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Rotherham (a) - League - 29th November 2003

Reports and reaction from the 2003-04 season as Walsall finished 22nd (R) in Division 1
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Rotherham (a) - League - 29th November 2003

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:22 pm

By Delves Saddler (82.37.162.58) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 08:31 pm: Edit

Well, there was one and only one reason for that result - the change in formation - and the blame (for once in my opinion) must be laid at the manager's door.

Why did he have to change from the very effective 4-4-2 that we have used for a number of games to a 3-5-2 formation that produced our worst performance for a long time. The reasons:

A. To accomodate the loss of Baird back to Southampton? - what is wrong with Wright/Bazeley. It was CL who said they will have to show he doesn't have to go and get another loan signing - how are they supposed to do that if they aren't in the team.

B. To adapt to the opposition? I'm a firm believer that if a formation/system/tactics work than stick to them, irrespective of the opposition. Clearly 4-4-2 is the formation that our players enjoy the most so why mess with it and them. The sudden change resulted in players not knowing where their team mates were, passes going astray, a confused defence and an anonymous frontline.

When managers tinker with his team like this it only leads to an unsettled side who will take a few games to readjust, so we must go back to 4-4-2 immediately.

I lay no blame at the players' doors. They tried their hardest (whichever tit behind me constantly slagged the players off for lack of effort should be ashamed of himself). I will not assess them individually as it is impossible to when they have had to play under those circumstances.

One other gripe I have - I am absolutey sick to death of 'fans' concentrating on slagging off ex-Walsall players to the detriment of our current team. I say to the detriment of our current team because this player baiting only serves to fire them up (everyone saw Butler's reaction when he scored) and doesn't give 100% support to those in the Walsall shirt - plus, Jimmy didn't look too pleased when these 'fans' constantly insulted his mate, Butler. (Incidentally, I have never and will never slag off Byfield - the man who scored the goal that made for the greatest day in our history and got us back in this division. Plus, he wasn't a Judas - he didn't want to leave).

So Colin - I am rarely one to criticise you as I think you do a great job but on this occasion you ballsed it up big-time.

By Delves Saddler (82.37.162.58) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 08:34 pm: Edit

N.B. The officiating was apalling which only added to the problem.

By Surrey Saddler (195.93.34.9) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Heard the game on the internet. From all accounts we were dire (and so were they). So its 5 points lost from the last two easy games. We must take 3 points from Bradford next week.

By Dave Gittins (195.92.168.176) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 09:20 pm: Edit

I'm trying very hard to find a positive from today's game - let's see......

good system - no
near misses - no
exciting game - no
money well spent - no
nice ground - definately no

even the cup of tea was foul!

Oh, found a positive to take from today - I had a nice meal at the Little Chef on the way home!

I found Merson to be pretty anonymous on the whole today, a couple of deft touches admittedly but sometimes you have a game where you can't afford the luxury of a skilful ball player and instead need a ball winner who is prepared to really get stuck in. I know Samways normally has that sort of role but today we needed another one like it.

Up front we showed absolutely nothing. On the occasions we got near the penalty area we seemed determined to try to walk the ball in, no-one is prepared to have a crack from distance. Is it a confidence thing? One thing is for sure, if you don't shoot you certainly won't score.

That was my first away game this season. On that showing I can't see me going to that many more.

By paul119 (195.188.152.16) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 09:33 pm: Edit

we were •••• we didn't have one shot on target all game. we wasn't motivated we not good going forward,we had no idea in front of goal.at the end of the day we r not good enough and we will go down if we keep on playing like that.

By paul119 (195.188.152.16) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 09:36 pm: Edit

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65519
+851
651+6+45+
3512
+651+9 I HAVE JUST COME BACK FROM THE GAME

By Jorge14 (195.93.34.9) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 10:44 pm: Edit

LOL, what was that?

Very, very poor. Poor tactics, poor team decisions, poor play. We didn't deserve to win, nor did Rotherham, and I had to laugh at Ronnie Moore's comments that they could have won 4 or 5. However, the most Graydon-esque performance since Lee took over I think (i.e. we went for a nil-nil, and didn't change when we went 1-0 down.)

Three major gripes, both concerning the fans:

a) Too many little kids there today. DOn't take a young kid to a pretty-pationless away game as Rotherham. Take him to Albion etc, not Rotherham

b) People getting up and leaving. I know we were sh!t today, but when we go 1 down, I don't expect to see the whole stand empty. I hate to say it, but Casual fans have no place whatsoever at away matches. Scourge of the earth. Casual fans shouldn't even go to many home matches, let alone away. The same applies to "part-timers", they should stick to the home matches, not away games. And I'm so pissed off after the last two days (I spent a near-pointless day in Lille on Friday, no sleep for near-enough 40 hours), that I don't care who I'm offending...

c) The twerp who stand at the back and know sweet FA about Football. I'll explain...
Today, they stood there for 90 minutes booing Butler (I booed, but it was too extensive, let it lie after 30 mins or so), Byfield (Lee bascially kicked him out) and Lee himself. Now, I'm a big fan of Lee and personally, I think he deserves a good run to do something at this club, but, bear with me.

After the first goal, fair enough, cries of "get the subs on, Lee", "This is sh!t Lee, sort it out!" are fair enough. But why sing "Slap the Dingle", "We want Colin Lee", "Are you watching Colin Lee" and, the most baseless chant I've ever heard for this club in Division One "We want Ray Graydon back", and it wasn't one person, it was the whole of the most pathetic little excuse for a "firm" I've ever seen, and if they never went to another football match, I wouldn't miss them in the slightest. In fact, I'll probably see them at school on Monday morning.

Now, I'm sorry, but Graydon did FVCK ALL for this club in Diviison One except get it relegated and have it slap bang on course for a second relegation.
Before the the anti-Lee brigade point to the recent £1 million pound loss, we would have made a £1 million pound profit if it wasn't for ITV Digital collapsing.
It is absurd to call for Lee's head to be replaced by Graydon...we might as well call for Big Fat Jan to come back, come on, at least we'd get cup revenue to go along with Div 2 or 3 TV revenue.

I applaud the eldery gentlemen who told them to shut up, only to be greeted by abuse and called a "fat b@stard".

Oh, and before a smart arse responds with a quick remark, I have missed 2 leagueaway matches this season, and no more than 4 or 5 last season. I'm also a ST holder. I think that entitles me to have a go at you excused for Saddlers. Fvck off to the Dingles, after-all, that's all you sing about!

MOM - Allaway...he's no mug this lad, not only does he not put a foot wrong all match, he gets paid to watch a match like that.

