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Notts Forest (a) - League - 14th February 2004

Reports and reaction from the 2003-04 season as Walsall finished 22nd (R) in Division 1
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Notts Forest (a) - League - 14th February 2004

Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:11 pm

By kevin (195.93.34.9) on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Well.I was gonna say THE result of the season.But would have took a draw beforehand,given all the circumstances.

By Walsall Supporter (82.37.192.189) on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 06:03 pm: Edit

All I can say is so much for Jimmy Walker being back in goal!

By RW (81.128.188.240) on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 06:04 pm: Edit

That doesn't make it alright though does it, I'd have demanded three at half time.

Rubbish, no other word for it.

Lee, your becoming tiresome.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Would have took a draw before hand? Jesus what ambition you have got. A team who have scored 1 goal in 9 matches took an incredible 3 minutes to score against us! A team who have not won in 14 league matches!
Normal case of sitting back and waiting for the opposition to score no doubt! Thats 4 points chucked away in last 2 matches alone.
And before someone comes on and says "But they had a new manager". So bl**dy what. We were winning 3-1 with 45 minutes left against a team who had not won in 14 league matches. PATHETIC.

By RW (81.128.188.240) on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 06:13 pm: Edit

Can't agree more SS.

By 45minute Saddler (217.43.156.88) on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 06:18 pm: Edit

What the "$%! does Lee say in his half-time team talks?

Hugely disappointing but unfortunately highly predictable.

By reading saddler (195.112.44.203) on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 06:35 pm: Edit

the kick

By Pelsall/ Oxford Saddler (62.254.128.4) on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 07:01 pm: Edit

How frustrating! I was listening to the game over the internet. Gutted. It's just so galling when we manage to let such a promising position slip from our grasp.

But that's what we sign up for when we support Walsall. Lets just hope we can keep on scoring some goals.

By Surrey Saddler (195.93.34.9) on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 07:21 pm: Edit

Gutted, grumpty , miserable, cynical- see my post on Bonsor. Need three points next week, that's for sure.

By Jak (194.66.175.70) on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 07:26 pm: Edit

At least we didn't lose!

Is 50 points gonna be enough this season every reckon?

By bournemouthsaddler (80.3.164.4) on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 08:37 pm: Edit

50 will be plenty.Getting them is the problem.

By Delves Saddler (82.37.162.58) on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 09:04 pm: Edit

Mmmm. How many people predicted we would lose to a team who have recruited a new manager 48 hours before playing a team who lose to clubs who have just recruited new managers (Walsall). Hands up......

Zigor superb. Carbon superb (am I really saying that???). Wales Superb. Jorge superb.

Happy with a point? Yes I am.

Lee out? No. For those fickle barclays at the back who were singing and dancing at 3-2 and singing Lee out at 3-3 - F*CK OFF!

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 09:06 pm: Edit

How can you be happy with a point having led half time 3-1 against a team sh*t team?

By Jman (82.37.172.170) on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 09:18 pm: Edit

Zigor was crap, He's a liabilty, he should of cleared ont he first goal and gave the ball away 2-3 times in dodgy positions where Forest Should of Capitaziled.

Agree that Carbon was Suberb

Thought Lee's subs were a joke, with 1 min to go why bring on a player that doesn't get stuck in, never plays well away from home and it completley wrecked our shape

By RW (81.128.22.101) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 03:11 am: Edit

MMMMM.yerself

It dosent matter what we'd have predicted or hoped for before the game Delves for f*ck's sake. 3-1 up at half time. Forest were bound to come out and go for it second half, they had nothing to lose. Do we go for a forth and try to kill the game off or try and play the game out. The same arguments. If your happy with a point from that mush, then you f*ck off.

By RW (81.128.22.101) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 03:12 am: Edit

MMMMM.yerself

It dosent matter what we'd have predicted or hoped for before the game Delves for f*ck's sake. 3-1 up at half time. Forest were bound to come out and go for it second half, they had nothing to lose. Do we go for a forth and try to kill the game off or try and play the game out. If your happy with a point from that mush, then you f*ck off.

By reading saddler (195.112.44.203) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 05:08 am: Edit

kinda agree with delves. too b honest if you say b4 the match would be grateful with a draw then too b honest imo you should stick with that view point .... agree should of won but bloody hell 3-3 thats a dramatic finish didnt see it but was glued to sky sports and i knew it was going to happen at 3-2 up they said carbon was man of the match he must of played his heart out.. whats that conceded 13 in four games thats an average of 3 a game ... no good colin

By df (193.237.102.207) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 10:46 am: Edit

Sheff, I understand your point about not being satisfied with a point given Forest's recent record but given the fact we still can't help but look over our shoulders yesterday was a must not lose game. In that context I can also understand how other contributors are happy with a point.
However at 3-1 and with their defence looking to have more holes than St Andrews you really have to go on and win the bloody game. Given what happened last week, our second half performance (with the exception of Wakka, Carbon & Nelly) was nothing short of disgraceful and it's time for people to stand up and be counted. At the moment we're frittering points all over the place and we simply can't afford to be so wasteful. In addition, Lee's inability to alter the direction of a game is really getting to me.
I'm finding it really difficult to get over this one.

By Neil Ravenscroft (82.37.184.186) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 10:52 am: Edit

Do people really think that the half time team talk was "sit back and let them score 2?"

It almost certainly was (and any Manager would have said the same), "more of the same please". Blame the players!

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 10:59 am: Edit

It is obvious to me that Colin Lee is instructing his players to defend a lead and completely sacrifice all attacking instincts. How can he say he isn't? We do it too often for him not to be giving those orders.

He says he doesn't and that his players take it upon themselves to do this. Well if this is the case then they obviously don't listen to a word you say so either way Lee has no positive effect on the team whatsoever.

