2017 General Election Thread

[Cowshed]

What has become dead clear is that Jeremy Corbyn is the kind of politician we thought no longer existed. He is led by conviction rather than populism. You can tell the areas where he has had to compromise to accommodate his party (e.g Trident) but he still won't associate his own beliefs with those compromises. Leads to some awkward interview moments but his heart and his convictions are worn very much on his sleeve. On Northern Ireland, his views are pretty well known (I think it was Mcguiness who described him as a "friend of Ireland and a friend of Derry" - I think we know what that friendship means).

Theresa May is far more like the politicians we've become used to since Thatcher went. Pragmatically trying to take a centre ground that will do just about enough to secure a slug of marginals whilst receiving nods of approval from the heartland. And when on occasion that tipping point has been over-reached, having no qualms about back-tracking.

It looked like a no-brainer when she was asking who we'd prefer to negotiate Brexit on our behalf a couple of weeks ago. It looks less so now. "Strong and stable" resonated a couple of weeks ago. It resonates less now.

The good news for our democracy is that it has got interesting. There's a contest and there's a clearer choice than we've had for decades. Good.

On the issue of principles that's all commendable but my dad is principled but he wouldn't make a good minister for state

Strong principles can stand in the way of wrong decisions

Corbyn has voted against every security measure

I want a leader who has principles but who also has the ability to put the principles to one side if it for the good of the country

Corbyn has not demonstrated to me he can do this

[PT]

And that Cowshed is why it is a good thing. Corbyn's voting record in parliament have been very consistent. Whether that be over matters of security, foreign policy, sexual equality or whatever. You know what you're getting and can make a choice as to whether you like it or not.

I don't know what Theresa May stands for. A remainer who has effortlessly picked up the Brexit baton, National Insurance increase for self employed back tracking, snap election back tracking, social care back tracking. I struggle to reconcile those things with "strong and stable" but they may be the very definition of diplomacy and therefore exactly what we need as we go into some very important negotiations.

[SaigonSaddler]

What has become dead clear is that Jeremy Corbyn is the kind of politician we thought no longer existed. He is led by conviction rather than populism. You can tell the areas where he has had to compromise to accommodate his party (e.g Trident) but he still won't associate his own beliefs with those compromises. Leads to some awkward interview moments but his heart and his convictions are worn very much on his sleeve. On Northern Ireland, his views are pretty well known (I think it was Mcguiness who described him as a "friend of Ireland and a friend of Derry" - I think we know what that friendship means).

Theresa May is far more like the politicians we've become used to since Thatcher went. Pragmatically trying to take a centre ground that will do just about enough to secure a slug of marginals whilst receiving nods of approval from the heartland. And when on occasion that tipping point has been over-reached, having no qualms about back-tracking.

It looked like a no-brainer when she was asking who we'd prefer to negotiate Brexit on our behalf a couple of weeks ago. It looks less so now. "Strong and stable" resonated a couple of weeks ago. It resonates less now.

The good news for our democracy is that it has got interesting. There's a contest and there's a clearer choice than we've had for decades. Good.

I agree with that. I'm surprised to be honest that the tories haven't already swept into a record lead but ... Theresa May. :oops:

The opportunistic U-turn on calling an election seems to be misjudged.
The tories will still win, but it's possible that May will be mortally wounded after it.
Corbyn's conviction and principles seem to have more appeal than anticipated.

Interesting times indeed.

[Exile]

Let's keep to the actual candidates
Now which of the candidates will not condemn the Ira

Not sure what you mean. Corbyn condemned the violence of both sides in the troubles.

Speaking of actual candidates, which one supports selling arms to governments with known terrorist sympathies? Which one launches a manifesto then U-turns straight away? Which one gave millions to a bloke who went to fight for ISIS? Which one has cut so many police, armed forces and civil service that UK security is compromised? Which one has the trillionaire hedge fund managing partner who profits from tax avoidance?

[shrewsbury saddler]

Saigon:"The tories will still win, but it's possible that May will be mortally wounded after it. "

I think it's a pretty safe bet this is the last election she'll lead a party into. WIth labour in such disarray it's an achievement of sorts to give them a chance of getting out of the election with some dignity. She'll resign for "personal reasons" after a couple of years. Before that, she'll be forced to ditch her sinister, unelected advisors.

