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Smoking ban at Bescot

Threads that have run on UpTheSaddlers that might or might not be worth keeping...

What do you think?

Poll ended at Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:13 am

Yes
66
80%
No
17
20%
 
Total votes : 83
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Hamstead Red
 
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:19 pm

Some people need the establishment to tell them what to do , especialy if they cant see the futility of inhaling tobacco smoke and in the process making others inhale it too.

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Surrey Saddler
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:14 pm

You are dead right SJ. I cannot stand other people telling me what to do. The ONLY, yes the ONLY person that should be allowed to tell other people what to do is ME :twisted:

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Manchester Saddler
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:22 pm

sj wrote:Mancherter you make me smile, I'm smiling whilst typing this.

Being told what to do is the most destuctive thing in the world because its always THEM telling me. Makes my blood boil. What the fudge do they know ? Answer that Mancherster


Do you want a lawless society then SJ where everyone is free to do whatever they want? Do you want someone to go around shooting people because nobody is telling him to stop? It just wouldn't work would it?

Nobody is telling anybody not to smoke. What they are doing is telling people do so in areas where it will not cause harm or discomfort to other people. Taking this to the extreme, do you think it's OK, if people shouldn't order people to do things, that perhaps people should be free to urinate and defecate where they want. Is telling people that they cannot defecate or urinate next to you in a pub different from telling them they can't blow smoke in your face?

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derbysaddler
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:23 pm

Cold war ?, nope, Terrorism?, nope....smoking, YES!, death of the world!.

Get a f**king grip.
Whats next? ban knitting in case you stab your finger?

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geoffwhiting
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:41 pm

How very childish you can be sometimes sj, for a man of your age.

So you don't like being told what to do ! Shame.

Not even when it's something that harms not only those who choose to indulge in it, but everyone else around them. Shame on you !

It's OK though, is it, for me to be told I can't have the freedom to go to the pub without risking my lungs, and/or coming home stinking of smoke ? How pathetic !

This isn't one of those shallow "nanny-state" issues to be dimissed out-of-hand, this is a bl**dy serious matter, and I'm sorry to say this sj, but on this particular matter you are being a very stupid man !

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Zippy
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Interesting

Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:01 pm

Just thought I'd point out that since the final whistle at todays mtach there has been 27 messages posted about smoking at Bescot and only 23 mesages posted about todays game.

Marvellous.

:roll:
Last edited by Zippy on Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Neuromantic
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Re: Interesting

Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:05 pm

Zippyzip wrote:Just thought I'd point out that since the final whistle at thodays mtach there has been 27 messages posted about smoking at Bescot and only 23 mesages posted about todays game.

Marvellous.

:roll:


and how appropriate you of all people would spot that. It was only a draw mate. Come back and say that when we are in the play offs ;)

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WSOne
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:12 pm

60 votes have been cast, and 81% are in favour of my proposal...

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Surrey Saddler
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:21 pm

Strong stuff Geoff. Being serious, I would love it if smoking was banned in all public places, especially pubs. But I must admit feeling a bit sorry for old codgers who have smoked all their lives and go to the pub for a quiet drink to get a bit of company (or even to get away from the missus). There are quite a lot of old blokes like this and it would take away a large part of their lives if they were denied their fag.

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sj
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:50 pm

Geoff I would respond to your last post if it was not so AGEIST.

Also again you ignor Freedom Is this because you are a Fascist :shock:

Geoff please before you go to bed this night look up the word Populist-- it should make you think.

Bless him :D

your friend Jonny B

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geoffwhiting
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:19 am

sj wrote:Geoff I would respond to your last post if it was not so AGEIST.

Also again you ignor Freedom Is this because you are a Fascist :shock:

Geoff please before you go to bed this night look up the word Populist-- it should make you think.

Bless him :D

your friend Jonny B


AGEIST !!!!!!!!!! Bl**dy PRICELESS! You are talking out of your AR$E again sj. Is it AGEIST because I am 55? Is it AGEIST when my 26 year old son repeats the same thoughts as me ? AGEIST - that's just utter and complete b*ll*cks, and you know it!

You're just coming up with excuses sj, but in fairness to you, if you want to sit in a pub full of smoke, fair play, go ahead and pollute yourself as much as you like. It is, after all, your self-declared RIGHT to inhale as much carcinogenic material as you bl**dy-well like!

Don't make this even more stupid sj. Ageism has nowt to do with it, any more than AGE has much to do with lung cancer, or the stink on my clothes after I've left the pub.

Just bl**dy ban it Blair, like in Ireland. In a few weeks, everyone will get to accept it, and head for the open air if they need a fag.

Get over there sj, see what it's like to enjoy a drink in clear air, go back to your bed, and wake up next morning without the stink of smoke impregnated into last night's jacket and trousers. You just might be converted.

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HKSaddler
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:08 am

geoffwhiting wrote:Just bl**dy ban it Blair, like in Ireland. In a few weeks, everyone will get to accept it, and head for the open air if they need a fag.


