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Norwich (h) - League - 1st November 2003

Reports and reaction from the 2003-04 season as Walsall finished 22nd (R) in Division 1
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Norwich (h) - League - 1st November 2003

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:40 pm

By the other bournemouth saddler (195.93.34.9) on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 09:18 pm: Edit

I dont suppose bournemouth saddler or anyone else from the bournemouth area is driving to the game on saturday are they? Finally got my income sorted and missing seeing the boys! {train is a bit too steep this close to saturday, not to mention unreliable!}

By Stu (195.92.67.70) on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 08:12 pm: Edit

Oh well, quite simply we should hold our hands up and admit that we were beaten by a better team.

They were by far the best team I have personally seen this season. Energy, movement, pace, strength and a very well practiced game plan.

Can't really criticise us as I think we played against a better bunch of individuals. Sometimes you just have to admit that.

The only real disappointment was that we gifted them their goals, as they did to us.

1st - Bazeley tracked his man to the near post, but why did Merson stand and watch Drury make his run past him to the touchline? Where was the left back tracking Henderson who came around the back?

2nd - Jorge tracked McVeigh to the edge of the box and stopped. Schoolboy stuff, and didn't Ritchie & Roper let him know it.

3rd - Another ball inside the full back, Wrack easily exposed. Not his fault, he isn't a left back... You have to ask Ritchie/Roper why Crouch was unmarked.

But we shouldn't get too downhearted as they were a far better side than we've faced this season. We'd have struggled to keep up with them even if we'd been firing on all cylinders.

Well done Norwich. Now to bounce back on Tuesday.

By Stu (195.92.67.70) on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 08:16 pm: Edit

And one more point. What was so confusing about our formation when he replaced Vincent with Lawrence?

Wrack went to left back, our only real option, Birch to left midfield and Leitao up front to maintain a 4-4-2. I didn't think he really had any other option.

I presume the reason Norwich had only won once away this season was because they don't play like that every game.

By Jorge14 (195.93.34.9) on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 08:30 pm: Edit

Stu, personally, I would have brought Danny Hay or Embo on to replace Vincent, sending Ritchie to left back.

I'll get behind Jorge, but his time is running out, and so is the patience of the fans. I sat the other end from the Purple in the second half. What were people saying about messrs Lawrence and Leitao.

Personally, I find it worrying that the loss of two loan players can completely upset the balance of the team.

Stu, I totally agree with you. We were beaten by the better team. Fair play to Norwich, the players worked hard and the fans were superb.

By J (82.37.172.104) on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 08:48 pm: Edit

Lawrence - good wide man, played in the centre
Wrack - right winger, played at left back after vincent went off
Jorge, Striker, seemed to play right wing when he came on
Merson, midfeilder was played up front

Bloody Stupid Decision from Lee, if Vincents Injured you bring on Emblen and put Ritchie at Left back insted of re arranging the whole team

By bloodred (82.37.177.152) on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 08:49 pm: Edit

i take it that shefild saddler is currantly having an operation to have his bottom seeled up seeing as he said garry birch would nver make a footballer whilst he had a whole in his arse. might be even quiater on hear.

By cleeque (82.37.177.152) on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 08:49 pm: Edit

how can u say that about shefield? he allways gives his opinion conssistently and farely wear as you are never hear. put youre name, waffle, exclamation mark, bold face, rubarb, cr ampisand p, smiley. wafle, rubarb, !!!!!!!!!!, ampisand, crossout affect, wacky sense of humor, python refference, !!!!!!!!!, in joke, green coat, mock ofence, smiley.

By PGtips (195.188.152.14) on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 08:55 pm: Edit

Yes hats off to Norwich who were superb today.

Two particular points of praise for us:
(1) Gary Birch was excellent. He is now starting to earn a place in the side with consistent performances and even a goal.
(2) We did not give up and kept trying to play football even though we came up against quality opposition on top of their game. Some of the Graydon/Taylor sides of a few years ago could have gone for a cricket score in that match.

Two particular points of concern for us:
(1) Another red card. What madness at a time when the game was long gone. Now we lose a key player to suspension yet again. The discipline problem must be addressed and the book should be thrown at Ritchie.
(2) Jamie Lawrence. I'm sorry but I thought he was a strange buy at the time and he has done nothing to convince me since. Why do we need a cast off from a struggling side anyway? Bradford were happy to see him go and you can see why. It was like watching Tony Grealish all over again today.

Colin Lee's tactics. Well possibly he could have moved Ritchie to left back but Wrack has played well there before. We were losing at the time so it seems reasonable to bring more firepower on - if Jorge can be described as firepower at the moment. Birch has been succesful as an attacker coming in from a wide position before. I had no problem understanding the formation and I don't see what all the hysterical callers to WM were on about tonight.

We did sit back after scoring though. I don't care how many times CL tells us he does not instruct players to do this it still happens. Yes Norwich came at us but several players were guilty of dawdling in midfield, content to hold possession and not getting forward to support the front men when we did have the ball.

By Stu (195.92.67.70) on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 09:37 pm: Edit

PG has it spot on. At the time, it was 1-1 (or was it 1-0, can't remember), Lee was trying to win the match.

Ritchie was keeping Huckerby fairly quiet, so why move him from there. Wrack has played there and done well many a time.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

By Matt W (193.237.56.21) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 09:41 am: Edit

Keeping Lawrence on for so long was vindictive by Lee,he was so obviously lost and should not have come out for the second half. One of the reasons for Vinnie's increased rate of mispaced passes was the lack of targets as Lawrence did his best to hide at every opportunity. All I can think is that Lee sees Lawrence as the long term solution to our lack of energy in the middle, on that showing I would say Lee needs a rethink.

Yesterday was a good example of how relying on short term loan players is a double-edged sword - great while you have them but makes the team look even worse when they go.

In games like that Merson needs to take more responsibility, he perked up when Norwich got their third but by then it was all over.

