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Wolves (h) - League - 11th January 2003

Reports and reaction from the 2002-03 season as Walsall finished 17th in Division 1
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Wolves (h) - League - 11th January 2003

Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:52 am

By Paul G ( on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 07:54 pm: Edit

Today CL can defiantly blame the pitch for the defeat. It looked like a definite bobble on a divot to me despite some people seeming to blame Jimmy. Really harsh. If it happened last Saturday then fair enough we deserved to lose but today we were much better.

It had to happen in the derby game. Pissed off but its over now. What pisses me off more is what happens next. I don’t subscribe to Geoff’s relegation doomsday scenarios and still believe our remaining fixtures work in our favour. On paper I can’t see a reason why we should go down. Unfortunately football is not played on paper it’s played on grass or mud and sand in our case.

No one can play on our pitch. Yes it’s the same for both sides but ourselves, Reading, Sheff Utd and Wolves have found it more or less impossible to create chances on the surface. The only way to score goals is a fluke (today) or an outstanding moment out of the blue (sheff utd). Once a goal has gone in its easy to kill the game because the game was never flowing in the first place. The result is we lose our home advantage and we get served up a •••• poor excuse for a football match every week. The pitch could well relegate us this year.

This concept of letting Villa use our pitch has spectacularly backfired. CL has admitted on WM today that Corica has been dropped as it is useless to try and play him on that surface. We still have to pay his wages of course and we will still have to pay for the loss of income if we get relegated through being forced to drop our most effective creative player. What next? Jorge to snap his cruciate whilst stretching after a ball that bobbles away? I don’t know how much money we have received but it is clearly a false economy. What is unforgivable is the fact that we knew this from 2 seasons ago when we did exactly the same thing and ended up playing on a mudheap until the end of March.

It does not end there. The two biggest attendances of the season which have attracted the armchair fans have watched two awful games on a pudding of a pitch. If you had not come to bescot for a few seasons but then turned up today and boxing day what would your impression of the club be? Would you go again? And for us season ticket holders we can look forward to not seeing any football from either side at Bescot until April at the earliest. I can’t wait to get to Reading this week.

The best thing to happen today was the fantastic sunset over Wednesbury. Oh and Ricketts being left out by bolton. They are expecting a cash bid from Spurs this week. It costs £200 000 to relay a pitch. That might be our best investment right now.

By Dave Mickle ( on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 08:11 pm: Edit

We did not deserve to lose today. Ok we created little but neither did the Wolves. Playing 5 at the back restricted our attacking options and Dzillic looked as though he needs a few more matches to get fit.

Poor Jim, I think he knows how much the match meant to the fans. He is still one of the best keepers in the division and lets hope he gets the mistake out of his mind quickly.

Not meaning to be a cheat but our ground-staff could have concentrated on our defensive area at half time and left the opposition half in a bad way. If so would the ball have bobbled infront of him

By SheffieldSaddler ( on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 08:46 pm: Edit

Excellent posting, and in full agreement with PaulG. The game today, no-one looked like scoring. The ball DEFINATELY bobbled when Jim went to kick it, I was right behind the goal, and had a clear view of the incident.
It just makes me so sick that true, both teams have to play on this pitch BUT it doesnt suit our game. Our best creative player on the bench because the manager doesnt think it is worth playing him because of the pitch. SHOCKING.
I am so sad and fed up because the players we have dont deserve to play on such a surface, their confidence must be so so low when they play at home knowing what they have to play on.
We will fight another day no doubt for sure. We WILL STAY UP, believe me.

By Surrey Saddler ( on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 10:37 pm: Edit

I wasn't at the match today but all this talk of the pitch really brasses me off. What can be done?? It seems we are destined to get sucked into the relegation battle because of the PITCH. Unbelievable!!How about a ground share with one of our neighbours and that's a serious suggestion.

By Shifnalsaddler ( on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 11:04 pm: Edit

Moronically unprofessional play by Hay (I think, hope I'm not blaming the wrong one) in putting a back pass on target on such a pitch. Basic schoolboy stuff, backpasses should be hit wide, then if the goalie misses the worst that happens is a corner.

No shot on target today, or have I forgotten one? That makes three home games, a grand total of zero shots on target, unless you count Wrack hitting the bar against Reading as being on target, which I don't. The pitch might be bad, but surely it can't be completely to blame.

Far too lightweight up front, Jorge plus A.N.Other needed. As for free kicks and corners, why don't we just save ourselves the bother and ask the referee to award them to the opposition. Do we do any work at all on the training ground?

So Corica can't play because of the pitch? Aaaah, diddums, so what was his excuse for his pathetic performance at Ipswich then? And Norwich?

There are too many excuses being made, players should either face up to it or they can feck off. A few more with the attitude of MOC and Bazeley would be good. It was a crap pitch for them too, and they had good players up against them, but they were excellent at times and worked hard. They, and others such as Wrack, Sonner and Ropes are being let down by too many of their team mates.

Anybody else around in the mid seventies? The pitch was worse then wasn't it, at times, but we played great football, some of the most entertaining in any division. Let's stop making excuses for what have been a succession of totally unacceptable performances.

By Geoff Whiting ( on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 11:07 pm: Edit

I don't really get it Paul G, on the one hand you don't subscribe to my so-called "relegation doomsday scenarios" (a rather OTT description Paul, LoL), yet you say "the pitch could well relegate us this year".

Also I can't see on what basis you can say you "still believe our remaining fixtures work in our favour". Which ones ?

The only ones that I think look in our favour are Brighton(H) 1st Feb, Watford(H) 22nd Feb, Millwall(H) 8th March, Burnley(H) 15th March, Derby(H) 26th April and even amongst these I see one or two we may struggle to win. There's 15 points here if we win them all giving us 44, OK we're bound to pick up the odd point or two here and there just on the law of averages, but looking at the fixtures I wouldn't like to predict where or when we'll get them.