We go in at half time with a 3-1 lead. Does he not think to himself by acheiving this that the team have got the better of the opposition by playing attacking football, so why stop!!!

Delves your argument about settling for a draw beforehand just doesn't stand up. We were leading a bottom 3 team 3-1 at half time. You have to judge that on it's merits so how can you be happy with a draw. Would you be happy if we led 6-0 at half time but ended up drawing 6-6 just because you would have settled for a draw before the game started.

We are now in a serious relegation dogfight. We haven't won a game in god knows how long. We are leaking goals like no tomorrow and teams below us have games in hand. Next weeks game against Watford is a must 3 points. If we don't get a win then there is not one decent arguement for Lee not to be sacked.

By ShropshireSaddler (195.92.168.164) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 11:04 am: Edit

I think you've hit the nail on the head Neil. "More of the same" is not good enough at this level. Tactically, Lee is way below par in this league. Time and time again, teams adjust their play in the second half and we're unable to match that adjustment.
I think it says alot about the other teams that they take 45mins to adjust to us when their scouts should have done their work in advance but the fact is that other managers are beating us tactically.
Keys to playing against Walsall are;
i) Stop Samways getting the ball - he holds us together
ii)Put pressure on Aranalde - guaranteed to make mistakes in every game
iii)Throw crosses into the box
iv) Push men forward because Walsall will sit deeper and deeper to respond.

By Esso (213.48.83.64) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 11:23 am: Edit

What is it they say about it being easy to support a successful team. We all know that supporting the Saddlers is going to be a roller coaster ride and so it is proving to be. I cannot imagine that CL tells the team to defend in the second half as some of you are suggesting but I have to concede that second half performances over several games have not been good. Still I have to admit that I would have taken a point before the game.
BRING ON WATFORD>

By Cal's a saddler (81.135.106.47) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 11:34 am: Edit

I'm happy with a point because if they'd have got any longer left to play they could have taken all three points!
I can't believe CL sends the players out for the second half telling them to defend so far back its just suicidal!
But it really is like watching a jekell&Hide team. They can play so well at times for 45 mins then second half they fail to play at all!

By Jorge14 (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 11:34 am: Edit

Yet more drivel from Cox...other than the fact we're in the relegation dogfight.

It CAN'T be all Lee's making...fair enough, he would have expected Forest to come at us, and would have understandably told the players to sit back a little in the first 10 minutes to whether the storm. Unfortunately, we weren't strong enough to do that. Something which isn't entirely Lee's fault.

And once again by the way, Lee and Halsall were going ballistic on the touchline. Maybe people should watch Lee for 5 minutes, and then say he has no passion for this job.

twerp at the back again unfortunately. What were you singing...3-1 up...having a laff...taking the ••••???
And then you have the audacity to start singing for Lee's head...Absolute crap the lot of you.

As a bloke behind me said...I'm sure Lee would pay attention if you weren't a group of pissed up 14 year-olds.

Another quality comment about the lack of good singing from our "boys".

"We're not round an f'n camp fire...they'll start singing GinGanguly in a minute!"

Thought Carb's was immense yesterday...Embo did well to slot in in defence. Vinny played very well, as did Osborn. Jorge and Wales were excellent up front, but Jorge is anonymous on the wing.

Zigor is a liability, and if his mistakes had been taken by Marlon King, he could have had 4 goals. He was shocking.

Thank god for Wacka in goals is all I can say...

By Manchester Saddler (80.5.160.4) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 11:52 am: Edit

A draw away to a Forest team rejuvenated by the fact that they have a new manager is not as bad a result as certain posters on this site make out.

CoxandDrummie, in particular, once again you dwell on the negatives in the game in your quest to see Lee sacked. You never look at the positives at all. You are a "glass half empty" person.

If you take time to analyze the game, and look at the positives you will see that we actually had a two goal lead against a team playing with a brand new manager (time and again teams wins their first game with a new manager - look at Colin Lee himself - a 2-1 win away to Premiership Charlton). OK we threw away the lead and I am as gutted by that as anybody. At half time I was delighted at full time totally p1ssed off we lost out on 2 points. But at least we did get a point away from home albeit against a bottom three team.

Try to be positive CoxandDrummie for once in yer life. We are not in a serious relegation dogfight yet. There is only one relegation place to fill and I still think that Derby and Forest are battling for that honour. We are 6 points clear of Derby and have played the same number of games.

We maybe leaking goals but we are actually scoring goals as well if you hadn't noticed.

By Chris Owen (213.48.83.111) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 11:55 am: Edit

Am I alone in thinking we were actually a little lucky to be 3-1 up at half time yesterday? Sure, we got three, and because it was all up the other end it was a little difficult to see how and why, but back at our end, Forest constantly threatened with pace, and the reason Carbon, Wacker, and even Lawrence in the first half, had good games was as much because of the robust and effective challenges they made in defence, than about anything we did in attack. One absolutely world class save from Wacker kept us in it at 1-1 let us not forget. Sure, we were more fluent in the first half, but the risk was always there that Forest had the motivation, the players, and the crowd to get some momentum going if they got one back.

Meanwhile, we've got to remember we had a patched up team drawing on a very thin squad, and several players delivered performances well above the average, even in the context of slipping back to 3-3. Given the squad they have, Forest's position seems way too low, they were at home with a big crowd behind them, and all their players had something to play for. There were at least two shocking refereeing decisions against us in the second half - the first which allowed their second goal to stand at all after Aranalde was fouled, and the second not even a foul, let alone a booking, for a filthy tackle on Gary Wales which virtually ended his game as a notable force. I'd have loved to see us win, but in the circumstances, I think we should be glad of the point - it could easily have been worse, and our players deserve some considerable credit for much of the performance. As does Colin Lee, given the limited resources he has to work with - the question has to be who could we get who could do a better job? And my answer is that we probably have one of the best candidates already in the post, for all that he doesn't always get it right, or do what the fans want him to.