Jorge has now been messed around so much I think his confidence has gone which is a shame as handled correctly he could have continued to be a real talent for us.

By Matt W (193.237.56.21) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 09:55 am: Edit

Keeping Lawrence on for so long was vindictive by Lee,he was so obviously lost and should not have come out for the second half. One of the reasons for Vinnie's increased rate of mispaced passes was the lack of targets as Lawrence did his best to hide at every opportunity. All I can think is that Lee sees Lawrence as the long term solution to our lack of energy in the middle, on that showing I would say Lee needs a rethink.

Yesterday was a good example of how relying on short term loan players is a double-edged sword - great while you have them but makes the team look even worse when they go.

In games like that Merson needs to take more responsibility, he perked up when Norwich got their third but by then it was all over.

Jorge has now been messed around so much I think his confidence has gone which is a shame as handled correctly he could have continued to be a real talent for us.

By Mark W (81.132.237.49) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 11:00 am: Edit

Although Lawrences performance yesterday rates as one of the worst ever in a Walsall shirt for me it is surely the manager who must take the blame.If Lee cannot see that the guy spent his entire time on the pitch actually avioding the ball at every opportunity then he should not be manager of this club.
I don't like critisising individual players but Lawrences performance was beyond belief even if he was out of position.
Lee got it all wrong AGAIN.

By John Keegan (195.92.168.168) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 11:24 am: Edit

I think there is some sort of Jamaican international conspiracy against us. Simpson, Lawrence, Burton, Hall. Do they take take the pi55 out of us at international games?

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 12:43 pm: Edit

What a pathetic performance by the team the manager and some of it's fans on here.
Im hearing comments like i can't criticise, we were beaten by a better team. Granted Norwich were a tidy side but don't you think that we allowed them to look better than they were
If anyone can figure out what that silly formation that Lee is playing, let me know.
All i could see in the whole game was confusion on players faces as to what thier duties were.
Colin Lee is obsessed with setting up his formation as a defensive one. He played 4 narrow in midfield to try and stifle the extra man they had centrally.
Colin sometimes you have to think to yourself, who cares wether they got a spare man in the middle, we will get our players wide and do em that way. His whole thinking is totally about trying to stifle the opposition and all this does is dent confidence in your own players because they see thier duties as spoilers instead of creators.
There were yet more disturbing signs, tacticaly and with certain players. Jamie Lawrence should never ever put a Walsall shirt on again, i am deeply ashamed of you, you are a disgrace to your proffession. Look in the mirror son and tell me you deserved your wages for that tosh yesterday.
I tell you this mate, talent and ability, well thats natural, u either got it or you ain't, but hard work and effort come for free mate with all of us. I would never EVER accept less than 100% from any player. Well Lee does because he patted Lawrence on the back when he substituted him.
Are you so stupid Colin that you don't realise you just been conned by your own player.
Yet by the same token you reward a player who scored 2 goals last week by putting him at left back, what a pearl that is, will do Wracks confidence the world of good that one.
I looked for a leader on that pitch yesterday when they equalised. An Andy Rammel, O Connor, a Goodman. All i seen were a bunch of fancy dans only interested in thier own performance than that of the team.
Then i looked at the bench to see Lee and his little demoted toady Halsall come up with thier useless tactical decisions. All while Emblem was stretching frantically looking at Lee as if to say, if you need a real man Colin, im here.
At 1-1 he may have been the man to get on, but deep into injury time, WHATS THE POINT.

By ucow (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 01:29 pm: Edit

did you go to the game yesterday C&D? as you seam to have watched a completly different game to me and others who are posting on hear? we played wrack as a left back because he was the only player on the park who could have done this as the only left footed player in the defence at the time was ritchie who was needed as a center half and has as far as i know never played as a left back and would have been palled all over the place! as for the formation we lost our two most influential players who have pace and ability to crate that little bit extra! as for having a go at colin lee for his tacticks when every player on the pitch was having an off day except maybe for birch and osborne is just laughable! and is showing a distinct lack of knowledge of the game imho but whats new there with your postings C&D? its as if you have waited for the morning papers to turn up and you have read them and decided to make comments on the game C&D! the fromation we had yesterday was the same as last week that produced the win! the main difference was that we lost our pace in the side and brought back two donkeys who should never be allowed to set foot inside bescot let alone onto the pitch! lawrence was pathetic but bazley was just as bad! he was scared to tackle had no confidence and the pace of the game is just passing him by! we need to bring baird straight back in on tuesday along with zigor as left back and hopefully o'neil will be back and we can see how the formation that colin lee is trying to use works as its all built around pace and moverment off the ball which we were lacking yesterday with the introduction of the two players who came back into the squad!

By PGtips (195.188.152.12) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 01:33 pm: Edit

C&D - in case you still can not work it out it was 4-4-2. Wrack as a straight swap for the injured vincent with Birch taking his place wide. Jorge then took Birch's place. All the players involved had played succesfully in these positions before. None of them were confused. You however obviously are. I realise this is actually 3 changes in one moment so it may take you a while to catch on but the players all got it straight away.

Forest game on Tuesday: Would you like to come and sit near to me so I can explain what is going on for you?

By PT (213.48.245.203) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 01:41 pm: Edit

A far longer post than after last week C&D, so easy to be negative so hard to be positive isn't it?
What walsall are doing is the realisation of a dream for me. I spent 25 years, travelling all over dreaming that one day Walsall would cement a place in the second flight of English football. We're doing that at the moment, but because we're playing at such a high level we will get outplayed some weeks and yesterday was one such day. Great display of passing and movement from Norwich that if you can detach youself for a moment was a joy to watch, as was Jimmy's goalkeeping display.
The WM phonecallers, the negativity on here every time we lose is systematic of the current trend of people thinking that they know the tactical ins and outs of the game. Football is just one industry to which I'm a customer and very rarely would I be arrogant enough to suggest that i knew more about that industry than the people who work within it every day.
I've seen us play around 1000 times on nearly 100 grounds and what i see on the pitch at the moment is as enjoyable as ever. However, what I hear around me at matches, on the radio and what I read on here and other web-sites fills me with enormous disappointment.
On yesterday, I agree with everything Stu has written . Pethaps I'm out of touch and past it but as for C&D, well he's entitled to air his opinions but Walsall fans that I've shared so many highs and lows with have never been so quick to turn, so keen on the negative, so blinkered about the quality of opposition, we'd always left that sort of thing to our friends up the road.