As I've said before, I'm not a prophet of doom, that's not really my style, I'm just trying to be realistic given what I see ahead of us, and there's no point in pretending all is going to be fine and rosy if deep down I don't believe it.

Please just convince me where the results are going to come from, 'cos I still can't see 'em, and I'm getting more worried week by week; even when we deserve something, as we did today, we rarely get anything, call it bad luck or whatever, but we remain on 29 points on 11th January and I still say we needed 31 or more by 1st January. Apart from an unlikely/unexpected point at Forest, every game I forecast several weeks ago has gone exactly as I predicted. OK I'll be wrong with some, it's inevitable, but even I am getting worried about how consistently my predicted results are turning out to be right.

Apart from the different views we have on the outcome of future fixtures, I absolutely agree with most of your other excellent comments Paul, just one exception, Reading made several good chances last week and we'd definitely have gone out of the FA Cup but for Wakker's amazing saves and that goal-line clearance by Zigor from Cureton's follow-up volley after Butler poked his shot onto the post.

Apart from the spectre of relegation, what really worries me is we have not made a single clear-cut chance in the last three home games; if you're making 'em, well there's got to come the time when one will go in, but if you're not even making 'em ...... ???? !!!!

Just my opinions, as I keep saying, I hope I'm wrong.

Finally, Sheffield, I trust it's agreed that the bet we had is confined to league games, i.e. Reading Tuesday night is not in the frame, not that I expect us to win there either mate.

By SheffieldSaddler ( on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 11:19 pm: Edit

When will people realise that THE PITCH as a lot to do with our current problems? Christ we try to play football, we cannot on this pitch, so what do people expect? The pitch is a DISGRACE, i have played on better pitches on a Sunday morning. When you play at home, you expect to have an advantage, at the moment we dont because of THE PITCH.
Corica is our best creative midfield player, for every match Shifnalsaddler mentions he didnt play well I can mention two he has. Not only did his goals and creative play keep us in this division last season but has helped contribute to the astonishing fact that we have had the most shots on target than any other first division club according to someone on a previous thread.
And why the hell does Junior take corners? What a bloody waste of a decent striker!!!!

By Geoff Whiting ( on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 11:26 pm: Edit

Shifnal, just watched the goal on Sky, the back-pass was from Carbon, and the ball took a really high bounce over Wakker's right boot. It was always bobbling, but how it flicked up that high at such a low speed is hard to believe.

The principle of not passing-back towards the goal in such conditions is dead right, and Carbon had the chance to clear it away to our left before turning it back towards Wakker. However, that's all history now, another point chucked down the drain, even if bad-luck played it's part.

Your comments about our shots are spot-on, basically in line with my comments about the lack of chances in my previous post (which was done before yours had come up on my screen).

By SheffieldSaddler ( on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Geoff - The game on Tuesday doesnt count- correct. But we will still win on Tuesday and face the Dons in the next round.
We will also receive a massive cash windfall when Ricketts is sold to either Spurs or Boro in next few weeks.
We will also be in division one next season.
We will also win an away match before the end of the season.
Oh and I am sober..... I think.....

By Salop Saddler ( on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 11:54 pm: Edit

Totally agree Sheff. I wont be losing too much sleep tonight. The pitch is a effing mess though and speedy remedial work does need to be carried out even if it means shelving a signing.

By RushallSaddler ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 12:29 am: Edit

0-0 would have been a very fair result today as it was a shite game neither goalkeeper had a shot to save in the whole game - agree with Paul G about the attendances the last three games will put the casual supporters off from coming back again while the pitch stays like that.
Saw the goal again on Sky tonite it really was a nasty bobble, can't really blame jimmy for that but why o why did he not just grab the ball rather than just leave it on the line for a tap in, I know it was a back pass but surely a free kick inside the penalty area would have been a better option than the one he chose, for that I do blame him.
Like I have said on previous threads I still think we will get more points away from home than at home because up until the end of march I can't seen there being anything more than 0-0 or 1-0 scorlines at the bescot, the next home game is absolutely massive against Brighton - if we manage to lose that one the alarm bells will really begin to ring and after reading Gary Mcallisters comments after todays Cov v Brighton match I dont think it will be easy it sounded like Brighton played coventry off the park and were very unlucky not to win, teams will come to Bescot like wolves today and just play for a 0-0 draw and hope for a lucky break like today, Warnock, Pardew and Jones have all said in their post match comments that they are mighty glad they only have to play at Bescot once.
We still need 21 points and only 18 games to get them in 9 home 9 away I think we'll get 9 at home and the other 12 away.

By Paul G ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 01:19 am: Edit

I am confident we can win 3-4 away games. Our performances against the better sides have been good in the first half of the season but the odd lapse in concentration has been punished. The likes of Bradford, Stoke and Grimsby will not be so ruthless and we will take points from them.

On paper we should win 3-4 home games also which is why Geoff I feel we should stay up. We no longer have any home advantage however as the pitch makes every game a lottery. Corica indeed may not play well for some games but if we can not play him because we are scared the pitch will affect his game we will never know.

Quite honestly it just pisses me off to even be talking about relegation because we should be half way up the league.

By cannock ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 02:24 am: Edit

You are correct in everything you say Shifnal. Given that it transpires according to some, that we can only play our football on good football pitches then i have to ask the question why our away form is pants.

At the end of the day a football pitch is a football pitch, full stop. It could be a nice green one, a small sandy one or a deep muddy one, but at the end of the day it is a pitch. We have had enough experience at Bescot in Winter months to know how to play on it. OK we lost today due to the pitch, but the surface cannot be blamed for all of the other defeats we have suffered this season. Wake up. Stop looking for excuses. Maybe we were unfortunate today, but other defeats were deserved.

By Geoff Whiting ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 03:17 am: Edit

Sheff, I hope that Ricketts transfer money comes through quickly and is spent wisely, with a significant amount spent on the bloody pitch.

Having said that, I have to say I continue to be amazed at the number of people who are just blaming the pitch for our failures, saying it doesn't suit our style of play.