Finally, credit to the Forest fans, who got behind their team and made a real difference - there was a really intimidating atmosphere in there even at 3-1 down. My gripe if anything was with the PA build up before the match, which just annoys the hell out of me, and the contrast between the choreographed ballyhoo when Forest scored, compared to the deliberate and sullen silence when we did - we had to wait at least two minutes for the scorer to be announced, and that apparently only because they needed to announce the time of the goal for those gambling on it.

Fensaddler

By Neil Ravenscroft (82.37.184.186) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 12:03 pm: Edit

The glass half full argument works, of course. You are without your first choice centre back through suspension and go one down in three minutes. You then lose your other first choice centre back through injury and have to play a midfielder there, bringing on as sub a player with no confidence, as elements in the crowd boo him before he gets on. You are without your principal playmaker (absent), his replacement (injured) and the only other player you have who can fill in (late injury), which disrupts yor plans. Despite all this, you score 3 times. Second half, the opposition, having got a real bollocking from their new manager at half time, and in front of 21,000 home fans, only get back into the game via a poor refereeing decision when your left back is clearly fouled. They are lifted, throw everything but the kitchen sink at you, but you manage to hold on until injury time without your keeper having to make many real saves, when they get a somewhat lucky equaliser when the ref fails to spot a hand ball.
This is a bad performance? The manager isn't congratulated for putting together a fine team performance, despite the adverse circumsatnces? Is this a tale of the Wolves?

By Stu (195.92.67.75) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 12:49 pm: Edit

Neil,

Unfortunately some people just love whinging and wanting to find the fault with everything.

People keep wondering why our performances are so drastically different in the 2nd half... Its been quite obvious for weeks, and its the exact reason that Lee brought O'Neill in and wants to bring O'Neill in.

The fact is, we don't have the energy levels and tempo to step up a game when a team come at us. Yesterday our midfield started with Samways (35), Emblen (31/32), Osborn (30). Then we brough on a 33 yr old to replace the 31 yr old who moved into defence.

They simple don't have the legs or energy to match a lot of younger players. Its no surprise that Samways always has less impact as a game goes on, teams simply out-hassle us.

I can't believe Sheff refuses to take the "new manager" syndrome into account, we alls aw first hand what affect that can do when Lee came in.

When our own fans are having a go at players when they come on, it just stinks of Dingle-itis... I imagine that when Lawrence put the 2nd goal in, all those knocking him refused to celebrate the goal? Or if they did, they then didn't barrack him when he made a mislaid pass or something later on in the game?

It is widely acknowledged that fans have an impact on their teams performances, when fans can be as negative as ours have been this season it really is no wonder they struggle sometimes.

I have to admit that I really havne't enjoyed this season, and its not been the football, but the attitude of the fans. The fans who think we have a right to a Top 10 place, rather than having to earn it, the fans who constantly get on the backs of players during a match, the twerp behind me who refers to Lee as "Dingle"...

The more I look at our fans, the more they remind of the Wolves fans did over the last few years.

We've had to work bloody hard to get where we are, and we'll have to work bloody hard to stay where we are. I wish people would just recognise that.

By Mark W (81.132.181.98) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Having not gone yesterday (due to the fact I cannot stand the frustration of the all too familiar second half performances following the motivational half time talk from our glorious leader)i'm probably not entitled to comment.
I did however ring a friend who has not missed a game all season at the final whistle who was seething at the second half performance --again!
Listening on WM was torture as it was obvious that forest would score.Thank god time ran out for them.
I agree with Sheff for once --pathetic against a team who had not even scored in 7.
I admire the opptimism of people like Neil but after defeat at home to Watford next week even he may wake up and smell the coffee.

By Markw (81.132.181.98) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 01:04 pm: Edit

Oh..and who do I blame --Bonser!We are a so called first div club being run on the same level of a club like Scunthorpe.
If we go down will he be upset?No! He hardly ever attends games anyway and his income level will not change next year in div.2.
It may even be a blessing if we go down as with the budget being cut by a further 1/2 million nextseason will be a total embarrasment if we remain in div.1.
I'm sick of hearing how much we pay for policing bills etc..This is the same for everybody.Either find the money for at least 2 more quality players this season or f'k off!

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 01:21 pm: Edit

We had Taylor and Wright on the bench yesterday didnt we? Two young players who would have "the legs or energy to match" a Forest team in the second half.
And what did we do..... Not bring on Taylor and bring on Wright after 80 minutes! Classic. I would have thought yesterdays match would have been ideal for them in the second half, use their pace to get the ball forward when Forest were attacking.
Thats just an excuse "the new manager syndrome", 3-1 up at half time, where was this so called syndrome then?
Added to that people on here say they can see Lee going mad on the touch line to get the players to go forward. Well to be honest I dont believe this. Why? Because it happens too regular, we defend too deep. Now if your manager was shouting instructions to you every match saying you should get forward and you didnt, if I was the manager I would displine the players for not following my instructions. Once again I think this is just an excuse saying Lee wants them to go forward.
As for Lawrence, one goal does not make everything right for all his pathetic, headless chicken displays this season. The bloke is a liability and should leave at the end of the season.
So many matches this season the late goals have been going in because of sitting back. Thats a FACT, the cause of it cannot just lay with the players, some other people need to stand up and be counted as well.

By SS (81.131.26.37) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 01:32 pm: Edit

^^^^^ DAMN RIGHT MARKW

By Stu (195.92.67.75) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Sheff, I really wish you'd be consistent at least. How many times have you said this season that its clear to see Lee urging the team on...

