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Pietersen - New England Captain

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Neuromantic
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Pietersen - New England Captain

Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:40 pm

Superb News. Thoughts ?

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SaddlerSteve
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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:43 pm

Talented batsmen but as a captain i think he'll have to change his attitude and engage his brain.
Not sure if he can do it.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:51 pm

Well done the South African

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:38 pm

Lets be honest, he was the only who could do it. The only other option for me was Strauss, but he has only just come back! May be good to see a bit of aggressive cricket again!

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:39 pm

I think he will be very successful. He is a big fans favourite and i think some members of the squad already look up to him

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:43 pm

Mmmm...

Atherton struggled with the bat when made captain
Vaughan struggled with bat when made captain

lets hope Pietersen doesnt otherwise we could be in for a few defeats

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:49 pm

Not sure, the problem was there were no real other alternatives if you want to have the same captain across all forms of the game, it could be inspired, it could be a disaster, who knows! Jury is out for me but of course he get's my full support.

Really enjoyed Saturday at Edgbaston, despite the result, I love cricket, especially test match cricket, it's ace

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:50 pm

saddlerken wrote:Not sure, the problem was there were no real other alternatives if you want to have the same captain across all forms of the game, it could be inspired, it could be a disaster, who knows! Jury is out for me but of course he get's my full support.

Really enjoyed Saturday at Edgbaston, despite the result, I love cricket, especially test match cricket, it's ace


I agree.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:09 pm

Sad reflection on English sport....................can't find a English leader in either cricket or footy.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:19 am

SaddlerSteve wrote:Talented batsmen but as a captain i think he'll have to change his attitude and engage his brain.
Not sure if he can do it.


In one.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:46 am

Wednesbury Saddler METFAN wrote:Superb News. Thoughts ?


I don't think there was an avalanche of contenders in the current squad to contest him to be honest.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:52 am

Neil Ravenscroft wrote:
SaddlerSteve wrote:Talented batsmen but as a captain i think he'll have to change his attitude and engage his brain.
Not sure if he can do it.


In one.


Not sure on what grounds you can state so categorically his attitude is wrong or he doesn't engage his brain. He is the fittest member of the side, he practices the most, his statistics are the best, and the greats of the game, Warne, Ponting, Lara etc, can't speak too highly of him.

The only plausible argument the anti-KP brigade are making is will the captaincy damage his batting? Time will tell. In the case of Ponting and the Sri Lankan captain, captaincy made them better.

Atherton has summed it up nicely in The Times today:

What do you make of Kevin Pietersen's appointment?
It's a gamble. Kevin is a great cricketer, has an excellent attitude towards training and his preparation for games and will lead the side enthusiastically and well. The only question mark will be over whether he will be able to maintain his form with the added pressure of the captaincy.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:26 am

supersaddler85 wrote:Mmmm...

Atherton struggled with the bat when made captain
Vaughan struggled with bat when made captain

lets hope Pietersen doesnt otherwise we could be in for a few defeats


He actually averaged more when captain than he did when not captain.

I think Pietersen has a similar kind of attitude to Athers, but having said that, I am 'unsure' about the appointment, but other than Rob Key and an out-of-form Strauss, I'm not sure that there was anyone else who could have done it long term.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:10 pm

admin wrote:
Neil Ravenscroft wrote:
SaddlerSteve wrote:Talented batsmen but as a captain i think he'll have to change his attitude and engage his brain.
Not sure if he can do it.


In one.


Not sure on what grounds you can state so categorically his attitude is wrong or he doesn't engage his brain. He is the fittest member of the side, he practices the most, his statistics are the best, and the greats of the game, Warne, Ponting, Lara etc, can't speak too highly of him.

The only plausible argument the anti-KP brigade are making is will the captaincy damage his batting? Time will tell. In the case of Ponting and the Sri Lankan captain, captaincy made them better.

Atherton has summed it up nicely in The Times today:

What do you make of Kevin Pietersen's appointment?
It's a gamble. Kevin is a great cricketer, has an excellent attitude towards training and his preparation for games and will lead the side enthusiastically and well. The only question mark will be over whether he will be able to maintain his form with the added pressure of the captaincy.


Because he's one of the most selfish players I've seen in many a long year. I just don't think he's a team player, which is why, to use him at his best at four or five, you need a Geoffrey Boycott at 3 and a Ken Barrington at 5 or 6. We don't have them.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:22 pm

Why isn't he a team player? And why is he selfish...What grounds are there for these descriptions?

