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Uncle Jeff's Leaving Do.

Threads that have run on UpTheSaddlers that might or might not be worth keeping...
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Duke
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Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:03 pm

philthesaddler wrote:But WFCNIL, thats the way opinions are going to be. When there isn't anyone else to compare Bonser too, opinions will not be formed by matter of whether the club is successful compared to previous periods in history, but rather the minutae and the could-have-beens.

Whatsmore, saying this is our most successful period in history is unfair, there was a time when we regularly attracted over 12,000 to games.

Granted, we've been comparatively stable over the last 17 or so years, but thats been in the interest of Jeff Bonser - a perpetual state of mediocraty - he knows we'll keep turning up, and he doesn't have to pump any cash in. We arguably aren't a much better club than we were when we moved to Bescot, our attendances and PR are marginally better, but we aren't any richer financially despite a huge off the field operation. We've had a brief spell in the division above, which left us with a severe hangover - so if the question is: Has Jeff Bonser taken us forward, improved our PR and attendances and geared us up for life in the division above, then the answer is no.


yes i remember those days well , at the same time clubs like Wolves , Villa , Blues and Albion were attracting gates of between 40.000 and 50, 000 do the now .
by success i mean 1 championship , 1 Runner -up finish 1 Play off victory
3 season in the second tier of english football.
Bonser as his faults , he's made errors but by and large he's done a bloody good job.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:06 pm

Registered Saddler wrote:Four promotions and only our second piece of silverware ever is certainly not mediocre.


It most certainly is. How many teams that are currently in Leagues 1 and 2 have spent the last 18 years bobbing up and down between those two divisions. Many of them will have had short, successful periods in the championship [Swindon, Crewe, Huddersfield, Millwall, Port Vale etc] - we've done the same.

What we havent done however is go forwards, to take the club forwards, to get our attendances up, to get a better infrastructure. JB has kept us in this state of mediocraty because it suits the way he runs the club.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:07 pm

Ego Sum Ego Existo wrote:
Burnside wrote:Tripe.

Says the young lad who thinks money grows on trees and that we should spend what we haven't got.

I tell you what.

Never mind trying to remember 18-19 years ago when you were messing nappies up and playing in your high chair, think 4 or 5 ago when we over spent in the championship and are just recovering.

For gods sake. Thats not tripe it is in your face TRUTH


Where did I say we should spend money we havent got? INventing stuff to back yourself up? tut tut. Please dont call me a young lad andf patronise me, because I will run rings around you.

Explain the VSA for me please.


:lol:

Maybe you should, in fact, remind him that we did spend money we didn't have before ITV digital went bust

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:09 pm

Ego Sum Ego Existo wrote:
Burnside wrote:Tripe.

Says the young lad who thinks money grows on trees and that we should spend what we haven't got.

I tell you what.

Never mind trying to remember 18-19 years ago when you were messing nappies up and playing in your high chair, think 4 or 5 ago when we over spent in the championship and are just recovering.

For gods sake. Thats not tripe it is in your face TRUTH


Where did I say we should spend money we havent got? INventing stuff to back yourself up? tut tut. Please dont call me a young lad andf patronise me, because I will run rings around you.

Explain the VSA for me please.


So you are a jumped up young lad, no shocks given the fact you are the one that posts a one line comment with regards to this issue.

Before you say anything about how the Club is run may i suggest you THINK about what you would do in JBs position and yes, that includes VSA as well.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:10 pm

Phil

Your posts don't even warrent a response anymore.

You are like the batty old man that stands in town shouting about god ranting to himself about the return of jesus christ.

Barmy, off the mark and same old rubbish.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:10 pm

philthesaddler wrote:What we havent done however is go forwards, to take the club forwards, to get our attendances up, to get a better infrastructure.


Apart from a new stadium, new stand, new training ground, new media room, new gym, our own surgeon, and more time in the higher levels than we have ever spent before.... what has Jeff Bonser ever done for us? :roll:


philthesaddler wrote:How many teams that are currently in Leagues 1 and 2 have spent the last 18 years bobbing up and down between those two divisions.