So do we seriously think it suits the other teams' style of play ?

No way, yet a lot of other teams look as though they adapt to it better than us, but why should that be, they only get to play on it once a season, we play on it every bloody home game ! Shouldn't we be adapting better than others ? Maybe there's another issue here, like a difference in quality and/or ability.

I very much agree with Cannock here, we've played away on good pitches and still failed to get anywhere near enough points, in fact the away points total is not bad, it's bloody abysmal. Would anyone be able to argue that ?

And when we're at Bescot, there are two teams playing out there and after nearly every game we hear comments like "we can't play our football on that pitch". Well why do other teams manage to overcome it then ?

OK so today was a freak, but that kind of freak goal doesn't explain all the other stupid home defeats we've suffered, nor the away defeats when we've been the better side, been ahead etc..

Having witnessed all that's gone on this season, I can only say I am amazed at the number of people who are still looking through rose-coloured spectacles and saying "we'll get the points we need here" or "we'll get the points we need there".

Can someone please show us some evidence of the improvement that's going to produce those points, because for sure I haven't seen it yet ! We should have far more points, we all know that, but the table says we've got 29 and that doesn't lie. Where is there one scrap of evidence to point to us getting enough home and away wins to get us into a safe position - evidence please - not just hopeful views through rose-coloured specs !

By ShropshireSaddler ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 10:54 am: Edit

I cannot believe that anyone can blame Jimmy Walker for yesterday. Sitting in the Banks's, it was obvious that the ball took a massive bobble.There's not a goalie in the world who could have done anything about it. As for the comment that he should have stopped the ball on the line, he was travelling at ful speed towards the goal and there's no way he would have stopped. Pure bad luck for Jimmy. We MUST get the pitch sorted or we're down!Fully agree with everything Shifnal said (we're an intelligent bunch of saddlers out in shropshire!) - the blame, if any, lies in playing a back pass in those conditions.

By Wednesbury QH ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 11:28 am: Edit

In agreement with most posts on here RE:The Pitch!!,I was at todays game and cannot blame Jimmy at all,the ball definately bobbled. The manner of the defeat does worry me though, for well over a month now we have struggled to come to terms with the condition of the pitch and if not addressed immediately - this single factor will cost us dearly. We are a decent footballing side now with good players who when allowed can knock the ball about slickly. I think Dave Jones (Radio WM Interview post match) was spot on where by he said that he was glad to get that game out of the way as he is glad that his side will not have to play on such a surface again.

Colin Lee as assembled for us probably one of the greatest sides that Walsall has known, please, please give him the tools to work with - never mind offering cash for Ainsworth I think the most soundest of investments would be to relay the pitch immediately, we have a window now where our next game is in three weeks on the 1st Feb. If not then I hate to think what could happen?

By Geordiesaddler ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 12:25 pm: Edit

For some reason I've got a relly positive feeling about both away games at Reading. I think the manner of yesterday's defeat will get a reaction out of the players, and they must surely be looking forward to getting away from that pitch for a couple of weeks. One sad thing to report yesterday, yet another riot on the rail network. Cardiff's Soul Crew took a day trip to Brum after their game's postponement, the result near carnage at New Street when Man Utd fans arrived. Fortunately the police for once seemed to have got wind of what was obviously a pre-arranged event, and 100 or so riot police managed to just about deal with it. As I've said before on here I can't belive the scale that hooliganism has returned this season. For the ten years I've been a long distance fan I've always enjoyed the banter on trains and in pubs but not any more. Its back to the days where you watch your back, sit on your own and keep your gob shut. Getting to be almost every bloody week - and really p!ssing me off. It's bad enough watching your team lose without having to fear getting your head kicked in on the way home.

By Shifnalsaddler ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 12:40 pm: Edit

We did NOT lose because of the pitch, we lost because a player hit a back pass on target. As I said, moronically unprofessional, sunday morning stuff etc. Interesting to read in paper today that Jones had told his players to eschew back passes whenever possible. It's a shame that players on thousands a week need telling something so obvious, but I wonder if Lee gave the same instuctions to our players. The upshot is that Jimmy ended up looking a fool for something that wasn't his fault, and also we lost, again.

Sheff, on the Corica thing, two games where he has played well for every one he has played badly. In, say, the last two months? No chance mate, but feel free to try.

Cannock is right, if we lose at home because of the pitch, we lose away because of, erm, er........?

Bazeley and MOC looked good players yesterday, despite the pitch, because they ARE good players. If others struggle, I wonder why that is.

And why is it that Wrack won far more of the ball in the air than either of our so called centre forwards?

I've said all season that we are under performing, that this squad should be doing far better than it is, and I'm afraid the chickens are coming home to roost.

Big problems, but maybe the cup will give us a lift, and kick start things again. Here's hoping.

By PJD ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 01:01 pm: Edit

The backpass should never have been made....what was he thinking?!!

O'Connor should not have been booked for a hard but fair tackle.

Bazeley had Kennedy in his pocket all game.

Zdrillic doesn't look good enough. Hope he proves me wrong.

Zigor was much better than last week, but I suppose that's not saying much is it?

The real problem is not the pitch, it is the fact that we have not scored a goal at Bescot since 14th December. I think that Colin Lee has to take a degree of responsibility here, for his tactics. We are looking to play everything through the middle up front. Against Sheff Utd to Junior in the air (what a farce!) and against Reading and Wolves to his feet. To counter the pitch we should be getting the ball out wide. Let me ask this question. What happened when we did this second half against Forest?

By Geordiesaddler ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Agree entirely with Shifnal about our set plays they are abysmal, and you can't blame the pitch for that. Like it or lump it we're stuck with the pitch in its condition for the time being at least, and as such desperately need a forward with some aerial prowess and the ability to hold the ball, Cannock mentioned Andy Rammell, well need someone of his type because at the moment the opposition are finding it very easy to play against us.