[Cowshed]

Let's keep to the actual candidates
Now which of the candidates will not condemn the Ira

Not sure what you mean. Corbyn condemned the violence of both sides in the troubles.

Speaking of actual candidates, which one supports selling arms to governments with known terrorist sympathies? Which one launches a manifesto then U-turns straight away? Which one gave millions to a bloke who went to fight for ISIS? Which one has cut so many police, armed forces and civil service that UK security is compromised? Which one has the trillionaire hedge fund managing partner who profits from tax avoidance?

Hallelujah

Now we are concentrating on the personalities involved

Let's keep it relevant

[Cowshed]

And this could be our future Home Secretary.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/810261 ... -Marr-show

There are people who have made up their minds now

They want to just concentrate on the policy and turn a blind eye to the fact that they may elect Diane abbot to government

When they put a tick in the box they so wish it didn't benefit Diane Abbott be honest

She called brexit voters racist and now she wants their votes

Don't twist the knife swampy for people who are living with turning a blind eye

[SaigonSaddler]

Let's keep to the actual candidates
Now which of the candidates will not condemn the Ira

Not sure what you mean. Corbyn condemned the violence of both sides in the troubles.

Speaking of actual candidates, which one supports selling arms to governments with known terrorist sympathies? Which one launches a manifesto then U-turns straight away? Which one gave millions to a bloke who went to fight for ISIS? Which one has cut so many police, armed forces and civil service that UK security is compromised? Which one has the trillionaire hedge fund managing partner who profits from tax avoidance?

Gorra be Corb .... oh! :shock: :D

[PT]

And this could be our future Home Secretary.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/810261 ... -Marr-show

There are people who have made up their minds now

They want to just concentrate on the policy and turn a blind eye to the fact that they may elect Diane abbot to government

When they put a tick in the box they so wish it didn't benefit Diane Abbott be honest

She called brexit voters racist and now she wants their votes

Don't twist the knife swampy for people who are living with turning a blind eye

The trouble is that the Tory campaign seems to have reduced itself to one tactic which is to go for Corbyn. It is a Whitney of a tactic because it enables Labour to be pretty cack around the edges and get away with it. It is the Tories who have turned it into a question of "who do you trust between these pair?" and they have been arrogant enough to presume there can only be one answer.

Reducing the campaign to a binary choice of which person rather than which party is fit to govern means that tonight's head to head on the telly now carries a significance it shouldn't. Diane Abbot's clumsiness should be part of a continuation of a narrative that says that Labour are a joke, but it is getting lost because the Tories have decided it is simply a credibility choice between May and Corbyn. Tonight he will look calmer and more assured because he has a bedrock of conviction he is comfortable with. May will look evasive because she doesn't.

Interesting.

[SaigonSaddler]

And this could be our future Home Secretary.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/810261 ... -Marr-show

There are people who have made up their minds now

They want to just concentrate on the policy and turn a blind eye to the fact that they may elect Diane abbot to government

When they put a tick in the box they so wish it didn't benefit Diane Abbott be honest

She called brexit voters racist and now she wants their votes

Don't twist the knife swampy for people who are living with turning a blind eye

The trouble is that the Tory campaign seems to have reduced itself to one tactic which is to go for Corbyn. It is a Whitney of a tactic because it enables Labour to be pretty cack around the edges and get away with it. It is the Tories who have turned it into a question of "who do you trust between these pair?" and they have been arrogant enough to presume there can only be one answer.

Reducing the campaign to a binary choice of which person rather than which party is fit to govern means that tonight's head to head on the telly now carries a significance it shouldn't. Diane Abbot's clumsiness should be part of a continuation of a narrative that says that Labour are a joke, but it is getting lost because the Tories have decided it is simply a credibility choice between May and Corbyn. Tonight he will look calmer and more assured because he has a bedrock of conviction he is comfortable with. May will look evasive because she doesn't.

Interesting.

Exactly. Also the constant vilification of Corbyn has been hugely overplayed, some insisting that he was practically pulling triggers in Derry.
It doesn't take much to see through that nonsense, especially as he voted with David Davies and May at times when 'voting against security measures'.

The tories haven't done very well at all and their other main claim, that they are the only party to negotiate Brexit, is undermined.
May comes across as exposed and repetitive. I'm sure Boris and chums are licking their lips in anticipation of the fallout.