So, all in all, 2 points dropped and quite a few Walsall fans thoughrogly p!ssed off.

By steelmass (80.225.103.183) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 10:45 pm: Edit

after that I am staying in and do my uni work

At times in the game the system was really confusing the midfield was all over the place and offering no cover to the defence and nothing up frount

As well as a little crap town in yorkshire with a dump of a gound and a certain blond twerp

Had to laugh when some of the saddlers fans came flying out of the pub by sheffield station and trying to prise the door off the train quailty

By Dave Gittins (195.92.168.177) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 11:51 pm: Edit

Jorge

Very good post, but I have to disagree with you on certain points regarding 'casual' fans.

You say that casual fans shouldn't go to either home or away games and that young kids shouldn't be taken to a game like Rotherham away.

I have followed the Saddlers since 1976 through thick and thin and I would probably be classed as a casual or part time fan nowadays in that I cannot get to all the home games - silly things like mortgage and bills get in the way of that and away games are very much a rarity for the same reason. In my single days I travelled all over the country week in and week out following the Saddlers. Today I took two of my kids to Rotherham (the third one was at a party) - I was only able to do this because the tickets were on sale at a special deal, I have no doubt that most people with small kids were there for the same reason. Following your reasoning, I should not have taken the opportunity to go to a rare away match and also I should never darken the doors of Bescot again unless I can get to every home game.

One day, when you are tied down with commitments and have to be selective with your games I hope that you remember your sweeping statements and follow your own advice.

By PGtips (195.188.152.12) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 12:28 am: Edit

Nobody left at 1-0 but most (including me) did at 2-0. To be honest I felt like leaving at half time. Our away form has been awful for all of this calender year and this was a classic passionless Walsall away day. We have seen 12-15 such away performances in 2003.

It was a 4-4-2 as far as I could see with Emblen as a right back. Why harp on about Bazely and Wright having a big opportunity to prove themselves all week and then pick neither? Who was playing in front of Emblen? So many times he brought the ball out of defence looked up and saw nobody in a red shirt. Just like Bradford when Baird was isolated by Lawrence on the right. As different personel are involved with the same problem I presume this is tactical and not a player problem.

Too many players hiding. Did Dinning play? To be honest Lawrence played better at Bradford than Dinning did today. Birch did nothing from the minute he was muscled off his first ball. Wrack anonymous today. Vinny closed down quickly every time he touched the ball and no-one ever gave him an option.

Well done Rotherham who wanted it more today and played a high tempo and firm but fair game. They closed us down and never stopped moving. Butler and Byfield always found space and gave them options up front. We had Merson running sideways, Corcia trying but not physically strong enough and Birch standing still with hands on hips all afternoon.

I stood close to the kids at the back of the goal who did us proud today. They really were the 12th man with their strong vocal backing. 12th man for Rotherham that is. 90 minutes of 'Butler is a ••••••' and 'Judas' to Byfield wound the pair up to the point where they burst a gut to score. Witness the release of pent up fury from Butler when he scored. Well done lads. Did we not learn from Byfield last season and Junior a couple of months ago? To be honest they probably did not realise the score anyway as they spent so much time rubbing Balti pies into each others clothes and pawing the one female who travelled with them that they rarely watched the game.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 01:08 am: Edit

Nice one Mr Lee. Cracking tactical decision's there boss. Not one shot, not even a corner. Just a bunch of confused headless chickens with not one ounce of leadership.
I heard your pathetic after match comments saying that the players were perhaps too aware of Rotherham's strenghts instead of expressing thier own. Are you seriously saying that you don't take most of the responsibilty for that. YOU lost that game today before it even started.
In recent weeks i was beginning to see a team that were settled in a formation that suited them but you had to get your little chess board out and take us back to confusion yet again.
It's not so much about the formation you have altered but the confidence you drain by doing it.
Footballers love simplicity and continuity. It improves confidence which obviously enhances performance.
I seriously question whether you know your own players Mr Lee and ill give you an example of why i think that.
Before matches you consistently comment on the strengths of the opposition. In fact ive noticed you do it every game. Im 100% sure that this tactic is harming the moral and the confidence of your players.
Sometimes it can be a usefull tool if you want to bring a player down to earth, keep thier feet on the ground, make them aware by making the opposition seem better than they really are in order to get an over arrogant player focussed.
The problem is Mr Lee, you don't have that type of player.
If you look at the majority of the Walsall sqaud at your disposal they all require the opposite strategy, to be fed confidence.
Ive studied most of the players we have in certain match situations, winning,losing, and one thing i notice is that they are players of extremes. What i mean by this is that they thrive on confidence but don't posses the mental ability (when things aren't going well) to create it for themselves. It's all or nothing with em. They either hide or they glide.
That's where you come into play Mr Lee. Instead of daunting your players with your obsession of the oppositions strengths, concentrate on giving them the confidence and the continuity in order for the feel good factor to manifest itself.

It's a simple game Col and reqiures simple common sense phsycology. All the great men and managers past and present have proved that's the case. So stop trying to play the game on paper because you obviously can't draw.

By Exile (203.167.253.205) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 03:43 am: Edit

Had a feeling when I woke up this morning that I'd see a result like this.

This is more like the Walsall I've come to know and love over the last two or more decades. We've always been the experts where out of the blue ineptitude is concerned, and I for one am pleased to see that we've lost none of the essential attitudes to the game that make the Saddlers who they are.

Incredible that we still seem to have so little self belief that we're scared of blinking Rotherham. Bogey side they may have been in the past, but this (and the Palace result, perhaps to a lesser extent), confirms to me that the "little club" mentality is still firmly rooted at the Bescot Stadium, from the manager's office to the changing room.

Please, everyone at the club, and I'm sure the club admin pay attention to this board occasionally so they might see this, self belief is exactly what is says. It comes from within. There's nothing I can do from the other side of the planet, and nothing the supporters can do from only metres away on matchdays, to change they way you think about yourselves and the way you play the game as a result of that.

I know Walsall can play better than this, and most people here seem to agree, which is why we're so darn disappointed about now, so how about showing us on a more regular basis?

A quick Glenn Hoddle style session with a mindgames guru might help a bit. Remember the rugby world cup? Wales attributed a lot of their passion in their games against NZ and England to their belief in themselves, and that was down to some good sessions in the classroom (not the training ground) beforehand. They might have lost but they gave a better account of themselves than people thought they were capable of.

Likewise Steve Redgrave (I think) said to the England team before the final: "At the end of this game, you've got to keep it up when you're hurting, so look at your opponent and know he's hurting more, because you've got to believe you're ready and he's not".