One minute your supporting Lee and saying its all Bonsor's fault, the next its all Lee's fault coz he tells them to defend deep. Make your mind up.

If Wright isn't good enough, then that's why he wasn't playing. Your one of those advocating this with Matty Fryatt by saying if he isn't good enough then he isn't good enough. Whats the difference with Fryatt and Wright?

As for Taylor, fair point. I was surprised he didn't come on when Roper went off to be honest. Although Taylor tired after 60/70 minutes at Stoke, he only had 70 minutes to play yesterday so he'd have been expected to last the game. He'd also have provided balance on the left. So I'll agree that maybe we should have used him. But, pointing to a 20 yr old kid with 1 first team start to his name is the whole essence of the problem. We should be able to get an experienced player to step into that role, not having to ask a young kid.

But how can you ignore the new manager syndrome? You saw this first hand yourself when Lee arrivesd with us.

As for Lawrence. You basically won't give the bloke a chance, so what do you expect. If I were him, I wouldn't be arsed either to be honest.

The bloke is a good player, he has proved that previously. He needs a move now because he has lost the fans and he'll never get them back. But thats because our fans won't give him the chance as well.

By Geordiesaddler (195.92.67.69) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 02:00 pm: Edit

Agree with several points, Stu's about the lack of enjoyment due to the constant anti-lee stuff, and Sheff's re the non-introduction of Taylor and Wright. Mark Wright always looks the part as he did yesterday, he's got pace strength and the ability to hold the ball, its about time he was given a chance considering those seem to be the attributes we are lacking.

Can't believe nobody has mentioned the ref? Their second goal came totally out of the blue, they were not putting us under pressure, it was a clear foul on Aranalde plain and simple, if it wasn't Zigor should have been booked for diving. That gave them the impetus to chase the game, and again I thought we held out well. Didn't ever feel they were gonna score and it took a two handed pass by Marlon King to keep the ball live when Bazeley's clearance was on its was out of the ground. Two really bad decisions in my book. On any given day you would expect at least one of those to go in your favour. But of course it was all Lee's fault really.

Whatever the effects of new manager syndrome don't forget Forest had three new signings in the team, when was the last time Lee had that luxury?
Considering we had a scratch team out I thought all the players worked hard, played some good stuff and you can't really ask any more then that. We are just in a run of things going against us. Problem is the next time we scrape a lucky win the same whingers will be on here whinging that its a travesty we played crap but won.

By Stu (195.92.67.75) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Sheff, I really wish you'd be consistent at least. How many times have you said this season that its clear to see Lee urging the team on...

One minute your supporting Lee and saying its all Bonsor's fault, the next its all Lee's fault coz he tells them to defend deep. Make your mind up.

If Wright isn't good enough, then that's why he wasn't playing. Your one of those advocating this with Matty Fryatt by saying if he isn't good enough then he isn't good enough. Whats the difference with Fryatt and Wright?

As for Taylor, fair point. I was surprised he didn't come on when Roper went off to be honest. Although Taylor tired after 60/70 minutes at Stoke, he only had 70 minutes to play yesterday so he'd have been expected to last the game. He'd also have provided balance on the left. So I'll agree that maybe we should have used him. But, pointing to a 20 yr old kid with 1 first team start to his name is the whole essence of the problem. We should be able to get an experienced player to step into that role, not having to ask a young kid.

But how can you ignore the new manager syndrome? You saw this first hand yourself when Lee arrivesd with us.

As for Lawrence. You basically won't give the bloke a chance, so what do you expect. If I were him, I wouldn't be arsed either to be honest.

The bloke is a good player, he has proved that previously. He needs a move now because he has lost the fans and he'll never get them back. But thats because our fans won't give him the chance as well.

By Jorge14 (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 02:21 pm: Edit

I thought Lawrence looked lively yesterday. He got stuck in, was always looking to move the ball out of defence (something no-one else was towards the end) and was harrying Forest's players constantly. It was his best performance of the season by a country mile.

I think Ozzie's performance justified his selection. I honestly don't care what others think about him, he always looks composed,and is, in fairness to him, rarely caught in possession, even Samways is guilty of that.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.170) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 02:36 pm: Edit

Well I posted this on another thread, but it's relevant to this discussion and backs up what others have said, so I'm posting it here as well.

Might we have hung on and won if Marlon King hadn't grabbed Aranalde and pulled him to the ground to give himself a free header for their second ? Well I think we probably would. After an energetic start to the second half by Forest, I thought they were beginning to look very frustrated, and I'd just made that exact comment to Chris alongside me moments before the second goal went in.

That crucial second goal should NEVER have stood, yet it lifted both the Forest team and the crowd, and gave them the hope and the heart to press on for the equaliser.

I was there, and listening in to the commentary on BBC Radio Nottingham, the presenters were amazed that the Ref didn't disallow the goal. It was also confirmed by Chris Kamara on Sky this morning, who said he was there and that the goal should clearly not have been given.

Sky also showed their equaliser came after a hand ball off a Bazeley clearance, from which the ball rebounded to a Forest player out left, who delivered the cross for the goal. Some may say is was accidental handball and the ball was fired at the player, but his hands were up above his head and if that had been our defender handling in that way, you can bet your life that a penalty would have been given.