[chunkster]

And it's all change again after what the Scottish poison dwarf has said this morning :| there is no way that we can take a chance on a hung parliament letting corbyn in through the back door :|

[swampysaddler]

This entire thread just highlights what hypocrites Saigon and Exile are.
They were both in unison of berating Sound_Out for his backing of Corbyn but now they can't get far enough up the Comrade Corbyn's arse.
I can now expect at least a 24 hour ban, if not permanent, due to upsetting the apple cart.

[swampysaddler]

And these are the type of people Corbyn mixes with .

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/opinio ... -1-7977314

[SaigonSaddler]

This entire thread just highlights what hypocrites Saigon and Exile are.
They were both in unison of berating Sound_Out for his backing of Corbyn but now they can't get far enough up the Comrade Corbyn's arse.

:?:

:lol:

[swampysaddler]

This entire thread just highlights what hypocrites Saigon and Exile are.
They were both in unison of berating Sound_Out for his backing of Corbyn but now they can't get far enough up the Comrade Corbyn's arse.

:?:

:lol:

Do I really have to find the threads ?
Mind you probably been deleted just to save your Corbyn loving bacon.

[SaigonSaddler]

This entire thread just highlights what hypocrites Saigon and Exile are.
They were both in unison of berating Sound_Out for his backing of Corbyn but now they can't get far enough up the Comrade Corbyn's arse.

:?:

:lol:

Do I really have to find the threads ?
Mind you probably been deleted just to save your Corbyn loving bacon.

:? :?:

:lol:

[swampysaddler]

This from Boris 2 days ago.......................
I genuinely think it is important that people know this and a picture says it all.
Jeremy Corbyn’s lies have been exposed by his own shadow home secretary. Just hours after Corbyn claimed he had never met the IRA, Diane Abbott says he did – and she disgracefully sought to defend it.
It is increasingly clear that Jeremy Corbyn will make up anything in an attempt to mislead voters. He’s pretending he didn’t support the IRA, just like he is pretending he won’t raise taxes and pretending he will replace our Trident nuclear deterrent.
The risks of Jeremy Corbyn becoming Prime Minister, in charge of our Brexit negotiations and our security, are enormous.
And Jeremy Corbyn would make Diane Abbott Home Secretary – putting a woman who refused to outlaw al-Qaeda and wants open door immigration in charge of our security and our borders. Only a vote for Theresa May and the Conservatives will stop this happening.

The picture in question is Corbyn sat behind McGuiness on one of his rallies.

[SaigonSaddler]

This from Boris 2 days ago.......................
I genuinely think it is important that people know this and a picture says it all.
Jeremy Corbyn’s lies have been exposed by his own shadow home secretary. Just hours after Corbyn claimed he had never met the IRA, Diane Abbott says he did – and she disgracefully sought to defend it.
It is increasingly clear that Jeremy Corbyn will make up anything in an attempt to mislead voters. He’s pretending he didn’t support the IRA, just like he is pretending he won’t raise taxes and pretending he will replace our Trident nuclear deterrent.
The risks of Jeremy Corbyn becoming Prime Minister, in charge of our Brexit negotiations and our security, are enormous.
And Jeremy Corbyn would make Diane Abbott Home Secretary – putting a woman who refused to outlaw al-Qaeda and wants open door immigration in charge of our security and our borders. Only a vote for Theresa May and the Conservatives will stop this happening.

The picture in question is Corbyn sat behind McGuiness on one of his rallies.

Repetitious, tenuous hatchet job on Corbyn, harking back to what, 22 years ago, masking the fact that the self-servatives have nothing positive to offer the British electorate. And this from Boris, so not even from anyone with any credence.

YAWN

[swampysaddler]

This from Boris 2 days ago.......................
I genuinely think it is important that people know this and a picture says it all.
Jeremy Corbyn’s lies have been exposed by his own shadow home secretary. Just hours after Corbyn claimed he had never met the IRA, Diane Abbott says he did – and she disgracefully sought to defend it.
It is increasingly clear that Jeremy Corbyn will make up anything in an attempt to mislead voters. He’s pretending he didn’t support the IRA, just like he is pretending he won’t raise taxes and pretending he will replace our Trident nuclear deterrent.
The risks of Jeremy Corbyn becoming Prime Minister, in charge of our Brexit negotiations and our security, are enormous.
And Jeremy Corbyn would make Diane Abbott Home Secretary – putting a woman who refused to outlaw al-Qaeda and wants open door immigration in charge of our security and our borders. Only a vote for Theresa May and the Conservatives will stop this happening.