By Mark W (81.132.56.173) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 01:52 pm: Edit

I thinkyour missing the point PT.Surely everybody posting here is as passionate as you.What is so upsetting to some of us is the likes of yesterdays performance from Lawrence and why our manager failed to spot this.

By Mark W (81.132.56.173) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 01:56 pm: Edit

I thinkyour missing the point PT.Surely everybody posting here is as passionate as you.What is so upsetting to some of us is the likes of yesterdays performance from Lawrence and why our manager failed to spot this.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 02:37 pm: Edit

I always give credit where it is due. I like all true Walsall supporters want the team to win and i expect very high standards.
I can accept a team losing a game if they show 100% commitment and give thier all. They never showed that yesterday and it is completely unacceptable
I read CL'S after match comments and noticed that he said that it is very hard to win 3 games on the trot. Why is that the case then Colin and what ambition and confidence are you instilling in your players with negative statements like that.

By sj (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 02:51 pm: Edit

Two things seem clear to me following yesterdays game. Without the two loan players we lack: youth, power, pace and passion in the centre. Lee understands this and I think it frightens him- what will he do at the end of the loan spell?

Secondly, Lee is too indicisive, during the game it was clear to all that Lawrence was letting the team down. From watching Lee over the years his main weakness is making changes when it is too late; yesterday was a prime example of this. He needs someone with him that has the ability to think and make sound judgements in the "midst of battle". Lee has consistently failed to do this because he can't do it. Other than this and being a tad too defensive he is a good manager

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Dummie - You know something. You are a lying, negative individual.
You say "I always give credit where it is due". Well I would like to say that this is a LIE. Shall I tell you why? Well look at the thread on last weeks match against Wigan. You posted TWO SENTENCE post. So how is that giving credit where credit is due? We had just beaten a team who had not lost since the first match of the season, a team who had only lost 5 of their previous 65 matches and you post a response of TWO SENTENCES! Give credit where credit is due my f*cking arse!
Oh, and look at todays response, a detailed 17 SENTENCE response, because we lost.
Doesnmt that tell you something about yourself Dummie? It tells me something thats for sure.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 03:00 pm: Edit

You say Lee is a good manager SJ but you also say he is very indicisive.
To me mate a good manager has to have the ability to make a decision and see the picture of what's wrong during a game.
If you don't have that ability you can't even call yourself a manager never mind a good one.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.172) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 03:05 pm: Edit

Excellent post PT - Norwich without doubt put on the best performance against us from any side this season, and thoroughly deserved their win. Quite simply they were better than us, and why shouldn't they be with their much greater resources?

We'll never know, but I'd say we'd have struggled against them on that form even if Baird and O'Neill had been in our side.

I am still mystified though why Lawrence remained on the pitch so long, he was truly dreadful, those who've described him as "hiding" are spot on.

Also I'm another who doesn't agree with Jorge coming on for Vincent rather than Emblen. It's been said that we were losing at the time and trying to win the game; correct me if I'm wrong but I thought we were level at that time, and having loads of trouble containing Norwich. Holding on to what we'd got seems to me the better option, so to bring on Emblen would definitely have been my choice - after all Emblen has put in two or three MoM performances, both in defence and up front. He has greater physical presence, and could hold up the ball better than Jorge to help deny Norwich so much possession. In complete contrast Jorge has been a pale shadow of his former self and hardly instils confidence that he'll get a goal for us (though to his credit he had bad luck with that diving header).

I've read the explanations above and understand them, but I still firmly believe CL got this one totally wrong.

I'm still with PT though, OK we lost yesterday which is a disappointment to us all, but throughout the game I felt I was entertained by some very good skilful and imaginative football from Norwich, and a fair amount of effort and determination from (most of) our lads.

Credit where credit's due, and I'd also add that the Norwich fans again showed themselves to be some of the best anywhere with their great vocal support - they are the same wherever they go, even when their team falls behind.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 03:08 pm: Edit

Onto yesterdays game. I thought we were beaten by the best team we had played this season, who are currently riding high, and deservedly so, near the top of the division.
As Stu as already said, the movement and pace of Norwich was incredibly at times. Although I must admit I do not like the cheating tactics employed by a certain Mr Huckerby.
Thought Bazeley had a poor game. Lawrence was poor in the middle, and must not start on Tuesday night, I would much rather see Corica in this position on Tuesday. Also thought Samways gave the ball away a lot more than usual and seemed way off the pace of the game. Seems certain to me that once Samways has a bad game, the team as a whole tend to as well.
Birch played well up front and as shown a remarkable improvement over current matches. And yes bloodred, I did not like Birch, just like the vast majority of people on this board, glad you managed to just single me out, have you a problem or something mate?

By PT (213.48.242.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Mark, I honestly do not think that Colin failed to spot JL having a bad game, if after 30 years in the game Colin thought that Lawrence's performance was acceptable I'd be very surprised indeed. BUT the decison to play him would have been made soon after we knew O'Neill wasn't available and the team altered and trained around JL playing in his position. If JL had been hauled off after 20 minutes I'm sure we still would have lost but people would be bemoaning Colins lack of conviction in his own decision making espcially as in that time JL's only contribution did actually set up the goal. Half-time we're winning (somehow) do you change a winning team mid-match?
JL could only get better (you'd have hoped!)He gave JL another 20 mins and obviously by then it was too late, but that's easy to say now. At 1-0 Emblen for JL would have ben seen as negative, Corica for JL would have been seen as daft in the face of a continued onslaught. The fact he eventually took him off does suggest that he hadn't "failed to spot" JL's performance.
CL gets far more things right than he does wrong why can't everybody just back his judgement, enjoy their football and get behind the team (Bescot is awfully quiet these days), at least for the time being?