So OK, blame the team to some extent for letting the game slip, but once again officials have failed to make two crucial decisions in our favour, and that's cost us two more points.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 02:38 pm: Edit

Stu - I have seen Lee on occasions urge the players forward, but my thinking is, if your manager asks you to do something then dont you do it? Especially if he asks you to do it on a number of occasions? Of course you would, whether you agree with it or not. Thats what I am saying. Lee should tell them after the match to obey his instructions, simple.
Shall I tell you the difference with Wright and Fryatt? Age, Wright as first team experience although only a small bit last season. Wright as looked good when he has come on. Wright as pace and would have done well yesterday in my opinion in the circumstances.
So I hope these points answer the qustions from my previous posts.
Oh, and no I wont give a player a chance when he doesnt give us 100%, just like Lawrence hasnt this season. I am not the only one who thinks this and I think you are in a very small minotiry if you think Lawrence is worth a place in the squad even on the bench.
I will also tell you how I ignore the new manager syndrom. 3-1 at half time thats how. Defending deep in the second half cost us the points, not the new manager syndrome as you keep on saying.

By BS (213.48.83.55) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 03:12 pm: Edit

I went to the game yesterday but hurried back for a pi$$ up so didnt have time to post but anyway,
Wacka made two cracking saves but couldnt do nothing about the goals. Bazeley had one of his better games, How long is it going to take before Lee drops Roper?, he is clearly off form and our goals conceeded show that. Carbon was class, i hope he's back to his best. Zigor's fault for two of Forests goals. osbourne gave the ball away too much. Is it me or is samways not playing with any pride, his last two games have been poor. I thought Jorge and Wales looked good together, get rid of Birch.
I told you i started to like lee but he's tiring me out with his constant idea, we'll wait for them to score in the 2nd half and then we'll start playing. Also the consistent excuses, new manager, new players,their fans,our injuries,no merson and our players not fit enough are getting longer. Next week it will be "their shirts were too bright with the sun and everytime we got near them it blared our sight". FOR GODS SAKE you cant come on here and blame Bonser for a defeat, whenever we lose someone says Bonser's got not ambition hes got to go. If it wasnt for bonser we wouldnt be here today. The blokes made some very hard decisions which I praise him for. A defeat next saturday could well be the end of a few things. get a grip you so called professional footballers

By Stu (195.92.67.75) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 03:50 pm: Edit

If they ignore his instructions, because they're that desperate to get the result, what does he do then?

Drop them? He can't do that because we don't have the players to come in.

Its common sense, when things aren't going your way you adopt a defensive mindset. Sunday morning teams do it, our lot did it 3 weeks ago. We were 4-1 up against top of the league who had only conceded 4 goals in 13 matches. They scored 10 minutes after the break to make it 4-2, we immediately panicked and just started defending. Despite me yelling at my defence to push out, they wouldn't, we lost 6-4 in extra time.

When your on the pitch, you do what you think is best. Espeically when your nervous about getting a result.

As for Wright's first team experience, thats a joke. He has made 1 start and 4 subs appearances. Fryatt has made 1 start and 2 subs appearances. How is Wright far more experienced?

I never said Lawrence was worthy of a place in the XVI, but at the same time, if he is in the XVI the bloke will get my support. Espeically if when he gets a chance, he gives it his best shot and proves he is trying. As he did yesterday. See Jorge14's post above re: Lawrence, is it not possible to now say "If you keep that up, we'll support you" or are you saying "You've no chance here, end of story"

If you want to ignore the new manager syndrome AND the fact they signed two new players next week, then your just being ignorant. I'll say it again, if thats the case, then how did we get all those results when Lee first came in? It does count for something, and to pretend it doesn't is naive.

We weren't defending deep until Forest scored their 2nd goal. As soon as that went in, and it should never have been allowed, the players adopted a different mindset. A mindset of "Oh, ••••, lets just make sure we hold on to 3-2", from the side you can't change that.

By BS (213.48.83.55) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 04:06 pm: Edit

I dont agree we cant start right STU, we started Taylor who hadnt played a 1st team ame before and he did so well, so i cant see the problem in playing wright,he cant do worse than what we are watching.

By Stu (195.92.67.75) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 05:19 pm: Edit

In that case, then why don't we just start the entire youth team?

Don't get me wrong, I actually like what little we've seen of Mark Wright. But I said that on the opening day of last season when we drew 1-1 at Sheff Utd and he was our MOTM that day in my opinion.

But, he obviously isn't doing something right as he hasn't even convinced Lee to give him a full time contract.

To me, its just a lack of confidence and I think thats apparent. We look like we did at the beginning of the season, before we got that double victory over Preston & Gillingham.

I've saiSheff, I really wish you'd be consistent at least. How many times have you said this season that its clear to see Lee urging the team on...

One minute your supporting Lee and saying its all Bonsor's fault, the next its all Lee's fault coz he tells them to defend deep. Make your mind up.

If Wright isn't good enough, then that's why he wasn't playing. Your one of those advocating this with Matty Fryatt by saying if he isn't good enough then he isn't good enough. Whats the difference with Fryatt and Wright?

As for Taylor, fair point. I was surprised he didn't come on when Roper went off to be honest. Although Taylor tired after 60/70 minutes at Stoke, he only had 70 minutes to play yesterday so he'd have been expected to last the game. He'd also have provided balance on the left. So I'll agree that maybe we should have used him. But, pointing to a 20 yr old kid with 1 first team start to his name is the whole essence of the problem. We should be able to get an experienced player to step into that role, not having to ask a young kid.

But how can you ignore the new manager syndrome? You saw this first hand yourself when Lee arrivesd with us.

As for Lawrence. You basically won't give the bloke a chance, so what do you expect. If I were him, I wouldn't be arsed either to be honest.

The bloke is a good player, he has proved that previously. He needs a move now because he has lost the fans and he'll never get them back. But thats because our fans won't give him the chance as well.

I have got criticisms of Lee lately, and I have had before as I've said from day one that we haven't got the players to play a high tempo. Despite being a big supporter of Lee and what he has done for us as a football club, I do have my reservations about things at the moment as to me it seems that not all is right within the camp. Whether thats because of Lee I don't know, but I do know he is fighting a losing battle.