Finally, everyone knows what happened to New Zealand, a team oozing ability but without the soul to back it up. A passionless defeat to an average side, and they showed no creativity, no movement, and above at all, at no stage did they show that they believed in themselves when their backs were against the wall.

We've got the luxury of a (small) points cushion and superior goal difference, so our backs aren't against that wall - yet.

In short, I'm with C&D on this one. I'm not knocking Colin, coz I still can't see whowe'd get to replace him, and he's the best yet at the Saddlers, BUT, get that assistant as soon as you can, JB, and make sure he's one that speaks the player's language. That will take us to the next level.

Cheers all,
Exile

By reading saddler (81.6.253.65) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 03:47 am: Edit

interesting cox alot of babble got bored sorry. Wasn't there, heard we were dire, dont mind. Why? Because we are alot better than ever before . good luck saddlers. No technicality do your best lads

By Blame Lee not the fans (213.122.148.119) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 12:43 pm: Edit

Jorge what right have you got to tell people they can't take their kids to games? You sound pretty arrogant to me. And all this talk about "casual" fans, what are you on about? People can go to as few or as many games as they want. Your permission is not needed, and if they want to leave early they can.

By Jorge14 (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Sorry, was pretty pissed off and tired last night. But it is the fans response yesterday afternoon which stops my pet hate, casual fans, turning into full-time, or even "part-time" supporters.
I'm not an advocator of returning to crowds of 3000, but then again, I'd rather see 5000 passionate and proud Saddlers fans than a capacity of 10000, with half of the attendees not really fussed about the outcome.
Look at the atmosphere yesterday, if it wasn't for my other pet hate, out little firm, there'd be no noise in the entire stadium. There is no passion from our fans, but then again, I suppose I'm being hypocritical, because I don't want these braindeads at the match.

Dave, I take your point entirely, hopefully, in 2 or 3 years, I'll be on my way to university, so obviously, thats the season ticket gone for at least 4 years. SO, who knows, maybe I'll be a "part-timer"!

Anyway, I'm still tired, and I'm still pissed off, but at least I've had a rant!


By worriedsaddler (62.31.216.190) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 02:32 pm: Edit

Yesterday was my first saturday game I have missed for 3 years because of a family party, i was even contemplating whether to catch a train from rotherham to northampton then go to the party im glad i didnt. Why did Lee babble on about baze and wrighty if his intention was not to play them anyway?. Lee's excuse today was we have missed O'Neil and Baird, for fudge sake thats why we need a decent squad because after baird we aint got a decent right back and nobody apart from wracky in the middle of the park will battle for the pride of Walsall!
3 weeks ago it looked so rosey, 6 points from the play-offs and 7 from the drop with Bradford x2,palace,Rotherham and Wimbledon all approaching now with two out of 5 "easy" games left we are 10 from the pla-offs and 4 FROM THE DROP!
Sort it out colin and fast!


By ucow (195.93.33.12) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 02:35 pm: Edit

@ the end of the day we got out of the game what we put into it NOTHING! it was a bad day for the players and managment! but i think it shows CL's lack of confidence in both bazley and wright if he isnt going to play either of them from the start of the game!

also it was nice to see the idiots back chanting the anti-sectarian songs again oh what a ticket deal does for the fans! how some of them got into the ground beggars to be beleived as some of them were having trouble standing up and talking!!!! and the idiots who honestly think graydon would be doing a better job should realy be looking at themselfs and questioning why they come to watch walsall play!

By Manchester Saddler (213.106.179.33) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Jorge - it doesn't matter - you still get some full time supporters slagging off the players and manager even though they have no idea what's going on. Even when I used to go to all home games many years ago when I still lived in Walsall, when crowds were around 3000, there were *still* so called die hard fans who slagged off the manager, slagged off the players and, worse, chanted racist remarks at black Walsall players and cared not a jot about the outcome. to them it was something to whine about on a Saturday afternoon. Nothing has changed. These fans claim to be die-hard Saddlers but they know nothing and seem to get off on abusing the players and the manager even when we're winning. I am now what you would call a "casual" fan due to distance, work and generally being too busy sometimes even to listen to the match commentary on the Internet. But when I turn up to see the Saddlers I am fully behind the players and the manager and a die hard Saddler. OK - I will moan but I do not hurl abuse. I've been to games in the middle of winter in snow, rain, hail and arctic winds cutiing me in two at places like Wigan, Oldham and Stockport and seen us play cr@p - probably worse than we did against Rotherham yesterday (tho I wasn't there).
And each time there have been arseholes chanting abuse because they seem to get off on it. And these guys go to every game!!

You just can't please some people.

By Delves Saddler (82.37.162.58) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 03:06 pm: Edit

I left after the 2nd goal as I had no choice - the driver of our transport upped and left.

I took my 7 year old son who has only missed 2 games all season. He showed more passion and vocal support than most and didn't replicate the morons Jorge14, PGTips and the rest of us had to endure. Sorry Jorge14, but if anyone should be at these matches, it is the likes of my son.

By sj (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 03:22 pm: Edit

Without Baird we will struggle with the current squad and Colin Lee knows this. Baird more than O'Neil made runs from box to box for the whole 90 mins he gave the whole team a lift each and every time he plyed. We are now in the same position that we were in prior to those two boys coming to Walsall. We are creating nowt we've got no bite , no passion. Lee knows what needs to be done and I'm confident that he will do it. Our season hinges on the quality of the loanees Lee can get.

Lee did nothing wrong yesterday and had Baird played we would have probably won.

By Stu (195.92.67.69) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 03:29 pm: Edit

The tactics yesterday were a joke. Why on earth do we try to play a counter attacking style of football when we've no pace, energy or running in the middle of the park.

It was a great move when we had O'Neill's running and legs, but we're back to Samways, Corica, Dinning and Wrack. In all fairness, none of those 4 have the bursting energy required to catch teams on the break.

Delves, just because Emblen played doesn't mean its 3-5-2. It was 4-4-2, that was pretty clear I thought. Emblen came in to counter Rotherham's aerial threat which we did, but for gods sake, who on earth was marking Swailes when he was unmarked from 8 yards?

We must have spent all week practising set pieces, yet Swailes was unmarked. That is somebody's responsibility, the players should be embarrased about that schoolboy defending. The 2nd goal was always going to happen as we sent men forward.

Also, how can you play counter attacking football with players insistent on playing pitty patty football. Counter attack is meant to be direct, quick and incisive, its not about making 30 passess before you can shoot.

