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Watford (a) - League - 7th September 2002

Reports and reaction from the 2002-03 season as Walsall finished 17th in Division 1
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Watford (a) - League - 7th September 2002

Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:07 pm

Watford 2 Walsall 0
Sonner sent off (86)

Walker , Roper , Hay , Carbon , Bazeley , Wrack (Zdrilic 80) , O'Connor , Sonner , Aranalde , Leitao (Junior 72), Corica (Matias 72)
Subs not used: Barras , Ward
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By 1933 on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 03:26 pm: Edit

Oh well, sounded like a replica of last weeks match. Played well in the first half should have scored. They get a goal, player gets sent off, they get another.

Good though to to O'Connor back and Carbon and hopefully we get back on track by giving the Shrews from Meadow a lesson on Tuesday.

Will wait for opinions of people who have been to cast further opinion.

By Stu on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 04:54 pm: Edit

I hope the players read this, if so, Danny Sonner - Your a fudge walking prick and thats me being nice.

An absolute shower. Thank god I only live 40 mins away. Today was my closest match of the season, I did a 70 mile round journey to watch us fail to put a real shot on target. I even rung WM to moan, apparently we were good for the first 10 mins (unfortunately I was 5 mins late in). But if that first 5 mins I saw was the best we offered, then we were poor.

Once again, we did not have a "hand on heart, my god we should have scored that" chance. A lot of •••• final balls and a half chance or two, but nothing that should have given a goal.

Formation 3-5-2, very promising at times. But Corica IS NOT a striker, can we re-iterate that point please. Sean Dyche found it easy to manhandle him.

Also, why the fudge did we put Darren Wrack up front with Junior when Zdrillic was stuck on the bench? If we're not going to use, why the fudge are we paying him?

Performance deefensively wasn't too bad, apart from falling to sleep on their first goal. Offensively we were very poor, no final ball, no killer instinct.

Oh, and Danny Sonner. Your a fudge prick.

For those who dont know what happened. A Watford player had the audacity to back in to him and shield the ball. Sonner's response was to throw him to the floor by his neck and swing an arm in the players direction. fudge prick.

I really cant stress my anger towards Sonner, totally unprofessional.

I wouldnt have minded if they were any good, but they werent that hot, they were mediocre. Just a shame that we're so predictable, "lets kick it to the right", "lets it hoof to our 5ft 8 striker (Corica)".

Thank god our next two games are Bradford & Rotherham at home. If that isn't 6 points I don't know what is.

Oh, and Sonner, your a fudge prick.

Sorry, my anger isn't meant to be directed towards the team, just that prick that was sent off.

By Angi Oplasty on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 05:32 pm: Edit

Appalling show. Do the players take Colin Lee seriously??? Do the players think they can go easy now the transfer deadline has passed? Will we have to wait until the end of January before we see another show? Forget mid-table for the time being, we r gonna struggle (until the TD is lifted anyway).

By Anon on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 06:00 pm: Edit

Another disciplinary disgrace.

By Geoff Whiting on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 06:00 pm: Edit

Haven't been to the match, but listened to the commentaries on Extra-AM and WM alternately - both stations saw this game as a real wasted opportunity, seems down to the fact that we can outplay sides but can't conjure up the telling final ball or, if we do, we can't finish. More or less the same as last week, in that we gave away goals in the last 15-20 mins, the second after having a man sent off and chasing the game to salvage a point when the three should already have been in the bag. Rather than pass any more comment on the match itself, I'll wait to hear from you who've been to the match - I'm so p****d off, so you poor lot who've made the journey must be unbelievably p****d off at being let down like this AGAIN !

Like Stu I'm really raging about Sonner - what the hell is wrong with these ex-Blues b*****ds - do B'ham City have them in and get their brains removed or what ? Just like David Holdsworth last season, comes in from Blues - gets himself sent off for doing something stupid, on this occasion pulling a guy down by the neck under the ref's nose. Memories of Holdsworth at least twice last season, against Wolves and, I forget, was it Preston ? - no that was Biancalani I think. Wasn't it David Johnson that he chopped down, and was he playing for Sheffield Wednesday ? Help me, somebody.

Anyway, for years Blues have always seemed to me to be an-over physical side, regardless of changes in management and players, and it seems they bring it with them when they come to us. I'm even getting worried about Martin now !

I've said this before on this board, and it's no secret to any of us, we've a small squad and losing players through stupid yellow and red cards is something we just can't afford. We're bound to lose players to injury, and if we're gonna play a committed game we're bound to have suspensions from totting-up bookings for the odd mis-timed tackle here and there. But these kind of stupid things for dissent, chucking opponents around when there's no threat, etc. - just plain stupid and Colin Lee's got to come down hard over this and eradicate it ! If not, there's only one place we'll be going this season, and that's back to Div. 2.

I'm so mad with Sonner that I can't describe it, but Stu has already said it for me ! Although he's been one of our better players so far, I think we might as well p*ss him off now before he becomes a total bl**dy liability !

I'm now taking some deep breaths and doing my best to calm down. I bl**ding-well hate having my weekends ruined like this - got a party to go to 2nite and now I don't feel at all like going.

And Stu, as for any certainty of 6 points against Bradford & Rotherham at home, I hope to God you're right, but there's no way I'm counting any chickens, my confidence is rock bottom, and on current form I doubt if most of our lot could score in a brothel !