The picture in question is Corbyn sat behind McGuiness on one of his rallies.

Repetitious, tenuous hatchet job on Corbyn, harking back to what, 22 years ago, masking the fact that the self-servatives have nothing positive to offer the British electorate. And this from Boris, so not even from anyone with any credence.

YAWN

Bit like the majority of your posts.

[PT]

The problem of the Corbyn/IRA connection as a subject for concentrated smear by the Conservatives is that a lot of people in England and Wales never got the nature of the conflict in Northern Ireland at the time and therefore are unlikely to be emotionally led by it over twenty years on. That Corbyn welcomed characters into the heart of the British establishment twenty years before the British establishment welcomed the same characters into the heart of the British establishment makes it an even more blurry issue to go for the jugular on.

Fifteen minutes before the telly debate ( not that it is a debate) and I reckon one candidate will be bricking it and the other relishing it.

I'm looking forward to it.

[swampysaddler]

The problem of the Corbyn/IRA connection as a subject for concentrated smear by the Conservatives is that a lot of people in England and Wales never got the nature of the conflict in Northern Ireland at the time and therefore are unlikely to be emotionally led by it over twenty years on. That Corbyn welcomed characters into the heart of the British establishment twenty years before the British establishment welcomed the same characters into the heart of the British establishment makes it an even more blurry issue to go for the jugular on.

Fifteen minutes before the telly debate ( not that it is a debate) and I reckon one candidate will be bricking it and the other relishing it.

I'm looking forward to it.

I get the nature of the conflict in Northern Ireland.
Try 8 times putting my life on hold, telling my partner I was going there again.
And then sitting there ,regular as clockwork, on a Saturday night in South Armagh whilst one the local scum from the council estate would ride by on his moped taking shots at our tanks of aircraft fuel.
Hence my contempt towards Jeremy Corbyn.
This is a man who called IRA killers "freedom fighters".

[chunkster]

The problem of the Corbyn/IRA connection as a subject for concentrated smear by the Conservatives is that a lot of people in England and Wales never got the nature of the conflict in Northern Ireland at the time and therefore are unlikely to be emotionally led by it over twenty years on. That Corbyn welcomed characters into the heart of the British establishment twenty years before the British establishment welcomed the same characters into the heart of the British establishment makes it an even more blurry issue to go for the jugular on.

Fifteen minutes before the telly debate ( not that it is a debate) and I reckon one candidate will be bricking it and the other relishing it.

I'm looking forward to it.

I get the nature of the conflict in Northern Ireland.
Try 8 times putting my life on hold, telling my partner I was going there again.
And then sitting there ,regular as clockwork, on a Saturday night in South Armagh whilst one the local scum from the council estate would ride by on his moped taking shots at our tanks of aircraft fuel.
Hence my contempt towards Jeremy Corbyn.
This is a man who called IRA killers "freedom fighters".

my best mate did a few tours, he has still got what he calls his northern ireland gloves :wink:

[swampysaddler]

The problem of the Corbyn/IRA connection as a subject for concentrated smear by the Conservatives is that a lot of people in England and Wales never got the nature of the conflict in Northern Ireland at the time and therefore are unlikely to be emotionally led by it over twenty years on. That Corbyn welcomed characters into the heart of the British establishment twenty years before the British establishment welcomed the same characters into the heart of the British establishment makes it an even more blurry issue to go for the jugular on.

Fifteen minutes before the telly debate ( not that it is a debate) and I reckon one candidate will be bricking it and the other relishing it.

I'm looking forward to it.

I get the nature of the conflict in Northern Ireland.
Try 8 times putting my life on hold, telling my partner I was going there again.
And then sitting there ,regular as clockwork, on a Saturday night in South Armagh whilst one the local scum from the council estate would ride by on his moped taking shots at our tanks of aircraft fuel.
Hence my contempt towards Jeremy Corbyn.
This is a man who called IRA killers "freedom fighters".

my best mate did a few tours, he has still got what he calls his northern ireland gloves :wink:

Being a Supplier by trade I was never short of my NI Gloves.
Even used them for refuelling helicopters :mrgreen:

[PT]

The problem of the Corbyn/IRA connection as a subject for concentrated smear by the Conservatives is that a lot of people in England and Wales never got the nature of the conflict in Northern Ireland at the time and therefore are unlikely to be emotionally led by it over twenty years on. That Corbyn welcomed characters into the heart of the British establishment twenty years before the British establishment welcomed the same characters into the heart of the British establishment makes it an even more blurry issue to go for the jugular on.