These are extraordinary statements that are contradicted by the facts and figures. KP's performances in the last 3 years are made more remarkably by the batting inconsistencies of those around him - yet those on his back ignore the failing of Strauss, Cook, Bell, Vaughan, and Collingwood to demand even higher achievements from KP. I think a lot of it stems from a refusal from some media/fans to accept him in the England team with his South African origins, and also because he did not initially conform to the hitherto stereotype of an England cricketer... You've got a guy here who is taking the game to new heights, witness the switch-hit which is a very clever and astute response to negative spin bowling. You ask the 20,000+ who come to the Oval this week who their favourite player is, and whether they think he is selfish and not a team man...

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:51 pm

admin wrote:Why isn't he a team player? And why is he selfish...What grounds are there for these descriptions?

These are extraordinary statements that are contradicted by the facts and figures. KP's performances in the last 3 years are made more remarkably by the batting inconsistencies of those around him - yet those on his back ignore the failing of Strauss, Cook, Bell, Vaughan, and Collingwood to demand even higher achievements from KP. I think a lot of it stems from a refusal from some media/fans to accept him in the England team with his South African origins, and also because he did not initially conform to the hitherto stereotype of an England cricketer... You've got a guy here who is taking the game to new heights, witness the switch-hit which is a very clever and astute response to negative spin bowling. You ask the 20,000+ who come to the Oval this week who their favourite player is, and whether they think he is selfish and not a team man...


Under the laws of the game, that's illegal, isn't it? Batsman changing his stance before the delivery? It's also, in the immortal words of Don Bradman, one more way to get out. I'm sorry, but Pietersen does not play with the needs of the team formost in his mind - otherwise he would not have got out for 94 on Saturday playing his third risky shot of the over when the match situation demanded his presence at stumps. Unless he can change that mind set, I just don't see him as Captaincy material. He is our best batsman - by some considerable distance - but that does NOT make him our best possible Captain.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:00 pm

God will everyone stop moaning and get behind the lads!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

On a serious note, I dont think he is the man for the job, but like has been said who is the man for the job in that lineup? ideally you want to give it to someone who can skipper the side in all 3 forms of the game so where does that leave us?

Pietersen?
Bell?
Flintoff?
Ambrose?
Collingwood?
Anderson?

Do any of those names leap out? Had flintoff been fit and playing as well as he can the last 2 years I think perhaps he would have got the job, but it would be unfair and unwise to put that pressure on him at the minute. Of that list I would have probably taken a gamble on Ian Bell, I think he is a cricketer that has got bags of ability and if selectors stick with him will become more consistent

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:19 pm

Gaz the Train wrote:Of that list I would have probably taken a gamble on Ian Bell, I think he is a cricketer that has got bags of ability and if selectors stick with him will become more consistent


Of any of the players who will benefit from this appointment, I think it will be Bell as it is well known that Pietersen likes him as a person and as a batting partner. I'd imagine that this will be the moment when Bell rises to new levels of responsibility within the squad. As I stated in the Third Test thread, he rarely sticks his head above the trench and drags the team with him. He needs to start doing that, particularly with the absence of Vaughan and the potential for Strauss to lose his place again to an inform batsmen such as Rob Key who will surely come into the reckoning seeing as he was the 2nd choice for the captaincy.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:33 pm

Jorge14 wrote:
Gaz the Train wrote:Of that list I would have probably taken a gamble on Ian Bell, I think he is a cricketer that has got bags of ability and if selectors stick with him will become more consistent


Of any of the players who will benefit from this appointment, I think it will be Bell as it is well known that Pietersen likes him as a person and as a batting partner. I'd imagine that this will be the moment when Bell rises to new levels of responsibility within the squad. As I stated in the Third Test thread, he rarely sticks his head above the trench and drags the team with him. He needs to start doing that, particularly with the absence of Vaughan and the potential for Strauss to lose his place again to an inform batsmen such as Rob Key who will surely come into the reckoning seeing as he was the 2nd choice for the captaincy.


Hence my suggestion, I think putting him in that position where he has to open his mouth and lead by example would help him as a player, and I think if he were in the position where he had to lead, would do a good job of it

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:33 pm

Neil Ravenscroft wrote:
admin wrote:Why isn't he a team player? And why is he selfish...What grounds are there for these descriptions?

