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Sunderland (a) - League - 18th October 2003

Reports and reaction from the 2003-04 season as Walsall finished 22nd (R) in Division 1
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Sunderland (a) - League - 18th October 2003

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:36 pm

By Geordiesaddler (195.92.67.70) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 09:39 am: Edit

Ive designed a pro forma for Walsall match reports this season, just to save time.

It goes: Lots of pretty football, but little attacking threat.

Today's shuffle of the pack saw ....... dropped, and...... recalled.

Today's moment of awol defending that cost us the game against mediocre opposition was by.........

Today's cock-eyed official was Mr. ..........

So I reckon yesterday was Fryatt, Birch, (Hay or Ritchie?? I reckon more Hay) and of course the ubiquitous Mr Robinson.

Already seen the tv replays in the ground, and it was an appalling decision. At Millwall their keeper stayed on the pitch because he had defenders running back, yesterday Vincent (I think) was in front of Baird for the whole incident. Of course it wont be rescinded - but I reckon Mr. R will get a good slagging on Sky today - and he deserves it.

By sj (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 10:04 am: Edit

Mick McCarthy writes in this mornings Observer; "Walsall never looked like scoring. They were probably the worst team we,ve played this season. And there was no real atmosphere, so all in all, a pretty dull game, but an easy three points"

I think that about sums it up.

By ANoS (213.122.68.212) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 10:17 am: Edit

That quote above wasn't from McCarthy was it? Thought it was from one of their fans...

By Colin Dullard (64.12.96.231) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 12:27 pm: Edit

Dull football from a Dull manager defended by Dull people,the future is Dull Dull Dull.

By Jorge14 (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 01:25 pm: Edit

We've just entered the Creek and the paddle has just been dropped.

We're in trouble, big time. Was Fryatt injured? I was amazed not to see him play, and atmosphere and a stadium that a 17 year old would surely revel in.

Merson didn't even get onto the coach yesterday. Shouldn't a captain at least be on the bench when he was a minor injury? Or is it just convenient that Gazza is in town and Merse stays in the Midlands? (Oh, and for you Merse lovers, that was a joke, so no need to write a lecture).

How many strikers stay in the team after a 10 game plus scoreless streak? However inexperienced they may be, surely Bishop and Fyratt must be given a 5 game run. We can't miss the boat with these two like we missed the boat with Birch. Birch is, to be perfectly honest, nothing better than a carthorse at the moment. Good 2nd and 3rd division striker, no where near good enough for this division, and an embarrasment that he is playing for us. 2 goals in near enough 30 appearences is a disgraceful record. I asked the question yesterday, is he really that sh!t, or is he just arrogant. I'm starting to think it's a mixture of the two.

Yesterday, I paid £14.00 for the Supporters Club coach, and a further £17.00 to get in at Sunderland. Do the players, does Colin Lee, seriously think the "hardcore" supporters (around 250 of us) will carry on going all over the country to watch that dire performance? On the coach back from Sunderland I spoke to a family of 4, it cost them near enough £200 to get to the match yesterday...and last Tuesday Colin Lee said he wouldn't have paid to watch that performance. This should either serve as a kick up the arse to improve the performances, or a kick up the arse to pay back me, to pay back the fans who go to near enough every game.

£23.00 to get in yesterday for adults. Tell me, how many drinks could that have brought? Because let's face it, we all needed one after yesterday...

I've defended Colin Lee so far this season. He's got until Christmas, if we are in the mire then then he has two choices. Get out or move up stairs, because I'm sure he'd do much more good for the club as a Director of Football, where he could concentrate on the financial side of the club, than he is to the playing side.

I'm not saying sack Lee like CoxandDrummie is, but he is living on extremely shaky ground, and I'm beginning to lose confidence rapidly.

Oh, and I just saw the sending off for the fourth time, once live, once at half-time, once on Sky, and now again on ITV. Bob Hall said that there was no argument about it, I suggest he re-reads the rules of football and has a look at the tapes from the Milwall match. How can Tony Warner stay on and Baird go off when he has Vincent in support? Also, regarding ITV, its a shame they couldn't find a Walsall shot to show, because, although very rare, Birchy put a shot/cross inches wide on the half hour.

By ANoS (81.135.77.162) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 02:55 pm: Edit

Put Bishop in the side Jorge14? Are you mad? He couldn't even score in Division 3!