How does that relate to...

philthesaddler wrote:JB has kept us in this state of mediocraty because it suits the way he runs the club.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:15 pm

philthesaddler wrote:
Registered Saddler wrote:Four promotions and only our second piece of silverware ever is certainly not mediocre.


It most certainly is. How many teams that are currently in Leagues 1 and 2 have spent the last 18 years bobbing up and down between those two divisions. Many of them will have had short, successful periods in the championship [Swindon, Crewe, Huddersfield, Millwall, Port Vale etc] - we've done the same.

What we havent done however is go forwards, to take the club forwards, to get our attendances up, to get a better infrastructure. JB has kept us in this state of mediocraty because it suits the way he runs the club.


You could argue that there are other clubs of a similar stature to ourselves and Vale that we have overtaken in the meantime, too. I don't agree that we have not gone forwards. At the start of the 90s, we were leaking money all over the place and were midtable Div 4 fodder. Rubbish. Since then we built slowly and steadily, realising that was the only way to progress - along with producing young players of our own a la Crewe. That was happening and all going to plan until there was a big falling out with Colin Lee and a disastrous appointment of Merson. That set us back years. Now, we seem to be building again and, perhaps, given the strength of our young players, to be in an even stronger position than before. It's exactly the right principle for a club of our size.

Of course, if a John Madejski or Dave Whelan came in and bought the club, ground, everything, then that would be fantastic. But it's pie in the sky. Until such a day arrives, I strongly believe that JB's long-term plan is to get us to be a stable Championship club. It's where we were when things went belly-up, it's where we are headed again now.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:17 pm

stafflers wrote:
philthesaddler wrote:What we havent done however is go forwards, to take the club forwards, to get our attendances up, to get a better infrastructure.


Apart from a new stadium, new stand, new training ground, new media room, new gym, our own surgeon, and more time in the higher levels than we have ever spent before.... what has Jeff Bonser ever done for us? :roll:


philthesaddler wrote:How many teams that are currently in Leagues 1 and 2 have spent the last 18 years bobbing up and down between those two divisions.

How does that relate to...

philthesaddler wrote:JB has kept us in this state of mediocraty because it suits the way he runs the club.


It relates quite clearly, in that we stumbled accross a manager that got us promotion twice, but for various reasons, mainly financial, we were unable to sustain progress we made, which in turn left us with a financial hangover, and back to square 1. Just like Swindon did, just like Millwall did ...

And the advancements you mention - 17 years to get a training ground of our own, whoopy do. Going from owning our ground, to not owning our ground, thanks jeff. New Stand? forced upon us, so you can't really count that. New media room? Wow. Who hasn't bought a new TV in the last 20 years?

The stuff you mention is what you'd expect, not something which we should be celebrating.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:26 pm

The thing is...

Bonser undid all his 'good work' of 17 years with 2 years. That is some achievement.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:29 pm

Burnside wrote:Phil

Your posts don't even warrent a response anymore.

You are like the batty old man that stands in town shouting about god ranting to himself about the return of jesus christ.

Barmy, off the mark and same old rubbish.


:lol:

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:52 pm

Registered Saddler wrote:
tinned wrote:
King Crimson wrote:Interesting comment below by a Mr Phil Burton, too.


He's spot on as well.


Reading Phil's comment, it seems he wants a new owner that would only be interested in buying a football club that has a prime piece of real estate attached. Strangely enough, that's exactly the sort of person I want a million miles away from my football team.


Me also.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:54 pm

tinned wrote:It's more to with the fact that what kind of businessman is going to touch (let alone buy) a football club that barely breaks even and doesn't even own (what should be) it's main asset?


But don't you claim that JB has made a killing out of WFC? In which case there should be a queue of equally disreputable local businessmen queuing up for their chance at the trough - no?