By Stu on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 06:46 pm: Edit

Geoff, you should be glad you didn't go. Even worse is that I play with football with a couple of Watford fans and they'll give me some stick tomorrow morning.

But, if we cant take 6 points from Bradford and Rotherham at home, then we seriously need to worry. 4 points is a bare minimum and that would be disappointing.

Sonner is still a twerp though.

By Geoff Whiting on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 07:13 pm: Edit

Stu, sorry to hear about the stick you're gonna get in the morning, but perhaps it would be nice if you could take this stick and stick it up Sonner's a*se ! He sure deserves it !

I agree we've got to get those points in the next two home games, all I'm saying is I'm rock bottom on confidence, fed up, pi**ed off, and I don't see where the goals are coming from with our forwards at the moment.

Right I'm off now to this bl**dy party, feeling well wracked off, no way I'm gonna' enjoy it now !

G'nite, hope you have a good Saturday evening, trying to avoid the p*ss-taking from our multitude of neighbouring fans !

By Shifnalsaddler on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 07:24 pm: Edit

Played loads better than we did against Brighton, shows the difference in the respective opposition I suppose.
Played well first half, one great chance for Jorge, a few half chances, lots of pressure, very pretty but not much of a cutting edge. Lots of tempting crosses, oh for a Rambo or a George Andrews who would get to the ball come what may.
First ten/fifteen minutes second half well on top, Bazeley running riot, but we didn't score, powder puffs in the box again, then the game was changed by a Watford sub, Anthony MacNamee, MOTM, who came on, forced Bazeley back much deeper and we had no response to it. Good management by whoever is running Watford.

Sonner is a half wit, but no one is surprised surely, his reputation is well known. I predicted he would serve his first suspension in September, but at this rate his second could be in October.

The centre defence looked very solid, but one mistake let Watford in. Lots of pressure on a defence if the attack can't score. Second goal was fair enough, we'd sent everyone forward to get an equaliser, got caught out, but I wonder how many WFC players could have finished as clinically as Foley?

The main problems as I see them are:-
1) squad way too thin
2) where do we play Corica to get the best out of his talents
3) how do we get Jorge to play to the level we know he is capable of
4) how can we bury Aranaldes body and rest safe in the knowledge that it will never be found and we will never be implicated in his disappearance

Let's hope Zdrillic and/or Junior prove good signings.

Incidentally, why no Gary Birch today, even on the bench? Injured?

I still think we will be OK though.

By Codsall Saddler on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 07:58 pm: Edit

Drove down in the hope of at least a point and we should have had at least that given the quality of the first half performance.

Interesting formation which saw us look reasonably solid but still not give Jorge much support - Corica on his own not enough. With 5 in midfield we need to get more forward quicker or start with Junior, Driller or Birch up front with Jorge. We could do this in this formation by dropping Wrack and bringing Corica back

Sonner played well in the first half and was looking to get forward before his rush of blood. This was inexcusable and possibly cost us a point. To follow it up with a Keane-like rant at the fallen victim was pretty pathetic.

Positives? Hay, Carbon and Roper. Thought Jorge battled well. Good to see Mart back but thought he was a bit rusty. Sonner played well at times - but is clearly brainless.

Main negative? Failure to score when we were on top - we need more up front. Plus Bazeley's total disintegration when their sub left winger came on.

More beer please........

By Stu on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 08:38 pm: Edit

Q. How to get the best out of Jorge?

A. Play him with a striker as a strike partner, not an invisible man as we normally do or a floating player as we did today.

Why did CL ask Jorge pre season what sort of played he wanted to play with, if we're not going to play that player. Instead, we tell Jorge to do it all on his own. I don't blame him at all.

Its like playing 1 central midfielder and asking why he cant get a grip on the midfield.

I wondered who their sub was, he was superb and swung the game in their favour.

I worry about our cutting edge. At least in a 4-3-1-2 or even 3-4-1-2 then at least Corica is creating chances for two strikers and himself, where as now he is creating for himself and Jorge.

By Cannock on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 09:07 pm: Edit

The match today was a match that we should and could have won quite easily. The fact that we didnt is basically down to Colin Lee. The formation we are playing with Corica behind Jorge simply is not working. During the first 10 mins we should have been 3 goals up as we simply took Watford apart. Three times we raided down the right flank, pulled the ball back which was begging to be smacked into the net BUT THERE WAS NO ONE THERE. The reason for this is that it was Jorge making the raids down the right flank rather than being the one ready to put it away. Time and time again we put the ball into the box and no-one was there to finish. When Junior came on ( too late in my opinion ) he terrified watford to death as he received the ball, turned and ran at them.

My next statement will seem a little alien so please bear with me.

Steve Corica is one of the finest talents ( along with Peron ) to have pulled on a red shirt. But i am beginning to think that he is the cause of our problems. He is not a centre forward and not a solid midfield player so we are trying to accommodate his talents behind a striker. The result being that we either lack firepower or creativity from the flanks. In my opinion we need to play a little more direct with two big forwards who will put the opposition defence under pressure. Unfortunately this then leaves Corica out of the side as we would need two wingers to supply the ammunition.

During the first 10 mins of the second half we again dominated with Bazeley and Zigor playing as out and out wingers. Two great chances created and again no finish. We could have been 5-0 up at this point

It is worth noting that we had lots of chances but had no-one to put them away whilst Watford had 3 chances and scored 2

Colin Lee needs to sort himself out and do what is best for the team rather than Steve Corica.