By Cal's a saddler (213.122.237.139) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 03:15 pm: Edit

I totally agree with you Jorge 14 about Central. How can Bob Hall say he deserved to go off? He could surely see that Vincent was there following behind and that Oster was going nowhere.
I thought we were a midlands team and therefore deserved a decent opinion from our own commentators obviously I was wrong.

By PortoSaddler (213.48.64.13) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 04:41 pm: Edit

McCarthy talks complete and utter garbage. Im not the only one to think so as Roy Keane seems to think so to.

Terrible decision by the ref. Baird clearly got the ball and wasnt last man as Vincent was covering. Worst team perfromance against us this season I think. They will stuggle on that evidence to make a play-off place if that. They were crap and so dull (One Dimensional).

As for us I thought we deserved something from the game and with 11 men on the pitch I thought we could well have after we had another encouraging start. Still, end product is obviously lacking. Fryatt needs a run in the side or even better sign a striker.
Dichio would have done a job. You put anything in and around the box and it's in the back of the net.

Onwards and Upwards

By PortoSaddler (213.48.64.13) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 04:43 pm: Edit

And as for Bob Hall.
What a twerp

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.170) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 06:05 pm: Edit

Reading the News of the World report today, they certainly very strongly back the view that we were unlucky to get nothing from the game.

Quote "it was tough on Walsall who looked the better side for most of the first half".

Quote "they were unlucky not to take at least a point here after battling bravely with 10 men in the second half".

I agree entirely with both of the above comments.

Mick McArthy quote "It was a hard earned, frustrating, scrappy three points. They came to frustrate us but we frustrated ourselves".

So he clearly didn't see it as a good peformance by his side. I'd agree with that too - they were poor.

Not sure about your comment on Dichio though Porto, did you see the Central Soccer programme today? He missed an absolute sitter with his head from 6 yards early on against Norwich. Then again, Scott Dobie missed with at least two others as well. Even so, I guess Dichio would be worth a try for us, surely we could hardly score fewer goals than we are now - could we? Wonder if CL has enquired about him.

By beechdalesaddler (213.48.83.130) on Saturday, October 18, 2003 - 11:43 pm: Edit

Well after being stuck on a coach for nearly 9 hours in total i was again peed off with the lack of efforts on goal. Apart from the two birchy made for himself i dont know if we could hit a cows arse with a banjo. Danny Ha'way, Darren Lazly, Simon Oshouldneverhavebeenborn and Jorge Lightao were all rubbish. One positive from the game, vincent looks a little better than Zigor, otherwise a pathetic effort. We really went for it didnt we Birch and Emblen up front with corica behind, we had pace for the last few minutes!
I loved the fans tune by the way (to the tune of O my darling clementine),
"Wheres the strikers", "wheres the strikers", "wheres the strikers, Colin Lee"
"we aint got none", "never had none"
"wheres the strikers, colin lee"
A classic!
Bottom 3 looms

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.172) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 12:27 pm: Edit

I think you are being very harsh Beechdale - I don't think many who were there will have thought this performance was as bad as you make out. Maybe it was that journey that got you so riled, I drove up there - 199 miles - 3 hours on the dot - and once we cleared the first couple of miles of slow traffic after the match, it took less than 3 hours back - very good roads all the way and very relaxed.

My first ever visit to Sunderland, lovely stadium, nice people, but on the day they were no more than a pretty average football team.

We easily matched them 1st half and the goal was against the run of play. We were comfortably keeping them under control until then, but as usual the lack of penetration up front meant we wasted a lot of useful looking moves, and it took just one error for us to be punished. Poor defending to let Stewart get the shot in as he took the ball across the box. Lots of us thought the move started with an offside, I hope to see it on TV today but they'll probably only show the last few moments as the shot went in.

The sending off was a crazy decision, which was just the worst of a whole load of poor decisions by a truly awful referee. He first awarded a penalty, then consulted the linesman when the players protested and indicated to him that he should, then gave a free kick outside the box. My question is, why did the linesman wait to be consulted? He obviously knew it was outside the box and could have indicated that straight away. So what if the Ref had refused to consult him, would he have just let the Ref's decision go ahead and us concede another goal to a wrongly-awarded penalty? Ludicrous!

We thought Baird played the ball, apparently the TV replay confirms that, so it probably wasn't even a foul, but even if it was, Baird was not the last man as Vincent was with him all the way. So on both counts it seems the Ref got it totally wrong, and it cost us - again!

With ten men the second half was always going to be tough, but as I said they were poor and they failed to get a second goal even with home advantage and the extra man. With a bit better contact, Birch could have got the equaliser late on with that toe-poke, but it was slightly under-hit and Poom was grateful to be able to drop on it.

