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Smoking ban at Bescot

Threads that have run on UpTheSaddlers that might or might not be worth keeping...

What do you think?

Poll ended at Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:13 am

Yes
66
80%
No
17
20%
 
Total votes : 83
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:48 pm

HKSaddler wrote:
Leamore Saddler wrote:Nicotine is more addictive than heroin but it has, since early Elizabethan times, become socially acceptable and ingrained in our culture. I am a realist and I know that, unfortunately, we could not ban it but there is no reason why we should not copy the Irish Republic and stop the selfish and inconsiderate among smokers from inflicting the foul effects of their dirty habit on others.


This is what ticks me off. You can't just say, stop others from being affected by smoke, you have to add a bunch of pejorative adjectives. Never having met me, you accuse me of being inconsiderate and deliberately killing others (inflicting suggests intent to me anyway). It is also a "dirty" habit in spite of the fact that the cigarettes I smoke are clean and fresh from the packet. They have foul effects on myself and others I'll grant you, but given I have never met you; I've certainly never affected your health in the slightest.

Read very carefully what I said, HKS. "...the selfish and inconsiderate among smokers...". I did NOT say ALL smokers. I know many smokers who always consider other people before deciding whether to light up or not. It is the self-centred addicts who are not in the least bit bothered about other people who p**s me off.

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Neuromantic
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:00 pm

End of the day, its a self evident truth that smoking is wrong, indubitable in fact.

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HKSaddler
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:15 pm

Leamore Saddler wrote:
HKSaddler wrote:
Leamore Saddler wrote:Nicotine is more addictive than heroin but it has, since early Elizabethan times, become socially acceptable and ingrained in our culture. I am a realist and I know that, unfortunately, we could not ban it but there is no reason why we should not copy the Irish Republic and stop the selfish and inconsiderate among smokers from inflicting the foul effects of their dirty habit on others.


This is what ticks me off. You can't just say, stop others from being affected by smoke, you have to add a bunch of pejorative adjectives. Never having met me, you accuse me of being inconsiderate and deliberately killing others (inflicting suggests intent to me anyway). It is also a "dirty" habit in spite of the fact that the cigarettes I smoke are clean and fresh from the packet. They have foul effects on myself and others I'll grant you, but given I have never met you; I've certainly never affected your health in the slightest.


Read very carefully what I said, HKS. "...the selfish and inconsiderate among smokers...". I did NOT say ALL smokers. I know many smokers who always consider other people before deciding whether to light up or not. It is the self-centred addicts who are not in the least bit bothered about other people who p**s me off.


So considerate smokers habit is not filthy? Only that of inconsiderate smokers? Also, your ban does not discriminate between considerate and inconsiderate smokers. The tone of your writing is clear, Leamore, even if you try to temper it with the word among. You want to ban all smokers because of the habits of some. In fact, you want to ban all smokers from smoking in piublic places whether or not they are considerate (and I'm not opposing that view). I wonder if your attitude would be different if I replaced the word smokers with football fans? We punish them all because amongst them there are inconsiderate ones?

Your language is perjorative and agressive, even if you deny it.

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HKSaddler
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:23 pm

wednesbury Saddler METFAN wrote:End of the day, its a self evident truth that smoking is wrong, indubitable in fact.


Very few things, if any, are self-evident truths. What do you mean by smoking is wrong? If I sit on my own in my own appartment smoking, how is that wrong? Moreover, how is it self-evident that that is wrong? Where is the moral imperative for me to never smoke if I do not harm others? What other harmful acts (to the individual involved, not others) are self-evidently wrong?

As soon as I hear that something is self-evident, I worry. The proponent of that view is probably on the march down the road towards erosion of civil liberties to some extent.

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Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:01 pm

Well done HK - you're ploughing a lonely furrow very well indeed.

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Duke
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:20 pm

i can only repeat my earlier post
i am prepared not to smoke in a non smoking area out of respect for other peoples opinions
very often on public transport i see many people light-up thats out of order
also living near to a comprehensive school i see many kids of all age groups smoking they
have at times asked me for a cigarette or even go to the newsagents and buy some for them
i always refuse

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cal's a saddler
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:27 pm

Think it should be banned at Bescot! And for that matter it should be priced out of reach for everyone including my youngest daughter who this year admitted she is now a smoker! :evil: She won't, however, have one in my presence!
Its a disgusting habit! :evil: :evil:

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Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:47 pm

HKSaddler wrote:So considerate smokers habit is not filthy? Only that of inconsiderate smokers? Also, your ban does not discriminate between considerate and inconsiderate smokers. The tone of your writing is clear, Leamore, even if you try to temper it with the word among. You want to ban all smokers because of the habits of some. In fact, you want to ban all smokers from smoking in piublic places whether or not they are considerate (and I'm not opposing that view). I wonder if your attitude would be different if I replaced the word smokers with football fans? We punish them all because amongst them there are inconsiderate ones?