Fifteen minutes before the telly debate ( not that it is a debate) and I reckon one candidate will be bricking it and the other relishing it.

I'm looking forward to it.

I get the nature of the conflict in Northern Ireland.
Try 8 times putting my life on hold, telling my partner I was going there again.
And then sitting there ,regular as clockwork, on a Saturday night in South Armagh whilst one the local scum from the council estate would ride by on his moped taking shots at our tanks of aircraft fuel.
Hence my contempt towards Jeremy Corbyn.
This is a man who called IRA killers "freedom fighters".

I know you do. And I know all those who served do. And I get the contempt for someone who was at best sympathetic to the Republican cause. I spent a lot of time there during the Troubles too for different reasons. Which is why I feel qualified to state that "a lot" of people in England and Wales didn't get it at the time and less so now.

I know South Armagh well. It is a beautiful place with an ugly history. And when I visit there these days thankfully its beauty prevails. In the towns, the flags on the lamp posts and the colours of the kerbstones remain reminders of which tribal territory I'm in but it feels nothing like the war zone it once did. Similarly in the bigger cities when I walked up The Falls or through the Bogside 25 years ago I felt that a misplaced word could be my last, these days you can't move for tour buses with folk taking pictures of the murals.

All that aside, my point in this thread is that there are a very small minority of people in England, Wales and Scotland who were directly affected by The Troubles in the way you were. With Northern Ireland getting close to normalised, for most it is a historic conflict that they never really understood in the first place. So for the Tories to hone in on Corbyn's take on that conflict feels like a play in the margins rather than talking to issues that most find relevant today.

Anyway - you'll be glad to see that May is actually faring well on the telly thing so far. Better than I thought she would anyway.

[swampysaddler]

The problem of the Corbyn/IRA connection as a subject for concentrated smear by the Conservatives is that a lot of people in England and Wales never got the nature of the conflict in Northern Ireland at the time and therefore are unlikely to be emotionally led by it over twenty years on. That Corbyn welcomed characters into the heart of the British establishment twenty years before the British establishment welcomed the same characters into the heart of the British establishment makes it an even more blurry issue to go for the jugular on.

Fifteen minutes before the telly debate ( not that it is a debate) and I reckon one candidate will be bricking it and the other relishing it.

I'm looking forward to it.

I get the nature of the conflict in Northern Ireland.
Try 8 times putting my life on hold, telling my partner I was going there again.
And then sitting there ,regular as clockwork, on a Saturday night in South Armagh whilst one the local scum from the council estate would ride by on his moped taking shots at our tanks of aircraft fuel.
Hence my contempt towards Jeremy Corbyn.
This is a man who called IRA killers "freedom fighters".

I know you do. And I know all those who served do. And I get the contempt for someone who was at best sympathetic to the Republican cause. I spent a lot of time there during the Troubles too for different reasons. Which is why I feel qualified to state that "a lot" of people in England and Wales didn't get it at the time and less so now.

I know South Armagh well. It is a beautiful place with an ugly history. And when I visit there these days thankfully its beauty prevails. In the towns, the flags on the lamp posts and the colours of the kerbstones remain reminders of which tribal territory I'm in but it feels nothing like the war zone it once did. Similarly in the bigger cities when I walked up The Falls or through the Bogside 25 years ago I felt that a misplaced word could be my last, these days you can't move for tour buses with folk taking pictures of the murals.

All that aside, my point in this thread is that there are a very small minority of people in England, Wales and Scotland who were directly affected by The Troubles in the way you were. With Northern Ireland getting close to normalised, for most it is a historic conflict that they never really understood in the first place. So for the Tories to hone in on Corbyn's take on that conflict feels like a play in the margins rather than talking to issues that most find relevant today.

Anyway - you'll be glad to see that May is actually faring well on the telly thing so far. Better than I thought she would anyway.

Northern Ireland is one the most gorgeous countries I have been to.
The Tories are playing at Labour's achilles heel, Corbyn's love for Gerry Adams and Labour would do exactly the same if the shoe was on the other foot.