We deserved a point from the game overall, but this striker problem really is seriously under-mining us, it's what's forcing us down the table. Just have to hope we get it solved soon or as you say Beechdale, bottom three looms. Our performances elsewhere on the pitch don't deserve that, but goals are the only thing that count in this game, without 'em I'm afraid we'll continue to look doomed.

By David Potter (65.66.220.37) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 04:53 pm: Edit

Good observation, Geoff. I heard the game on WM, they're summary was pretty much the same as yours. We worked very hard, were not outclassed, Baird harshly punished, didn't create enough chances and failed to score! Leaving Roper and Emblen on the bench, did not help our cause either!

I agree that we desperately need a striker, NOW!
Jorge cannot do all of the work up front, like he has been doing, without support. His work rate is excellent, but it's obvious to all that his confidence is shot. Birch does not meet the required standard. I hate to this of any player, but we have to face the facts. He's had numerous chances to prove himself and hasn't delivered the goods.
I know we looked at David Connolly earlier in the season, he's deadly up front! Just the type of player WE need! I understand the financial constraints we have, but sometimes one has to "bite the bullet" and invest in a proven commodity like him.

My biggest worry is that we are not creating enough chances. With the midfield we have, we should be tearing defences apart. For reasons yet to be determined, this task is proving to be very difficult. Until we can rectify this, it doesn't really matter who we have up front!

By ANoS (81.135.77.162) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 05:12 pm: Edit

Even if we could have matched West Ham's offer for Connolly (£300,000 I believe), who do you think he'd choose out of West Ham or us? Some people amaze me with their comments...

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.170) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 05:51 pm: Edit

I didn't think there was anything wrong with David's comments ANoS, I think maybe you've taken him out of context, I think he was "setting the scene" using Connelly as an example, rather than criticising a decision over the particular player. Of course I may have got it wrong, no doubt David himself can tell us.

It's quite true that we might not solve this striker crisis unless we can come up with some additional money to tempt someone here ahead of some other club. Take Akinbyi for example - if we could have put a bigger or longer offer on the table, he would probably have gone for it instead of Stoke.

If we don't do this, continue to struggle and end up going down to Div 2, ultimately where's the economic sense in that?

We have to think this through as far as the ultimate consequences and maybe, as David says, "bite the bullet". Maybe we can't do it, but if we don't, it's as plain as the nose on your face what the outcome might be.

By PortoSaddler (62.31.221.30) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 07:55 pm: Edit

I did see that miss Geoff it was shocking. I don't rate Dichio too highly but for what is available he can't be bad. He's no Akinbiyi or Connolly for that matter but at least he would give us some prescence in the box. Even though he misses sitters from 6 yards.

Onwards and Upwards!!

By Fish (81.132.177.53) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Given the tedious nature of our football, lacking pace, guile and anything else, I doubt if even Van Nistleroy would score for us. Strikers need service...it seems amazing to me that we pack the squad with (quality?) midfielders and it's in midfield that we seem to feg it up most of the time.

I'd love to find the quote, but I am convinced I read somewhere (before the season started) Lee saying that this season we would be playing bright attacking football, moving the ball upfield quickly, with pace. When does the season start Mr Lee ? the current style of football is cowardly dross, and will do nothing to bring in the punters.

We can almost guarantee to concede at least one goal in a game, so must set out to at least score two. Just how is that going to happen with the present system?

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 08:34 pm: Edit

Defensive errors. Midfield not creating. Strikers not scoring. Manager can't inspire players. Manager incapable of picking the same team. Players have no confidence. What more can be said.
It all looks doom and gloom doesn't it. I think the situation calls for a new manager NOW. In my opinion colin lee has lost the dressing room. Players are underpeforming to thier own standards. This is a classic sign of a manager unable to influence,motivate and install passion and leadership.
Im hearing excuses from certain fans who are stressing it's not all bad. IT IS. I heard a comment saying lee should move upstairs. This is a weak decision, been down that road with paul taylor. It just adds confusion and has no positives to it.
Colin Lee has had his chance and it's high time he went for the sake of our first division status.
The facts are clear. We are in the same position as we were when he took over while also having more financial backing than any other walsall manager in history. We are also playing in a league that is nowhere near the standard it was a few years back. He has also uninstalled a passion and desire that used to make us so proud to follow the saddlers.
Walsall football club need some fine tuning. They need leadership from the top ie manager.
COLIN LEE MUST BE SACKED A.S.A.P

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.177) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 08:43 pm: Edit

Could you put on another record please c&d, even good records get tedious after you've heard them a few dozen times.