Overall defence looked pretty solid with Danny Hay putting in his best performance to date

O'Connor for all his talking looked well off the pace for obvious reasons

In my opinion Bazeley had a poor game as he had the first touch of a rapist

Sonner is a bloody prick

Sorry to babble but need to get it out of my system. Whenever Watford had a throw in they had 4 or 5 players waiting to receive the ball. Whenever we had one no-one was available and we just hurled the damn thing into a cluster of opposition players.It has been like this all season. Really there is no point in us having throw ins.

The way forward?

Employ a 442 system with 2 forwards. We may not get promoted !! but we wouldnt go down either.

Colin Lee GET IT SORTED BEFORE ITS TOO LATE

By Cannock on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Codsall, Jorge may have battled well, in fact i could have battled well but it doesnt make me an effective centre forward

By Brisbane Saddler on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 09:44 pm: Edit

So we can't take a trick against Lee's old clubs.
Has Houston anything to say as we don't seem to be doing very well so far under his training. I would have expected a real immediate improvement - similar to when a new manager comes in.
Very disappointing. Sonner seems to be a sandwich short of a picnic. He has a kangaroo loose in his top paddock. He's not the full quid. He's a tinny short of a six pack.
Get it sorted Colin, the honeymoon looks like its getting close to being over.

By Stu on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 10:13 pm: Edit

Brisbane, in all fairness we won the first two games as soon as Houston came in! Forest and Brighton!

And defensively, we've looked not too bad in the 4 matches he has been here. Apart from when we go searching for a goal and leave ourselves exposed.

Cannock - spot on really. Corica is a great player, but his "role" is so difficult to accomodate. Thus, why dont we go back to 4-3-1-2 that worked so well at first!!!

By Cannock on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 10:16 pm: Edit

Stop making me laugh Brisbane, this is getting serious. CLs honeymoon is definately over. Remember the excuse that we havent been able to field our strongest squad? Well we did today and in all honesty wouldnt have scored if we played until Monday due to the lack of ambition going forwards. This is down to the way the gaffer is setting up the team

By Cannock on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 10:19 pm: Edit

Agreed Stu, though i am worried by the lack of width with 4312 and we can get overrun in the middle at times

By SheffieldSaddler on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 10:19 pm: Edit

Having not been able to make the last 2 matches I cant really say a lot except I expected at least 3 points from them.
Sonner - Very disappointed to hear what has happened today as I thought he has been playing very well since joined us. I am afraid I expect a lot more of players than silly sending offs like this.
I cannot understand the fact that Corica is played up front and we try the long ball, surely this needs to be sorted CL!
Its typical Walsall really though isnt it? Build you up with a draw and 2 wins and then bring you back down to earth with a massive bang!

By Moaning Saddler on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 12:46 am: Edit

Horror Show At Vicarage Road....

http://www.geocities.com/pinsticker1/fo ... dlers.html

By spinner on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 01:32 am: Edit

Corica has scored 12 goals in his entire career. That is an average of less than two per season.

Brilliant idea to play him instead of a striker.

Reports say that despite having most of the possession today we did not put one shot on target. Does it take a genius to see that something is wrong with our tactics?

By spinner on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 01:36 am: Edit

Corica has scored 12 goals in his entire career. That is an average of less than two per season.

Brilliant idea to play him instead of a striker.

Reports say that despite having most of the possession today we did not put one shot on target. Does it take a genius to see that something is wrong with our tactics?

By addo on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 09:07 am: Edit

Am I dreaming, or is this deja-vous all over again!
When we didn't start so well last season didn't RG(maybe through panic)go through a spell of:-

1- Changing from his preferred 4-4-2 to a "more solid" 3-5-2 formation
2- Playing Wrack "in the hole" behind a lone striker

and didn't this result in

1- Us creating very few chances
2- RG losing his job.

Admittedly, we did look a decent side for the 1st hour yesterday and passed the ball around quite well but only created half chances.
I still dont know how we lost it though.

I agree with Codsall and Stu.
Play 2 up front with Corica in the midfield.
MOC and Sonner are decent holding players, so that should allow Corica to support the front men.

By Surrey Saddler on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 09:59 am: Edit

Excellent reports by Shifnel and Cannock. I totally agree. We should have won this game, but points were thrown away.
As for discipline we must stop getting red and yellow cards, particularly for dissent. Dissent is pointless. Referees never change their minds. All that happens is that the players shoot themselves in the foot.This happened yesterday, against Reading and at Brighton. Sort it out CL before you get a yellow card yourself.

By MarkW on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 10:23 am: Edit

Can anybody explain exactly what Wrack contributes to the team.Forget Sonners idiotic behaviour after 86mins --we were playing with 10 men long before that.

By Dave Hawkes on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 10:46 am: Edit

The sending off of Sonner may not be such a bad thing. Some one will have to partner O'Connor, so lets revert back to the 4-4-2 which has worked for the last 4 or 5 seasons, play with a couple of wide men (Harry or Roddy must surely get a game soon and Lee was chuffed with Pedro mid-week) and shove the big man Zdrilic up front with Jorge, with Corica alongside Mart. Jorge wants a proper striker up front with him, so why not give the guy a full 90. The worst he can do is scare a few defenders, stick the boot in, and possibly get on the end of all our wasted crosses and free kicks. At least untill we start finding out feet again, a bit of continuity should sort things out and maybe we will start taking chances.