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:54 pm

philthesaddler wrote:
Registered Saddler wrote:Four promotions and only our second piece of silverware ever is certainly not mediocre.


It most certainly is. How many teams that are currently in Leagues 1 and 2 have spent the last 18 years bobbing up and down between those two divisions. Many of them will have had short, successful periods in the championship [Swindon, Crewe, Huddersfield, Millwall, Port Vale etc] - we've done the same.

What we havent done however is go forwards, to take the club forwards, to get our attendances up, to get a better infrastructure. JB has kept us in this state of mediocraty because it suits the way he runs the club.



Southend -
Swindon -
Huddersfield -
Crewe -
Oldham -
Gillingham -
Millwall -
Luton -

MK Dons Rotherham -
Bury -
Stockport -
Bradford -

Oxford are now a non league club !

Look at the Championship today, Colcehester, Blackpool, Scunthorpe will all be back within the next couple of seasons - Cardiff might as well.

I think compared to most of these teams we are one of the most stable clubs. We have one of the most clued up boards from what i see from the outside. We are much better looked after. I wouldn't swap with to many of them other clubs. We aren't a volitile set up from one extreme to the other we build, have a go, shrink then have a go back.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:59 pm

Ego Sum Ego Existo wrote:The thing is...

Bonser undid all his 'good work' of 17 years with 2 years. That is some achievement.


Good things done by Jeff Bonser

Saving the club

Recognising that other things apart from football were the future (before most of the other 92)

Appointing Chris Nicholl, Ray Graydon, Dickie Dosh, Colin Lee. (1 bad appointment merse ?)

The development of Conferancing.

Making sure we made a profit year on year (i.e not struggling)



IF JB has been such a bad leader then tell me why you often see people using our club as an example of what there club should be doing to develop off field activities ? and move their club forward.

I think we are nearly in a position again to have a crack at the Championship. Wouldn't be the case without the stuff you hate so much.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:00 pm

philthesaddler wrote:
Registered Saddler wrote:Four promotions and only our second piece of silverware ever is certainly not mediocre.


It most certainly is. How many teams that are currently in Leagues 1 and 2 have spent the last 18 years bobbing up and down between those two divisions. Many of them will have had short, successful periods in the championship [Swindon, Crewe, Huddersfield, Millwall, Port Vale etc] - we've done the same.

What we havent done however is go forwards, to take the club forwards, to get our attendances up, to get a better infrastructure. JB has kept us in this state of mediocraty because it suits the way he runs the club.


Is that really true though? We've got Bescot instead of Fellows Park, all the extra infrastructure at the ground from the Lee era, we've got the new training ground coming in soon and we've got higher average attendances than we did in the same division 10 years ago (and probably than we did in the same division 20 years ago, although I'm not sure about that). In what sense is our infrastructure worse than 20 years ago? And in what sense are our attendances lower?

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:01 pm

Registered Saddler wrote:
tinned wrote:It's more to with the fact that what kind of businessman is going to touch (let alone buy) a football club that barely breaks even and doesn't even own (what should be) it's main asset?


A fan?

Seriously, if anyone buys a football club thinking it is a for-profit organisation is an idiot. In fact, they are so clueless about the football business that they shouldn't be anywhere near a football club either. What you need in an owner is two-fold:
1. Keeping the finances on an even keel, despite the unpredictability of on-field results and the pressure from fans+manager to spend, spend, spend ("speculate to accumulate" is what they will falsely label it).
2. Making wise decisions about the overall operation of the club, most importantly over the hire and fire of the manager.

Apart from one period (we all know when), JB has done both those things well. Much better than most other chairmen out there, in fact. I really hope that when he finally calls it a day, we get someone else like him.


I think you'll find that JB has done pretty well out of his investment. Fair play to him, but to suggest he hasn't made money out of the club is
quite frankly ridiculous. Football can be big business - look at the Glazers at Manchester United, do you think they're in it for the love of the club?

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:04 pm

Burnside wrote:
Saving the club


You make me laugh.