Finally, when your up against two centre halves like Swailes and MacIntosh, what on earth are we doing trying to play through them? You may as well give them the ball, the key yesterday was to try and get around the back but we've nobody to do that. We are bloody easy to play against if you pack the middle of the park.

It was a rubbish performance with no energy or guts to battle against a rugged team.

Yesterday made three things clear

1) We need some energy and running in the midfield.
2) We need some width so that we can try and change things.
3) We need a striker who can make something happen even when he has little service, even if its with pace.

Atrocious performance, poor tactics and a lack of leadership and responsibility on the pitch.

By David Potter (65.65.180.205) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 05:37 pm: Edit

Totally agree, Stu.

Our lack of pace and width is a concern.
Yesterday, was a perfect example of why we should have played Fryatt up front and Mark Wright at the back!

By Stu (195.92.67.75) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 05:55 pm: Edit

I'd like to see Fryatt on the bench, but I doubt he'd have had any affect yesterday. Swailes and MacIntosh would have found him easy to handle with our tactics yesterday.

Wright would have been eaten alive with Rotherham's style of play.

I thought the inclusion of Emblen was justified, shame that the centre halves didn't do their job with Swailes.

I'd love to know whats happened to Danny Hay this season. I have little faith in the bloke as of late, he really can be quite clumsy and awkward at times, he seems to have taken a step back after last season.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.174) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 06:42 pm: Edit

Well at least Ritchie should be back and Hay out next week. I totally agree with you Stu about Hay, I think we look much more vulnerable at the back with Hay in.

My choice would have been Emblen in central defence with Roper yesterday, and Bazeley in as a natural right back. As I see it, the first choice central defensive pairing has to be Ritchie and Roper but for me, if either is missing, Emblen would get the place miles ahead of Hay every time. I'd also like to see Wright get his chance soon, but against Rotherham was not the game to expose him.

Emblen put in some MoM performances early in the season, Hay has looked jittery, I just don't see CL's logic in preferring Hay ahead of Emblen.

As I wasn't there (thank God) I can't argue about formations or lay blame for where it all went wrong, but NO shots on target and NO corners speaks volumes for the efforts up front and presumably for our attacking midfield failings.

It seemed clear even just listening to the WM commentary on Saddlers World that our tactics weren't working. Yet we always know what to expect from Rotherham, little ever changes with them so it'll always be a hard physical direct approach, so why were we not properly equipped, why did we use the wrong tactics?

With players of Merson's and Samways' experience and undoubted ability out there, why is it they can't/don't take responsibility out there on the pitch to change things around when it's blatantly obvious that what we're doing isn't getting us anywhere? What's a captain supposed to do, blindly follow instructions? Surely CL should trust their judgment out on the pitch, otherwise what's the captain's armband for?

By popperpancake (81.79.95.4) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 10:03 pm: Edit

I wasn't there yesterday so i'll make no comment on that particular performance. Away from home our form is appalling, and has been since the first promotion season under RG. We have the occasional good result but generally we sneak a few draws and lose the rest. Another point of concern for me is how many times we come (or more specifically dont come) from behind to win or draw a game. We haven't come from behind once this season to win a game (carlisle i'm not counting) and we've come from behind to draw twice. I'm pretty certain we didn't come from behind to win at all last season. Either way we were bottom of the points gained league for last season (which is just a little stat thing u can find on football365 showing how many points a team gets in games they have conceded the first goal). Not sure what it shows but it must show something! Another change from last year is our record against top and bottom half. Last year we were excellent against teams in the lower half of the league, this year our results have been poor against the lower half sides and better against the top half. So there u go.

By Dave Roe (81.131.192.207) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 10:06 pm: Edit

With a player of Mersons quality and experience Lee should be allowing him free reign to make 90% of the tactical decisions during the match. It's obviously not happening. Is this because Merson won't take on the responsibility or because Lee won't delegate authority ?

How the hell can Lee ever imagine we are a counter attacking team ? He said somethind similar earlier this season. I nearly choked on my cuppa tea when I heard him say that.

From the comments about yesterdays game it only strengthens my feelings about away games. After Sunderland me and my mates agreed we probably wouldn't travel away again until the Albion match. Call me unloyal if you will but I think I'll keep myself warm at home and keep my money in my pocket.

By LOYAL saddler (216.148.246.70) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 11:32 pm: Edit

bloody hell - what an exciting lot we are on here, having a go at us for being a bit vocal ay? and for expressing our views...we do it verbal at the match but you lot have to run home and do it from behind your keyboards by the looks of it.

and whats wrong with getting a bit drunk before the match? yesterday was a good day out and a good laugh despite the result,i enjoyed it. But becuase you lot dont know how to go out and have a laugh you thought you would take it out on us that did yesterday.

and the anti sectarian songs....our personal religious view point....free speech and all that....

The only tune that i could play was to......(you know the rest)

oh and just for the record....BUTLERS STILL A barclays BUTLERS STILL A •••••• LA LA LA

By LOYAL saddler (66.119.33.135) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 12:00 am: Edit

and if we did all leave what would you have then ay?? no fvckin support at all thats what we'd have

oh and just for the record i will never boo byfield

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 01:02 am: Edit

I agree with Dave Roe on Lee's comments or fantasies should i say that Walsall are a counter attacking side.
When this idiot suggests such tripe can't all you ardent CL fans just ask youself
DOES THIS GUY REALLY KNOW WHAT HE IS SAYING OR DOING?
If the answer is YES i suggest you go and see your doctor.

By steelmass (80.225.103.4) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 01:24 am: Edit

jorge 14 you go to universty with the rest of the know nothing about football student crowd (THIS IS CERTIFIED . I am at universty and I still support tHElads I know many PEOPLE cant go to games due to financial personal or employment commitments give the team a chance and those who wanted graydon back PLEASE

I am sick of the negativity around here

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 01:33 am: Edit

This ain't the garden of eden steelmass. Its a message board in which people should tell the truth, something positive not negative.

By Stu (13.16.137.11) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 09:48 am: Edit

Must admit, how we could do with a striker like Butler who puts himself about and gets in where it hurts.

I'd love to know if either of our strikers would have gone in for that ball for the 2nd goal on Saturday. He put himself in between the centre half and Walker and risked a clattering to get that goal, he spent all match giving our centre halves arms and elbows to make things difficult for them as well.

6 goals so far this season for Rotherham, dunno how many matches, but its far less than any of our lot.

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 11:27 am: Edit

Stu, the intention may have been 4-4-2 but it ceratinly didn't look that way. Maybe the posters on here who have said we were all over the shop without any formation/system are right, considering our disagreement. From what I saw, we were frequently left with 3 at the back, so maybe that was the problem - they were expecting to play 4-4-2 but ende up with 3-5-2 or whatever. Either way, confusion seemed to have set in.