By carlo saddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 08:43 pm: Edit

I think we should forget allocating any revenue we have to sign matt carbon and offload bishop,mathias ,wrack then utilize these monies to get a decent centre forward otherwise we are looking at another long hard winter in the bottom three.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.177) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 08:44 pm: Edit

Oh, and I meant to ask, were you at Sunderland yesterday, or is it much more likely you were at St Andrews today ?

By ANoS (213.122.184.89) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 08:47 pm: Edit

I apologise if I took DP's comments out of context then Geoff.

Drummie, some ridiculous comments there, which you call facts (ha!). Where do we start? Erm...

"We are in the same position as we were when he took over" I can't actually tell you where we are in the league now (19th I think) but when CL took over we were 23rd (22nd at best) and 4 points adrift on safety. Hardly the same position.

"We are also playing in a league that is nowhere near the standard it was a few years back" Many people seem to think that, but I'm not sure why they think this. When RG took us down, the likes of Tranmere, Grimsby and Stockport finished above us. Maybe the standard has dropped, but not greatly, and look around you Drummie... Rotherham (a strikeforce worth £300,000), Watford (signed Devlin for a 6 figure sum I believe). With CL's ability to sign good players on the cheap, I'm sure he could sign at least 2 good forwards for £300,000.

And your final point, not in any shape or form a fact, is that CL has had "more financial backing than any other walsall manager in history". You've seen the accounts I suppose? The squad is smaller in size for starters. The budget was reduced vastly during the summer, and the budget the season previously was one of the division's smallest. We are also living in a post ITV digital era, losing out on huge amounts of money. Yes he probably has had a bigger budget, but overall I don't think it's that much bigger.

Lets at least get behind the team and the manager for the three home games coming up... if we lose them all then I too will ask serious questions, but for the time being "Lee must be sacked" comments aren't helping anyone. We should be pulling together for God's sake.

Enjoy the game today Drummie?

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.177) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 08:51 pm: Edit

carlo, we could certainly do the first with Carbon, maybe even get a small fee, but aren't the other three on contracts ? I feel sure they are, so it's not possible to just offload them as you suggest. Unless other clubs come in with offers suitable to the players, they can stick around at Bescot picking up their pay until they reach the end of their contracts.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.177) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 09:05 pm: Edit

No apology necessary ANoS, never would be, but who knows, you may still turn out to have been right about David's post - won't know until he responds.

Good comments in your last post, if c&d is even remotely a Saddlers fan he should be falling in line with the rest of us firmly behind the club, CL and the team, ahead of these three vital home games. If we don't pick up over those games, I guess a lot of us will be starting to ask the same questions, but that's not for now.

By Surrey Saddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 09:23 pm: Edit

Not to worry lads. All being well I shall be in Reading on Tuesday. This will be the 5th time I have seen the Saddlers this season. The other games were WBA, Gillingham, Preston, Watford. Notice something- when I go we never lose. I expect it will be one up front on Tuesday (Jorge)but with Merse back and their good run due to falter it will be 3 points to us and our first away win. UP THE SADDLERS

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 09:31 pm: Edit

Are you a politician Geoff. You come across as a very able one, someone who can talk but not actually say a lot. To be fair mate you sound like a decent chappy but your opinions strike me as perhaps a bit nicey nicey.
You stike me as one of those people that watch a television pundit or listen to a radio commentator and follow their line of sitting on the fence.
Did you know they get paid for sitting on that fence geoff. When the camara's ain't rolling they are effing and blinding like the rest of us mate.
You do know that don't you. Niceness isn't really encouraged in football mate. After all it put Glen Roeder in a coma, there is simply no place for it. It's a ruthless business that requires ruthless (not nice people).
Talking of business. If Mr Lee is reading this i have a business proposition for you when you eventually and hopefully get the sack.
It will be something that will help many people and while helping yourself find your true role in life. It involves a tape recorder which i will purchase.
All you have to do is talk into it. Perhaps give one of your team talks.
Only then can the world be free of sleeping difficulties.
You could call it COLIN'S CURE FOR INSOMNIA

By woody walsall (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Well said Drummie when I want a good laugh I read what you say, the other should I say Saddler fans will agree with you soon

By Manchester Saddler (213.106.179.33) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 10:10 pm: Edit

I've asked this once before, C&D, but you seemed reluctant to answer. Who do you think would do a better job than Colin Lee given the resources he has?