By Geordiesaddler on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 12:56 pm: Edit

Against garbage
Toothless Saddlers lost
Spookily Graydonesque.

By Brisbane Saddler on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Suprisingly upbeat report emailed from my brother....
It was a decent game for Walsall and the scoreline flatters Watford as they had only 1 shot in the first half where as Walsall had plenty, only the lack of confidence in front of goal is stopping them scoring. The second half was pretty well the same until a substitution by Watford saw a nippy winger come on and cause all sorts of problems. Walsall wilted and Watford scored, then a bizarre sending off, a tussle in the corner between two players saw the Walsall player throw the Watford player to the ground in a fit of temper, he had to go. Walsall pressed forward for the equaliser one volley clearing the bar, then Watford broke and made it 2-0, sad as they deserve something.

By Marko on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 02:03 pm: Edit

Why don't we try 3 centre backs, two wing backs of Zigor and Bazely, with O' Connor, Simpson (if fit) and Corica in the middle with two out and out strikers therefore allowing Corica to get forward when needed but drop back when we haven't got the ball. This seems a sensible way of accomodating Corica aswell as 2 strikers whilst giving a good defensive formation aswell.

By hullsaddler on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 02:13 pm: Edit

According to The Observer we have the highest percentage for accurate shots on target for the whole of the first division (58%).So if we have an average of 2 shots a game then chances are that at least one of them will be on target!

By Geoff Whiting on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 02:49 pm: Edit

Looks like Fitzroy has a good chance of heading off for Saudi to make his living (source today's Sunday Mercury). I think he'll be a sad loss, we're going to need some midfield cover with Martinez and Sonner both up for suspension, the latter probably for three games after he threw the dummy out yesterday. Martinez looked ordinary anyway (I'm being kind) - Sonner has looked good but we don't need this brainless Birmigham City influence - if he's gonna pick up red cards in this fashion he'll not be available to play anyway. Fitzroy says he hopes for a contract with us if the Saudi offer doesn't come through - I'd say p**s Sonner off same as CL did with David Holdsworth, and make Fitzroy an offer to keep him here.

By ANother Saddler on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 02:50 pm: Edit

Trouble is, we get the ball on the edge of their penalty area, but we have no movement or no one to supply that telling cross, or little through ball.

In our last three matches we have dominated the first 30 minutes of the match. If we scored a goal early on, we could take charge of the match and build on the confidence of it.

I like the idea of switching to 3-5-2 or 4-4-2, much simpler that all this one man behind the strikers, right sided players on the left wing and strikers on the right wing.

It was a little Graydon-esque, but as you said in the summer Geordie, it's a shame that every bad game is remembered as a throw back to Graydon! Although I understand what you mean, Lee seems to be going down the Graydon route, and no flashy gyms or ex-Arsenal assistants are going to disguise the fact that we have won just twice in 7 matches, and fallen apart in at least 4 of the 7 so far.

By Bart on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 04:10 pm: Edit

Can everyone take a chill pill

By Geoff Whiting on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 05:18 pm: Edit

No ! Drugs don't work.

By Busker saddler on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 05:44 pm: Edit

After a short little ride on the metropoliton (or howeva u spell it) the ride back to vauxhall( sowwwwwwf landan) took a lot longer, my feeling is that leatao didnt wanna score, it said in the match programme that colin lee told jorge to have more belief in his abilitys, and i totally agree, there were a lot of times in the game where we clearly should have took shots, instead the players became nervous and too patient, anyway, seens as i am a poor young lad, and i cant get up to walsall much now, and seens as i aint been to many away matches either, will millwall (away) be pay-at-the gate?????

By Neil Ravenscroft on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Marko, I think, is spot on. I've thought from before the season started that, with everyone fit, our best formation was 3 5 2, or, more accurately 3 4 1 2. It seems to be the only way to accommodate Corica. So
Walker
Roper, Hay, Carbon
Baseley, O'Connor, Sonner, Aranalde
Corica
Leitao, Dzrilic or Junior

I still think it's what Lee has in mind, in the end, with everyone match fit.

By Geordiesaddler on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 11:38 pm: Edit

3 problems not solved since day 1 this season,
1) we won't score enough goals with this forward formation.

2) We routinely give opposition teams a chance defensively, yesterday's opening goal was just a hopeful diagonal punt across our box by a sh!t team who hadn't got a clue how to break us down. THEY WERE SH!T, the worst team I've seen since we played Sheff Wed away last season.

3) Discipline - a big problem.

Bazeley destroyed them down the flanks yesterday, the game was cryiing out for width, so they brought their sub on - where was Harry, Imagine what he could have done yesterday. What ever he's done to be out of favour must be pretty bad.

By Mal on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 09:09 am: Edit

Most depressing having listened to teh 1st half and the bginning of the second. I then had that horrible Saddlers teletext moment, unbelievable. Anyhow to get into context I was saying earlier about Corica and Jorge's roles. For me JL confidence is rock bottom and needs dropping to the reserves. We have Zdrillic, Junior & Birch so after seven games time to tinker with players not the whole team.

We are pretty much where I expected to be after seven games but again the 'What might have beens' are the bummer.

Tuesdays game pre Bradford and Rotherham is for me now a massive one. Get the players in who have been scoring in the reserves and lest build of what should be a good win.