These are extraordinary statements that are contradicted by the facts and figures. KP's performances in the last 3 years are made more remarkably by the batting inconsistencies of those around him - yet those on his back ignore the failing of Strauss, Cook, Bell, Vaughan, and Collingwood to demand even higher achievements from KP. I think a lot of it stems from a refusal from some media/fans to accept him in the England team with his South African origins, and also because he did not initially conform to the hitherto stereotype of an England cricketer... You've got a guy here who is taking the game to new heights, witness the switch-hit which is a very clever and astute response to negative spin bowling. You ask the 20,000+ who come to the Oval this week who their favourite player is, and whether they think he is selfish and not a team man...


Under the laws of the game, that's illegal, isn't it? Batsman changing his stance before the delivery? It's also, in the immortal words of Don Bradman, one more way to get out. I'm sorry, but Pietersen does not play with the needs of the team formost in his mind - otherwise he would not have got out for 94 on Saturday playing his third risky shot of the over when the match situation demanded his presence at stumps. Unless he can change that mind set, I just don't see him as Captaincy material. He is our best batsman - by some considerable distance - but that does NOT make him our best possible Captain.


No. There si nothing in the laws regarding a batsmen changing his stance after a bowler starts his run up.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:52 pm

HKSaddler wrote:
Neil Ravenscroft wrote:
admin wrote:Why isn't he a team player? And why is he selfish...What grounds are there for these descriptions?

These are extraordinary statements that are contradicted by the facts and figures. KP's performances in the last 3 years are made more remarkably by the batting inconsistencies of those around him - yet those on his back ignore the failing of Strauss, Cook, Bell, Vaughan, and Collingwood to demand even higher achievements from KP. I think a lot of it stems from a refusal from some media/fans to accept him in the England team with his South African origins, and also because he did not initially conform to the hitherto stereotype of an England cricketer... You've got a guy here who is taking the game to new heights, witness the switch-hit which is a very clever and astute response to negative spin bowling. You ask the 20,000+ who come to the Oval this week who their favourite player is, and whether they think he is selfish and not a team man...


Under the laws of the game, that's illegal, isn't it? Batsman changing his stance before the delivery? It's also, in the immortal words of Don Bradman, one more way to get out. I'm sorry, but Pietersen does not play with the needs of the team formost in his mind - otherwise he would not have got out for 94 on Saturday playing his third risky shot of the over when the match situation demanded his presence at stumps. Unless he can change that mind set, I just don't see him as Captaincy material. He is our best batsman - by some considerable distance - but that does NOT make him our best possible Captain.


No. There si nothing in the laws regarding a batsmen changing his stance after a bowler starts his run up.


I would like to think that I am this board's potentialy the best to answer this point Neil and HKS is spot on. There is nothing in the laws of the game that prevents a batter from changing grip.

As to whether a batter is left handed or right handed is vital to the laws of the game. Pitching outside leg stump for LBW or the number of fielders behind square on the leg side at the instant of delivery being two cases in point. Cricket law dictates that the hand of the batter is decided by his stance at the point in time that the bowler begins his run up. If he so chooses to change during the run up or the delivery it does not change which is leg and off side. That is all.

There are number of batters world wide who often switch hit these days

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:16 am

Jeremy Busby wrote:
HKSaddler wrote:
Neil Ravenscroft wrote:
admin wrote:Why isn't he a team player? And why is he selfish...What grounds are there for these descriptions?

These are extraordinary statements that are contradicted by the facts and figures. KP's performances in the last 3 years are made more remarkably by the batting inconsistencies of those around him - yet those on his back ignore the failing of Strauss, Cook, Bell, Vaughan, and Collingwood to demand even higher achievements from KP. I think a lot of it stems from a refusal from some media/fans to accept him in the England team with his South African origins, and also because he did not initially conform to the hitherto stereotype of an England cricketer... You've got a guy here who is taking the game to new heights, witness the switch-hit which is a very clever and astute response to negative spin bowling. You ask the 20,000+ who come to the Oval this week who their favourite player is, and whether they think he is selfish and not a team man...


Under the laws of the game, that's illegal, isn't it? Batsman changing his stance before the delivery? It's also, in the immortal words of Don Bradman, one more way to get out. I'm sorry, but Pietersen does not play with the needs of the team formost in his mind - otherwise he would not have got out for 94 on Saturday playing his third risky shot of the over when the match situation demanded his presence at stumps. Unless he can change that mind set, I just don't see him as Captaincy material. He is our best batsman - by some considerable distance - but that does NOT make him our best possible Captain.


No. There si nothing in the laws regarding a batsmen changing his stance after a bowler starts his run up.


I would like to think that I am this board's potentialy the best to answer this point Neil and HKS is spot on. There is nothing in the laws of the game that prevents a batter from changing grip.