A club that owned land subsequently sold to the tune of £4.6m did not need 'saving'

Clubs that need 'saving' are clubs that don't have the assets to cover their debts, and have to be 'saved' by someone paying off the debts and buying the club, or by servicing the debts through administration.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:04 pm

Plastic Hawk wrote:
Registered Saddler wrote:Reading Phil's comment, it seems he wants a new owner that would only be interested in buying a football club that has a prime piece of real estate attached. Strangely enough, that's exactly the sort of person I want a million miles away from my football team.

Me also.

Walsall football club used to have a prime piece of real estate attached. Unfortunately it did not take very long, around the time of Mr Bonser's first involvement with the club, before the club and the real estate were separated.

I have no problem with Mr Bonser keeping his ownership of the Banks's stadium after selling WFC, as long as he sells it for £10 to someone who will invest a lot of money into the future of the club.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:10 pm

Bernie wrote:
Plastic Hawk wrote:
Registered Saddler wrote:Reading Phil's comment, it seems he wants a new owner that would only be interested in buying a football club that has a prime piece of real estate attached. Strangely enough, that's exactly the sort of person I want a million miles away from my football team.

Me also.

Walsall football club used to have a prime piece of real estate attached. Unfortunately it did not take very long, around the time of Mr Bonser's first involvement with the club, before the club and the real estate were separated.

I have no problem with Mr Bonser keeping his ownership of the Banks's stadium after selling WFC, as long as he sells it for £10 to someone who will invest a lot of money into the future of the club.


Hear, hear

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:10 pm

Bernie wrote:
Plastic Hawk wrote:
Registered Saddler wrote:Reading Phil's comment, it seems he wants a new owner that would only be interested in buying a football club that has a prime piece of real estate attached. Strangely enough, that's exactly the sort of person I want a million miles away from my football team.

Me also.

Walsall football club used to have a prime piece of real estate attached. Unfortunately it did not take very long, around the time of Mr Bonser's first involvement with the club, before the club and the real estate were separated.

I have no problem with Mr Bonser keeping his ownership of the Banks's stadium after selling WFC, as long as he sells it for £10 to someone who will invest a lot of money into the future of the club.


What an utterly brilliant idea.
















Over to you Phil.
Last edited by Geordiesaddler on Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:10 pm

Bernie wrote:
Plastic Hawk wrote:
Registered Saddler wrote:Reading Phil's comment, it seems he wants a new owner that would only be interested in buying a football club that has a prime piece of real estate attached. Strangely enough, that's exactly the sort of person I want a million miles away from my football team.

Me also.

Walsall football club used to have a prime piece of real estate attached. Unfortunately it did not take very long, around the time of Mr Bonser's first involvement with the club, before the club and the real estate were separated.

I have no problem with Mr Bonser keeping his ownership of the Banks's stadium after selling WFC, as long as he sells it for £10 to someone who will invest a lot of money into the future of the club.


My feeling is that the club and the land should remain separate. Ideally I'd like to see the land lodged in a not-for-profit organization such as the Trust (or whatever they call themselves now), with the stadium that stands on it continuing to be leased to the club. Again ideally that's be for a peppercorn rent, but assuming that there was no prospect of the land being sold from under the club I'm happy with a market rent.

To me, a football club that owns a piece of prime real estate is a property developer's wet dream - and it's best that the club remains a tenant rather than an owner. After all, it's not as if we could ever sell the land if we did own it - that'd be the end for the club - so we only really lose the rent payments, and surely any business can factor overheads of that kind into its business model.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:18 pm

philthesaddler wrote:
Burnside wrote:
Saving the club


You make me laugh.

A club that owned land subsequently sold to the tune of £4.6m did not need 'saving'

Clubs that need 'saving' are clubs that don't have the assets to cover their debts, and have to be 'saved' by someone paying off the debts and buying the club, or by servicing the debts through administration.


Phil.

I'm not wearing a red nose, pointy red shoes and a silly pair of trousers.