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 11:50 am: Edit

Now for my rant:

LOYAL Saddler, you f*cking moron. Let me just pick your post to pieces. Starting with the one thing that really offends me and gets right up my nose.

The anti-sectarian songs are your personal religious view point are they? Well if you had any idea about what you're singing about, you will:

A. Realise that the Pope has denounced the IRA on numerous occasions. Fair enough, slag off the IRA, but why the Pope? I am an Roman Caholic but I detest the IRA (and yes, I am an english man who loves his country). I find your 'song' both offensive and disgusting.

B. Know that it is the Pope and the Catholic church that canonised your beloved St. George in AD 494. St. George was a great man (defender of the Christians against the Romans) but, and I take great pleasure in telling you this, he was /b{Asian} and much of his life is pure legend. The real patron saint of England is St. Thomas a Becket but because he was an anti-Royal, King Richard came back from the Crusdaes with a 'new' patron Saint - George.

I too had a few drinks before the match, matey, and I have nothing against that - I enjoy a few pints at any time but it's all part and parcel of a good footballing day out. However, when it turns people like you into obsecene individuals, it misses the point, doesn't it.

As for Loyal - I haven't missed a game home or away in any competition since October 1998 and I give my full vocal support at the match (as does my 7 year old son, who's opinions count for more than your's) without abusing ex-players. I then come home to discuss the match/the state of walsall FC/the state of the world cerebrally with my friends on this board. We don't always agree but we don't get abusive to each other if that is the case, which I have seen you lot do on numerous occasions to fans who ask you to be a bit more respectful.

Grow up and get educated!

By Bristol Saddler (217.161.104.2) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 12:32 pm: Edit

Nice post Delves!

As for all the other posts there seems to be a general theme, but lets not panic just yet, but come on guys lets get a few things in persepctive:

(1) Rotherham - is always gonna be one of those difficult away trips, sh*t ground, sh*t place, pumped up former players, struggling side targetting Walsall for a win, Ritchie, O'Neill, Baird missing.
(2) Booing former players, particularly one who got us in this division is pointless and inspires these players to over perform. Infact if you do it you are a twerp!
(3) Slagging off people taking their kids, is absolutely pathetic and I personally admire anyone who does (particularly away). Don't some of you tw*ts realise that these are the Saddlers fans of the future and we all have a duty to get our kids into the Saddlers (as my father did) rather than the Russians or those C*nts on the red side of Manchester. Its also expensive and I imagine difficult!
(4) Most grounds Tea is pretty sh*te!
(5) Its perfectly acceptable away from home to leave the ground a few mins early if your team is playing sh*te and you are 2-0 down in a sh*t hole of a ground.
(6) Racist or anti-religious chanting has no place in todays society, if you wanna do it join the NF!
(7) Calling for Sir Ray Graydon is no way to motivate your own team or manager and Sir Ray would be the first to tell you.
(8) CL by the sounds (I wasn't at the game), made a tactical mistake and believe me he will learn from it.
(9) CL is managing the club during its most successful period, do twerp like C&D not realise that.
(10) Lets not let our expectations get carried away, best we can hope for at present is a mid table finish. With our gates, finances, squad!
(11) We only have three strikers! One's inexperienced and not the finished article, the other is out of sorts/confidence and the other can't be ruined by being played to early!
(12) Lets give CL to xmas (as I thought we agreed sometime ago) and see where we are now!

KEEP THE FAITH!

By popperpancake (81.134.130.108) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 01:11 pm: Edit

So no-one thinks its worrying that if we go a goal down we might as well go home?

By Bristol Saddler (217.161.104.2) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 02:23 pm: Edit

Pancake is you are referring to my point 5, I am suggesting that if we are playing sh*te and 2-0 down away from home, that if you want to, its perfectly acceptable to leave a few minutes before full time. It is a free country!

Incidently I have only ever left one Saddlers game early in my entire life!

By Stu (13.16.137.11) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 03:15 pm: Edit

Bristol,

Your first point is slightly flawed. Why?

If you want to be a mid-table side, you have to be able to go to the likes of Rotherham and grind out a result.
If the weather is crap, the ground is a shed, you need to dig deep and show fight, spirit and balls.

But, the biggest flaw of all, is that you say we were missing Ritchie, O'Neill and Baird.

We'll be missing two of those players for the remainder of the season, they're not our players and if we're reliant on two loan players keeping us up, then god help us.

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 03:16 pm: Edit

Nice post too, Bristol.

However, I must disagree with "...and the other can't be ruined by being played to early!" though, as I assume you are referring to Fryatt, who I have advocated for the first team on numerous occasions.

Also, I would give CL longer than to Christmas - he's building a squad/football club not just a one season team. Fergie took how many years....?

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 03:18 pm: Edit

N.B. Before I get pulled up for my historical innacuracy, I will also point out that St. Edmund and Edward the Confessor were also Patron saints of England before St. George.

By LOYAL saddler (66.119.33.135) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 04:44 pm: Edit

watch your blood pressure delves saddler...theres nowt wrong with being a bit patriotic now is there, or are you one of these tossers that thinks its a disgrace to fly the cross of st george ay?

and im obscene? im not the one calling people "f*cking morons" for having a bit of national pride.

KEEP ST GEORGE IN MY HEART KEEP ME ENGLISH

By popperpancake (81.134.130.108) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 05:24 pm: Edit

Bristol i wasnt referring to ur point. I was emphasising how poor we are at grinding out results when we go behind, as shown by my stats above. A lack of fighting spirit in the side perhaps?

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 05:41 pm: Edit

But you are one of a group of people who stand there singing anti-religious songs that are factually incorrect and offensive (the same group that contains people who (quoting Jorge14) abuse an elderly gentleman who ask you to shut up,and call him a "fat b@stard".) That makes you obscene.

I note you have not countered my point about your slagging off the pope, who has denounced the IRA. No apology for the slander and offense caused to me?

I am as English and proud of it as any of your group and fly the flag of St. George in my house and on my clothes etc. I also wear a rose on St. George's day. So, no, I am not one of those tossers. And do you really think you are being patriotic by offending the millions of ENGLISH catholics in this country? You are alienating a large chunk of your own countrymen.

KEEP ST.GEORGE IN MY HEART KEEP ME ENGLISH

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 05:43 pm: Edit

AND DON'T YOU EVER, EVER QUESTION MY PATRIOTISM AGAIN.