Team for me would be ;

Walker
Hay, Roper, Carbon
Bazeley, O'Connor, Corica, Sonner, Aranalde
Junior, Zdrillic

Subs: Birch, Wright, Leitao, Herivelto, Ward

By SheffieldSaddler on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 09:31 am: Edit

I think CL is facing his first real problems. After the draw at Sheffield United(a game we should have won), the wins against Forest (down to 10 men) and Brighton (totally sh*t team by all accounts). We then lose to teams like Reading and Watford who I have to say, are not going to do anything in this division this season.
We need to get a formation sorted and stick to it with perhaps the odd change depending on team we are playing.
We need to play 2 strikers up front, I am sorry but I have never and will never really agree with playing 1 striker up front. Cannot understand the reasons for playing Corica up front, he is a creative player and is completely wasted in such a position. Jorge must be doing is nut in! He needs help up front, someone to take a bit of weight off his shoulders to enable him to perform to the standards we know he can.
Defence looks ok apart from the donkey from Spain, what CL sees in him I will never know.
And please dont bring back Pedro, he is useless. For gods sake keep Simpson and use him. O'Connor a must, Sonner a let down for his foolish sending off when I thought he had started his Walsall career well.
Come on Colin, sort this shambles out NOW.

By popperpancake on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 09:48 am: Edit

It is strange that CL is still picking a lone striker after going to so much trouble to attract 2/3 strikers to the club over the close and early season weeks. Understandable when we had the injuries but now seems strange. I'm not against the system of a one player playing off the striker but if u play like that u need midfield players breaking past the floating player. We don't really have that....in fact the only player we have who does it from midfield (wrack) seems incapable of finishing. (But it explains why CL keeps picking him). 3-5-2 formation seems interesting...not something i'd usually like but it does seem the best way to solve our problems...ie more support in the final third and where corica can fit in. Its interesting that the dingles i know all said CL is a negative coach...i dispelled this theory when he came at the end of last season...but know im wondering whether we played the way we did then purely because the need for 3 points was so great. Now its a more regular season situation that attitude seems to have gone. Hope thats not correct.

By cat3 on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 11:30 am: Edit

I can understand our players want to succeed badly, however, we didn't at the end. How come? Is it we don't have enough talents? Is it we don't have the extra guys at the bench to bail us out when injuries crimping up to hunt us? Or is it we lacked focus and believe upon winning? And the cards flashed out each game, are we getting more and more intense as the heat builds up?

We have a bunch of talented players and they all want to win. They want to win ever-so-badly just to show to themselves and to the Walsall fans out there enchanting them and supporting them 24/7... We have a winning combination, a bunch of solid defenders, midfielders and strikers. Furthermore, we got a wonderful stopper, why are we still on the losing side of the track? Did we lack faith? Nope... Sonner got sent off with a wonderful display of "let's flip the burger inside out," and what a showcase he made, losing control of his temper. He's not the only guy who's stressed out on the pitch, in fact, the whole team is kind of worn out with lack of composure. They desperatively want to win, and they all played hard, ever-so-hard, but they forgot the most fundamental way soccer is all about, that is, soccer suppose to be a game, a fun game, an enjoyable game to play and watch by all the fans. Everybody wants to win, but if we get "winnings" over our heads, we will never succeed, and we will never display the dazzling footwork or creativity within the game itself.

We lacked goals, and we need to score goals to win games. Somehow, our team just have to sit down together on the pitch and think about what soccer is all about again, why are they playing on the field today. What's it about that gotten them started as a professional footballer? They just need to step aside from the realistic fact and think back what THEIR game is about. Talk it over, there's still hope from making to the top!

We played total madness on the field, and blaming one another won't solve the problem, it will just let us down further and further again. I just hope the guys will see this in themselves and play some wonderful footies at home for the home crowd. Fans pay their hard earnings to come and cheer for them to win, and let's play a fun game. Win or lose, let's put that aside, all we want is just goals... That's basic enough right? 30 yards out from the box at the upper left or right corner, or a dazzling 1-2-1 passes in the box and score, or just a whopper from right or left side and headed in. That's what we want and that's football, something we all want to cheer about. GOALS!!!

By popperpancake on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 11:44 am: Edit

My favourite ever cat3 post.

By Ronald McDonald on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 12:07 pm: Edit

Mine to, I can't wait to use the phrase "flip the burger inside out" at the pub tomorrow.

By Ronald MacDonald on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 12:09 pm: Edit

hmmm... 'flipping the burger inside out', we may have to try that one

By Ronald 1 on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Dear Ronald 2,

how annoyed are you I just beat you to that?

Yours

Ronald 1

By Chris Owen on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 01:30 pm: Edit

Let us suppose for a moment that a few months ago I did something stupid at work, for which my manager publicly reprimanded me. Then, in the intervening period, I go and do similarly stupid things, culminating in one spectacularly stupid incident which caused great damage to the reputation of my employer. I would expect to be sacked, I would deserve to be sacked, and I would get the sack. So why the hell is Danny Sonner still employed by this club?

What makes it worse is that we have a far more influential player currently playing for nothing, who is likely to leave us. When Fitz has played, we have won points. When he has not, we have lost. I would have thought that the logic of that was disarmingly simple. But no, this is football.

And whilst we're asking questions, why the hell have we not yet figured out that playing Jorge as a lone striker does not work? Lee's admiration for Corica is blinding him tho the fact that the rest of the team formation is going to pot in trying to accommodate him. Colin - football is a team game - the unit has to function as a whole.

