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Sheff Utd (a) - League - 9th December 2003

Reports and reaction from the 2003-04 season as Walsall finished 22nd (R) in Division 1
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Sheff Utd (a) - League - 9th December 2003

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:25 pm

By hullsaddler (212.50.176.70) on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 04:15 pm: Edit

Am looking forward to the game but really hope we do take a positive attitude tonight. Watching extended highlights of Sheff U on Yorkshire goals they did look threatening going forward & would have won if the goalie hadnt had such a nightmare first half.Unfortunately i expect Fettis will play for them,always a good shot stopper for Hull City.

By steelmass (194.81.215.15) on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 07:31 pm: Edit

wanted to go but will head to milton on radio dingles anyway, plus follow it from the net

By Stu (195.92.67.78) on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 10:10 pm: Edit

Oh well, we can't blame Colin Lee for goalkeeping errors (the first goal), we can't blame tactics/formations for missing very good chances (Kearns' opinion is that Wrack should have scored the pair)...

Commentary reckoned we were playing quite well up until the goal...

Didn't expect to get anything against them anyway, but to lose the initiative with mistakes and miss good chances at vital times is hard to take. And something that neither Lee nor tactics & formations can really be blamed for.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 10:32 pm: Edit

Doesnt get away from the fact that our away form is a total DISGRACE. And has been for season after season at this level.
Something needs to be sorted as 1 win away from home in 11 matches is nothing less than PATHETIC.

By Stu (195.92.67.78) on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Agreed, but at least the performance was better. Or so WM reckoned.

Makes me wonder why I'm going to MK on Saturday, if we lose there I'll cringe with embarrasment. If we're ever going to win, it'll be there...

Never know, he may even go with two forwards. Then again...

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.33.12) on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 11:02 pm: Edit

Yes but the performance could surely not have been any worse than Bradford on Saturday or Rotherham the week before.
Something needs to be done, because I am getting very p*ssed off with our away performances or lack of.

By Stu (195.92.67.75) on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 11:44 pm: Edit

Bradford was like watching Brazil compared to the Rotherham match, honestly.

I don't think I've ever seen two such poor 1st Division sides in the last 3.5 seasons. Although I also said that after the Watford game this season.

But the Rotherham match really was atrocious, you'd have been excused for thinking it was Division 3 football. Too bad for words.

By veryworriedawayfan (62.31.216.131) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 12:51 am: Edit

To be honest our performances away from home isnt the only thing to worry about the performances against Bradford (H&A), Rotherham (away), Sheff Utd (away). Our last few performances have been laughable. You cant question Lee's tactics, mmmmm playin an hopeless overrated captain upfront might be a reason we aint scoring.
6 goals out of 10 away games, PATHETIC!
Its a good job our home forms decent.
If we dont come from MK on saturday with at least a draw we are in dire straights away from home.
Sheffsaddler I agree something needs to be done cause our away performances are cack.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 01:04 am: Edit

Not looking too good is it folks.
Just a few points from the bottom 3 and i think i can safely assume that we are in the realms of a relagation dogfight.
I think in the current state of a poor division and the fact that Lee has now assembled a side he can call his own suggests this is just totally unacceptable.
It's not the fact that we lost to Sheffield Utd, one of the better teams in the league that worries me it's the expectancy from fans that we would indeed lose.
Im telling you now that there is something not right with these players at the moment,whether it be confidence, leadership or passion. I have no doubt that there is enough quality there to do a lot better than they are and i for one certainly don't take this fickle line that just because we are playing at a higher level than the club is used to we should not lose sight that this team is seriously under aceiving.
The first game of the season against WBA proves this.
I don't think i need to tell you all by now who i think is to blame for this but it all points to the fact that he is.
Im convinced there is unrest at the club at present whether it be Bonsor/Lee, Lee/Players or both im not sure but what i do know is that the club needs fresh injection from somewhere and fast.
I can certainly smell a rat regarding this assissant manager business. I cannot for one moment beleive that Bonsor would provide Lee with funds to create his own team and then turn round and say "sorry col got no more cash to help you get a man to make em tick". It don't make sense to me. Especially when they have just employed an experienced physio in Jim Walker to tell the players when to eat their fruit and veg.
The club has the duty to publically tell the fans what is really going on with this assisstant situation instead of sweeping it under the carpet.
Perhaps Bonsor is going through the back him sack him dilemma.
If you are Jeff do the club a favour and choose the latter.

By PGtips (195.188.152.14) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 01:38 am: Edit

Thanks for sharing your latest insane rambling with us C&D. Meanwhile back in the real world....