By LOYAL saddler (170.224.224.38) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 06:14 pm: Edit

woooo....hit a nerve have i?

firstly...i will never ever tell an old man to shut up and call him a fat •••••••....and to be frank daint see anyone who did. i believe this may be a case of dragging our name through the mud....we sang it a man in the rotherham ground who took is top off but that happens every week...and if you find that offensive tough 5hit.

and no no aplogy for offense called to you...as i doubt i will get an apoplogy for causing me a "twerp" and a "fu*kin retard"

and if you dont like us singing/chanting then invest in a pair of ear plugs

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN

By LOYAL saddler (216.148.246.70) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 06:16 pm: Edit

sorry- "calling"

By Jorge14 (195.93.34.9) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 07:04 pm: Edit

Loyal, unfortunately, if you want to profess your innoncence, maybe you should make sure you don't sing "you fat b@stard" at him as he leaves the stand. Pathetic.

Delves, as you are aware, I'm a RC as well, my mom's parent are also Northern Irish, from Derry (notice, not Londonderry, i presume I can be called sectarian for that!), but I am proudly English. I was born in England and my parents were born in England...but I'm also proud that one half of my family originates from Northern Ireland.

For example, my grandad served with distinction in the Second World War. He was Catholic, from Derry, but fought for this country. In my house, we have a diploma on the wall from the Norweigan's, to thank him for helping to restore Freedom to Norway.

If it wasn't for Catholic, Jewish and other "minorities" from mid-20th century who were soldiers, you wouldn't be able to be proud to be English, we'd be speaking German, and most likely, half of us wouldn't be here now.

My Scottish team of choice is Celtic, I presume yours is Rangers, I don't have a problem with that, you are protestant and not of IRish descent, so you support Rangers. But I'm sure that if I wore a Celtic shirt to the match, I'd get abused. Can you say that's right?

Anyway, we've gone over this ground too much. We're not gonna get anywhere soon.

Surely, saying...
UP THE SADDLERS!!!
is more important than arguing about religion! I know Geoff probably find this rivitting, i just find it boring! lol ;-)

By rugeleysaddler (217.42.160.11) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 07:37 pm: Edit

Whilst I genuine lurk as opposed to post on this message board I feel compelled to add my support to Delves' words above.

As I have said before that song is offensive to me and our Catholic players but what really annoys me is that it makes our club seem "small time" and supported by knucklescraping burberry wearing morons to the world at large.

Sorry to revertt to name calling but Loyal is a comple prat.

By Ralph (195.93.34.9) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 08:35 pm: Edit

Loyal are you one of those twerp who keeps slagging Wolves of throughout the game. Stand up if you hate the Wolves.Slap a Dingle or more Wolves abuse. Maybe we should get behind our team like the other 23 teams do. How many teams this season have sung about another team .... none that i can think of. Thats one of the main reason , these fools abuse Colin Lee (Sack the Dingle), if i was'nt for Colin Lee we would be mid table in Div 2 , if not worse.


This club has come on leaps and bounds in the past 2 years under Lee, he has brought in provern Div 1 players unlike before when we had to do with players such as Bica, Carlos Andre and all the other crap who have played for us .
The future looks good with the link with Manchester United and the Danish team.


Colin Lee is doing a good job we are 17th in Div 1 without spending no money, on our day we can outplay most teams in this division. Just look at the West Brom and Forest games !!!!!!!!!!

Loyal im also a Catholic and hate it when you sing those songs . I've been to see other teams this season not one sings about the IRA or anything else , apart from tossers like you who think its big and fun to do it because your pissed thick dole collecting mate does it

By Exile (203.167.253.205) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 09:04 pm: Edit

Loyal Saddler = anagram of "ill-educated loser"

By sum1else (81.106.181.113) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 10:08 pm: Edit

hmm, i think we are missing the point a little here.

ok, so loyal saddlers songs may not be the best choice - but at least him and his mates are making some noise. if you have a problem with the songs of their choice, MAKE MORE NOISE THAN THEM!

this is clearly a problem that we have at our club - too few people willing to sing, too many willing to knock those who do

By LOYAL saddler (66.119.33.135) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 11:15 pm: Edit

WHEYYYYYYYYYYYY some one with a brain....thats a good point right there....theres 50 of us and 1000's of you...so you lot make more noise than us....and you wont here us will ya

By SS (213.122.226.148) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 11:25 pm: Edit

man, a funeral is more interesting then this thread!

Loyal saddler (i know who u are mwuhahahaha! lolol) howdies!

By Dave Roe (81.131.72.54) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 11:28 pm: Edit

Well if you know him SS, make sure you say hello in the playground !


By LOYAL saddler (170.224.224.134) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 11:33 pm: Edit

"Loyal, unfortunately, if you want to profess your innoncence, maybe you should make sure you don't sing "you fat b@stard" at him as he leaves the stand. Pathetic."

WE FU<KING DIDNT JESUS CHRIST HOW DENSE ARE U PEOPLE.....and if we did...i didnt hear, or do it

By LOYAL saddler (66.119.33.135) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 11:39 pm: Edit

and ss-alrite m8...i wouldnt stick around....you sing every now and again...so this lot wont like ya

By Cannock (62.31.216.219) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 12:03 am: Edit

Is this a declare yourself Catholic / official coming out thread? This is getting ridiculous.

To continue with the theme, i bat for the other side.

By rugeleysaddler (217.43.180.164) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 12:05 am: Edit

Nope I don't like you because you are an idiot "m8te"

By Dave Roe (81.131.72.54) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 12:35 am: Edit

How dense are YOU ?

It's not your singing we object to, it's the bloody stupid sectarian crap you sing about. I wish everyone in the ground would sing to give a great atmosphere. I just wish the loudest singers would confine their efforts into singing pro - Walsall songs instead of trying to look hard and copy the England hooligan song.

By LOYAL saddler (66.119.34.39) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 12:50 am: Edit

copy england??? we'r going to portugal

and we do sing pro-walsall songs as well...but no ody joins in do they....maybe if a few of you did it mite get somewhere but you dont do you.....i bet 90% of the people on here have never STARTED a song off in there lives!

oh and your all coming out here with your catholic views so why cant we sing about our protestant ones?
just becuase you dont agree with them?

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 01:08 am: Edit

Do us all a favour Loyal Saddler. If you really feel the need to sing, instead of the cr*p you come out with why don't you set the ball rolling with a few anti Lee tunes.