This is where I disagree with you. "Just bl**dy ban it." That is the thin end of the wedge as the cliche goes. I don't like the effects and I'm in the majority, so just ban smoking and save them from themselves." It needs more thought than a blanket ban in all public places. If the complete ban holds then I can't go to a pub and nip outside for a ciggy, because I'll have to find some sort of smoking shelter for that to occur. God knows how those will work, and God knows they'll be full of hard drug addicts and hookers and punters.

I'll run with total bans in public encl;osed areas, even open air stadia. However banning people from having a fag in a street is absurd in the extreme, and violates my civil libities. Not something to do just to satisfy the majority, surely!

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Exile
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:27 am

A whole thread on smoking in public and no Roy Castle jokes. This board is getting tame.

Ban it (smoking, not poor jokes) in the stadium, and the Saddlers Club, and all the bars pubs and restaurants, just like NZ.

We've had in force, for exactly a year, the Smokefree Environment Act, which prohibits smoking in the workplace. Not everywhere, just the workplace, which automatically covers all places mentioned above, as well as offies, factories, hospitals and all that. If you want a smoke anywhere where people work, you have to go outside, full stop, end of story.

It isn't about the rights of the smoker (who I agree should be left to pursue the hobby unmolested), but about the rights of the non-smoker who works in the environment.

FYI takings in bars and restaurants are up, and patronage is up, early studies indicate.

Agre whole-heartedly that this is an all-or-nothing subject, and leaving people to make their own mind up about it will result in nothing but b0ll0cks.

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Neil Ravenscroft
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:53 am

Having just spent some time in the Respitory Care Unit at the Manor, virtually everyone in there is there because of smoking and it costs well over £500 a day to keep them in. Ban it now.

Cully
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:52 am

sj wrote:Cully you're nasty nasty man :lol: You are this boards Mr Punch--a psychopath bereft of feelings for his fellow saddlers.

Saddly Like Dear Geoff you miss my point. Cully this hang um, ban um, punish um position is always the "moral majority" stopping the rest of us doing the stuff we like to do.

Cully my point is about FREEDOM and LIBERTY. Smoking is silly and harmful to all but not as harmful as being told what to , when to do it, and how to do it.

Cully if I want to run with the Bulls or have smoke or whatever- you must allow me to do it.

The populist attitude of restricting this and banning that is the thin end of the wedge of a repressive, sterile society.

Cully dont you see that your attitude (and Geoffs) will lead in the end to that which you hate the most---Yes "The Nanny State. :twisted:


Cully come with me on this one I'm trying to help you, to save you from yourself. Trust me :shock:


Cheers sj, but I've learnt that sometimes it is foolish to hold onto impossible principles at any cost particularily those that have no place in todays society. Why you choose to threaten us with a loss of freedom and liberty implying that this is the thin end of the wedge is to ignore everything we have learnt from history, I'm very grateful that you stopped at that point before introducing the examples of Hitlers Germany and the vast Socialist empires that used to exist the other side of the 'Iron curtain', you know, those societies that you admired in your naive student formative years as you were 'trying to change the world' :(
Whilst I admire your pluck in trying to hold your tenuous position on this subject, there comes a point when your principles must evolve and trying to align the right to smoke with those of freedom and liberty are becoming increasingly isolated.
It would appear that you continue to prove that the ability of Marxists to forget their history and yet rise above their ignorance is profound. :lol:
See, I do have feelings, consider yourself saved 8)

ps. What's a psychopath Judy?

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Pedagogue
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:23 am

sj - if smoking only affected the smoker, your personal freedom of choice argument MIGHT have something to it but, as you well know, smoking affects other people and that is why it is necessary to legislate. As Geoff said - Blair, pull your finger out and stop fannying about. Pass the Act and restrict smoking.

I must confess that I am totally biased on this issue. As a lad, I watched my father commit slow, prolonged suicide, courtesy of Woodbines and Park Drive and he died of just about every lung disease bar cancer itself. He started my mother on the smoking habit and my big achievement was getting her to stop after he died. I hate, loathe and mortally detest anything to do with smoking and, if I had my way, tobacco would become a Class A drug.

VILE ADDICTION - BAN IT NOW!

MOSOC

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HKSaddler
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:35 am

Make smoking a class A drug and it would probably become more popular. Look at prohibition. Unless of course you think, like me, that class A drugs should be legalised to stop the funding of organised crime (I may have opened a huge bag of worms there :) ).

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Flemish Saddler
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:37 am

HKSaddler wrote:Make smoking a class A drug and it would probably become more popular. Look at prohibition. Unless of course you think, like me, that class A drugs should be legalised to stop the funding of organised crime (I may have opened a huge bag of worms there :) ).


class A is soft drugs??

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HKSaddler
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:41 am

No, hard drugs. Heroine, Crack, Cocaine etc.

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Flemish Saddler
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:45 am

so then it's impossible to quote tobacco as a class A without bringing marihuana and similars aswell to class A.

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geoffwhiting
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:45 am

HKSaddler wrote:
geoffwhiting wrote:Just bl**dy ban it Blair, like in Ireland. In a few weeks, everyone will get to accept it, and head for the open air if they need a fag.


