there are many "ins and outs" to the relationship - STP provided the land, GMI built the buildings. Nevertheless, the business around the Broadwalk development shows that they were clearly as thick as, er, something very thick.

It would be interesting to know whether IBM, National Grid, David Lloyd or any of the other blue chip tenants of Thorpe Business Park paid for the decontamination of the land (if it needed decontaminating) before they moved in and started paying rent.

But let's hazard a guess and say that, unlike Walsall Football Club, they didn't. Because that would be fudge stupid.

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:24 am

bangsection wrote:As I wrote above, Severn Trent Property and GMI had a long history of mutually beneficial projects, including Thorpe Business Park. I'm not sure there are many "ins and outs" to the relationship - STP provided the land, GMI built the buildings. Nevertheless, the business around the Broadwalk development shows that they were clearly as thick as, er, something very thick.

It would be interesting to know whether IBM, National Grid, David Lloyd or any of the other blue chip tenants of Thorpe Business Park paid for the decontamination of the land (if it needed decontaminating) before they moved in and started paying rent.

But let's hazard a guess and say that, unlike Walsall Football Club, they didn't. Because that would be fudge stupid.

As a young scouser once said - exaaaaaclty!

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Re: Other clubs who don't own their stadium

Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:28 pm

Topic preserved in 'classics' forum - a coherent discussion with important information for all Saddlers, now and future.

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