Maybe he can't motivate the players at times, maybe he should make changes earlier. But, when your 3-1 up at half time, what do you say apart from "F&&king excellent, keep it up, keep the tempo, keep stretching them."

By David Potter (67.64.184.152) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 05:33 pm: Edit

Their second goal really turned the game.

As has been stated many times, it should never have been allowed. King clearly pushed Aranalde to the ground giving him a free header.

What I don't understand is why the players constantly ignore the manager's instructions? It's becoming pathetic!
You expect pressure from the home side, especially in the second half, but don't invite it! They have enough ammunition, by defending too deep, we give them more.

We're a 45 minute team. A fist half team,we fade in the second and everyone else in the league knows it! Yes, we were unlucky yesterday, had that second been ruled out, we would have won the game comfortably. If we could manage to apply ourselves as well in the second half of matches, as we do in the first, our league position would look a little more comfortable.

The last time I checked, a football game lasts 90 minutes!

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 06:09 pm: Edit

Stu - Where did I say "How is Wright far more experienced" then Fryatt? Just wondered thats all.
It is also nice to be called ignorant because I have a different view to you on a "new manager" syndrome. To be honest I think you are ignorant for believing it in this case. Once again I say we were leading 3-1 at half time. Where was the "new manager" syndrome then? The reason we drew was because we defended to deep, not becasue Joe Kinnear took over.
And another thing, once again look at my posts on Lawrence earlier in the season, I was one of the people who were supporting him. So before you start saying to me that I wont give the bloke a chance, then get your bl**dy facts right. The reason I dont like the bloke at the moment is because in my humble opinion he has not been giving 100%, just like many Walsall fans feel.

By ucow (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 07:52 pm: Edit

how can Jman blame zigor for forests first goal is beyopnd me the only person to blame for the first goal is bazley as he went awol and roper had to try and get over to stop the cross! some people need to take a lesson on watching football. zigor had a good game yesterday and put in some good crosses and made some good defensive moves and tackles! when will people get off his back and start blameing other players for mistakes that he has no control over?

By David Potter (67.64.186.77) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 08:01 pm: Edit

Sheff. I agree with your comments about Lawrence.

He didn't have a bad game yesterday, but overall, he's been dire!

The fans didn't start to get on his back until the Norwich game, deservedly so IMO. He'd had our support up to that point, mine at least!

I don't agee with Stu when he says that JL hasn't been given the chance..he has, time and again. So has Birch and Mathias and Aranalde, players who have proved, beyond doubt, that they are not good enough!

By Stu (195.92.67.69) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 08:36 pm: Edit

Sheff, you were supporting Lawrence earlier in the season, but you also decided to go face to face with him and give him a piece of your mind not so long ago. Is that really beneficial to the player or the club?

The fact that we were leading 3-1 at half time probably worked against us in anything. It gave Kinnear something to wind them up with at half time.

Not once have I said that the new manager syndrome was the reason for blowing a 2 goal lead, but it played a part and that can't be ignored. Just as our defending too deep played a part and can't be ignored.

But as said, we weren't defending deep straight from kick off. We started defending deep when they hit the 2nd and our lot panicked.

That is what Lee has to sort out. He has to find a way to motivate them more or instill a sense of confidence, because at the moment we're watching a bunch of players that don't even seem to vaguely represent the same side that looked so impressive before Xmas.

I think that is 1/2 down to Lee and 1/2 down to the players.

David, I never said that JL hasn't been given a chance. He has been given plenty, but if he can turn things around from this point on then fair play to him. On his current form, I'd be looking to pack him off at the end of the season if we can find someone to take his contract over, but if he can turn things around he can be useful.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 08:53 pm: Edit

OK. Fair enough Stu. I agree that Lee needs to sort the confidence thing out.
I remember the conversation we had at the match, I think against Wigan. When we were on a good run and never looked like losing the lead. Where as in previous matches the players panicked when they went 1-0 up.
All about confidence.

By popperpancake (81.77.52.140) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 08:57 pm: Edit

Simply Lee has to be saying the wrong things at half time. I'm not saying he hasn't got the passion and i'm not saying he should be sacked. I'm saying he is unable to get his players to do what he wants in the second half. Too many times our second half performance is poor. I don't accept the "our midfield players are too old" line either. They're either fit enough to play division 1 football or not. It's ridiculous to say he's over 30 he can only play 1 half. That's ludicrous really. Samways and Osborn, both good players and both experienced enough to play further up the pitch when needed. Birch was getting stick second half at Forest, but he was having to deal with balls pumped up to him from 50yds away (with no WFC player within 20 yds of him), a diffcult skill for the best of centre forwards (which he aint). Lee was gutted when the 3rd goal went in, i watched him put his head in his hands on top of the dugout, but he has got to find a way to FORCE the players not to sit so deep. That's part of his job. He can only blame the players so many times. Carbon was excellent bytheway. I'm still pretty confident we won't go down to be honest.

By PGtips (195.188.152.16) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 09:30 pm: Edit

CL went to watch Bolton at Leicester last week with a view to adopting thier formation of 4-3-3 when in possession but 4-5-1 when defending. He has admitted after the forest game that the energy levels required for the forwards to do this are demanding. Coupled with the age of our midfield I think Stu is probably correct in his assesment of our 2nd half problems.

Lets be honest Birch and Jorge look knackered after 30 mins of a home game playing a conventional 4-4-2. Nobody anywhere in the side has any pace. Many of our players have a history of either serious injury (Osborn, Emblem, Ritchie) or persistant niggly injury (Pedro, Carbon). The players are simply not fit enough to compete for 90 minutes.