By DF ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 02:32 pm: Edit

Didn't we go unbeaten until about February/March on a pitch just as bad 2 years back?
Time to cut the excuses and face the fact that Clueless Colin doesn't know what to do. He has players at his disposal that just about any other Saddlers manager would have killed for and to blame the pitch just doesn't wash. (it's always someone else's fault if you notice) His injury time substitutions summed everything up to me.

By cannock ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 02:50 pm: Edit

As much as i love Andy Rammell Geordie, it wasn't me who mentioned him. It was someone called Cannock Saddler.

By dave sims ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 03:47 pm: Edit

There are two certs in life ones a nurse the other the Dingles will be played next season!.Yesterday hurt and will do for some time,still paying the price for corners cut hence the state of the pitch. I back LEE and his judjment on players,and on generally dragging our club into a 1st division outfit all round.We will not go down,a new forward would help, as well as a dose of good luck. Take a deep breath, look at the bigger picture, it does not involve trips to Colchester and 3rd rate Albanian footballers.Keep the faith.

By Mark W ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 03:54 pm: Edit

I agree with you DF.What were those injury time substitutions about.As I said on another thread the simularities with this time just 12 months ago are alarming.

By scotty ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 04:50 pm: Edit

I maybe totaly wrong here but.... Should the ref not have blown for a freekick once Jimmy had handled the ball as it was directly from a pass back??? I know we would not have been happy if it'd been the other way round but is that not the correct rule or are you allowed to play the 'advantage' in situations like that?

By I LOVE GRASS ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 05:25 pm: Edit

According to Sky sports news today (sunday), the contractors have gone into Stamford Bridge and started digging up their terrible pitch. (even worse than ours). They are having brand new turf delivered from somewhere in Lincoln and it's gonna cost 100 grand! Surely that's something our board need to consider. A new pitch could be installed in a week. 100 grand is •••• all to keep us in this division. I fear that the current pitch will send us down!

By PJD ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 05:28 pm: Edit

The ref can play advantage. Wouldn't it have been great if he'd blown for a free kick as Ndah put the ball in the net though? Paul Danson would probably have done this to us, if it had happened on Boxing Day.

By popperpancake ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 08:52 pm: Edit

I think it was just one of those things that happened yesterday. Definitely not walker's fault and although i can see the arguement behind saying the ball should never have been passed back in the first place it was just a freak thing. The performance wasn't great but neither was wolves (or sheff utd or reading for that matter). Reading perhaps deserved the win but wolves and sheff utd games were settled by a great goal and a freak goal. Zdrilic has a lot to do to convince me. Couldn't understand why he played where he did. I would have thought he (and then emblen when he came on) should have played as the central of the strikers to at least try and win some headers. Junior is never gonna win headers....i don't really blame junior for this like some seem to...it's just not his game so why ask him to do it? I was happy with jorge and junior prior to the pitch developing the way it has but i agree with all the people who say we could do with a target man. Slightly worrying the way we have been getting dragged down towards the relegation zone. But altho brighton and stoke have picked up of late and wednesday managed a win too i still believe that we will finish above all 3 of those sides. Hope im not f**king wrong.

By Ted ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 09:16 pm: Edit

Didnt we have the worst home record in the league BEFORE the pitch carved up? Reading, Ipswich, Bradford and Rotherham turned us over with relative ease on carpet of a pitch.

By PJD ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 10:38 pm: Edit

Quite agree Ted. There's more to this than the pitch. Our away form is, as has already been said, p**s poor.

By Fish ( on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 11:50 pm: Edit

Geoff, just for the sake of clarity, the backpass was definitely from Hay.

By 4two ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 01:02 am: Edit

Just thought id make people aware of a man of the match poll taking place at this adress
We got bored with the papers/sponsors/opposition etc coming to the games and not having a clue about our players and picking the man of the match so you can choose your own till monday evening.

By Geoff Whiting ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 02:26 am: Edit

Fish, yes I know.

Strange thing is I watched it on TV last night, taped it and watched it again, and was convinced it looked like Carbon, couldn't make out the number but it looked like his style, definitely Carbon.

Then this morning I saw it again, and it was Hay definitely, without a doubt.

I can only conclude that the clever b******s at Sky with their computers have messed about with the video ! LoL

Sorry, hands up, my mistake I think !! Well it won't be the first time I've got it totally wrong.

By JPD ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 03:58 am: Edit

Excellent points again.
Just a few things to add.
Identity crisis Cannock - what about me and PJD?
Fortunately he sounds like an intelligent chap so I don't mind being mistaken for him. Hopefully he feels the same.
What about the goalie coach - there must be a foolproof way to handle backpasses on wet grounds that is in the coaching manual?
With Ricketts - what happens if its a Ricketts for another player swop? Do we still get cash?

By Trevor Sinclair ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 09:00 am: Edit


By Richard Hall ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 09:54 am: Edit

DF - spot on. But we don't want RG back, do we?!

Blame the pitch for the goal but not the performance - we've been awful in a poor division for too long. The formation sucked, forced us into long-ball and gave us no width. If we have that defensive a mind-set against rubbish like the Dingles then we are in trouble.

Junior is looking more-and-more like a 1-trick pony (c.f. Boli), Zdrillic is not good enough at this level, and son-of-Lee is too lightweight. I don't buy the argument that he is our most creative player.

1. we need some attacking intent through the centre of the park, our central 2/3 are too similar (play Emblen?);
2. we need a new striker (but that's a given I guess);
3. why don't any of the central 3 (well, Hay or Carbon) feel able to step-up into midfield?
4. more width please;
5. Pedro rather than Corica.

Paul G, I wish I felt confident about our home games, but I don't see from where our next goal is coming.

By Eric Hall ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 10:26 am: Edit

Alrite geezers,

ere's ow it is, i take a big back hander from big sam, and i get sum me boyz to go up play for the trotters while miky ricketts gaaaaaaaaaaas daaawn to London Town to play for Spurz

By Geordiesaddler ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 10:46 am: Edit

DF the reason CL has players other Walsall managers would have died for is because he's gone out and signed them.