By MRWHITE (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 10:39 pm: Edit

well said manc saddler!
GRRRRRR!!!!
i dont know how walsall managers put up with the flack at the bezza, what do the MINORITY of fans (who get easily fed up) want from the men in charge, im sure some of the underground dingles come out now and again and rear the ugly mugs. we are not chelsea, man u or any other rich bitch club and nor will we ever be as lucky as fulham. as much we all would like a mr harrods to come along, get real it aint goin to happen!!! if you cant be satisfied with what is going on at the club, go and do your whining and whinging down the hawthorns with all rest of the bag ladies..
can someone tell me why people get on bonsers back as well, lets just remind everyone 'their would be no walsall fc today without bonser and his so called tight wad board'. i'd like to thank the bloke, because i can go down the bezza and get away from the wife.
anyway heres to mid table security in may.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 11:09 pm: Edit

The question should have been " Is there a manager that could have done a worser job than Colin Lee" I would have really struggled with that one.
I have already gave my opinions on who i feel would be an appropriate appointment for Walsall but if you missed them Manchester, here they are.

There are only 3 choices that spring to mind who i beleive are available and affordable. All in my opinion would acheive top half status for Walsall if they were appointed soon.
My first choice is current Oldham manager Ian Dowie. I feel this man has a very bright future as a manager working wonders with a team who are struggling to stay in existence.
My second choice would be Steve cotteril. Here is a bright young manager with so much to prove just like Dowie. Did a good job with Stoke. Some may question his loyalty in leaving them to team up with Howard Wilkinson. It was a bad decision but one i feel he will learn from. The next job he takes will be crucial for him in terms of credibility as a manager, he knows that, and will perform under that pressure. He and Dowie have a fire in them, an ambition, passion and an enthusiasm to succeed. You can't buy that.
Third choice would be the return of Dave Merrington in tandem with Paul Merson.
Merrington was the key man in Walsall's survival and since his departure i see a downward spiral in spirit at Walsall. A great motivator who would benefit Mersons induction to management and would groom him for the job in future.
As for these men wanting the job. Well Dowie has taken Oldham as far as he can with the obvious restraints he has. He would come, no doubt.
Appointing cotterill wouldn't be a problem, he is out of work. The reason for this is because chairmen perhaps question his loyalty. I say give him a chance. After all he's learnt his lesson and he knows that he would be untouchable if he left the same way he did with Stoke again.
Merrington, not so sure. He may be getting on but he's a mans man who would get the respect of the players. Show him forsight and desire i think he'd come because he's a winner.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 11:20 pm: Edit

By the way i wouldn't have Merson working with Merrington just to allocate him. Ive always beleived he has the makings of a good manager. He has a charisma, something which err Colin err Lee err most certainly lacks.
Yes he's had his problems personally off the park but that will give him a humility. A standing point to say, yeah ive had my struggles but i will use that as a spur. He stikes me as someone that thrives on responsibility and players will respect and warm to him and would work well i feel with someone with the knowledge and wisdom of Merrington alongside him.

By Dave Roe (81.135.103.142) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 12:09 am: Edit

Fair play c&d. At least your latest posts set out your opinions with logical reasoning, which is not your normal confrontational style.

Can I pick up on a point that you made earlier Geoff ? You said "if c&d is even remotely a Saddlers fan he should be falling in line with the rest of us firmly behind the club, CL and the team, ahead of these three vital home games."

Without trying to pick an argument with a mate I would have to state my total disagreement with that comment. Why would anybody have to follow the views of the majority of fans in order to be classed as a true Saddlers fan ? I agree that every fan should try and do their bit to turn things round. But if their honest gut feeling is the club would be better off without the current manager then why should this view have them labelled has unloyal just because it's not the widely held view ?

I agree that c&d's posts have mainly being OTT but in general I agree with his sentiments. I don't believe that CL has got the ability to turn things around.

The squad appear to be confused, disillusioned and unmotivated. The quote after the Watford game was unbelievable. He said that he told the squad how to approach the game but unfortunately they took his instructions too literally !!! No wonder they're confused. They're thinking "does he actually mean what he has just said, or does he mean something else ?". I mean how can you take it too literally ? Good players play exactly the way they are told.

CL sends the team out with a game plan each week but seems unable to change it to suit the game or the tactics of the opposition.

We seem able to attract numerous midfielders and defenders (for cover) but appear unable to unearth a striker of any description.

As for the reports about us playing well yesterday, I think we're getting carried away by a bit of pretty football. It was sterlie and unimaginative. We've all moaned about Jorge's poor form this season but Thierry Henry would have trouble scoring with the "service" offered to Jorge.