Do you not remember the days sat there wondering if anyone was going to come in and save us?

No internet back then Phil

It was teletext,

Express and Star

maybe Clubcall.

I remember flicking teletext on everyday wondering if we were going to have a team to support.

Don't tell me you are not grateful for us having a team to support.

You'd have nothing to moan about.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:29 pm

I do notice a trend.


What Jeff has done.
How he has done it.
What he hasn't done

What he has done - i think most fans who UNDERSTAND the situation do not knock what he has DONE for the club and can't argue that progress has been made.

How he has done it - I think most fans who UNDERSTAND will agree with those that don't that some of the things he has done could be done better but some of this has beend own to TOUGH LOVE while other things are just a matter of learning. Then again he has his neck ont he block he and the club survives by his calls and decisions.

What he hasn't done - Is chase what we can't have so we end up in a mess. I feel a few on here wish he would.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:33 pm

Plastic Hawk wrote:
tinned wrote:It's more to with the fact that what kind of businessman is going to touch (let alone buy) a football club that barely breaks even and doesn't even own (what should be) it's main asset?


But don't you claim that JB has made a killing out of WFC? In which case there should be a queue of equally disreputable local businessmen queuing up for their chance at the trough - no?


That doesn't quite follow. Jeff made a killing because he was in the right place at the right time to buy the freehold and multiply this initial investment many times by charging the club to rent it back every season thereafter. The freehold is the Golden Goose and he wouldn't sell it for a pittance to a local businessman disreputable or not! That's why nobody has made a serious offer for the club since JB took over.

Surely nobody disputes that Jeff has 'made a killing' out of Walsall over the past 17 years. What the pro-Bonser and anti-Bonser factions disagree over is whether he has been worth the £4-5 million he has trousered in that time. Owning Walsall has been JB's (almost) full time occupation for a while now and it has been very good to him. However, he has made very little attempt in that time to cultivate dialogue with the fans and has often come across as difficult and autocratic - PR is certainly not his strongpoint which is probably why a lot of fans are still suspicious of him even after the successes of the past decade. It would be lovely to think that if JB had the interests of the club totally at heart he would gift the freehold back to the club with a proviso that football had to be played at Bescot for the foreseeable future to prevent any future asset stripping. But can anyone realistically see him doing this?

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:39 pm

bangsection wrote:Jeff made a killing because he was in the right place at the right time to buy the freehold and multiply this initial investment many times by charging the club to rent it back every season thereafter. The freehold is the Golden Goose and he wouldn't sell it for a pittance to a local businessman disreputable or not! That's why nobody has made a serious offer for the club since JB took over.

Surely nobody disputes that Jeff has 'made a killing' out of Walsall over the past 17 years. What the pro-Bonser and anti-Bonser factions disagree over is whether he has been worth the £4-5 million he has trousered in that time. Owning Walsall has been JB's (almost) full time occupation for a while now and it has been very good to him. However, he has made very little attempt in that time to cultivate dialogue with the fans and has often come across as difficult and autocratic - PR is certainly not his strong point which is probably why a lot of fans are still suspicious of him even after the successes of the past decade. It would be lovely to think that if JB had the interests of the club totally at heart he would gift the freehold back to the club with a proviso that football had to be played at Bescot for the foreseeable future to prevent any future asset stripping. But can anyone realistically see him doing this?


An excellent summing-up of the situation, bangsection.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:43 pm

Leamore Saddler wrote:
bangsection wrote:Jeff made a killing because he was in the right place at the right time to buy the freehold and multiply this initial investment many times by charging the club to rent it back every season thereafter. The freehold is the Golden Goose and he wouldn't sell it for a pittance to a local businessman disreputable or not! That's why nobody has made a serious offer for the club since JB took over.