By PJD ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 10:51 am: Edit

JPD the feelings mutual, but why are you posting at 2.58am?
To save confusion I think I will become the OxfordSaddler.

By Dav Ford ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 10:57 am: Edit

Geordie that option was not open to any manager since Coakley. Mind you when the last player Coakley signed was Dale Banton you can see the pros in the argument.

By Geordiesaddler ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 11:24 am: Edit

Presumabley you mean it was not an option because of the role of Paul Taylor. So in other words CL is doing two jobs. I think which ever way you look at it Lee deserves support, and I hope if a couple more bad results go against us the fans stick with him. Lee has had circumstances to cope with this season, the loss of Dave Merrington (and the timing of that loss), the complete failure of Stuart Houston, the three sided ground, and now the pitch. You can see that as excuses or reasons depending on your perspective, fact is we're five games without a win - hardly the end of the world. My gut feeling with Lee is that he has the ability to turn situations like this around, and he's done nothing in the last 12 months to suggest otherwise.

By Phil_G ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 11:27 am: Edit

Apparently, ManUre are re-laying their pitch as Sir Alex is unhappy with it.
54 days and 10 games since it was last relaid.
Perhaps we could put a bid in for the old one.....

By SheffieldSaddler ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 11:34 am: Edit

Some very interesting posts in the above I must admit. DF says Lee has players at his disposal that just about any other Saddlers manager would have killed for, the reason for this DF is that a vast majority of these players would not have signed for any other Walsall manager. Lee has the contacts and reputation to bring these players on board, not like the Walsall managers we have had in the past.
Richard Hall - Name me a more creative Walsall midfield player than Steve Corica please? I look forward to your repsonse.
And the suggestion that we play Matias instead of Corica really does make me worry about your sanity. Christ Pedro has never been division one class and never will be. Corica murders Pedro firstly in goals scored and secondly in assists. Pedro will play well 1 in 10 in this division. He is useless at this level as proven when he has played at this level.

By Neil Ravenscroft ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 11:50 am: Edit

Colin Lee needs to change things now. Despite the state of the pitch, I can't see the club getting it relaid at this time of year, so we need to change the style completely, something he recognises himself.

Looking at the positives (to quote Sir Ray), Bazeley, Hay, Roper, Carbon, Aranalde (Yes. Aranalde), O'Connor and Sonner were superb on Saturday, so the spine of the side is looking good.

(Sonner would have been my choice for MoM, just ahead of Mart, as I thought they were far superior to Ince and Cameron, with Bazeley just behind, as he gave Kennedy nothing).

We missed Jorge terribly.

By popperpancake ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 11:53 am: Edit

I can't believe i agree with both geordie and sheff. Worrying. Very worrying.

By Stu ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 12:07 pm: Edit

Mountain of a mole hill anyone? There seems to be panic setting in and I can't quite work out why.

As I've said elsewhere, our run of games has seen us play 3 Top 6 teams (Norwich, Sheff Utd, Ipswich), 2 Play off contenders (Reading, Inbreds) and 1 rejuvenated Ipswich side. Honestly, before that run I thought we'd get 3 league points and an FA Cup 4th Round place at most. So, 1 point and a replay isn't too bad.

Is anyone saying Grimsby, Wendy, Stoke, Brighton would have got many more points from that run of fixtures? I don't think so. •••• pitch or no •••• pitch.

I am worried that we've looked blunt going forward in the last 3 games, but we've havent in the away games, so our play hasn't gone downhill drastically. So if we change our style of play at home, I'm sure we'll see that change. That could be done this week if CL can bring in the appropriate players. But then again, neither Wolves or Sheff Utd created any real chances either (apart from a freak goal and wonderstriker by Brown).

As for Saturday. Neither team deserved a win, Wolves didn't create any chances. The goal was a freak, you can't point any blame at Hay (thats ridiculous) and you can't blame the pitch. It was just a simple error where he took his eye off the ball, freak goal, simple as that. That will have hurt Walker as much as it did us fans so there isn't any point dwelling on it.

We've now got two tough games on a good pitch at Reading, again, I don't expect us to get anything at all as they're a very good team in my opinion. But it isn't any reason for widespread panic. Our away form is poor, but we've had some bloody tough away matches (Wendy, Bradford, Sjoke, Grimsby all to come plus some mid table games).

Lets just relax and stop worrying.

By 4two_TSFC ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 12:37 pm: Edit

Cant disagree with Stu at all.

The bluntness up front is not to my liking either. To be honest...i cant remember us being so boring under Lee. What has changed? Why has the team who were involved in 6 or 7 goal thrillers managed something like 6 goals in its last 7 games (cant remember exact figures). When was the last time we scored 2 or more at home...Grumsby? While we did manage 2 at Ipswich over Xmas. I dont think the way we play at the moment Corica and Wrack give us enough width.

By Paul G ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 03:34 pm: Edit

We played well at Norwich also at Ipswich and Forest (albeit after going behind). We can play good football on a good surface. Sheff Utd, Reading and Wolves are strong teams who we may not have beaten even on a good home surface. Things will look different when we get a run of games against poorer opposition on a good surface. Unfortunatly this may mean the last few games of the season by which time we will really be in the thick of it.

Yes we did play poorly in the last three home games and did not create many chances. Tactics and player form no doubt has some role but I do think the pitch should take a lot of the blame. Everyone is talking about it. Every manager is highlighting it. The media do not stop talking about it. I think it plays on the teams mind. If you tell someone they can not play well on a surface like that often enough they will start to believe it. They are going onto the pitch at a mental disadvantage. The opposition know its only one away game they have to suffer. Our guys know its every home fixture.

Wether you think he is good, bad or indifferent it is absurd to have to drop Corica because the surface does not suit his game. Groundsmen adjust pitches to suit their best players in cricket and in football (e.g. widening/shortening piches to accomodate wingers). We ruin our pitch to the extent where we can not play our managers first choice player.