I did make it to Bramall lane tonight and have to say it was one of the more enjoyable away performances in recent months. Upto the first goal (which was a soft mistake from Jimmy) we were a match for Sheff Utd. We did not take two excellent chances but it has to be said Sheff Utd also had 2-3 very good chances to score. Second goal was a killer at the start of the half especially as Wrack had just missed our best chance of the night moments earlier. Really he should have scored - unmarked glancing header at the far post with keeper beaten and he put it wide.

Overall though it was more positive and for some periods we kept possession and passed it around well. There was more purpose to our play especially from Bazely who put in a zigorish performance by bombing forward well but defending poorly. Osburn and samways were influential again. There really did look to be a difference in approach to this match than Rotherham and Bradford.

I feel a bit like I did after Norwich. Tonight we met a superb side and you have to say well played to them. Michael Tongue in particular was outstanding and gave the best individual performance I can recall seeing from anyone against us in recent years. We gave a good account of ourselves and may have got something out of this game IF we had not gifted a goal at a crucial time and taken at least one of three guilt edge chances. It is a measure of how we have improved that we created such good chances at Bramall Lane just a fortnight after failing to get a single corner or shot on goal at Millmoor.

Very sad effort from the "Loyal Saddler" gang who immediatly gave up encouraging the team after we went behind and resorted to the usual dingle chants. Cheering Corica off after another sound game was poor. Singing 'no more dingles' and 'are you watching Colin Lee?' - whats that all about when we were playing OK. Most absurd on three occaisons singing "Where's the effort gone?" - on each occaision this came straight after a ball into the Sheff Utd box had caused problems. Unfortunatly twice Birch fouled (in the refs opinion!) and on the third Wrack should have shot with his left but tried to tee up on his right and lost possession. What sort of effort do you want?

Fortunalty 50-60 spotty pillocks probably can not be heard over 18,000 supporters at pitch level so their bile was most likely not heard by the players. Please CL and the lads repeat this performance at Wimbledon and we will get the points. At the end of the day these matches (away to top 2/3 sides at DIV 1 level) are luxury matches for a club like ours. We can not seriously expect to win but if we do its a bonus. Wimbledon is another matter though. Saturdays match is our bread and butter.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.167) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 03:09 am: Edit

If I can pick out a C&D quote - "It's not the fact that we lost to Sheffield Utd, one of the better teams in the league that worries me it's the expectancy from fans that we would indeed lose."

Does this C&D guy have any idea about the effect of money on the beautiful game?

Tell me Dummie, what is the average gate at Bramall Lane - have you any idea?

Now tell me, what is the average gate at Bescot?

Now work out the difference, and multiply by 23 league games, maybe 4 cup games, let's be conservative and say £16 a head.

Answer - let's call it conservatively £8million, or to put it another way, light years apart.

So given the massive difference in income, spending power, and consequent ability to attract the best players in this division, tell me just why we should EXPECT to go to Bramall Lane and win.

The simple fact is we shouldn't expect to win, it's unfortunately a fact of life. We can HOPE to win, and now and again we'll get a point, maybe three, but on average, and on balance, we'll get none.

I see no disgrace in that, provided we put on a good show with 100% effort. Sounded to me like we did that, but we were let down by a rare Wakker error, the kind of thing you can never plan for, and some poor finishing.

This ain't rocket science Dummie, this is being realistic. No manager of Walsall FC, whether CL or someone else, can expect to assemble a side to match the best in this division. It is probably a credit to us that we played so well and took the game to SheffU,in particular for significant periods of the first half.

It's all about resources, and we can't possibly match the big clubs when we are in the bottom three when you come to compare Division One gates.

The realistic target is Division One survival, a hopeful target is mid-table, an unattainable target is the play-offs.

By Jeremy Busby (210.86.29.215) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 04:12 am: Edit

I find it very strange that C and D was nowhere to be seen after the weekend result but as soon as a loss (against the top side, away) he is back on again with his theories. Funny that.