By reading saddler (195.112.44.203) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 09:37 pm: Edit

Walsall manager Colin Lee was disappointed with his side's second half display.

He said: ""We played very well in the first half but we always knew we would come under pressure after the break.

"We just seemed to run out of steam which is very disappointing.

"There have been a few arguments among the players in the dressing room afterwards which I haven't seen for a while. At least, it shows that they care."

could b good could b bad heh they may try and prove each other worng now (the players i mean)

next four games i think we Need at least 7 points.... watford home has to b a win (sneaky feeling about a draw though) wigan away a point would be good sunderland at home should be a win also ... not the easiest of sides but we need these points and then west ham well ....

By Chris Owen (62.31.217.27) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 10:11 pm: Edit

I think that two weeks ago we would have lost this match, so we are making progress back. Apart from the return of Wacker and Samways, and some public resolution of the Merson issue which must have been bubbling away for months within the club, the arrival of Gary Wales has been a real plus. We had a lot against us still yesterday - players out, injuries during the match, bad refereeing decisions at bad times in the match, new manager syndrome, and a team who could exploit our lack of pace in midfield. Had we fought back to 3-3 the mood here would be utterly different. But I think we were a little lucky to be 3-1 up at half time - maybe a goal lead would have been a fairer reflection of the play - so lets take the positives from this. Lee is hugely committed, and has had a lot on his plate the last couple of months over and above the football, so perhaps its no surprise he's had less time to work on tactics than he might otherwise. We won't go down, the first win of this year is very close, and we'll probably look on the first six weeks of '04 as the blip during the season.

Fensaddler

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 11:37 pm: Edit

Am i hearing right when Colin Lee has sunk to such levels that he is now using his players fitness levels as an exscuse for there faliure.

Rather an own goal there Mr Lee been as you are the person responsible for the physical condition of your own players. Rather explains the reason why Ian Roper is fastly becoming Rick Waller.

And as you are so keen to keep Judas Sammways who incidently has proved that he doesn't care a sh*t for Walsall football club, can you ensure that he can at least walk in the second half in games.

By David Potter (67.64.186.77) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 11:47 pm: Edit

Stu, I don't know why Colin didn't ship him off to Wigan when he had the chance, I'd have willingly packed his bags for him!

Personally, I can't see him turning things around here, he doesn't have the fans. I didn't boo him when he came on yesterday, but many did!

By PGtips (195.188.152.16) on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 11:51 pm: Edit

CL has adopted a policy of quality not quantity. I don't think any of us could argue that this potentially risky policy is not worth pursuing given the struggle we experienced with the quantity not quality policy of the previous regime.

To buy quality on a tight budget he has to look in the bargain buckets. Inevitably there will be some percieved problem which brings the players into our price range (i.e. they live in spain and/or are old, have addictive personality disorders, history of injuries).

I suspect CL knows they are not as fit as some ofthe sides they come up against but is he really going to come out and say so? Perhaps he could for the likes of Birch - and he has been openly critical of him live on air. But is he really going to publicly knock Vinny Samways for being a yard slower than players 10-15 years younger or Neil Emblem for being slower than forwards who have never had an injury in their life?

C&D perhaps you are advocating a return to a strategy of filling a squad with 25-30 pacey headless chickens such as Ofodile and Herivelto.

By reading saddler (195.112.44.203) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 12:58 am: Edit

hows gary wales performing by the way i really need to get myself upto bescot soon... work makes it almost impossible plus college to that but i work with a norwich and watford fan so

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 09:32 am: Edit

He made two, scored a cracker. Looks lively, pacy and makes great runs off the ball. Not fully match fit yet. Could be excellent aquisition.

By Richard Hall (146.227.1.9) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 10:42 am: Edit

... especially if he can play right-back for that critical last hour of every game when we need to defend the 18-yard box.

A few Qs for Colin:

"We played very well in the first half but we always knew we would come under pressure after the break."

So you reinforced a belief that we were likely to spend the second-half defending, did you Colin? Didn't back us to play to our strengths? Although we do get a lot of practice defending that magical 18-yard box. Well, given that their midfield/defence struggled to cope with 4-3-3, it might have been a tad more positive to defend the half-way line, rather than the 18-yard box. Again.

"We just seemed to run out of steam which is very disappointing."

Well, as I understand the game, you do have options from the bench. But, we wouldn't want to do anything hasty now would we?

"There have been a few arguments among the players in the dressing room afterwards which I haven't seen for a while. At least, it shows that they care."

What kind of anodyne pap is this? It doesn't generally bode well, when team mates are screaming at each other - work-related stress tends to inhibit performance. A lot of that is about trust.

If we are 3-1 down against Watford on Saturday, do you think, given our play under CL and his tactical nous, that we will pull it back to 3-3?

By Leamore Saddler (194.202.218.1) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 11:06 am: Edit

On WM on Saturday tea-time, the phone-in callers were almost unanimous in believing that CL tells the team to defend once in the lead. Mick Kearns strongly denied this. Much has been made of the need for a strong motivator as a no.2 to CL and I am sure Mogadon Man's team talks are hardly the most inspiring and uplifting (if his radio and TV interviews are anything to go by) but I am inclined to believe Mick Kearns.

The simple fact of the matter is that the team is incapable of playing a high energy game for more than 45 minutes. Aranalde, Bazeley, Corica, Emblen, Lawrence, Matias, Merson, Osborn, Samways and Walker - 10 first team squad members - have one thing in common. They are all aged 30 or older. With Carbon, Leitao, Ritchie and Wrack in their late twenties it only leaves Birch, Kerr, Oakes and Roper with "time on their side" plus the, as yet, unrealised potential of Fryatt, Taylor and possibly Wright.

