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Uncle Jeff's Leaving Do.

Threads that have run on UpTheSaddlers that might or might not be worth keeping...
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Exile
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Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:08 am

kevin wrote:
Burnside wrote: i'm sure the retail park is nothing to do with us in that way kev.



I never said it was anything to do with us.



What I did say was..................part of the costs of the sewers , roads , and enabling works for the retail park, came out of the tin labelled "Fellows Park Money "


The whole original site was the one Walsall were supposed to own before Denglen and GMI managed the construction project. What was later sold was only the land that WFC occupied, not the retail park, which ended up elsewhere (any suggestions as to ownership of the retail park welcome - I've not researched that bit).

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geoff skillet
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Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:57 am

"the officers of said fund are bound legally to make the best investments possible"

not the case. JB is in control of it, and can "invest" however he likes, including badly.

i'd be interested to learn who owns the retail park too.

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:26 am

Exile wrote:
Too right it's not moving anywhere (except sideways). :wink:

In 1994 Walsall were still a lot better off than 4 years prior, having dumped all the high income players, ridden the ticket price increase storm and settled in at Bescot, yet to the best of my knowledge no option was put forward to help the club buy what it was supposed to already own and there was only one bidder. As a side issue, after our chairman of the time bought the land for the Bonser Retirement Fund the rent was GBP30,000 a year, a far cry from what it is now. Work out the compound increase - frightening, yet all market driven. What could Walsall have done with all that extra money over more than a decade, instead of having to pay and pay and pay?

I'd also add that Walsall moved to Bescot expecting to own the land, and that financially the funds were there to achieve all directives at the time. What happened to derail this plan one can only speculate on due to complete lack of public reporting of almost all aspects.

We ended up with a stadium that was a direct copy of another (Glanford Park), yet took five times longer and an extra GBP4,000,000 to build. We got done like a kipper by somebody. Bonser took over Denglen's shareholding in Walsall in 1991, no listed shareprice given, but as they were in administration at the time I doubt it was more than a nominal value, so it's a moot (and probably very small) point what he paid to get total control of our club.

Financial info from the club ceased to be a free and public matter a little prior to the Bescot land sale. Note that when Ramsden took over it was a fanfare welcome, and it was announced in the media that the figure he "paid" was GBP400,000 for a freehold club. When Uncle Jeff took over nothing was reported anywhere, and now we're a leasehold club.

To all the apologists suggesting the best way forward is for a club not to own it's own ground I'd say that we'd almost survived the bad times when Bescot came about and if our new stadium project hadn't been totally f****d up by various parties we'd still have that luxury.

I'll also challenge the "increased risk in investment property" statement with you, Canadian (no offence meant now I've met you :wink: ). Firstly, we own the property, not the land, and secondly I'd suggest that land ownership hasn't fallen out of favour in the UK since at least the reformation. It's a part of every investor's portfolio, including retirement fund investors.


Post of the year.

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:50 am

philthesaddler wrote:
Exile wrote:
Too right it's not moving anywhere (except sideways). :wink:

In 1994 Walsall were still a lot better off than 4 years prior, having dumped all the high income players, ridden the ticket price increase storm and settled in at Bescot, yet to the best of my knowledge no option was put forward to help the club buy what it was supposed to already own and there was only one bidder. As a side issue, after our chairman of the time bought the land for the Bonser Retirement Fund the rent was GBP30,000 a year, a far cry from what it is now. Work out the compound increase - frightening, yet all market driven. What could Walsall have done with all that extra money over more than a decade, instead of having to pay and pay and pay?

I'd also add that Walsall moved to Bescot expecting to own the land, and that financially the funds were there to achieve all directives at the time. What happened to derail this plan one can only speculate on due to complete lack of public reporting of almost all aspects.

We ended up with a stadium that was a direct copy of another (Glanford Park), yet took five times longer and an extra GBP4,000,000 to build. We got done like a kipper by somebody. Bonser took over Denglen's shareholding in Walsall in 1991, no listed shareprice given, but as they were in administration at the time I doubt it was more than a nominal value, so it's a moot (and probably very small) point what he paid to get total control of our club.