By BLACK FLAT (194.203.67.97) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 09:24 am: Edit

what worries me is the total lack of basic passing
skills which is constantly putting us under pressure. if it wasnt for wacker agreed it was a soft goal we could have been 5 down at half time
three things summed it up foe me,gary birch losing an aerial duel with alan wright whose about
3ft,darren bazeley using most energy arguing the
toss over a throw in.then simon osbourne wasting a
free kick with merse too fed up too even take it
i think weve reached a big turning point of the
season on saturday. final thought where did all
colin lees were going up there to give it a go
bravo must have got lost in the fog.
not a happy saddler today

By Clown Lee (213.122.69.184) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 10:19 am: Edit

Sorry I didn't deliver on saturday even with leaving our best player out. Stupid Wrack and stupid Birch messed up by not following instructions and the only way Bradford could have scored was if I'd kicked the b@st@rd ball in myself, which I was tempted to do. Much better last night, errors and missed chances, just what I ask for.
I am working on the master plan for saturday, one up front again, and a few things up my sleeve to ensure another defeat.
I am making a personal appearance at Makro later. Why don't you suckers come and tell me how great I am and how I'm the best manager Walsall have ever had.

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 10:42 am: Edit

Yawn!!!!!

By Geordiesaddler (193.195.190.230) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 11:12 am: Edit

Yes it was better than Rotherham - it could hardly have been worse. But to be honest Sheff U never got out of first gear. The thing that bothers me is that watching us away has become a predictable, boring, and all together unenjoyable passtime. Its just the same week in week out, we don't look capable of scoring. I thought last night both teams were poor on the night, and how many times this season have we lost to opposition teams who have played poorly? Rotherham, Derby, Sunderland, Ipswich. Yes money has something to do with it, but its not the be all and end all. I think attitude has a lot to do with it too. There is nothing to fear in this division yet away from home we look frightened. Darren Wrack has his moments but has never been a great finisher but the fact is we are relying on players like him to score goals because away from home shows how much our forwards consistently fail to deliver when we play away. That's down to them. Does Paul Merson suddenly lose his ability when he pulls on a blue shirt? I fear for Saturday, because at the minute any team playing us at home will see us as easy pickings.

By merson10 (195.171.73.170) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 11:39 am: Edit

Like most posters on here I am concerned about our consistently poor away results. I am also a fan of a good stat, so I thought I would have a look at just how good/bad the results have been. First of all here are a couple of good news stats:
1. Our home record is better than table-topping West Brom's
2. Had we nicked a win yesterday (however unlikely that was) we would have been 5 points off the play-offs.
However looking at our away record its not good. It has improved under Colin Lee as opposed to Ray Graydon's record in Div One. Graydon took 25 points from 38 games, where as Lee has taken 36 from 42. But if you look season by season since Lee took over it has been:
2001/02 (part) - 9 points from 8 games
2002/03 - 21 points from 23 games
2003/04 (part) - 6 points from 11 games
In other words its has been getting worse rather than better despite all Colin says about trying to improve it. Overall our away record in Div One is terrible with just 13 wins and 61 points from 80 games.
More worrying though is the number of goals scored. In the Nationwide this season only Chesterfield and Boston have scored fewer away from home. And overall in Division One since we joined we have netted 77 times in 80 games. Colin please sort it out.
Saying that, if we win at Wimbledon it will be 30 points from 23 games so far - on target for a final total of 60 and mid table security. Last season 60 points would have been 13th.

By BLACK FLAT (194.203.67.97) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 12:46 pm: Edit

i really think that the club has reached a bit of
a crossroads on weather we are going to push on or
hover between lower and middle postion.
what worries me most on away games is that we drop
further and further back and the players and
manager dont seem to spot the signals.
my team for sat and remember we are playing bottom
of the division side
1 jimmy walker
2 mark wright
3 jamie vincent
4 ian roper
5 neil emblem
6 paul richie
7 vinny samways
8 paul merson
9 george lettao
10 gary birch
11 darren wrack

with this id give merse a floating role which he has always played and george with a role on the
right side so the emphasis will be attack.
might not work but somethings got to be tried out
and i think this could get merse intrested

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 01:00 pm: Edit

I have mixed feelings about this game.

On one hand I agree with PGTips, that considering the opposition (play-off finalists last year with a number of players that Premiership clubs are itching to get their hands on) we played well until the fumble from Jimmy and should have been ahead by then. Osborn was excellent, I thought, passing and tackling really well (great ball for Wrack's sitter) and Ritchie, as ever, outstanding. I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, so I will use it. If Wrack had scored his first chance, it could have been a different story etc. etc.

Effort ws certainly not a problem - they were all giving 100% in terms of the energy and effort they put in off the ball and when on the front font (apart from Merson - tired?). Patience and concentration are what was missing.

Now the negatives. I said it before the game and I'll say it now - Merson looked decidedly uninterested at times and I believe we need to drop him to the bench for away games. He seemed happier having some banter with the home fans and a lot of his passing was just plain lazy. Yes, he was up front again but that is no excuse for this attitude. I am as bemused as anyone as to why he produces his 'magic' at the small venue that is Bescot but not at the bigger stages such as Brammall Lane.