By hullsaddler ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Didn't the groundsman use to win awards for the pitch at some point in the not too far distant past? Perhaps we have been concentrating on winning awards for Balti Pies in more recent times.

By Stu ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 05:32 pm: Edit

That groundsman, Roger Johnson, left at the end of last season. The bloke who helped him has taken over the reigns. But, its not as if this is a one off season. Its been poor for the last 2/3 seasons on the bounce.
In a way, we've been unlucky with the weather as this must have been one of the wettest winter's in ages.

By Chris Owen ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 05:55 pm: Edit

I know, and I'm in East Anglia. My shed's rotten, my garage is leaking and the rivers are all flooded. Mind, we live on an enormous drained bog, so we shouldn't be surprised. Oh to be back in the Midlands, where rain runs away.


By Shifnalsaddler ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 07:30 pm: Edit

Stu, why can't Hay be blamed for the goal? He played a stupid back pass. If he had no choice but to play it back, if clearing it wasn't an option, then he should have had the common sense to hit it wide of the goal. It was a basic error, similar to the dozens of others we make all over the pitch, and which CL seems unable to cut out.

We play far too many backpasses and put too much pressure on the goalie, we concede possession from throws in more often than not, we are poor at defending corners, we are worse at attacking them, free kicks are a waste of time, certain players do not seem to understand the basic rules of how to clear a ball (high, wide, and long), we concede lots of stupid free kicks for girlie type pushes or blatant trips, we get booked for silly displays of dissent, our crossing is poor, we consistently seem to have two players attacking the same ball, we have players who look knackered well before the end of 90 minutes.

Is that enough?

Lee is not getting the best out of the resources at his disposal. DF, above, is quite right, no other manager has had so many players of this quality available to him, he needs to sort it out and very quickly.

And Sheff, why ask us to believe that many of these players would not have signed for any other WFC manager? Didn't Carbon and Byfield both state that they signed BECAUSE of Ray Graydon.

Dave Merringtons reputation grows in his absence, I think.

By cannock ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 08:14 pm: Edit

I hate to do this Shifnal but once again i am agreeing with you. I suggest Colin Lee is booted out with immediate effect and Shifnal takes over. You know what is wrong mate, how about cheering me up with your corrective actions and timing plans.

By Keith Jones ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 08:40 pm: Edit

If Ricketts went to somebody in a player exchange deal, logic says that our cut will go to a tribunal to work out the value of the players exchanged.

PS - Sky Sports News is one to avoid today, they keep showing the goal and then the presenter says "I could watch that all day"!

Central News milked it as well.

By hay not to blame! ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 08:47 pm: Edit

if hay had tried to get ride of the ball like some are saying then the player coming in on the blind side would of got it and it would of been a goal and they would all of been saying y didnt he pass the ball back to jimmy! he carnt win only waker to blame as he took his eye off the ball and u can not do that at any level of football!

By OxfordSaddler ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 10:12 pm: Edit

Oh come on. Walker didn't take his eye off the ball it took a huge bobble. I learnt at the age of about 12 to play the ball outside the post on a back pass on a pitch like that, and that was when the keeper could pick up the ball.

Dave Jones told his players not to play the ball back to the keeper, if only CL had done the same.

By PJD ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 10:44 pm: Edit

Oh, and did anyone else see this from Dave Jones?

"Denis Irwin said to me it was the least amount of running he'd done in his career"

If I was Colin Lee, I would be hugely embarrassed by this quote.

By Pelsall Saddler ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 10:47 pm: Edit

Excellent post, Shifnal. in my opinion, we have far too many players simply not performing well enough, and the way we are going, we'll all soon be consulting Grimsby's Electronic Fishcake again for the end-of-season predictions.
We are unable to keep posession, we waste set-pieces, we rely on counter-attacks, and the pace and strength of Jorge (who we missed badly on Saturday), and yet people are blaming the pitch!
I believe that Lee is more astute and experienced than Graydon. He can see as easily as we can what is wrong. The question is wether he can bring in the right players to get us those 21 points that we still require to ensure survival.
Geoff Whiting has been portrayed as a prophet of doom, but I have the same fears as he does, I cannot see at the moment where we will pick up the points we need.
Hopefully I am wrong.

By Stu ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 11:45 pm: Edit

Shifnal, you can't blame him in a month of Sundays.

Do you think he stands there thinking "If I play it back, will Walker miss the ball or not?" No, course he doesnt. As Lee said, you cannot legislate for that.

Whether you play football or not, I do not know. But, if you do, you probably play on far worse pitches than that every week. Myself, I'm a keeper, but I still call for the ball to be laid back to me to slow the game down. I don't say "pass it back to me out of the way of the goal incase I miss the ball when I go to kick it!", come off it.

It was a simple error by one player. Nothing to do with Hay. Maybe he didn't get a call to tell him about his options? Maybe Walker called for the ball? Whatever, it had nothing to do with him and to attribute any blame whatsoever is ridiculous.

I agree with your post, as I often do when I read what you've to say, several players are under-performing for whatever reason. But, to lay even the smallest bit of blame at Hay is stupendous.

Unfortunately, only one player can have any blame laid at his feet and that happens to be our best player. But, he made a mistake and I'm sure he won't again. To go off saying that Hay should have done this or kicked it there is just a stupid thing to say. As said, it cannot be legislated for. It just happens. Do you think the Villa have stopped throwing the ball back to Enckleman?

Thats one point I can't even come close to agreeing on.