Surely nobody disputes that Jeff has 'made a killing' out of Walsall over the past 17 years. What the pro-Bonser and anti-Bonser factions disagree over is whether he has been worth the £4-5 million he has trousered in that time. Owning Walsall has been JB's (almost) full time occupation for a while now and it has been very good to him. However, he has made very little attempt in that time to cultivate dialogue with the fans and has often come across as difficult and autocratic - PR is certainly not his strong point which is probably why a lot of fans are still suspicious of him even after the successes of the past decade. It would be lovely to think that if JB had the interests of the club totally at heart he would gift the freehold back to the club with a proviso that football had to be played at Bescot for the foreseeable future to prevent any future asset stripping. But can anyone realistically see him doing this?


An excellent summing-up of the situation, bangsection.


Ditto. JB is free and single, we should pop him like a pringle :lol:

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:45 pm

bangsection wrote:
Plastic Hawk wrote:
tinned wrote:It's more to with the fact that what kind of businessman is going to touch (let alone buy) a football club that barely breaks even and doesn't even own (what should be) it's main asset?


But don't you claim that JB has made a killing out of WFC? In which case there should be a queue of equally disreputable local businessmen queuing up for their chance at the trough - no?


That doesn't quite follow. Jeff made a killing because he was in the right place at the right time to buy the freehold and multiply this initial investment many times by charging the club to rent it back every season thereafter. The freehold is the Golden Goose and he wouldn't sell it for a pittance to a local businessman disreputable or not! That's why nobody has made a serious offer for the club since JB took over.

Surely nobody disputes that Jeff has 'made a killing' out of Walsall over the past 17 years. What the pro-Bonser and anti-Bonser factions disagree over is whether he has been worth the £4-5 million he has trousered in that time. Owning Walsall has been JB's (almost) full time occupation for a while now and it has been very good to him. However, he has made very little attempt in that time to cultivate dialogue with the fans and has often come across as difficult and autocratic - PR is certainly not his strongpoint which is probably why a lot of fans are still suspicious of him even after the successes of the past decade. It would be lovely to think that if JB had the interests of the club totally at heart he would gift the freehold back to the club with a proviso that football had to be played at Bescot for the foreseeable future to prevent any future asset stripping. But can anyone realistically see him doing this?


It doesn't follow if you assume JB is the disreputable businessman that he's painted as and that he'd be selling the freehold for a pittance. If you take him at his word and assume that he's got the best interests of the club at heart then he will sell the freehold (for a fair price, not a pittance) to someone he thinks has the best interests of the club at heart. Even if you don't assume that, then (as he won't live forever) at some point the market value of the land will become more valuable to him than the accumulated rents for the rest of his life. At that point it'll be in his interest to sell the land at a fair price.

The comment about disreputable businessmen lining up to get their snouts in the trough was slightly flippant, but it is undeniable that JB makes money out of the club year-on-year. Personally I do think that he's worth it, but that's not really relevant to the argument. If he makes £350k a year then a new investor could make back his money on the club and the ground in, say, 20 years and then sell the club (and ground) on for a clear profit. Is that any different from any other landlord?

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:49 pm

It definately seems as if JB is trying to stir up some interest in the club once again, there's another piece on the E&S site now, saying how he wont do what Doug Ellis did and go on till he's decrepid.

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:50 pm

philthesaddler wrote:It definately seems as if JB is trying to stir up some interest in the club once again, there's another piece on the E&S site now, saying how he wont do what Doug Ellis did and go on till he's decrepid.


Presumably then, that means that Ellis is out of the running to be the new owner!! :wink: :lol: :lol:

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Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:53 pm

We don't get a free ground. Why should JB have to prove he is "worth" the rent? The ground is worth the rent that he charges - unless anyone can prove otherwise. Even if he sold the club + ground then we'd still need to pay rent to someone, I don't really care who it is, so long as the person isn't going to stop us playing football there.

Or we could own the ground. JB stepped up to the plate when we needed to sell the ground and no one else was going to buy (I think...). If someone wants to put their money where their mouth is and buy the ground and club NOW, then they'll need to meet his asking price. Which will be a lot more than JB paid for it, obviously, and you'd be pretty stupid to think otherwise.

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