Financial info from the club ceased to be a free and public matter a little prior to the Bescot land sale. Note that when Ramsden took over it was a fanfare welcome, and it was announced in the media that the figure he "paid" was GBP400,000 for a freehold club. When Uncle Jeff took over nothing was reported anywhere, and now we're a leasehold club.

To all the apologists suggesting the best way forward is for a club not to own it's own ground I'd say that we'd almost survived the bad times when Bescot came about and if our new stadium project hadn't been totally f****d up by various parties we'd still have that luxury.

I'll also challenge the "increased risk in investment property" statement with you, Canadian (no offence meant now I've met you :wink: ). Firstly, we own the property, not the land, and secondly I'd suggest that land ownership hasn't fallen out of favour in the UK since at least the reformation. It's a part of every investor's portfolio, including retirement fund investors.


Post of the year.[/quote]

Absolutely (also Bangsection's posts are worthy of consideration). I would however really like to see Stafflers argue his point against a post like this....

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:53 am

Exile wrote:The whole original site was the one Walsall were supposed to own before Denglen and GMI managed the construction project. What was later sold was only the land that WFC occupied, not the retail park, which ended up elsewhere (any suggestions as to ownership of the retail park welcome - I've not researched that bit).


Someone elses Pension Fund, by the looks.....

http://www.propertymall.com/press/article/15444

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:56 am


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Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:20 am

Burnside wrote:

Appointing Chris Nicholl, Ray Graydon, Dickie Dosh, Colin Lee. (1 bad appointment merse ?)

.


Broadhurst??

Colin lee a good appointment??

I'd say 3 good managers out of 6.

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:24 am

Darlosaddler wrote:
Burnside wrote:

Appointing Chris Nicholl, Ray Graydon, Dickie Dosh, Colin Lee. (1 bad appointment merse ?)

.


Broadhurst??

Colin lee a good appointment??

I'd say 3 good managers out of 6.


:shock:

Are you being serious? It may have gonestale at the end for Colin Lee, but his record of keeping us in the second tier of English football is admirable - by anyone's standards.

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:25 am

The Denglen fiasco is one of the murkiest episodes in modern football. The way our club was mercilessly asset stripped in the wake of Ramsden's departure should still be a point of contention now, but it has largely been forgotten - mainly because nobody in authority gave a toss what happened to football clubs in those days, especially unfashionable ones from the Black Country. Its legacy lives on, however, not only in our parlous financial state but also in the anodyne, identikit stadium that we had built for us with, let's be honest, a fraction of the Morrison's cash.

That's why people who actually remember what happened and are still angry enough to research it (great post Exile BTW) are so important to this board. Some of our younger fans probably have no idea what happened in the 80s and need educating. Whether they're bothered is another matter of course.

Apart from the stadium, our one other tangible reminder of Denglen is our old friend and benefactor (sic), the millionaire Jeffrey Bonser. Plastic Hawk deserves credit for trying to propose a solution to the freehold question but I agree with Dave that a buyout is probably beyond the means of the Trust. However, the fans should certainly start to attempt to try to open channels of communication with our owner. He has presided over one of the most successful periods in the club's history on and off the pitch. He has also become extremely wealthy in the process. What could be a better addition to this legacy than returning the freehold to the club? Because if he does sell the freehold to the highest bidder then he is effectively sentencing Walsall FC to another X years of starting every season with a massive financial handicap. But, again, this is speculation because, as ever, we don't know his intentions. I would argue that we need to establish just what he does plan to do with the freehold as soon as possible.

Jeff is clearly moving into the endgame at Walsall. As fans, it's never been more important for us to make our voices heard. Those who were around in 1989/90 couldn't prevent what was going on because they were kept in the dark. As fans - the most important people at Walsall FC bar none - it would be gross negligence to let the same thing happen again. We need to establish Bonser's intentions and then do everything we can to negotiate the most mutually beneficial scenario for his departure. Because Walsall FC will be here long after Jeff cashes in his pension fund.