By Manchester Saddler (213.106.179.33) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 03:56 pm: Edit

PT and Sheff are spot on. C&D, you really irritate me because, as PT and Sheff quite rightly say, you are far too negative. I just knew we'd see a long vitriolic post from you after yesterday's result. As I've said before, we aren't going to win every game and sometimes we will come across teams who are just better than us - otherwise we'd be top of the league. Clearly that was the case yesterday - Norwich were better than us. Accept it.

Beating Wigan last week should surely give you an indication of what we're capable of, especially seeing how Wigan destroyed Palace yesterday. And of course there's the mauling of West Brom too. We've beaten the top two teams at home and, on our day, are capable of beating any team in that division.

So go on, C&D prove us all wrong and really give credit where credit is due next time we win. Otherwise, you run the risk of being seen as a blinkered individual who can't see beyond his misguided negativity. As somebody once said to you - change the record and people might listen to you instead of simply dismissing and ignoring your arguments as I am close to doing.

Come on!

By popperpancake (81.79.50.151) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Norwich were excellent i agree, but we were awful i thought. We allowed them to have as much time on the ball as they wanted, none of our midfield players bothered to track back, we gave the ball away thru awful passing or non-existent movement. Lawrence is a ••••••• disgrace. Anyone who wants to come on here and give me bullshit as to he's not fit, he hasn't had a pre-season etc etc can do, but his performance was as bad as any player i have ever seen play for walsall. I know this sounds ridiculous but i think in the entire course of the game he headed the ball about 3 times and barged into about 5 of their players. I don't think he actually kicked the ball. Seriously. My mate pointed this out to me after about 20mins, i then watched him until he went off. I can't remember him kicking the ball. Maybe once that i missed.

And Ritchie is a dumb •••••••. He deserved to go and now we will be without him again. It was very very foolish. Idiot.

I just can't understand why we can be so sluggish in some games. Annoys the •••• out of me. Anyway i assume i won't have to watch Lawrence on tuesday. If i do there is something seriously wrong.

I agree Norwich were the best team i've seen this year, but i was pissed off with our attempt to stifle them. We didn't seem arsed.

By popperpancake (81.79.50.151) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 04:11 pm: Edit

Id just like to point out im not all that negative despite the above post. I am just pissed off with lawrence staying on the pitch as long as did, and frustrated with our performance. The reason i think Norwich have got a poor away record is not because they don't always play like they did yesterday, but because most home teams don't allow them the freedom of their pitch to play as they wish.

By freda (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 04:39 pm: Edit

For the first time in my life,I saw a player not trying.Lack of ability is forgivable,lack of effort is totally unacceptable.

By ucow (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 04:48 pm: Edit

pgtips dont invite another idiot over as i have a big enough task telling you and cals a saddlers whats going on in the match so if its three i would never get to watch any of the match!

By sj (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 05:51 pm: Edit

Wigan were better than Norwich. Also in defence of C+D I get the feeling that many on this board have a considerable degree of "Blind Faith" Colin Lee is not the Saviour of the club he is just a bloke when C+D criticises him some of you round on him like religious zealots. Lee like all managers has his strengths and weaknesses yeasterday he was weak.

I know football is the new religion of the masses but please boys not so fundamental it's scary.

By David Potter (65.65.182.98) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 06:33 pm: Edit

PT and Sheff made some valid points.
I've been following Walsall for over 40 years and still don't know which Saddler's team will show up!

I'm not going to disect yesterday's game, that has been done by others. We were outclassed by a very good team - McVeigh was outstanding!
Obviously, if they played like that every week, they'd have the championship wrapped up before Christmas!
Norwich taught us a good lesson. They set the standard for us to aspire to.
We've made enormous strides over the last few years, and for a small club (we ARE a small club!)like ours, that's no mean achievement. I don't see any reason why we can't be at that level in the next few years! I know it takes money, but we've attained this level without it.

I'm going to make a comment about Lawrence, then I'll sign off.
Folks often say that the only consistent thing about Walsall is their inconsistency! No argument here. There is only one thing we are all consistent about and, we're ALL in agreement with; Walsall fans will crucify any player that doesn't try! We will forgive youth or inexperience, even lack of talent, but we will not forgive someone who doesn't try. Jaimie, you didn't try yesterday. You let everybody down. Your club, players, fans and hopefully, yourself!
If I were the manager, I would place him on the transfer list with immediate effect. His wages would reflect the amount he contributed to the game yesterday!

To all present and future players who have the priviledge of wearing our strip, all we ask you do to is try! If you can't do that, buy yourself a set earplugs because we will very quickly tell you that you're in the wrong line of work!

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 06:51 pm: Edit

You are dead right Dave Potter that indeed Jamie Lawrence should be put on the transfer list and should never play for the club again.
He conned Walsall yesterday, the fans, the team, the badge and the manager although to my astonishment Colin Lee actually patted Lawrence on the back yesterday for his pathetic attempts.
What kind of message does that send to his players.
For all you people that are suggesting that im negative, well im sorry guys but can you take a positive when half the team are not giving 100% to the cause. There is simply no excuse for not giving your all.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.176) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 07:37 pm: Edit

For once I almost agree with you c&d.

Certainly as far as Lawrence and the transfer list is concerned, he can go tomorrow for me and save his wages for someone useful. Problem is who'd want him based on such performances, and he has a contract that will cost us money to sever.