By LOYAL saddler (66.119.34.39) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 01:54 am: Edit

we get slatted for that n all by the do-gooders patrol...we did it in rotherham...which apparantly makes me a "mindless twerp"

personaly i think lee demonstrated againt that he is clueless..we play so bloody negative away we ay never gonna win...he thinks we'r counter attacking team?? do me a favour...theres a reason the dingles wanted rid....and to be replaced by mark mcgoooooo should set the alarm bells ringing

anyways....i know il get slated for this becuase i have different views than you lot and am not afraid to voice them so with that endeth the anti lee rant

RULE BRITTANIA BRITTANIA RULES THE WAVES!

By LOYAL saddler agen (66.119.33.170) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 01:57 am: Edit

oh and cox and drummie of course i feel the NEED to sing noone else bloody does....i know your all gonna come on here and say you do...but the fact of the matter is very VERY few really do

By Exile (203.167.253.205) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 03:12 am: Edit

There's leaders and followers when people start singing, "loyal", and sadly when you lead off with your bigoted crap nobody else wants to join in. Maybe if you weren't such a bunch of juveniles you'd find people (i) liked you more and (ii) would be happy to follow your lead when you sang proper football songs.

As it is, you're more a case of the thugs in the corner than the Barmy Army Brass Band, and at least as tiresome both ways round.

"Loyal Saddler"? There's more loyalty in my dead grandmother's headstone than there is in your little finger. You're just using the label as an accessory, probably in line with your ••••• designer clothes (just a guess). Ask yourself what being a Saddler REALLY means before answering.

Cheers all
Exile

By JPD (203.18.34.5) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 03:48 am: Edit

Just back to the footie for a moment before you lot rant at each other again.
I thought Exiles comment a bit above was good - why did Lee (on the Express and Star site) even mention we should be careful about a visit to Rotherham?
In this and all other divisions, most of the teams are big, rough, nasty and desperate boys.
Why put any doubt at all in the players minds?
A mistake I think.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 10:52 am: Edit

I tell you what being a Saddlers fan is about Exile, it's about doing our utmost to oust this complete clueless idiot we have in charge on saturday against Bradford.
If Loyal Saddler and his crew want to sing anti Lee songs ill join em by leading the chorus.
I want banners reading LEE OUT. I want demonstartions before and after the match. I want anti Lee songs ringing through my ears by every true Saddlers fan because unless we free our club of this man WE HAVE NO FUTURE.

By machew (195.224.86.71) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 11:02 am: Edit

I read this thread and can't believe my eyes. No wonder we have no atmosphere; all of our fans are pulling in different directions. To make matters worse the singing chanting that does exist is mostly negative in some form or other. Anti-Lee, Anti-IRA, Anti-Wolves etc. Does anyone feel the inclination to come along to Bescot to cheer on the Saddlers at all ?

Whatever our beliefs and opinions (and some of these are unbelievably ignorant) surely the one thing in common that we all have is that we want the Saddlers to do well. With that in mind, surely we must be able to agree that if we all united out efforts into putting some positive atmosphere around the place we might be able to play a part in the team picking up points.

If you were a player would you achieve more infront of a happy positive vibe or a negative fickle vibe ???

By Stu (13.16.137.11) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 11:40 am: Edit

C&D, for one minute I nearly thought you were serious.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 12:03 pm: Edit

I am deadly serious Stu. I cannot stand the thought of Walsall football club been destroyed single handedly by Colin Lee and he will beleive me.
We are so under achieving right now and that is down to him. He has to go for us to move forward as a club.
The time has come for Saddlers fans to stand up and realise this, starting on saturday against Bradford.

By ucow (212.137.57.25) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 12:14 pm: Edit

oh yet another does of verbale crap from C&D's mouth! who on earth is going to come to walsall and work within the peramiters set out but jeff bonser and co and keep us in the division and re-structure the club?

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 12:36 pm: Edit

It's the typical Dingle mentality. if you aren't in the top half, you should be, themn you should be in the top six, then the premiership, then Europe, and if not, it's all the manager's fault (and never the players), cause I know best and we deserve it. He ought to wear Old Gold.

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Oh, and I forgot, it's never down to the oposition if you fail to win, as their job is to roll over and die, so anything short of three points is our own fault.

(And no, I don't think Lee is perfect, but these simplistic explanations do my head in).

By Stu (13.16.137.11) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 12:41 pm: Edit

I wouldn't say we are under-performing in the slightest, but then again, I wouldn't say we are over-performing either.

I expected a mid-table slot, circa 12th-15th. We're hardly a million miles away from there at all, in fact, we're just a single victory from it.

The trouble with this division is that nobody has any form of consistency.

Considering our lack of resources in the striking department, I don't think we're doing too bad and I'm quite pleased with how this season has gone so far.

I do think certain things could be better, we could play a lot more positive away from home and I really don't understand how he can expect us to play counter attacking football away from home when we have no pace and no width. But we don't have the worst away record in the division either. Thats my only criticism, but I could reel off a list of things he has played a part in that have taken this club forward.

Lee's success in the job is creating expectations, something we've never had before.

I really don't understand any mentality calling for Lee to go to be honest with you.

If I was giving this season a school report, it'd be "Shows promise, could do better at times but holding their own."

For all that we'd love to say "Top 1/3 of the class", we'll never do that unless we start spending cash or decent wages on a quality striker.

By Geoff Whiting (80.177.14.124) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Spot on Stu, couldn't have put it better myself, so I won't try.

I'm really looking forward to the Bradford game now. C&D and the louts with their banners saying "Lee out", the songs asking for "Lee out", perfectly supplementing the wonderfully inspiring Pope/IRA song, all extremely positive stuff and bound to provoke an uplifting response and a better performance from the players out there on the pitch - the Bradford players that is! Who knows c&d's tactics could probably ensure we lose the game, then he can blame CL again, as bl**dy usual!

Get this into your head C&D, "Lee is going nowhere"! Bonser has total respect for him and what he's achieved at Bescot, you are wasting your time and wasting your breath. Lee is here to stay for a long time yet, so stop under-mining him with all this anti-Lee propaganda.

Get behind Lee and the team like most of us asnd maybe we'll see some improvement - carry on as you are and all you'll do is help us get further down the table.
You say you can't stand the thought of Walsall FC being destroyed etc.... I'd argue you're only adding to the chances of that happening.

Stop wasting your breath on this "CL out" campaign which is bound to fail, SUPPORT the club instead!

UP THE SADDLERS !!!

By Stu (13.16.137.11) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 02:51 pm: Edit

If I were a prospective new signing, new coach or even a new fan. From the outside you'd look at us and think everything is in place to move forward.