I can feel a letter coming on...

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:29 am

Darlosaddler wrote:
Burnside wrote:

Appointing Chris Nicholl, Ray Graydon, Dickie Dosh, Colin Lee. (1 bad appointment merse ?)

.


Broadhurst??

Colin lee a good appointment??

I'd say 3 good managers out of 6.


Of course Lee was a good appointment - he kept us in the Championship twice. Whether or not it all went sour later on doesn't alter the fact that it was the right appointment at the time.

Broadhurst was a poor appointment, but was on a hiding to nothing and always only temporary, Merson was a dreadful one and Sorensen not good either but did no lasting damage. But, all of those (except Merson) were got rid of quickly and only account for three and a half years of JB's time at the club. Nicholl, Graydon, Lee and Money were all very good appointments though and each left (or will leave in DD's case) the club in a better state than they took it over in. Between them they've been in charge for more than twice as long as the poor managers. JB's in the top 10% when it comes to managerial appointments over his time in charge - four good appointments, two that you'd like to think he'd have done better on (but acted quickly to correct) and one disaster will match up well to any other club's record in that time.

(I don't remember who appointed Hibbitt, but for all of his faults, he'd go down as a good appointment for me too. Not in the league of Money, Lee, Graydon and Nicholl, but well ahead of Sorenson and Broadhurst.)

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:45 am

bangsection wrote:The Denglen fiasco is one of the murkiest episodes in modern football. The way our club was mercilessly asset stripped in the wake of Ramsden's departure should still be a point of contention now, but it has largely been forgotten - mainly because nobody in authority gave a toss what happened to football clubs in those days, especially unfashionable ones from the Black Country. Its legacy lives on, however, not only in our parlous financial state but also in the anodyne, identikit stadium that we had built for us with, let's be honest, a fraction of the Morrison's cash.


Paradoxically, it's the fear of being asset stripped again that makes me think that having as few directly owned assets as possible is the best way forward for WFC - and for all small football clubs. If we can secure long term leases on the land that we play and train on from a trusted landlord with only the club's best interests at heart and no direct connection to the club (I accept that is not the situation we're in now) then we can fly under the radar of the property developers and other wide-boys out to make a quick buck. In the meantime, by owning the buildings that sit on that land we can, hopefully, exploit them financially in order to bring success to the club. In my view, the rent on the land (so long as JB disposes of it in the right way) acts as an insurance policy on our future existence - as nobody in their right mind except for a fan would want to buy a football club that doesn't own the land it plays on (as has been said several times on this thread).

Look at ourselves before Bescot, Brighton in the last days at the Goldstone Ground, Wrexham 18 months ago. All owned their own grounds and all were ruthlessly stripped of that asset and nearly ended up going bankrupt. Maidstone went bust after their ground was sold to MFI and the promised new one didn't materialize. Clubs that don't have the comfort blanket of a prime piece of real estate to fall back on have to manage their finances properly - and in the long term I believe that does more good than harm. Obviously that scenario does mean that the ground has to be owned by someone who isn't just going to sell it anyway. In most cases that's the local council, but I guess that's not an option in our case.

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:48 am

The balance of Bonser's managerial appoinments cannot be decided simply on him giving the job to more good people than bad.

A person can live an almost blameless life, full of brilliant achievements, but if he gets caught being over romantic with just one sheep then his record is forever tarnished.

It has to accepted that the Merson appointment undid all the good done by Nicholl, Graydon and Lee. It was totally indefensible from beginning to end. After appointing Merson, refusing his resignation twice, and failing to sack him many times I am afraid that Bonser has lost any possible claim to being a good appointer of managers and a wise steward of the fortunes of the club.

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:51 am

Bernie wrote:A person can live an almost blameless life, full of brilliant achievements, but if he gets caught being over romantic with just one sheep then his record is forever tarnished.


Ain't that the truth. And she never even returned my calls. :cry:

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:06 pm

Bernie wrote:The balance of Bonser's managerial appoinments cannot be decided simply on him giving the job to more good people than bad.