From my seat I couldn't see CL pat Lawrence on the back, but I think he would have done that more out of instinct than as a sign of approval. I doubt it would even have been noticed, let alone taken as any kind of message, by the other players.

Just one thing I find strange in your post is when you say "can you take a positive when half the team are not giving 100%". Lawrence is just one, not half of the team, and he certainly wasn't interested, but are you suggesting another four or five players were not trying yesterday?

Maybe I'm just taking you too literally, otherwise I would find that an extraordinary comment.

By LarryHaggler (81.134.101.3) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 08:00 pm: Edit

I think CL lost us the game yesterday with some very strange tactics.
first off he played Lawrence in the middle and osbourne on the right ? Well Lawrence is a right sided midfielder isnt he and Osbourne a centre midfielder.
Then after 40 minutes of chasing shadows CL has the chance to change the shape or the system at half time. But no he leaves on Lawrence who was havin probably one of the worst performances I have ever seen in a Walsall shirt in 25 years.
So instead of bringing Emblen on at half time, he then changes Vincent (through injury) and puts wrack at left back !
He could of moved richie there and bought on Emblen or Hay !
I probably would of bought Merse off as well.
Come on Colin except some responsibility.

By LarryHaggler (81.134.101.3) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 08:01 pm: Edit

Oh the sponsors finally got the MOM right.
Well done Gary Birch that performance silenced a few critics and didnt he look much sharper that Jorge.

By Cal's a saddler (81.131.132.104) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 08:10 pm: Edit

You do not tell me whats going on ucow coz u are usually to busy telling the grey haired one to be quiet!

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 08:14 pm: Edit

Dummie - Still have answered my post have you? You negative litle pr*t.
I bet it gave you great heart that we lost yesterday, so you can come on this board and contribute the usual load of cr*p you come out with.
2 sentences compared to 17 sums it up for me. You are a prize pill*ck. And should go back ti supporting the Blues.
Remember the IM you sent me on AOL, you lying little, good for nothing scum bag?
Go back to were you come from. Under the nearest stone.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 10:18 pm: Edit

Dummie, pr*t, cr*p, pill*ck, scumbag. Whatever next. A bit harsh me thinks for having an opinion.
I only gave a 2 sentence response of support last week due to the fact that i couldn't attend the game against Wigan, therefore my view on the game would have been totally uninformed.

Geoff, on the point of players not giving a 100%. I have no doubt that many of them were giving there all physically but mentally they were very slack. Inability to close down in vital area's.
Inability to attack and defend in numbers as a team unit. A laziness on tactical awareness.
There is a lot more to giving 100% than just running around like headless chickens. These players are experienced pro's.
They reminded of an orchestra without a conductor both on the pitch and off it.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 10:34 pm: Edit

Dummie - Pity certain fans dont give 100%!

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.175) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 10:39 pm: Edit

sj, don't know where you get the idea from that Wigan were better than Norwich. Wigan let us play, Norwich were far more lively, closed us down much quicker, fought for every ball, denied us possession, so that it was they and not us that were able to dictate the game, more or less from start to finish.

Almost every comment I've heard and read says that Norwich were, on the day, the best side we've come up against this season, and I totally agree with that sentiment.

As for your comments on C&D, it's clear he gets confrontation because he goes looking for it. We haven't got "blind faith" in CL as you allege, we simply have faith and respect, and many of us have said we hope and expect him to have things sorted and us comfortably holding our own somewhere in mid-table by the end of the year - Christmas has been regularly mentioned.

If that does not turn out as expected, no-one can then say he hasn't had a fair crack of the whip with his newly-assembled squad, and it may then be the right time for us to start talking in terms of a possible change.

Even then, I doubt it'll happen, Bonser is in charge and the soundings are that he is very much pro-Colin Lee - I doubt if the outcome of three or four months of results will be anywhere near sufficient to move him to an anti-Lee position - too many good things have already been achieved on and off the pitch for that to happen, and we should all remember that, instead of jumping on Lee's back every single time we lose.

In nearly every respect we are a below average side in Division One, most importantly in financial terms and with little prospect of adding to the regular fan-base, the only way that could change significantly would be if we were to get some sugar-daddy to take over, and we all know how unlikely that is!

So we are going to have to accept (or at least expect) that at least a third of this division will beat us more often than we will beat them. At least a further third will be a match for us as often as not. That leaves the final third, and if we can remain at the top of those we'll be doing OK at present. Anything better, say 15th upwards, will be an achievement worth shouting about.

Recognising this, I don't think we should get down-hearted or start slagging off the team or manager when we lose to better sides like Norwich - the exception yesterday being Jamie Lawrence of course for his total dis-interest - he was a disgrace and if he ever pulls on the shirt again it will surely be too soon.

C&D and one or two others will now probably come on saying I should have greater ambition than this - well actually I do - I'd love to see us at the top challenging for promotion or the play-offs. But I think we have to distinguish between ambition and expectation. I am trying to bring some reality to the expectations that some people have built up. Hopes and ambitions are OK, expectations have to be tempered with a suitable dose of reality.

So on to Notts Forest on Tuesday, Lawrence ought to be on his bike, Baird will be back, hopefully Redknapp will have let O'Neill come back, and Vincent's injury will hopefully not keep him out. So we might be at full strength with any luck.

Although Forest are in that category of teams in my top third, we do have a good record against them so I am hopeful we can carry that on. But if not, and we draw or lose, provided we have put on a good 100% showing, such a result ought not to lead to the same slagging off of CL that we have seen from some on here today, and we saw a few weeks back before we had our two wins over Reading and Wigan.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.175) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 10:45 pm: Edit

C&D, you still implied that half the team were not giving 100%. I have to disagree with that. 1/11th of the team was not giving even 25%, the rest I am sure were trying their best.

Despite giving 100%, they made mistakes, and a side like Norwich will and certainly did take great advantage of that, but with respect that is a totally different issue.