So - sack Sonner for gross misconduct, sign Fitz, and play the formation suggested by Neil Ravenscroft earlier in the thread. Otherwise we're due for a hard winter.

By rico on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 01:45 pm: Edit

Steve Corica has turned from being our saviour to being our biggest problem through no fault of his own!

Colin believes the sun shines out of his backside but there's about as much chance of him playing him in an out-and-out midfield position or dropping him compleatley, as flying to the moon on a damp firework!!

WE NEED TWO STRIKERS FOR GOD'S SAKE. WHY THE HELL HAVE WE BOUGHT TWO NEW ONES WHEN WE KEEP PLAYING JORGE ON HIS OWN!!!!!!

4-4-2!!! YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE!!!

By Manc Saddler on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 02:17 pm: Edit

Can anybody clarify exactly where Corica played when at Leicester and Wolves?

By Snip Zimmer on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 02:18 pm: Edit

"...so lets revert back to the 4-4-2 which has worked for the last 4 or 5 seasons"
Like under Ray then?

"As for discipline we must stop getting red and yellow cards..."
Like under Ray then?

By SheffieldSaddler on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Chris Owen - I do not understand the first part of your post in regards Sonner. When did Lee publicly reprimand Sonner a few months ago? I must have missed that one.
Also what are all the other stupid things he has done in the last few months?

By Tim Wilkes on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 03:10 pm: Edit

I spy with my little eye, something beginning with 'L'.

Is it:
a. lack of tactical nous shown by management and players at a simple change in formation by the opposition.
b. Lesser spotted number 26 shirt, with Bukran on the back.

Actually, it was both.

By rico on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 03:22 pm: Edit

Snip Zimmer,

The players in our squad and the positions that they are used to playing in lend itself to playing 4-4-2.

Let's leave all the fancy 3-5-1-1 or 4-3-1-2 etc.
to real footballers in the premiership who know how to apply them and have got the skill to play them!!

By ronald2 on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 03:24 pm: Edit

Ronald 1 - very, changing my name via deed pol

rgds

Hamburgler

By Stu on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 03:30 pm: Edit

Rico, in all fairness, we did use the 4-3-1-2 to great affect for a few games last season, up until switching to 4-4-1-1. Again, something we did with great affect.

I dont see why people are questioning the formation. Saturday's performance wasn't that bad, we just lacked the finishing touch. The formation wont make Jorge or Corica put the ball in the back of the net!

The only thing I'd change would be to pair O'Connor with Sonner (even though he was a twerp), and play Corica behind two strikers. Simple as that.

By Chris Owen on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 03:50 pm: Edit

Sheff - I don't believe CL was best pleased when Sonner got himself 'subbed' by the ref in a pre-season friendly. Since then he's had a string of yellow cards, at least one for dissent. At very least, he must be on his final warning by now. I expect combative midfielders to pick up cards, but dissent and violent conduct are unecessary, and a real burden with a small squad, which is already light on quality central midfield players. Holdsworth was a good player too, but had the same weakness, and was let go, albeit because we were able to choose not to take up his contract.

The bigger question I was asking I suppose, it at what point players can get themselves sacked for misconduct or incompetence - or are we just saddled with them, regardless? Bosman, as I understand it, was about giving players the same rights as other workers to change employers. Isn't it about time those employers also had the right to dismiss those employees for the same reasons the rest of us might face dismissal?

Steve Roy, if you're reading, could you advise how I get my user name, fensaddler, back please? I'm posting as such, until it actually comes up on screen.

By Geordiesaddler on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 04:06 pm: Edit

See Leicester City and Dennis Wise. If you can't get the sack for breaking a colleague's jaw I doubt if a sacking for poor disciplin on the park would wash with the powers that be. It's a quirk of the new transfer system that the old punishment of putting someone on the transfer list doesn't really apply anymore . I think they should use the fine to pay Fitz's wages during Sonner's suspension. Fitz has played really well under Lee both last season and this, he's on record as saying he would love to stay and is a good influence on the dressing room (apparently). Don't know what more he has to do to get a contract and I hope he's fit to play this week.

By Dave Hawkes on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 04:13 pm: Edit

I know Sonner was a complete arse, but maybe he will take a good look at himself after this match, serve his suspension, and work his socks off when he gets back.

Jorge may look a bit fat and low on confidence, but for christs sake give the bloke the ball and he will score. One chance at Brighton and he nailed it. He might look out of touch, but he needs a partner and some bloody service.

I'd like to see a more old fashioned midfield, with Corica partnering O'Connor, and with wingers, maybe even playing Fitz on the left for his sweet left foot and ability to help Zigor defensively. Then pop Herivelto or Roddy on the right wing.

Manc Saddler, according to my Dingle mate, the only position Steve Corica occupied at the Custard Bowl was that of sitting on the treatment table...

By Neil Ravenscroft on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 05:17 pm: Edit

Dingles have short memories. Lee tried to play him both up front and on the right wing for the Tatters. Neither worked very well. I still think we should be fitting in a formation behind Corica and two stikers which gives us a bit of solidity. That can only be 3 5 1 2.

By Tim Wilkes on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 05:38 pm: Edit

I agree Neil, but how long will we get away with selecting 12 players?

By Ian Gittins on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 05:39 pm: Edit

I think we'll be lucky to get away with 3-5-1-2...

By Ian Gittins on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 05:40 pm: Edit

... unless the 1 is Wacka, and we're playing rushback goalie.