By Stu ( on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 11:54 pm: Edit

Otherwise, I agree completely. We've all been saying it for weeks though. We've been saying it since last season. I've lost count of the times I've ranted about letting players run at us and cut inside, giving shooting chances (and how many goals we've conceded. I can't ever see us scoring off a set piece (Junior excepted) and I could pull my hair out when we try and play pretty football from the back when we should just go 'hoof'. But, to imply a passback to the keeper that happens to be 'on target' is a mistake is ridiculous, on any surface. We're talking about professional footballers here, not 8 year olds on King George V on a Sunday morning, that backpass was perfectly safe (speaking as a keeper, on any surface), walker happened to lose concentration for a split second, thats all. Do you expect defenders to legislate for that everytime we make a backpass, come off it. Otherwise, agree entirely, , but what can be done?!?

By Dave Roe ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 01:16 am: Edit

Walker lost concentration ????? Did you see the goal on TV ? It jumped two foot in the air. How the hell was he supposed to control that (at the speed it was going) ?

A decent defender would take the playing surface into account before passing it back. Any dunse could see there were divots left, right and centre and the ball was likely to go anywhere. He should either of played it wide of the goal or put it into orbit. Occasionally Hay looks a class player. Unfortunately sometimes he looks nothing more than a 3rd division clogger.

The real culprit is the prat who signed the contract with Villa to let their reserves play on the pitch. Yet again they take the easy money and care not what kind of surface our lads will have to battle through (let alone the poor standard of football us paying punters have to suffer).

By SheffieldSaddler ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 09:45 am: Edit

In regards players we have signed because of the contacts and reputation of CL then I dont think I really need to say a lot. Perhaps we can look at the difference a year can make. You remember the rubbish that was signed by PT and RG and now look at what we sign under CL. Can I remind people last year of the absolute rubbish we signed on loan under PT and RG, now we sign first division class players on loan in the form of Ainsworth and Emblen. Can I remind the rubbish we signed under PT and RG on a full time basis compared to what we sign now. Hay, ex premiership. O'Connor, Bazeley, Sonner etc all ex-first division. he facts are there in black and white. Walsall FC under the management of CL sign better class players. True, we are going through a bad patch at the minute, but the home form I put down to the pitch and the away form I puit down to playing the better teams in the division.
We havent suddenly turned into a bad team. We are just having a bad time at the moment. I am sure these problems will be sorted out and CL knows what problems we have and will take the necessary action in order to correct them.
We need to sit back and look at the more open picture. In February we play Brighton, Leicester and Watford at home and Bradford away. If we dont get at least 6 points from these matches, I would start to worry yes.
In the meantime I will continue to have faith in CL.

By Deidre Titchmarsh ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 09:46 am: Edit

People talk about getting the pitch relaid. Can I just point out here the problems that occured when the pitch was laid to start with. It all took place after a rather boozy night out of which the pitch has now got no recollection.

A couple fo moths later the pitch realised it was pregnant. The club hushed the whole thing up and insisted that the embryonic pitch was aborted. The pitch was and still is cut up over this decision.

I know that some on this board say that the pitch shouldn't have let people walk all over it but where was the pastoral support. That little pitch would now be lush and mature. Ready to take over from its mother when the need arose.

This short sightedness and cold heartedness from the club was/is terrible.

By Stu ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 10:44 am: Edit

With regards to Villa reserves playing at Bescot. How many games have they actually played at Bescot, I'd like to know. We're all blaming them, but if its only 2 or 3 games then we can't really lay the blame at the feet of that.

As for the goal, I've seen it, the bobble wasn't that bad. As I say, we all play on pitches far worse than that on a Sunday morning, its a matter of concentration and keeping the eye on the ball.

By popperpancake ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 10:54 am: Edit

Someone was chatting to me the other day re our pitch and mentioned how he'd heard villa reserves being blamed for it. But he asked the question why can loftus road support QPR, Fulham and the rugby team, plus reading has a rugby team at the mad stadium too. Also heard people asking how many times villa reserves have actually played on the pitch....heard suggestions it was only once (i'm not saying that's true, just overheard someone say it). But the loftus road pitch is a good point i think...surely our pitch doesn't get more use than that one. Sack the groundsman.

By RushallSaddler ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 11:19 am: Edit

I think its twice that Villa reserves have played at bescot, against middlesborough and Everton the other two scheduled games were Bolton (postponed) and the baggies moved back to Villa Park.

By Phil_G ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 11:23 am: Edit

The thing we've got to bear in mind is that if the Villa reserves hadn't played on it, our reserves would have.
As popper says, other pitches support many more games than ours.

By PJD ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 12:03 pm: Edit

"the bobble wasn't that bad" - Come on Stu, the ball was played back to Walker along the ground and jumped above knee high as he went to kick it.

By Stu ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Cheers Rushall. So here we are, people having a go at Bonser and saying we're doing it for the cash. And Villa reserves have only played two matches on it anyway! What a difference those two matches must have made.

By popperpancake ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 12:52 pm: Edit

So whose fault is it? If it is just two matches villa have played i think it's ridiculous to blame that for the state of the pitch.

By Stu ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 01:41 pm: Edit

Maybe there isn't anyone to blame. With the original long standing drainage problems that the pitch has had, combined with the constant ran we seem to have had over winter, maybe it was just too much.
In hindsight, maybe we should have looked at the drainage earlier. Then again, maybe they did and thought it would be alright.
Its time to learn from these mistakes and make sure the same doesn't happen this time next season.

By jimmy ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Bobbel was horrible. Walker could have done nowt! Hay cant even start to be blamed, accidents happen. What enkelman did against blues was a lack of concentration (under his foot) what happened to walker was a nasty fluke!

By Chris Owen ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 02:11 pm: Edit

I remember a match against Chesterfield the season RG got us promoted first time round, which we lost 3-1. The pitch was a bog then too, and it really hurt us. Chesterfield in comparison were direct and hard, and won out. The pitch has been prone to turning to a mudbath in winter for seasons now, and its never suited us. Can't say we didn't know - so chickens are now home to roost.


By TwoearsTwoeyesonemouth ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 02:12 pm: Edit

Look to when the games were played together with our reserves. I'm sure it was once played on three times in 5 days and it rained each time. It was cutting up terribly.