By sj (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 11:56 pm: Edit

Geoff I bet the price of a meal at a saddlers night-out next year that Wigan finish above Norwich.

As always you argue well with a weak hand. Indeed Geoff I see you as the biblical man with the withered hand, a modern Harry H Corbet. Emotion rather than logic is your style.

Blind Faith were the band that sould have mad it but never did like Trapeze

By Dave Roe (213.122.248.205) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 12:11 am: Edit

Got to agree about Lawrence, a total waste of space. Reminded me of Simpsons performance away at Stoke last season. I found myself cheering when Skippy replaced him (anybody who knows me will tell you how unlikely that is).

I readily agree that we were beaten by a vastly superior team yesterday. However yet again we seemed unmotivated, confused, uninterested and lacking any sign of energy. Yet again we retreated back into our third of the pitch and let Norwich take up residence. I'm fed up with these lame excuses of team pushing us back, they don't, they just take up the space vacated by our retreat.

I expect much more effort on Tuesday otherwise our hold over Forest will be in jeopardy.

By Aldridge Saddler (195.92.168.165) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 12:12 am: Edit

And to think Lawrence had the cheek to see what division we'd be in this season before signing his contract, cheeky b*****d.
One more thing, Sheffield, wish you'd take your feud with Coxandthingy elsewhere your like a man possesed.
i don't agree with all he says but this is a message board and we are all entitled to our opinions just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean you have to resort to abuse on here.
If you haven't learnt yet I guess he loves to wind you up and you bite every time.

By RightWingDing Saddler (217.44.83.105) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 12:39 am: Edit

SS has probably been over-celebrating the "coronation" of the blessed Michael Howard.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 01:10 am: Edit

Aldridge - Hes a BLUE NOSE. Slagging off our manager and players. You expect me to keep quiet!

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.165) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 02:48 am: Edit

SJ, I don't bet (as I have said before I ALWAYS lose) so I'm sorry but I won't take this one on.

If I did, Wigan probably WOULD finish above Norwich, and for me, on the basis of what I have seen so far this season, that would be an injustice. Norwich are the best side we have played this season, and by some considerable distance. Most reports I have read say the same, you are out on a limb, and I fail to understand how you can possibly claim Wigan were better.

You talk about MY logic, sj you must be on something tonight - you're logic defies belief. But YOU, we beat Wigan so you make them up to be some great side that we have overcome. We lose to Norwich and you refuse to admit they were better, preferring to blame our team for losing.

Much as I like you and we get on, you tell me I am not logical! Sometimes you really are priceless mate.

Yours is the logic of a fan who is upset by defeat and seeks comfort in downgrading the efforts of our team and the opposition, and who loves victory so much that he builds up the stature of the opposition to emphasise how great we were to have won.

Sorry mate, but this is utter rubbish!

I hope Norwich and their fantastic fans go on to win a place in the Prem. I won't do anything like taking a bet that might prejudice that.

Stop trying to analyse me sj, you can't, you don't know me well enough, and it's pathetic.

Credit where credit is due, an old cliche but very relevant after Norwich yesterday.

By JPD (203.18.34.5) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 03:45 am: Edit

Lee's man management when taking off Lawrence was quite correct.
Lawrence knows he had a shocker, Lee knows Lawrence has had a shocker, Lee pats him on the back and says "well done", but knows he has to either get rid of him or do a lot more work on him.
Nothing would be gained by b*llocking him in front of everyone.
C&D you know as much about man management as most other things you spout about on here.
Note too that Norwich have loan signings in key areas and will probably be abysmal when they go.
A lesson has been learnt lately however - always get your loan signings from Premiership clubs.
Good postings PT, stu etc.
Sorry - no Python references.

By sj (195.93.34.9) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 09:10 am: Edit

Geoff I think that with the three loan players we are a very good team and I think that we would have beaten Norwich had they played. Concomitantly we are a rather poor side without them- Now that is almost "Vulcan Logic"

Geoff I think I upset you with the way I used the word logic I was not trying to infer that you were illogical per se because you are not. In the back of my mind I was trying to say that you are an emotional man in touch with his femanine side and its that side of you that takes over. Because of this duality you give balance where others give only bias.(smiley)

Tell me Geoff were you an only child closer to your Dad rather than your Mother? Do you dream of being naked in the playground and do you see snakes just before you go to sleep?

By popperpancake (81.136.153.180) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 10:37 am: Edit

On the BBC website whenever they have a story about a particular team they include a link to the official website of the said club. The so called link to our official site is pointing at bloody watfordfc.com! It's been like this for ages. Good site the BBC website and it's good to see they take us seriously.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.172) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 11:23 am: Edit

sj, some of the things you write on here at times make me think you really are an absolute idiot mate. But more lkely you are just out to shock with your crazy ideas and rantings. As I said before, don't try to analyse me, you can't, and even more importantly you can't pigeon-hole me or people generally in the way you think you can.

But before I deal with your truly ridiculous questions, and at risk of being accused of stating the bl**din' obvious, I at least have to agree with you that we are a much better side with our loan players than without - but if that was not the case why would CL have signed them? But even with them we struggled at times against Wigan, and it was clear that the first goal could have gone either way - crucially it was the Saddlers that got it, and we gained the ascendancy from that. Had that first goal gone the other way, I have little doubt that Wigan would have gone on to win - but that's just my opinion.

In contrast, Norwich were different class, the first goal going to us was not so crucial, they came back at us incessantly with the usual vociferous backing of their brilliant fans, and should have been at least level and maybe ahead by half-time. I doubt if anyone was surprised that they came back in the second half to win the game comfortably, had we had the two missing loan players it would have been harder for them, but I still think on that form they would have beaten us - but again that's just my opinion.

So on to your manic rantings and questions.