I have to disgree about Bazeley - I thought he was awful (apart from one incisive run) and would much prefer to see Mark Wright there. The full-backs are making too many errors through lack of concentration and this is putting pressure on the centre halves, who in all fairness to them, dealt with it comfortably for the most parts.

Corica produced another frustrating display of being in the right place at the right time but his ball control and possession letting him down again. I think now is the time for Oakes to get his chance. Prima donna or not - maybe we need an 'attitude' to give us some zip - he is an excellent passer of the ball and is skillful enough to keep possession.

The same can also be said for Birch who's first touch was poor, however, I would stick with him as he is the only striker scoring and does have a bit about him that will upset lesser defences (the Blades have only conceded 7 goals at home all season).

No complaints about other individuals and if we produce that performance at Wimbledon should, with some luck, come away with three points. It's foolish to expect us to win any game in this league - look what Wimbledon did at Albion - but I am confident of a win in MK.

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Does anyone know if there were Walsall fans in the lower tier as the Steward said they were expecting 600 Walsall fans but there only about 200 in the upper tier where I was sat?

I ask this as I am not sure that all of the 'youth' and LOYAL saddler brigade were there.

There was a small bunch of lads in the upper tier who, to be fair, did themselves proud in leading the singing and supporting the lads......until we went a goal down. After a lull, they then turned on individual players (something I only do on here through constructive criticism) and Colin Lee (singing 'are you watching Colin Lee' not long after they were singing 'Colin lee's barmy army' etc. - fickle) and questioned the players' effort (which, as I stated above, was not an issue).

The anti-ex-dingle players thing started again and 'that song' was aired a couple of times. Don't know if you were there LS, but is this LOYAL? Is this supporting your team through thick and thin? I think not.

Incidentally, before you start asking questions again LS, as ever I sang my (freezing cold) bollox off last night, but did not resort to slagging off the team and CL.

By dingle_h8er (213.48.83.56) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 01:26 pm: Edit

I agree Black Flat, i dont think THIS club knows where we want to be. We get so close of becomin a top 10 side and draw a few and lose a few and we end up scrapping for points for a few games.
It also pisses me off when fans go with the idea "get anything from this game and its a bonus", FOR fudge SAKE we are a division 1 side that in a close division every game should be winnable. Ive heard fans with that frame of mind when weve gone to places like Coventry, Rotherham and Crewe. IF we want to push on in this league we have got to be more optimistic and for fudge sake, STOP IT WITH ALL THESE ANTI-DINGLE CHANTS!
its geting very boring and very annoying, Birch was having a dig at the fans the weekend with his celebration, so was lee in his interview.
GET BEHIND THE TEAM!
P.S You are all twerp if you booed Corica off last night he played better than alot of them.
P.P.S Drop Merson.

By StuW (212.125.68.234) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 02:16 pm: Edit

Merson is not and has never been a striker. He needs to play in the hole in front of midfield with Jorge and Birch in front of him. If we played this formation, with how hard Birchy and Jorge work we would have a much more threatening attack as Merson would have two options for his fantastic passes.
The only trouble then would be defensively, we could play Samways, Osborn and Wrack in midfield but Osborn and Wrack can't defend that well so our defemce would need to be strong and reliable. With Bazeley and Vincent as Wingbacks we would have one who doesn't have much pace and skill for crosses (Vincent) and one who can't defend that well. Zigor is also a poor defender but may pose more of an attacking threat. Roper and Ritchie are sound in central defence but Ritchie always looks like he's about to punch someone or get sent off.
Anyway we're losing all of our away games, so we might as well put up a fight. I would play the following:

Walker
Bazeley Roper Ritchie Zigor

Osborn Samways Wrack

Merson

Birch Leitao

(I spaced it out properly - Bazeley and Zigor as wingbacks, 3 in defense and Merse behind the strikers - but the website squashed it all up so it looks naff).

Personally I think Merson has been crap, but I'd play him in a position he CAN play in and if he does crap there then drop him.
Chances are we'd get run ragged in defence, but it would make for more exciting games and attack is the best form of defence. What do you think?

By Dave Roe (217.37.14.235) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 02:34 pm: Edit

Spot on StuW. I know other posters will come on and point out flaws, but I'm getting to a point where I can't see what we can lose by trying this.

Perhaps Merson is getting peed off because he is constantly being played in a position that doesn't suit him and he doesn't like. Let him have a free role behind Birch & Jorge and see what he can do.