Your language is perjorative and agressive, even if you deny it.

No, I don't deny it. As you may gather, it is a subject about which I feel strongly. Yes, in my opinion, smoking is filthy, no matter who does it, considerate or inconsiderate - it's just that the latter force others to suffer. Yes, I would like to see smoking abolished (along with other drug addictions) but I know it won't be, so I would settle for a ban in public places (as in the Irish Republic, like I said) and a raising of the minimum age for purchasers to be raised to 18.

Why on earth would I want to replace the word "smokers" with "football supporters"? I would like smoking abolished because it's ALWAYS bad for you, totally without a positive side and is highly addictive. I would not say the same for supporting football! :D (I'm sure this last comment will evoke a response!)

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Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:14 pm

Exile wrote:A whole thread on smoking in public and no Roy Castle jokes. This board is getting tame.

Ban it (smoking, not poor jokes) in the stadium, and the Saddlers Club, and all the bars pubs and restaurants, just like NZ.

We've had in force, for exactly a year, the Smokefree Environment Act, which prohibits smoking in the workplace. Not everywhere, just the workplace, which automatically covers all places mentioned above, as well as offies, factories, hospitals and all that. If you want a smoke anywhere where people work, you have to go outside, full stop, end of story.

It isn't about the rights of the smoker (who I agree should be left to pursue the hobby unmolested), but about the rights of the non-smoker who works in the environment.

FYI takings in bars and restaurants are up, and patronage is up, early studies indicate.

Totally agree with Exile. As others have said, I have no problem with anyone who wants to smoke, its the discomfort that they cause me that is the problem. When the Smokeefree act came in here this time last year there was a lot of gloom merchants who reckon that pub takings would be down etc. The opposite has been the case. i personally know of a couple of people who go to the pub for a drink and the music bands etc where they havent done so for years because of the smoke issue.

Went to watch NZ beat Australia at cricket on Saturday night. The seating area is now completely smoke free. Has given the stewards something new to watch out for. Looking for people doing an illegal light up. And boy do they jump on them hard

Agre whole-heartedly that this is an all-or-nothing subject, and leaving people to make their own mind up about it will result in nothing but b0ll0cks.

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Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:49 pm

Smoking is wrong

Choppa!

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SaigonSaddler
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:57 am

Image


No thanks!

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HKSaddler
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:58 am

I agree. When you close the chamber you'll break the cigarettes. What a waste! :D

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Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:44 am

Don't forget, when you give up smoking in pursuit of the healthier lifestyle, that there's no such thing as half-measures, so at the same time:
1 - give up all processed food - the closer to nature the better
2 - better still, make it organice natural food, no more pesky pesticides for you!
3 - tea? Nope. Bad for you - gives you mood swings.
4 - drink green tea, or rooibos instead.
5 - no milk in that! Dairy's bad for you. It's proven.
6 - Whaddya mean you want a coffee? No chance! You know how ad caffeine is?
7 - meat is murder, and if you eat it ten people will starve because of the grain that cow / pig / horse (depending on currrent residence)
8 - healthy exercise only please. No football, no jogging, no tennis. High impact exercise stuffs your joints up so you'll be a cripple as you live to 120.

People will do what they want. Who's to deny HK Saddler his lifeplan to live fast and die young? Not everyone wants to live past their alloted three score and ten, dandling great-grandkids on their knee and going on about how great things were in the old days when there was an ozone layer, and you could swim in the sea because you could afford the petrol in the car to get there.

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Neil Ravenscroft
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:13 am

Quite simply, if he's paying for his own health care, fine, but he isn't as everyone else is, either via taxes or higher insurance premiums, so smokers effect everyone, even if they only do it at home. Just say "No", you know it makes sense.

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HKSaddler
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:54 am

But I do pay for my own health care in the form of private medical insurance as stated elsewhere in this thread. It is valid world wide and I stated I was a smoker prior to obtaining it so pay a premium on my premium. I also pay taxes to have health care from the HK government. I also pay large taxes in the form of tobacco tax which goes to at least offset any additional costs. I will also die early so the government will pay less in state pension to me (not that HK actually has a state pension scheme worth anything). I will never be a burden on the tax payers of Hong Kong. Now can I sit quietly in my own appartment, on my own, where nobody else lives and having a frigging cigarette in peace? :)

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King Crimson
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:03 am

My main concern is that this could drive Darren Wrack out of the club. Is that what you want? Is it??? Is it??? :twisted:
Last edited by King Crimson on Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Exile
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:09 am

Are you trying to keep tabs on Dazza? :roll:

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HKSaddler
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:16 am

Is Wracky a smoker?

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Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:23 am

HKSaddler wrote:Is Wracky a smoker?

Like a chimney, apparently - so you see, you DO have a soul-mate, HKS! :lol:

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Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:23 am

If the pope is still catholic, then yes, according to all recent reports.