A person can live an almost blameless life, full of brilliant achievements, but if he gets caught being over romantic with just one sheep then his record is forever tarnished.

It has to accepted that the Merson appointment undid all the good done by Nicholl, Graydon and Lee. It was totally indefensible from beginning to end. After appointing Merson, refusing his resignation twice, and failing to sack him many times I am afraid that Bonser has lost any possible claim to being a good appointer of managers and a wise steward of the fortunes of the club.


In my view, that's a silly argument. You can't take away the memories of those years in the Championship just because we were arguably back to square one by the end of the Merson era (we weren't - we had better facilities than we had at the start of the Nicholl era, which has led to the influx of young talent we have now and makes it more likely we'll kick on quickly). In any case, we're back in credit now as DD has got us back to a higher level than we were at when Nicholl took over.

By your argument Milan Mandaric had a good record of appointing managers at Portsmouth because he happened to get lucky with Redknapp at about the eighth attempt and ended up getting out of Portsmouth when they were a struggling Premiership club having taken over when they were struggling in the Championship.

The Merson appointment is a massive blemish on JB's record, but it needs to be set in context with what's gone before it and after it.

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:44 pm

Exile wrote:As a side issue, after our chairman of the time bought the land for the Bonser Retirement Fund the rent was GBP30,000 a year, a far cry from what it is now. Work out the compound increase - frightening, yet all market driven. What could Walsall have done with all that extra money over more than a decade, instead of having to pay and pay and pay?


Not a lot in my opinion. Wolves spent £70m under Hayward and it's got them, err, exactly where they started but with a newer ground and that figure dwarves what we have paid in rent.

Plenty of clubs have spent far far more than we could have done if not paying the rent and we still wouldn't have been able to compete with them.

It is a drawback though and if we can find a new owner with the best interests of the club at heart and lose the rent payments it will be a big step forward

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:00 pm

bangsection wrote:The Denglen fiasco is one of the murkiest episodes in modern football. The way our club was mercilessly asset stripped in the wake of Ramsden's departure should still be a point of contention now, but it has largely been forgotten - mainly because nobody in authority gave a toss what happened to football clubs in those days, especially unfashionable ones from the Black Country. Its legacy lives on, however, not only in our parlous financial state but also in the anodyne, identikit stadium that we had built for us with, let's be honest, a fraction of the Morrison's cash.

That's why people who actually remember what happened and are still angry enough to research it (great post Exile BTW) are so important to this board. Some of our younger fans probably have no idea what happened in the 80s and need educating. Whether they're bothered is another matter of course.

Apart from the stadium, our one other tangible reminder of Denglen is our old friend and benefactor (sic), the millionaire Jeffrey Bonser. Plastic Hawk deserves credit for trying to propose a solution to the freehold question but I agree with Dave that a buyout is probably beyond the means of the Trust. However, the fans should certainly start to attempt to try to open channels of communication with our owner. He has presided over one of the most successful periods in the club's history on and off the pitch. He has also become extremely wealthy in the process. What could be a better addition to this legacy than returning the freehold to the club? Because if he does sell the freehold to the highest bidder then he is effectively sentencing Walsall FC to another X years of starting every season with a massive financial handicap. But, again, this is speculation because, as ever, we don't know his intentions. I would argue that we need to establish just what he does plan to do with the freehold as soon as possible.

Jeff is clearly moving into the endgame at Walsall. As fans, it's never been more important for us to make our voices heard. Those who were around in 1989/90 couldn't prevent what was going on because they were kept in the dark. As fans - the most important people at Walsall FC bar none - it would be gross negligence to let the same thing happen again. We need to establish Bonser's intentions and then do everything we can to negotiate the most mutually beneficial scenario for his departure. Because Walsall FC will be here long after Jeff cashes in his pension fund.


A suggestion - Jeff sells the freehold to the club for what he paid for it (£200K?) but index-linked, dating from the date of said purchase, which would make it, what, half a million? Perhaps someone who has easy access to the government indexes could work it out?