By Stu (13.16.137.11) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 02:36 pm: Edit

Wingbacks? I presume you mean full backs. You can't play wingbacks with two centre halves, you'll get mullered left, right and centre by everyone from West Ham to the Girls Blind School in Birmingham.

The reason we tried to play 3-5-2 was it accomodated Merson & Corica. The players can't adapt to it, which is •••• poor in my view as they're professional footballers.

Thus, we may as well go 4-3-1-2 as above (but with fullbacks) or drop Merson.

By BLACK FLAT (194.203.67.97) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 03:09 pm: Edit

i would like emblem in the middle as we never win
anything in the air and often the defence comes
under constant pressure,true simon osbourne tries
but does he make much difference to the side i have my doubts when he and bazeley(who i thought
was crap) make the right side so weak.

wimbledon may have won at albion but my baggiemate

said they were crap,so for a change lets hope we
have a go right from the start and not let there
youngsters get any confidence

By StuW (212.125.68.234) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 03:14 pm: Edit

Yeah Fullbacks - 4-3-1-2 - that's what I meant!

Cheers for pointing that out.

The players should be able to adapt to it with good coaching, plenty of drilling and everybody knowing their role. We just need to make sure we're not changing the system all of the time, as happened earlier in the season.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 03:31 pm: Edit

Only problem I have with 4-3-1-2 is that it leaves you with problems on the flanks and I am not too confident our full backs are good enough to deal with this. Espcially if you play Zigor and Bazeley as mentioned above. Sorry but they would get murdered if you tried them in a 4-3-1-2 formation.
Its either 3-5-2 with Merson or 4-4-2 without him, simple as that.

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 04:03 pm: Edit

I agree with sheff, and away from home I would go with 4-4-2 and drop Merse to the bench. That way he can come on second half and worry the opposition defence if required. This would also leave him fresher for home games where he can tear the opposition to threads.

By Stu (13.16.137.11) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 04:19 pm: Edit

Merson wouldn't want to play on the bench, he has said he wants to play football.

If he was on the bench, he'd want to go elsewhere for football.

Thus, do you get rid of keep him?

Personally, keep him as I then your back to putting heaps of pressure on Corica to create everything and he showed last year that was too much pressure. Its no surprise that Corica is having a much better season no that there are other players around him who can create things.

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 04:40 pm: Edit

Oakes will create if we drop Merse - see another thread. How can you warrant not dropping him just to keep him happy, when he isn't producing away (I did only say drop him to the bench for away games). that is called pandering to a big name.

Don't get me wrong, I believe he is a massive asset but surely we must try other things to improve our goal return away.

By Purple Pete (81.133.149.20) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 08:51 pm: Edit

I agree with the 4-3-1-2 idea in theory but why not play a team that can move to that formation when attacking if you know what I mean! I almost agree with other posters but personally feel that I would have started at Sheffield with the following:

Bazeley, Roper, Richie, Vincent

Wrack Merson Samways Arenalde

Birch Leiteo

Play Wrack & Zigor out wide as an outlet with Samways playing more defensive and Merson in a free role when moving forward (bit of an odd shaped diamond really) Vinny & Paul are experienced enough to keep a reasonable formation and the 2 wingers can move infield slightly if we want to tighten up the middle of the pitch.

The 2 wingers would have to hold their positions but if the opposition allowed them to move into goalscoring positions we could swop them over to let them take shots with their favoured foot.

I dont think I would try it at Wimbledon as its a bit of a gamble but I would try it at an away match that we looked odds on to lose.

By hull saddler (80.48.211.33) on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 07:25 pm: Edit

Would agree with Merson playing behind Jorge & Birch,but if he doesnt produce the goods we cant keep him in the side ,just because of the risk of upsetting him.
If only he can get into the sort of positions to produce that cross for Wrack a bit more( Or how about anyone producing that sort of cross?).I would also have Matty Fryatt on the bench .

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 03:35 pm: Edit

I don't have any obejections to trying that, Purple, apart from the lack of a goalkeeper!

Seriosuly, though, I would prefer Wright at right-back but otherwise I go with your suggestion.

By BLACK FLAT (194.203.67.97) on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 05:03 pm: Edit

i agree delves i think mark wright worth a go at
full back , saw replay of first goal on sky and
thought wacker put off by gary birch almost running in to him and wrackeys miss just as bad as i thought on the night

By Purple Pete (81.134.3.254) on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 07:30 pm: Edit

Delves if my theory is right we wont need a goalkeeper.

Alternative answer is - oops I forgot I just took it for granted that Walker was in goal.

Good job I dont fill in the team sheet.

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