By rico on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Neil,

It would be great to play 3-5-1-2 as we would have twelve players on the park (including Walker)

By Dave Hawkes on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 06:26 pm: Edit

If the twelfth player happened to be Wracky, I doubt anyone would notice the fact that we had too many people on the pitch...

By Dave Gittins on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 07:11 pm: Edit

The way we're going we need to start with 12 on the pitch then we may have a chance of finishing with 11.

By Stu on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 07:44 pm: Edit

Chris, he hasn't had a string of yellow cards. His had 2 in 6 games! Thats not much, and Roper already has 3 in 6 to his name and Bazeley has 2.

Yes, he was stupid. And I was fuming on the way home from Saturdays game, but, after calming down, he is still one of our better players.

I'd love to see Fitz, O'Connor and Sonner in a central middle trio. I think that would be our first choice midfield in a 4-3-1-2.

I disagree with Dave, his 29, he'd have calmed down by now. He had always had a wild streak (remember him getting sent off at Bescot last season for Blues!).

It was a stupid thing he did, and I am still very angry with him, but I wouldnt get rid of one of our better players because of that. Thats cutting off our nose to spite our face!

By Neil Ravenscroft on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 08:41 pm: Edit

Failed maths O level twice - shows

By Geoff Whiting on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 08:51 pm: Edit

Express & Star 2nite quotes CL as saying "I have to continue working with Danny Sonner". A lot earlier in this thread I said Lee should p**s Sonner off like he did with David Holdsworth, and make an offer to Fitzroy. I was angry then, and on reflection I have to accept that the contractual arrangements between Saddlers and Holdsworth are different to those with Sonner, so CL probably doesn't have the choice to get rid of him. Having calmed down a bit since Saturday, I also have to admit that Sonner has been one of our best players, even though he had a massive rush of blood to the head at Watford.

We have to hope that CL will hit him hard enough to make sure it's never repeated. I've no problem with bookings for playing the game hard and maybe mis-timing the odd tackle - most of us will have done similar to that in our own involvement at a lower level of the game - but we have to cut out the stupid dissent and similar bookings, not just Sonner, but others in the side as well. Dissent is futile, it NEVER gets you any advantage, but it NEARLY ALWAYS gets you a yellow card. Then - one more mistake during the game - and you're off. Why do these professionals not see this, for God's sake ?

On reflection, I like Neil's 3-5-1-2, as long as the ref and the opponents don't notice the twelve we've got on the pitch. As they probably will, the alternative that I think is right is 3-4-1-2, that's :

Hay, Carbon, Roper,
Bazeley, O'Connor, Sonner, Aranalde
Corica
Leitao, Junior

The back three have proved themselves to be pretty solid so far.

Bazeley attacks well down the right, so gets forward in support and gets crosses in. Aranalde same as Bazeley but on the left. I'd rather see Fitzroy than Zigor, but I think Fitz is on his way to Saudi so I've not included him. Wrack's useless out left so he isn't in my 11.
Zigor's a liability defending, and I wouldn't normally include him in my first 11, but over the past couple of years he has shown his best form coming forward down the left, so it could be worth at least giving him an opportunity to see what he can do in this more advanced role.

For me, O'Connor and Sonner are automatic first choices to complete the midfield 4.

Corica is a problem to place in the formation, but he's a strong runner and has a hand in most things we create. With two strikers ahead of him he has more options, and he can also drop back into the midfield formation to make a 5 if against the stronger opponents we find ourselves over-run.

Up front, Leitao has struggled badly, but with Junior pulling the defence around Jorge should have more space to exploit and his lack of cutting edge and suspect first touch might not be so crucial, so I'd give Jorge the chance of a run with Junior. The two front men should create more space for each other, and get on the end of some of Bazeley's and Zigor's crosses.

I hope Colin doesn't play a weakened side tomorrow vs Shrewsbury, I'd rather see him experiment with the first choice men along the above lines, really go at Shrewsbury and floor 'em with an avalanche of goals' What a good confidence builder that would be for players and fans alike. Even though against lower opposition, a 6-0 or so is always a good result, and we should be capable of doing that as long as we don't show any complacency.

I almost didn't bother to reserve my seat, but had a change of heart today, rang up to book it, and I now feel much more positive.

Now please Colin, let's have a strong aggressive team out tomorrow and use it for some morale building. BUT PLEASE, PLEASE make sure there's NO DISSENT !

By Neil Ravenscroft on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 09:11 pm: Edit

Having admitted to my lack of mathematical prowess, the formation and personnel are what I was getting at. It would, however, with the lack of cover, mean a reversion to 4 4 2 if there are injuries or suspensions. I suppose Harry could be considered cover for Corica?

By Ken Armstrongs Knee on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Harry could cover Corica, yes, assuming they'd gone for a walk in the Arbo, and it started to rain, and Harry had his umbrella with him, and was willing to share it. But other than that situation, no, he is not cover for Corica, or in fact anyone at all.

By Geoff Whiting on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 10:18 pm: Edit

I agree, no-one else plays Corica's style.

Harry's too unaware of players around him. Kind of head-down, beat four men, lose the ball to man number 5, forgetting there are other players he could look to pass it to. Occasionally beats man number 5 and gets a shot in, but not often enough. I think Junior might prove to be similar, I hope I'm wrong. Perhaps I'm being a little over-the-top, it's just how I see them though.