This is where I disagree with you. "Just bl**dy ban it." That is the thin end of the wedge as the cliche goes. I don't like the effects and I'm in the majority, so just ban smoking and save them from themselves." It needs more thought than a blanket ban in all public places. If the complete ban holds then I can't go to a pub and nip outside for a ciggy, because I'll have to find some sort of smoking shelter for that to occur. God knows how those will work, and God knows they'll be full of hard drug addicts and hookers and punters.

I'll run with total bans in public encl;osed areas, even open air stadia.

However banning people from having a fag in a street is absurd in the extreme, and violates my civil libities. Not something to do just to satisfy the majority, surely!


No no SS, you've assumed I mean ban smoking as a whole, which I do not, and never would. If you read my posts I am talking about exactly what you are supporting, banning it in pubs, restaurants and other such enclosed public places, where non-smokers have no choice but to put up with it inwardly and outwardly. I'd include stadia as well, because even though generally outdoors, people are packed in too closely together to avoid the "drift".

When I said Blair should ban it, I meant he should grasp the nettle and go through with the recent proposals that, in the end, were diluted down to a much less effective level.

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Pedagogue
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:53 am

Nicotine is more addictive than heroin but it has, since early Elizabethan times, become socially acceptable and ingrained in our culture. I am a realist and I know that, unfortunately, we could not ban it but there is no reason why we should not copy the Irish Republic and stop the selfish and inconsiderate among smokers from inflicting the foul effects of their dirty habit on others.

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HKSaddler
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:54 am

It was me, Geoff, not SS.

OK, I'll agree you didn't suggest a total ban, but there have been various suggestions along those lines in this thread (something about smoking shelters, whatever they might be).

We're not so far apart on this, even though I'm a smoker and you're born again non-smokers. Converts are the worst the world over :)

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HKSaddler
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:59 am

Leamore Saddler wrote:Nicotine is more addictive than heroin but it has, since early Elizabethan times, become socially acceptable and ingrained in our culture. I am a realist and I know that, unfortunately, we could not ban it but there is no reason why we should not copy the Irish Republic and stop the selfish and inconsiderate among smokers from inflicting the foul effects of their dirty habit on others.


This is what ticks me off. You can't just say, stop others from being affected by smoke, you have to add a bunch of pejorative adjectives. Never having met me, you accuse me of being inconsiderate and deliberately killing others (inflicting suggests intent to me anyway). It is also a "dirty" habit in spite of the fact that the cigarettes I smoke are clean and fresh from the packet. They have foul effects on myself and others I'll grant you, but given I have never met you; I've certainly never affected your health in the slightest.

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Acuman
 
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:02 am

Sorry for a bias point of view but......

Part of my job involves working with terminal cancer patients in the period just prior to death,
if every smoker could speak to one of these people, the desire to quit smoking would soon be universal !

..........but everyone has a free choice

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HKSaddler
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:08 am

Acuman wrote:Sorry for a bias point of view but......

Part of my job involves working with terminal cancer patients in the period just prior to death,
if every smoker could speak to one of these people, the desire to quit smoking would soon be universal !

..........but everyone has a free choice


I think the desire to stop is there; but it's not that simple. If you look at the statistics it shows that someone who starts smoking after 16 is much more likely to be able to give up than someone who started below 16. The habit becomes ingrained at an early stage.

One of the other things I can't stand when I make my periodic forays into giving up is self-righteous idiots who tell me how well I'm doing and how great it must be to have given up that (insert a bunch of pejorative statements here) habit. Patronising scum who only manage to make me more likely to smoke. They forget that I like to smoke. It relaxes me. I feel more comfortable with a ciggy in my hand than not. I like the taste. The taste in the morning I could live without, but cleaning my teeth takes that away.

... or maybe that's just me.
:)

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Acuman
 
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:32 am

I agree with what you say HK, the reason I said desire is I know that it isn't easy to quit.
Some of the terminal Lung cancer patients I have are still smoking, to me that says it all
on how deep grained the addiction can be. There is no one simple answer and for some
people a multiple system approach is required to give lasting response. I know that in
terms of acupuncture for instance the treatment is the same as for addiction for cocaine
or other so called hard drugs

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HKSaddler
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:34 am

Acuman wrote:I agree with what you say HK, the reason I said desire is I know that it isn't easy to quit.
Some of the terminal Lung cancer patients I have are still smoking, to me that says it all
on how deep grained the addiction can be. There is no one simple answer and for some
people a multiple system approach is required to give lasting response. I know that in
terms of acupuncture for instance the treatment is the same as for addiction for cocaine
or other so called hard drugs


One minor point: if someone has terminal cancer, I can see why they wouldn't give up smoking. Why deny yourself of a pleasure in the last few weeks/months of your life, especially as there is now no down side. If there is a chance of recovery, that's a different matter.

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sj
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:15 pm

Leamore and Geoff ,me old mates, the gradual loss of our liberty scares me to death.. I'm serious we must be free to kill ourselves if thats what we want. Nothing is more impotant than this.

HK Saddler- I agree with all that you have said I too hate patronising barstewards

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sj
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:17 pm

Off to spain tonight so must leave this debate here.

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