The drainage was meant to be superb after the treatment done on it a few years ago (the Cardiff season when it was full of sand)

By Chris Owen ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 02:14 pm: Edit

Correction to previous message - just done the maths - must have been the season we came up from the third, so not RG. I'm getting old... But the point is even more clear - our pitch has been a bog for years!!


By carl chinn ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 02:36 pm: Edit

The situation with the pitch is not new,it could and should have been avoided.If Colin has anything to do with it,you bet it will be sorted out in the close season.So D F you reckon Lee is clueless,you obviously were not at Gillingham,Man City Barnsley away (i could go on)last season.Im sure you would not be happy unless Graydon was in charge,and we were playing 2nd division footy.Saturday hurt and will do for some time,but i tell you something the feeling was no where near as bad as loosing 4-0 at Gillingham years ago,when there looked like no future at all.Its time to wake up and smell reality.Sure some players are`nt performing,but we will stay up.I trust Lee to bring in what we need,not another 3rd rate foreigner.It is time to stop been negative, remember were we have come from,and back the man who stopped us going back there!.

By Dave Roe ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 02:46 pm: Edit

Spot on Carl. Although I thought you were a Vile fan ?

By Geordiesaddler ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 06:29 pm: Edit

Saturday was the 12th anniversary of the Gillingham McKightmare match, maybe that's what did Whacka.

By Shifnalsaddler ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Chris Owen, the game you are thinking of was, as you later surmised, under Nicholl, in March of '95.
The pitch was indeed boggy, but there had been hours of slashing rain before the game, and it continued throughout the match. It was so wet I spent money in the club shop ( a rare event) on a cap. Some of the noisiest away fans I can remember at Bescot as well that day.

Stu, we'll agree to disagree on who is to blame then. I wish there was some way I could blame Mark Robins for it, but even I can't figure out a way to do it.

On the pitch subject, non league teams often have several games a week played on theirs, plus training, and yet some of the surfaces are excellent, or at least quite good, certainly better than ours. What have they done right that we haven't, or is it just luck?

By cannock ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 07:51 pm: Edit

If anyone bothered to buy the matchday programme they would be able to read a full feature on why the pitch is so bad rather than spouting rubbish about it being due to Villa reserves..

By gullible ( on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 11:30 pm: Edit

hook line and sinker

By JPD ( on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 03:38 am: Edit

Couple of points - I understand we hired a pitch cover a while ago - is there any way it can be used to cover the pitch when rain is forecast?
Cricket fans please advise on how cricket pitches are protected from the elements in Test matches.
Another thing - quality players are probably keen to sign with WFC for another reason - we are solvent and will pay what we promise.
I couldn't understand Uhlenbeek signing for Bradford and not us.
But not all players act rationally.

By Grass Grower. ( on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 09:10 am: Edit

i reckon there is a lot of problem because the sun doesn't get very high in the sky...just ask those on the Alsop...and the temperature is low meaning that grass growth is minimal at this time of year.

Therefore there are no roots binding the topsoil together and everything is effectively sliding about or freezing into crests.

Solution....Yake the normal bulbs out of the floodlights and replace with UV lamps that you have on 24 hours a day. Heat and artificial sunlight.

By SheffieldSaddler ( on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 10:28 am: Edit

Cannock - Sorry but i cannot be bothered to buy a matchday programme. So perhaps you could analysis the feature and give us the real reason. It would be so helpful.

By cannock ( on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 06:33 pm: Edit

Very briefly.

The contractors ballsed up the initial pitch installation. As opposed to 70% sand and 30% soil the mixture was the other way round. Sand is good for drainage apparantly. To make matters worse the contractors also used the wrong type of soil which when rolled forms a non permeable layer thus preventing drainage. Also various attempts at corrective action are just increasing the drainage problem.

Thats the way i read it anyway.

By Tim Wilkes ( on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 06:56 pm: Edit

The wrong type of turf...that's Sod's law!

By JPD ( on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 04:31 am: Edit

The contractors should be hung from the rafters until they cheer up!!!!

By SheffieldSaddler ( on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 09:50 am: Edit

So if the contractors made such a balls up wont they be replacing it free of charge?

By Neil Ravenscroft ( on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 09:53 am: Edit

Depends on the contract terms. After all, it was over 10 years ago, they might not even be in business any more!

By PJD ( on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 11:55 am: Edit

Could we borrow the Brumbrella from Edgbaston? And roll it out when it rains. It depends if it was specifically made for their pitch or whether it is prefabricated and can be broken down and put back together in different lengths.

They won't be using it this time of year.

By david fletcher ( on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 04:02 pm: Edit



By flownswift ( on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 05:21 pm: Edit

and so say all of us!

By The Enigma machine ( on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 05:50 pm: Edit

Sorry, i haven't got a clue.

By Dick leksik ( on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 06:48 pm: Edit

I could not have put that better myself

By Exile ( on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 08:32 pm: Edit

David Fletcher's parents must despair.

By DAVID FLETCHERS MOM ADN DAD ( on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 09:51 pm: Edit


By Joe90 ( on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:06 am: Edit

Good to see you back Doffer!

By Joe90 ( on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 01:01 pm: Edit

Sorry, the capitals confused me.

By Tim Wilkes ( on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Joe- what's the House of Commons C.C. fixture list looking like? Any gaps for a poor but bar-friendly team?

By JPD ( on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 03:58 am: Edit

They're touring Australia at the moment.

By Joe90 ( on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 12:31 pm: Edit


Our fixture secretary is always on the lookout for games.
I haven't seen this years fixtures yet, but I should get a copy in the next few weeks.
What area of London are you based in? I'll find out the MP, try and get his/her support, and we can take it from there.

By Tim Wilkes ( on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 01:14 pm: Edit

I'll mail you Joe, to avoid incuring the wrath of the rest of the board.

By Ian Gittins ( on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 03:18 pm: Edit

Didn't Jeffrey Archer and Jonathan Aitken play for the Parliament team? They know a bit about bail(s).

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