"In the back of my mind I was trying to say that you are an emotional man in touch with his femanine side and its that side of you that takes over" - perhaps the best answer to that is "total b*ll*cks" sj, you are a clown of the highest order (and do please try to spell "feminine" correctly next time).

"Tell me Geoff were you an only child closer to your Dad rather than your Mother? Do you dream of being naked in the playground and do you see snakes just before you go to sleep?"

Just exactly what are you on sj, do you sniff it, smoke it, take it by tablet or inject it directly into a vein? - it has to be one of these!

But you obviously have a theory about me, and not surprisingly it is totally, abjectly incorrect.

"Were you an only child?" I take it I somehow demonstrate to that weird mixed-up mind of yours that I was. Strange how wrong you can be then sj (as usual) - I have two brothers, one older, one younger!

"Do you dream of being naked in the playground?" No sj, I don't, and I don't normally recall dreaming of anything. Do you have such dreams, is this where these crazy questions and suggestions come from?

"Do you see snakes before you go to sleep?" Again no sj, I don't, and before you ask nor do I see dinosaurs, nor alien beings, nor am I attacked by flies, bees, wasps, ants or other creepy crawly things, nor pursued by enemy soldiers wielding knives and guns chasing me in jeeps, planes or helicopters. In fact sj, somewhat unsurprisingly I see nothing weird before I go to sleep, I just close my eyes and that's it, totally boring for someone as loopy as you with your strange over-fertile imagination. Then a few hours later, amazingly I wake up, which normally means by then it's morning.

Analyse that! Although on second thoughts, don't bother, whatever you come out with will be even more of your ridiculous cr@p, same as before.

Now, having got that out of the way, anyone care to discuss tomorrow's match ?

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 11:36 am: Edit

What can I say that hasn't been said already (recovering from a very heavy night of drinking yesterday, so did not make it onto the PC!)!!

I'm with Geoff, PT and Stu on the quality of the opposition (Norwich definitely the best footballing side I've seen this season) and the status of Walsall FC and what we an expect from a club of our size for the foreseeable future, or until we get a sugar-daddy!

Lawrence proved exactly what I was saying about him last week - he is ••••, and I don't care if he does have talent or is capable of more, the fact that he put in no effort whatsoever means he is a •••• 'professional' footballer.

Defensive mistakes contributed to our downfall - the midfield and defence were like statues when Norwich approached our box - but make no mistake, Norwich were better than us all over the pitch so it was inevitable they would break us down eventually.

The change in personnel when Vincent went off was OK as (as it has already been pointed out) - the players concerned have all played competently in those positions before, but Emblen would have been my choice to replace Lawrence (although I would actually have started with Oakes).

But, that substitution came too late anyway and even if we had started with the absent players, I believe we would still have been beaten by a better side (maybe not as emphatically).

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Also, I have to say that the vocal support at Bescot (not the opposition fans - the men from Norfolk were superb) is embarrassing. Has the place ever been as quiet? I know footballers should always play passionately, but any of them will tell you that a big vocal backing is an extra spur. Even our away support is not up to it's usual excellent standards.

Maybe it's a symptom of having such talented players that the fans get complacent, expecting a performance, or is it that they are thinking that if the talent we have isn't producing, they may as well give up too?

Everyone on this board is passionate about their club on here and at games (I assume), and your opinions show that. But for those fans who take the quiet, passive approach at games - GET BEHIND THEM so they step up that one extra level in performance.

On CL - yes, he made a mistake not taking off Lawrence sooner and again is showing blind loyalty (a la Jorge), but this does not make him a bad manager - all managers have their failings, even Fergie. Never mind the players, what sort of prima donnas are some of our fans that they think we should be beating everyone week in week out. CL is doing the best he can with the (lack of) resources we have. I don't believe any player aside from Lawrence wasn't trying on saturday, but I know for a fact a lot of 'fans' didn't attempt to make themselves heard.

It's about time some Walsall fans woke up and 'smelt the coffee'. We are not a big club, we never will be. We have a small support, which means we have very little in resources as we live within our means, unlike the disgraceful behaviour of the likes of Leicester etc. (only one man has ever been able to feed 5,000 from 5 loaves and 2 fish!!). Why exactly do people think we should be pulling up trees in the 1st division? CL is doing one hell of a job with what he has, and if those fans I have mentioned had the same sort of vision/passion for the cause he has then maybe they wouldn't be living in cloud cuckoo land. He is re-building the playing side of the club from top to bottom so we do have a future at this level. If players who aren't up to it come and go, then that is all part of the journey. CL cannot be blamed for a supposedly talented player not producing for him. He will root out the dead wood and build a team capable of staying in the division for years to come. Rome wasn't built in a day, man Utd weren't built in one season.

So, quit whinging, look on the positive side more often and discuss the teams failings without slagging off the man who knows better than us how to improve things long term.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.165) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 12:35 pm: Edit

Absolutely! Well said Delves

By Stu (13.16.137.10) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Fully agree Delves.

Unfortunately, thats the downside that success brings. Our crowds have nearly doubled since the Sorensen era, so a lot of 'newer' fans have got behind the club financially (in terms of tickets) but are probably expecting success and instant return. That 'tribal' instinct isn't there anymore, for whatever reason.

I do wish this constant attitute of excessive optimism and pessimism would stop though.

We win one match and some people think the Play Offs and Top 10 are within reach. We lose one match and suddenly Lee doesn't know what he is doing, we'll struggle to stop up etc etc...

Its as though some expect us to win all 46 games, and if we don't, its the managers/players fault. The majority of the time, its coz your simply not good enough. Sometimes, its not that we play bad, its that the opposition don't let you to play to start with.

By Bristol Saddler (217.161.104.2) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Delves your post is superb and having only just been able to log on, it is perhaps one of the best posts I have read on here and echo's many of my previous posts!