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HKSaddler
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:33 am

My hero. I've always been a fan of Woosie and Tufnell :D

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Exile
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:50 am

...and another thing, besides dying younger and being a pension-free break-even on the tax stats, having paid through the nose (or lung) all the years you've smoked for your (brief) cancer healthcare, I think you're still single and haven't bred?

If so, then stuff 'em! Why should you pay for their illbred offspring to attend school!

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HKSaddler
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:20 am

Exile wrote:...and another thing, besides dying younger and being a pension-free break-even on the tax stats, having paid through the nose (or lung) all the years you've smoked for your (brief) cancer healthcare, I think you're still single and haven't bred?

If so, then stuff 'em! Why should you pay for their illbred offspring to attend school!


Excellent point. In the end my taxes here (and those I paid when I lived in the UK) purchased many things that I don't avail myself of. I pay for education, as Exile points out, in HK, whilst having no offspring to take advantage of that. Can I have a tax rebate for that? Can we just make everyone pay additional tax to cover their school costs. Maybe a "per child" poll tax would be in order.

I don't actually believe this, but it makes a point. Even if I was totally reliant on public health, that's what I've paid tax for. Increase the tax on tobacco even further, that's fine.

Cal's a saddler wrote:Think it should be banned at Bescot! And for that matter it should be priced out of reach for everyone including my youngest daughter who this year admitted she is now a smoker! Evil or Very Mad She won't, however, have one in my presence!
Its a disgusting habit! Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad


Ban it at Bescot if you must, but raising the price too far will just end up funding criminals and organised crime. At some point the risk of smuggling becomes worth it if the profits are high enough.

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Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:59 am

i'm definitely for banning. i'm against passive smoking and was not happy that the last time i sat in the lower gilbert alsop stand, i ended up going home with a cigarette burn in the back of my top.

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WarsawPact
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:24 pm

What astonishes me about smoking, is how anyone would actually take it up.

I had a drag on a cigarette once, and I thought it was the second-worst thing I'd ever had in my mouth. :shock:

I couldn't taste anything else for the rest of the weekend.

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Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:59 pm

Sitting in the middle of a cleft stick here.
I am a smoker and so want to have a cigarette BUT I am not stupid enough to realise when and where I can/cant do that.
I dont/have never smoked at work.
I do not smoke in non-smokers houses/cars.
Would be quite happy to see a ban on smoking in the seats at Bescot, as long as there was a "smoking concourse" for pre-match and half-time drags.
Cannot agree with a "ban all public smoking" call. Not just cause it scuppers me but I see no reason why there shouldnt be a foul-smelling haven with nicotine and tar dripping of the walls for those of us that like a fag with a beer.
Really do not understand why you cant have smoking and non-smoking pubs with a chuffin big sign on the door as you walk in. That way everyone knows the score and they can decide to go into the "Tobacco Tavern" if they want or head next door to the "Airfresheners Arms".
All this toss about places selling and not-selling food just confuses everyone (I dont smoke in restaurants either by the way)
I'll defend my right until the day I wrasp my final emphysemic breath to smoke out on the street, in my own car or in my own home though.

MERSON OUT

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Neil Ravenscroft
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:15 pm

HKSaddler wrote:But I do pay for my own health care in the form of private medical insurance as stated elsewhere in this thread. It is valid world wide and I stated I was a smoker prior to obtaining it so pay a premium on my premium. I also pay taxes to have health care from the HK government. I also pay large taxes in the form of tobacco tax which goes to at least offset any additional costs. I will also die early so the government will pay less in state pension to me (not that HK actually has a state pension scheme worth anything). I will never be a burden on the tax payers of Hong Kong. Now can I sit quietly in my own appartment, on my own, where nobody else lives and having a frigging cigarette in peace? :)


You didn't read what I said. Higher premiums are caused by claims. Claims are caused by illness. Smoking causes illness. Smokers mean everyone with private health insurance pays more.

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King Crimson
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:21 pm

Neil Ravenscroft wrote:
You didn't read what I said. Higher premiums are caused by claims. Claims are caused by illness. Smoking causes illness. Smokers mean everyone with private health insurance pays more.


Not strictly true. Claims are caused by requiring treatment (that is covered under the policy). If I play sports that result in injury or long term damage resulting in treatment (e.g. hip replacement, arthritis) I incur a cost on the policy which inevitably will be transferred onto other policyholders. Is this avenue of pleasure to be banned also?

I don't smoke.

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Geordiesaddler
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:30 pm

I would point out that SJ like my good-self is a former Mob Lane pupil, where smoking was compulsary between 1960 and 1985.

The thing that annoys me as an ex-smoker is the way young people smoke these days. Waving their tabs about in the air like Quinten Crisp, that's what causes all this passive smoking, if they were trained to smoke properly at school like we were there would be no such thing as passive smoking.

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Duke
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:39 pm

Intrested to hear SJ and Geordie are both ex puples of mob lane
i also attended that school between 1968 - 1972 i dare say its way before your time

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