Exile and bangsection - your posts, and those of others, should be archived in a separate section, as the Denglen business must NEVER be allowed to be swept under the carpet. Thinking about it - Maurice Miller is another reason I dislike Leeds United!

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:06 pm

i think you have a good point re. Merson bernie, although i actually think we are in the process of bouncing back extremely efficiently.

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:07 pm

....
Last edited by geoff skillet on Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Exile
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Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:32 pm

Quick reminder of the move from Fellows Park to Bescot:

Money IN:

GBP6,500,000 - sale of Fellows Park
GBP250,000 - council assistance grant

Money OUT:
GBP4,500,000 cost to purchase land and construct Bescot Stadium according to original project outline
GBP500,000 to Walsall Council to buy a few square metres of land that they owned to complete the FP sale (see the problem here - they give us a quarter mill and we give them double!)

By my ready reckoning there's a surplus of GBP1,750,000 there. What happened to it I don't know but we ended up with a stadium and no money, and Denglen, who were contracted to WFC as construction / project managers, ended up owning the land. That's the part that smells bad. Really bad.


Separately, Blower "and his board of directors" appointed Hibbitt - there's photos of JB and Hibbitt 'holding the scarf' at the time of his appointment (Summer 1990). Barrie Blower was still chairman at the time (resigned Autumn 1991), so maybe that's a sign of who was pulling the strings then, or perhaps Bazza was busy with the Housing Association.

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:46 pm

I would imagine a lot of money went into ensuring the land was safe to build on and not contamined after it was a sewerage works for so long. I'm sure this would account for the difference. ;) :D

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:51 pm

Magic Man Fan wrote:I would imagine a lot of money went into ensuring the land was safe to build on and not contamined after it was a sewerage works for so long. I'm sure this would account for the difference. ;) :D


I'm sure it wouldn't. If Walsall FC never owned the land (and they never have) why would our money have been used to play cleanup costs? I agree with you that it was a brownfield not greenfield site, but there was nothing in the way of industrial contamination on a grand scale, and (at worst) replacing a bit of topsoil isn't an explanation.

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:52 pm

Exile wrote:
Magic Man Fan wrote:I would imagine a lot of money went into ensuring the land was safe to build on and not contamined after it was a sewerage works for so long. I'm sure this would account for the difference. ;) :D


I'm sure it wouldn't.


:lol:

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:56 pm

Magic Man Fan wrote:
Exile wrote:
Magic Man Fan wrote:I would imagine a lot of money went into ensuring the land was safe to build on and not contamined after it was a sewerage works for so long. I'm sure this would account for the difference. ;) :D


I'm sure it wouldn't.


:lol:


Have I been wooshed? Dammit! :P

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Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:03 pm

Exile wrote:
Magic Man Fan wrote:
Exile wrote:
Magic Man Fan wrote:I would imagine a lot of money went into ensuring the land was safe to build on and not contamined after it was a sewerage works for so long. I'm sure this would account for the difference. ;) :D


I'm sure it wouldn't.


:lol:


Have I been wooshed? Dammit! :P


:D

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Exile
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Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:04 pm

Magic Man Fan wrote:
Exile wrote:Have I been wooshed? Dammit! :P


:D


Too serious for my own good some days!

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Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:29 pm

There's a great deal that could be said regarding the the sale of Fellows Park and the financing of Bescot. But it's best not said on here....at least that's what I'm told.

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Exile
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Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:36 am

Salop Saddler wrote:There's a great deal that could be said regarding the the sale of Fellows Park and the financing of Bescot. But it's best not said on here....at least that's what I'm told.


Ever since March 2000. March 14 if I remember correctly...

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Salop Saddler
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Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:42 pm

I concur.

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Re: Uncle Jeff's Leaving Do.

Thu May 15, 2008 12:28 pm

I agree. Its very interesting to see the points made by people a while back and see how they have changed and evolved.

As Pedogogue says, the issue must never be swept underneath the carpet. Our club is becoming stagnant and cold.

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