[Cully]

My judgement, easy win by Teresa May. The one huge difference is that he is definitely no leader of men, no wonder the majority of his party want to get rid of him. One of the most unconvincing politicians I have ever seen, back sliding and reduced to repeating rehearsed adlibs, dead man walking.


:D

[SaigonSaddler]

The problem of the Corbyn/IRA connection as a subject for concentrated smear by the Conservatives is that a lot of people in England and Wales never got the nature of the conflict in Northern Ireland at the time and therefore are unlikely to be emotionally led by it over twenty years on. That Corbyn welcomed characters into the heart of the British establishment twenty years before the British establishment welcomed the same characters into the heart of the British establishment makes it an even more blurry issue to go for the jugular on.

Fifteen minutes before the telly debate ( not that it is a debate) and I reckon one candidate will be bricking it and the other relishing it.

I'm looking forward to it.

I get the nature of the conflict in Northern Ireland.
Try 8 times putting my life on hold, telling my partner I was going there again.
And then sitting there ,regular as clockwork, on a Saturday night in South Armagh whilst one the local scum from the council estate would ride by on his moped taking shots at our tanks of aircraft fuel.
Hence my contempt towards Jeremy Corbyn.
This is a man who called IRA killers "freedom fighters".

I know you do. And I know all those who served do. And I get the contempt for someone who was at best sympathetic to the Republican cause. I spent a lot of time there during the Troubles too for different reasons. Which is why I feel qualified to state that "a lot" of people in England and Wales didn't get it at the time and less so now.

I know South Armagh well. It is a beautiful place with an ugly history. And when I visit there these days thankfully its beauty prevails. In the towns, the flags on the lamp posts and the colours of the kerbstones remain reminders of which tribal territory I'm in but it feels nothing like the war zone it once did. Similarly in the bigger cities when I walked up The Falls or through the Bogside 25 years ago I felt that a misplaced word could be my last, these days you can't move for tour buses with folk taking pictures of the murals.

All that aside, my point in this thread is that there are a very small minority of people in England, Wales and Scotland who were directly affected by The Troubles in the way you were. With Northern Ireland getting close to normalised, for most it is a historic conflict that they never really understood in the first place. So for the Tories to hone in on Corbyn's take on that conflict feels like a play in the margins rather than talking to issues that most find relevant today.

Anyway - you'll be glad to see that May is actually faring well on the telly thing so far. Better than I thought she would anyway.

She took a few hits from Paxo on all the U turns she's done, more than I recalled, a 'blow-hard that collapses at the first sound of gunfire'. Did she actually answer a question? Responses seemed populated with the usual soundbites. She did ok though overall, apart from the NHS and social care questions of course.

Probably the first time people will have seen the real Corbyn, rather than the alleged monster from behind the media headlines. I think he was assured and confident, he's obviously a man of conviction. Paxo was forceful with some questions, and I would have preferred a more clinical answer to the hypothetical Jihadi John in the desert. He's gone from utterly unelectable to actually prime-ministerial, so I think he actually keeps profiting from the personal abuse as it becomes more spurious and forced.

[SaigonSaddler]

My judgement, easy win by Teresa May. The one huge difference is that he is definitely no leader of men, no wonder the majority of his party want to get rid of him. One of the most unconvincing politicians I have ever seen, back sliding and reduced to repeating rehearsed adlibs, dead man walking

Nah, blue-tinted specs firmly on there Cully. The more exposure he gets, the less of an imbecile he appears, which is a change from where we were before the election was called. He's actually got warmth too, which May lacks.

Probably why the polls have closed. If the tories keep banging on about his alleged faults instead of offering anything positive, then they might have gone through all this for a very insubstantial gain in seats.

[Cully]

I've never seen him portrayed as a monster, blaming the press? no need, blame the man. 'the less of an imbecile he appears' - :lol: blimey who needs the press when he's got you loyally by his side.

[SaigonSaddler]

I've never seen him portrayed as a monster, blaming the press? no need, blame the man. 'the less of an imbecile he appears' - :lol: blimey who needs the press when he's got you loyally by his side.

Predictable analysis there, suppose it comes from tribal loyalty or something. Can't think of many dimwit tory rags that haven't accused him of some hideous crime on a daily basis, some of which seemed have traction before the election, but it seems we're in very different waters now.

A lot closer at this stage than I suspected it would be.