Unfortunately I'm not happy that either of them are true TEAM players, though it's a bit early to judge properly with Junior. It's for sure though that Harry doesn't really understand about the hard work, tracking back to help the midfield or defence once he's lost the ball and gets stranded upfield. Either Harry or Junior could be OK as out and out strikers further up the field with Jorge, but sorry, no way do I see either of them as cover for Corica.

By Stu on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 10:27 pm: Edit

We cant judge Junior, not even slightly. So lets leave him out please, we've seen about 30 mins of him in two games we lost!

As for Harry, he may not be identical to Corica, but he could play that role. Harry CAN make things happen, he can create a chance out of nothing, 3 cameo roles against Ipswich, Wolves and Sheff Utd prove this. He is a player who I'd always have on the bench, I've stated time and time before I wouldnt start him due to his lack of defensive ability. But, when you want to turn a draw into a win or a defeat into a draw, he is a great player to have on the bench to bring on.

By Geoff Whiting on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 01:07 am: Edit

Yes Stu, you're right about Harry coming on as a sub. He can make things happen when there's a need to change a game, but Colin doesn't really seem to bring subs on early enough to let them really get into the game - I thought Ray Graydon was the same. I say we should get him (and other subs) on with some meaningful time still on the clock.

But I still don't see him in a Corica role, working just behind the attack, but more as an out-and-out forward alongside Jorge or whoever.

I was expressing my opinion on the preferred starting 11, and you obviously agree that does not include Harry, and I know we've not seen much of Junior, but what I have seen has given me the impression of a similar player to Harry - I hope I'm wrong and he turns out to be an 80 - 90 minute team player who'll track back and help the defence as well as get forward - I can't leave him out of my comment as you suggest - it's my opinion - and you have yours, which I fully respect. I'll obviously prefer it if you turn out to be right though.

By Exile on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 04:59 am: Edit

Yes! Harry as our super sub. Is he Solskjaer in disguise?

Chers all,
Exile

By flownswift on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 08:25 am: Edit

4-3-1-2
bazeley, roper, carbon, aranalde,
sonner, o'connor, fitz
corica,
jorge, birch/zdrillic/junior

with harry a permenant fixture on the bench, (plus the other subs, of course).

By Neil Ravenscroft on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 10:22 am: Edit

That's the alternative. The only worry I'd have with that is lack of width. Certainly a Jorge/Dzrillic or Jorge/Birch partnership would need delivery from the flanks.

By Geordiesaddler on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 11:20 am: Edit

Which I guess Neil is back to square number one. Also if you go to a flat back 4 you have the liablility which is Aranalde playing as full-back.
I thought the 3 centre-backs looked ok, and until the sub came on Bazeley did a good job as right wing back, problem was there was nothing in the box to cross to. I would (and I know this ain't
gonna happen), play Walker,
Roper, Hay, Carbon
Bazeley, Corica, Sonner, O'Connor, Fitz
2 from the 4 strikers.

Given that Aranalde will definately retain his place I would play fitz on the left side of midfield and drop Sonner (bearing mind he'll be out for 3 games anyhow). That way at least we've got some balance to the team, with someone on the left who can pass the ball.

By Neil Ravenscroft on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 11:29 am: Edit

This might be a little academic for the Burnley game, as it looks like Hay will be called up for New Zealand's 2 match tour.

By SheffieldSaddler on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 11:51 am: Edit

Why worry about the lack of width? When was the last time any of our so called wingers put in a decent few crosses?
You know, take a player on, get to the by-line, stuff like that.
I dont think we have a player at the club who is capable of doing this for a full match.

By flownswift on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 12:43 pm: Edit

but we do have a holding midfielder in there to cover centre hlaves as either fullback gets down the wing, the fullbacks would have to provide the width, both are very capable attacking fullbacks. In my formation above I was relying on both fullbacks making the extra man on the flanks, when we have the ball.

By Stu on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 09:06 pm: Edit

It least CL looks to know our problem, as we're playing the two strikers with O'Connor and Sonner holding and Corica attacking. Exactly what myself, and plenty of others suggested.

By popperpancake on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 11:16 pm: Edit

It worked well too. Maybe we should be in charge. Altho to be fair corica didn't plat behind the front 2 he just played as an orthodox midfielder.

By Jeremy Busby on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 05:09 am: Edit

Neil, very intereted to see you mention a New Zealand tour. Speaking from Christchurch New Zealand, what tour?? Unless I have missed it there is nothing close for our National Team. Exile, do you know something?

By Ann O Wrack on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 08:21 am: Edit

12.10.02 Estonia. 16.10.02 Poland. Its on soccer nz site.

By Exile on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 09:02 pm: Edit

Beaten by the geek. Hay will get the call-up as it is a shed load cheaper to fly him from the UK than it is any NZ based player (although I will admit that there appear to be no NZ-based players, looking at the Auckland Kingz (Chelsea of the Southern Hemisphere).....

Afraid I will not be one of the travelling Kiwi Barmy Army, but I will rest easy knowing that there are thousands more in the UK willing to take my place!

No doubt the Kiwis are uising this as an excuse to go scout the venues for next year's Confederations Cup, in which they are surely favourites to finish last, but will at least come home knowing that they are a million squids better off than the Aussies they beat to get there. Ha ha.

Cheers all
Exile

PS - I was looking forward to getting on the lash with Gazza, but it doesn't look too likely now!

By Warsaw Pact (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 12:56 pm: Edit

So, he'll be playing in Warsaw then?

Spookey!

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