The ground is expanded and we're looking to carry that on. A club attracting far better quality of players, Ritchie, Samways, Merson et al

Trouble is, you'd then look towards the fans who are split in sections. Some want Lee out, some appear to prefer singing about the Wolves than they do Walsall, some like singing sectarian rubbish despite the fact that Walsall has no Catholic/Protestant divide and some sit there like they're about to drop dead.

I love a good song, but I hate the sectarian crap, I hate anti-Lee crap but I hate the dormant atmosphere you sometimes get to.

If, as a prospective new signing, coach or fan, there was one thing that put me off. It'd be us, the fans. Then again, this and other message board only represent the most miniscule percentage in terms of our fan-base.

By LOYAL saddler (66.119.33.170) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 04:47 pm: Edit

...right you all love a good song? so.....when we sing pro walsall songs...goin down the wednesbury road etc its still only us lot that sing it...so if you dont like the atmosphere been 5hite....instead of moaning on about us...do something about it

OR....you lot could try starting your own songs if you dont like ours? or maybe you all prefer to sit there in your zombified state? then come on here and slag us off?

By cheese bag (212.126.144.12) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 04:50 pm: Edit

I miss going away and singing Yellow, Yellow, every time we got a corner away from home in the late 80's. Bring back the yellow away kit!!!!

By Crouch End Saddler (217.33.194.194) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 05:26 pm: Edit

All this is getting a bit "My Dad's bigger than your Dad."
The plain fact is LOYAL (by the way the way you type LOYAL in capitals infers that the rest of us aren't, which in itself is deeply annoying) that singing anti-catholic songs makes you a deply racist individual and tars the rest of us who have to sit there through your pathetic little rantings with the same racist brush and, particularly on Saturday, left me deeply embarrased as I was with my 75 year old Catholic father-in-law attending his first Walsall match.

Picture the scene, I spend three years trying to persuade him to come along to watch the Mighty Saddlers (my wife's family are from the area)waxing lyrical about what a great club it is, how it should be lauded for the giant strides it has made in attempting to transform itself from the miserable days of Chester, Exeter, Scarborough, Aldershot, Hereford and Shrewsbury away (note that those six of our contempories are now either out of existance or out of the football league) and as we sit down the cries of 'No Surrender' start, shattering the myth.

Make no bones about it this chant is extremely offensive, ensures that opposition fans think we are ignorant fools from Birmingham and totally undermines the hard work that has been done to improve the club's image outside the West Midlands.

What is the difference between singing anti-Catholic songs (poorly disguised as pro-English, anti-IRA ditties) and anti Black, Jewish, Asian chants?

None is the short answer before you start overtaxing your lonely brain cell.

If you feel you are making a political point then fine, lobby Parliament, go on marches.

Just don't make me ashamed to be a Saddler.

Unfortunately that was exactly how I felt on Saturday and it was nothing to do with the ••••-poor performance on the pitch, more the small-minded bigotry off it.

Sorry everyone else I seem to have ranted a little there.

Up The Saddlers

By Stu (13.16.137.11) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Loyal,

Unless I'm mistaken, when pro-WFC songs are sung a lot more people join in than when the Pope song is sung.

I've got no interest in singing about the Pope and the IRA. My grandad was Glaswegian and a strong Rangers fan and Protestant, but personally, I don't see what on earth any of that bickering has to do with Walsall FC.

Surely its more at home outside a Catholic church if anything!

The biggest problem is that all the singers are now in little pockets, rather than all together. So you get 3/4 people here, 3/4 people there, 3/4 people elsewhere etc, so it hardly creates a corking atmosphere when you've a crowd as small as ours.

By LOYAL u all love me really saddler (66.119.34.39) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 05:46 pm: Edit

"Loyal,

Unless I'm mistaken, when pro-WFC songs are sung a lot more people join in than when the Pope song is sung."

well you coulda fooled me...as far as i can tell its near enough the same people

and we have sung the song in question for a good few years now...so why choose now to complain??

By Crouch End Saddler (217.33.194.194) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 06:12 pm: Edit

Loyal

By taking your logic (that because the song has been sung for a few years it is OK) to the extreme we would be in a position where the US (and UK)would still be profiting from the slave trade, Hitler's ideals would still hold water, Stalin would probably be described as 'over-zealous' and there would be no peace process in Northern Ireland.

It is a simple process called PROGRESS.

Of course I wouldn't expect a small-minded bigot like you to understand that but hopefully you'll print this off and get someone to translate it for you.

By LOYAL saddler (216.148.244.38) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 06:33 pm: Edit

so did this song only become unacceptable this weekend?? or did you just think we we'r so bad now would be a good time to all av a good moan at us.

if you dont like us dont join in with us....or you could try singing over the top.....maybe not....just buy ear plugs

By Crouch End Saddler (217.33.194.194) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 06:48 pm: Edit

No once again you fail to miss the point. This I will attempt to explain once more in language you may understand.

The song has always been a racist song you ignorant •••• and that makes you a total gobshite fudge who doesnt even have the ability to recognise it.

You are not the only fudge at the match who sing nor are you even in the majority. You and all your equally thick mates make the rest of us who go to the match to watch a ••••••• game of football look like a bunch of ••••••• twerp as well.

The rest of the whole of Bescot has had enough of you Scunthorpe singing this song and any other racist rant, not supportive songs, which is why the sensible fudge amongst us are finally getting pissed of with it.

Was that simple enough for you? I do of course apologise to other readers of this thread but sometimes you just have to dumb yourselves down to the level of primordial soup to get a point across.

By Sum1else (81.106.181.113) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 08:14 pm: Edit

"Was that simple enough for you?"

do you not think that he is winding you up? and would you blame him for the arrogant and aggressive manner that you've all assulted him in?

take a good, long, hard look at yourselves. is it any better of you to be having a go in such a manner than it is of him to be singing this one (and lets not forget, it is only 1 song we are abusing him over)? shame on you all

for the record, i am a protestant that has the utmost respect for the pope and although i remain dead against the ira, i can see their grievances. it disappoints me to hear this song, but at the end of the day if i had such a problem with it i would try to sing louder than them, and sing a pro-walsall song.

and i certainly would not be found abusing someone for not sharing my point of view - perhaps if you had tried to explain why in a sensible manner rather than call him a twerp or a fudge or even just plain thick, then you may have got through. instead i fear you will only spur the singers of these songs on more - if only to spite you!

By Exile (203.167.253.205) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 10:50 pm: Edit

Like any good message board war, escalation is the order of the day!

He started it


By Sum1else (81.106.181.113) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 10:55 pm: Edit

lol

By LOYAL saddler (66.119.33.170) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 10:57 pm: Edit

but becuase my

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