We must be the oldest team in Division One, if not the whole league. I don't know about recalling Dave Merrington; Captain Mainwaring would be more appropriate for our squad!

Just look at the impact of a keen, hungry, YOUNG player like Gary O'Neill or Chris Baird. Look at the impact of Taylor at Stoke or even Wright when he came on at Forest, last Saturday. We desperately need an injection of YOUNG blood in the side. This is a problem that CL MUST address as a matter of urgency before even more fans turn against him and the team. We are all getting fed up of these second-half collapses by an ageing, tiring team.

By Geordiesaddler (193.195.190.230) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 11:11 am: Edit

To me its quite simple. Osborn and Samways in the middle, Taylor on the left, Wright on the right. That way you have a balance of youth and experience, players in their correct positions etc. When Wrack's fit I'd put him on the right with Wright in for Bazeley. Wales and Jorge are a good combination. I really don't see why we have to p!ssfart around with Birch on the wing, or different systems to accomodate players. Birch is a centre forward who isn't scoring, therefore he should be dropped. Taylor is a left sided midfielder who is playing excellently in the reserves and played well the other week, therefore he should play.

By LarryHaggler (81.134.96.78) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Its not very difficult is it Colin.
Why can't you see it ?
Birch on the wing has been a masterstroke ?
Come on Colin he and Zigor have had there chances, make a positive decision and get rid.

By bill (62.255.60.182) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 12:35 pm: Edit

oakes has gone to notts county

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 01:25 pm: Edit

I really must not come on here on a Saturday evening having had a few too many to drink. I do sometimes regret my outbursts after more than a several sherberts.

However, although I regret the language I used above, I do not withdraw the sentiments. The aforementioned people at the back who I directed my outburst at (and also nearly in the gound) were also the same people (kids and a few p8ssed up 'adults') who Geordie had a go at for dragging this club's name through the dirt for other reasons, so it was actually a double-edged sword.

I do, also, totally disagree with the anti-Lee briagde.

We mostly agree that the team performs very well in the first half of most games. However, the detractors always fail to acknowledge that the positives of the first half have to be down to CL's tactics and motivation - they always focus on the failings of the second half and how it must be his fault.

How can he be a good manager before kick off and suddenly a bad one at half time?

Hence, I think a combination of the reasons behind our second half failings presented by Leamore, Geordie, Geoff, Stu and Neil would not be an innaccurate assessment.

Incidentally, the 'Zigor was superb' comment from me was a little tongue in cheek! He did play OK for me but he wasn't superb.

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 01:59 pm: Edit

It's the way of the world, Delves. Football fans ain't happy unless they're moaning. If we were 3 points clear at the top, spome people would slag Lee off for not being 10 points clear. A lot of Albion fans want Megson out, cause they're only 2nd. I want him out cos he's a twerp.

By Dave Roe (217.37.14.235) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 02:49 pm: Edit

What's the point of having positives at half time, Delves, if it's all been thrown away 45 minutes later ?

I can't get excited about leading at half time when some clueless buffoon, bereft of ideas has thrown it away (again).


By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 03:10 pm: Edit

What I am saying dave is that this suggests to me that Lee is not the buffoon - it is the players, who are throwing it away, that are the buffoons - either that or the 'running out of steam' theory applies due to the squad age.

By Clueless Baboon (81.133.140.164) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 04:45 pm: Edit

You'll easily make a monkey out of me

By Glueless Baboon (81.133.140.164) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 04:46 pm: Edit

You won't easily make one out of me, though.

By steelmass fan (194.81.215.15) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 07:39 pm: Edit

I really loved the way kissed forests arse in the guardian today totally bisaed no mention of us

By Cal's a saddler (81.135.97.99) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 08:06 pm: Edit

It was the same in the Express! All about Joe Kinnear and how he was going to make things right. No mention of the game at all!

By Chris Owen (213.48.84.233) on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 09:11 pm: Edit

There's an e-mail address at the bottom of the Guardian article. Complain, like I just have.

Fensaddler

By Chris Owen (62.31.216.51) on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 12:09 am: Edit

As for complaints, apparently Kinnear is complaining our players kept going down whenever they were touched during the second half. I saw some of those tackles, particularly one on Gary Wales, and they were far from touches. I'm beginning to really dislike Kinnear.

Fensaddler

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 09:15 am: Edit

Always did - saw the way Wimbledon used to play - and he was one of C&D's suggestions as a Colin Lee replacement! Whinging Cockney, nuff said!

(I'll never forget the night they came to Fellows Park on their 'meteoric rise' through the third division, by the way. Raining, blowing a gale down the pitch and two telegraph poles up front. Spanked 'em 4 - 0. Bliss)

By Geordiesaddler (193.195.190.230) on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 10:18 am: Edit

Neil I remember that game because the weather was so bad they didn't open the turnstiles until about 15 minutes before kick off. By then many fans believed the game was off and had opted to go back home. In the end the crowd was little over 2,000. We had Tony Godden in goal stood there like a drowned rat all afternoon without hardly a touch of the ball, and I think O'kelly scored in the first minute? Both home games against Wimbledon in the 80's we played them off the park but somehow only managed 5-0 across both games.

By Beni (81.128.29.132) on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Kinnear better wait till he plays Sheff United or Stoke. Talk about cheats or thugs on a field.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 07:35 pm: Edit

I wouldnt call Sheffield United cheats or thugs for a start. You get in the play off final, 2 semi finals last year. So far this year in play offs and 1/4 final by being thugs and cheats. I dont think so.
Sometimes I wish we had Neil Warnock at Walsall. I dont think we would defend deep again if the players wanted to live!

By Magic Man Fan (213.120.56.33) on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 08:32 pm: Edit

Well said Geordie saddler!

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