To summarise Saturday:
POSITIVES:
(1) Birch - I have been one of his biggest critics and I have to hold my hands up and say he was superb on Saturday and thoroughlly deserved his goal and MOM.
(2) Walker - Kept us in the game as ever, with some brilliant saves.
(3) Norwich - Best side we have seen all season and if we are to be beaten, then lets get beat not by a dodgy ref, scrambled goal, but by a side who played us off the park and could have scored 5 or 6.
NEGATIVES:
(1) Walsall Fans - We were so quiet have we forgotten how to sing.
(2) Lawrence - A diabollical performance.
(3) Indiscipline - Yet another sending off.
(4) Referee - Sh*te all game.

As for CL, with the exception of sending Lawrence on for the second half, I thought he actually didn't have a bad game! I was sat behind the dug out and he was urging the team forward all match and lambasting the players for defending too deep. He sent Corica and Jorge on to try and get a result out of the game and although he left Lawrence on for far too long, I couldn't really see what else he could do. Personally I'd have put Emblem/Corica on for Lawrence at half time, but apart from that thought CL did okay!

To echo Delves comments, certain fans are forgetting we are a small club and to be frank have expectations above what we can achieve and we have to be realistic. The important thing is we bounce back tomorrow!

KEEP THE FAITH!

By Bristol Saddler (217.161.104.2) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Incidently C&D doesn't deserve our time in responding to yet another load of bollox he has posted!

By LarryHaggler (81.136.243.253) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Agree Delves I have been harping on about the lack of atmosphere at Bescot for months. Recently its got worse, someone mentioned to me that now we have 'shop a yob' scheme this could effect the vocal nature of the 'home' fans worried that some boring fart behind them does not like there singing (not on about racist chants either). I remember the great atmosphere at Fellows Park and I have to say Bescot has never surpassed that.

By popperpancake (81.136.153.180) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 01:28 pm: Edit

The atmosphere is terrible. I think we all agree.

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 01:34 pm: Edit

Thank you Bristol et al.

I ommitted to sing Birch's praises in my posts. He is getting better with every match now (Saturday was a very good showing). I too have doubted him in the past, so well done to him for proving me and other doubters wrong. Long may he continue to improve and we will have a very good player on our hands.

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 01:44 pm: Edit

Contrast the atmosphere at Bescot with the Leeds fans who stayed for the second half, with their team 4 - 0 down and sang their hearts out for the team.

By Dave Roe (217.37.14.235) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 02:26 pm: Edit

It's obviously a symptom of fans being spread throughout the Purple Stand. In times past if you fancied a sing/shout you headed for the top of the terracing behind the goal and conversely if you wanted a peaceful hour and a half you stayed away from that area.

Unless you've got a season ticket you sit wherever you are put. Which means there is no accepted singing area. I often fancy standing up and belting out one of our anthems but when you look around you, you see many fans that don't wish to join in and would be annoyed that you'd obstructed their view.

Anyway, I thought this on-pitch announcer was employed to whip the crowd into a frenzy ? I think we should show him the door at the same time we show it to Lawrence !

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.169) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 02:53 pm: Edit

I think you got all of that spot on Dave.

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 03:48 pm: Edit

Yep. Very true Dave. But we are supposed to be supporting the team, not just watching them and clapping politely. Ignore the miserable tossers around you and do execlty what you said - belt out a song or shout your head off in support.

By freda (195.93.34.9) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 04:21 pm: Edit

At the risk of being accused of heresy,does anyone think Merse took a dive in the box,second half.The Norwich fans,whom up to that point,had left him alone,certainly perceived it thus,and afterwards,gave him dogs abuse.During the lengthy break to treat their keeper,they asked him what the score was,but,with hands close to chest,he appeared to get it wrong,and indicated it was two apiece.Maybe someone in the WSS could confirm or deny.

I shall now,of course,only post on here,behind a false beard and moustache.

By Bristol Saddler (217.161.104.2) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 06:35 pm: Edit

Dave's got it spot on! Don't think the atmosphere has ever surpassed Fellows Park although it came close during the promotion years!

Problem is the singers are now spread out and also we have adopted a sing when we're winning attitiude and then badly!

We need to sort it out! A good atmosphere attracts fans and helps the team! Don't know how to and although I play drums do not wish to start one of those poxie bands off!

As for Merse diving! I saw it fairly well and dive is harsh but he was definately looking for it!

By Jorge14 (195.93.34.9) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Cox vs. Sheff...SJ vs. Geoff...when will this end? LOL!

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.170) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 08:47 pm: Edit

I think the former should have ended now thanks to your contribution over on the "Exposed" thread Jorge14 - if C&D has any defence left I'd love to learn what it is and see how much support he can gather around him.

But the latter, well who knows, I guess it'll go on as long as sj keeps trying to analyse me and talking total cr*p about me on here. But it's no big deal, off the board we get on great and will continue to do so, there's nothing nasty or vindictive in this, it's all just a bit of fun - well it is for me anyway, what about you sj?.

By JPD (203.18.34.5) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 04:05 am: Edit

Neil - you've been quiet while all around people lose their heads.
I feel for the Leeds fans - as the camera panned around the ground and you could see their expressions, I felt much sympathy.
Due to no fault of theirs their club is in massive, massive trouble.
There but for the grace of God and Bonser go us.
Who in their right mind will step in when Reid gets the boot?
Will they be the first club from the Premiership to fold?
The only solution is for them to "do a Leicester" and wave away their debts and start spending afresh.
I know the Leicester fans are human too, but I'll have a nice curry and a couple of Guinnesses when their club goes down and hopefully slides into administration again.

By sj (195.93.33.12) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 09:01 am: Edit

Geoff and it is for me. I have talk crap all of my life and I think I'm too old to stop now. And it's surprising where you can get by talking crap had I perfected the skill I could have been a politcian or a King.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.170) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 09:51 am: Edit

Well thanks for admitting it sj, I won't worry so much when you start referring to my "feminine side" in future !

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