As to whether a batter is left handed or right handed is vital to the laws of the game. Pitching outside leg stump for LBW or the number of fielders behind square on the leg side at the instant of delivery being two cases in point. Cricket law dictates that the hand of the batter is decided by his stance at the point in time that the bowler begins his run up. If he so chooses to change during the run up or the delivery it does not change which is leg and off side. That is all.

There are number of batters world wide who often switch hit these days


In one dayers - that's my point about him - there's very, very few who do it in a vital test match and, I suspect a mere handful when the game was in the position it was.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:15 am

I actually think that Pietersen switch hitting in a test match is really quite refreshing.

Consider our batting order in the last test match other than Pietersen.

Strauss - stratching his way back to form. Wafting outside his offstump and generally looking very unsure of himself as a batsman.
Cook - Conservative and plays to his percentages.
Vaughan - Again, stratching his way back towards any sort of form. So low in confidence it was a genuine concern.
Bell - The more attacking version of Cook. Plays to his percentages.
Collingwood - Nervous as anything before his second innings knock. Only came out of his rut by playing an attacking game.
Flintoff - Again, no real kind of form. Reluctant to attack until he HAD to.

Would we want any of those players above playing a switch hit? No. Does the fact that Pietersen is in form enough to play it and has the ability to play it bloody well mean that it should count against him as a captain? No. I can appreciate why Neil and others have reservations about our most attacking and flair batsman being the man responsible for the whole show - but I think that can be as much a positive as a negative.

Whilst we are on the subject, I wouldn't at all be surprised if we get a Botham/Emburey situation with Pietersen and Vaughan in next years Ashes, particularly if we are one down after a couple of tests.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:50 am

Jorge14 wrote:I wouldn't at all be surprised if we get a Botham/Emburey situation with Pietersen and Vaughan in next years Ashes, particularly if we are one down after a couple of tests.


What happened with Botham and Emburey?

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:19 pm

saddlerken wrote:
Jorge14 wrote:I wouldn't at all be surprised if we get a Botham/Emburey situation with Pietersen and Vaughan in next years Ashes, particularly if we are one down after a couple of tests.


What happened with Botham and Emburey?


I think he means Botham and Brearley. In the 1981 Ashes, Botham got the sack (thank God) after 2 tests, with us 1 - 0 down in the series and he was playing like a drain. Brearley came back, we followed on at Headingley, Botham got 149 in thesecond innings, Willis took 8 for not very many and we won. Botham then took 5 - 14 at Edgbaston to win the match when all looked lost and scored one of the great test centuries at Old Trafford to also help win the match. We won the series.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:29 pm

Neil Ravenscroft wrote:
saddlerken wrote:
Jorge14 wrote:I wouldn't at all be surprised if we get a Botham/Emburey situation with Pietersen and Vaughan in next years Ashes, particularly if we are one down after a couple of tests.


What happened with Botham and Emburey?


I think he means Botham and Brearley. In the 1981 Ashes, Botham got the sack (thank God) after 2 tests, with us 1 - 0 down in the series and he was playing like a drain. Brearley came back, we followed on at Headingley, Botham got 149 in thesecond innings, Willis took 8 for not very many and we won. Botham then took 5 - 14 at Edgbaston to win the match when all looked lost and scored one of the great test centuries at Old Trafford to also help win the match. We won the series.


I see

Can't see Vaughan ever wanting it again though but for 2 or 3 tests as a one off I guess he'd consider it

How long was Botham captain for?

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:01 pm

12 Tests in 1980 and 1981, 8 draws and 4 losses. Never won a game as Captain and his personal form at the time as absolutely dire. You need to look up the 1981 Ashes series on t'internet (Wikipedia) for example and also look at the farce of the Centenary test match whe the Lord's crowd were ready to lynch him because of a reluctance to play after rain breaks.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:01 pm

I think the whole Botham/Pietersen comparison is a bit of a white elephant as Pietersen is a specialist Batsman, whereas Botham was relied upon to Bowl and Bat. Together with the role of captaincy it was too much for him, I think its very much different in Pietersen's case. A comparison between Botham and Flintoff would be clearer and valid.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:15 pm

Ned_Kelly wrote:Well done the South African


I agree.

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Re: Pietersen - New England Captain

Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:07 pm

Magic Man Fan wrote:
Ned_Kelly wrote:Well done the South African


I agree.

He is south african and not english , but he is proud to be playing international cricket for england. Im a big kp fan i think he will do well as england captain.

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