I notice Colin did utilise the well known European tactic of running down the clock with a late substitution. Perhaps someone can tell him that it is usually employed by the team hanging on for the win.

I know I won't be popular but as a dedicated fan of the club I love I sincerely think that the best interests of Walsall FC will be served by parting company with Colin Lee.

By PGtips (194.117.133.182) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 12:10 am: Edit

The position of CL is becoming a real issue and will become even more of an issue after the 4 games coming up - all against teams pushing for play offs.

There is no doubt that we have the most talented squad of individuals probably ever at Walsall. There is no doubt that the manager is consistently failing to get the best from them. The last time this happened (Fat Jan) Bonser published an obituary in the programme and sacked the man by fax two days later. He does not tolerate failure.

Somehow I do not to see this happening this time around. Bonser has made many public comments about his respect for Lee. There have been improvements to the clubs infrastructure at Lee's request which we as fans do not necessarily see. Bonser does however. A few weeks ago he offered the man a new contract.

In this weeks Argus there is an article about the strategy meeting held by Bonser and CL recently at which they made contingency plans for the clubs possible relegation. A five year recovery plan was discussed. My reading of this is that Bonser plans for CL to be here for the future regardless of our league position. Bonser trusts him and respects his overall knowledge of the game. We are all starting to despair but talk of the next few games or until xmas is irrelevent I think - the evidence suggests CL is here for the long haul.

By Dave Roe (81.135.103.142) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 12:21 am: Edit

Well Bonser must be seeing a lot more than us fans can see.

A lot of the arguments put forward to defend Lee are along the lines of "He has assembled the best squad we have ever seen". To me that statement equally strengthens the opposite argument. Surely a competent manager with WFC's best ever squad should be leading us towards our best ever season ?

By beechdalesaddler (62.31.216.64) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 01:07 am: Edit

I agree Colin Lee's time should be up. Ive had enough of his constant droning why we lost this game and that one. Ill tell you Colin, because the players you have brought in dont understand a f***ing word you say because your always changing your mind. Your man management is as bad as Glenn Hoddles and youve lost the dressing room. We need a striker so you go and get a defender. We need a goal in the last ten minutes at sunderland so you take a striker off and replace him with a midfielder. If colin didnt tell his players to be so negative in the 2nd half we would have 17 points this season (thats how many points we have until half time) we have lost 4 points through his tactical naivity. I for one will be glad to see the back of this bloke, with Dowie or cotterill takin over before they are snapped up by another club.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.167) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 01:49 am: Edit

C&D, nice (?) of you to say those things about me, but honestly look in a mirror mate. You accuse me of talking but not saying a lot - well you've talked a lot lately and for me you've said one thing only - sack CL

But finally, to your credit (and I agree with Dave Roe here) you have finally today come out with a fairly reasoned argument and put forward some alternatives that may be credible. If the next few home games turn out badly, we may all start to seriously doubt CL and look to a change, and at least you have now finally argued your corner instead of ranting on with all those simplistic rantings of "sack CL".

I am still not at that stage yet, maybe I am an over-patient man, but everyone has their breaking point and I'd have to admit after yesterday, when once again we should have got a point, that mine too is getting closer right now.

As for your post Dave, you know I respect your views and I accept entirely what you've said above, and I also agree with most of what you've said, but think you maybe misunderstood what I was trying to say. So to maybe explain a little better, firstly accept if you will - because we all must - that CL is not going to be sacked in the foreseeable future - want it or not Bonser ain't gonna do it - so the best course of action right now IMHO is to support the club from the top to the bottom, and I especially mean during games.

My worry is that the c&d attitude will spill over into actual matches, calls from the crowd for CL's head etc. and in our position I don't see that as being in any way constructive when what we really want and need is for the team to win matches. Unrest in the crowd spills over to the players and affects performances, so must be undesirable.

That's what I meant when I said we should all align ourselves behind the club, CL and the team - while they're out there on the pitch they need us to get behind them, we are an important part of the game and can draw greater efforts out of players by the way we demonstrate our support. I think this is vital, if you think that's wrong then I would really fail to understand such an attitude. I've seen at first hand that you're a passionate supporter like me, so I feel sure you'll understand what I'm getting at.

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 09:01 am: Edit

On the other hand, start asking yourselves if you over analyse sometimes. Jorge14, a very level headed young man normally, earlier on posted this: -

"Merson didn't even get onto the coach yesterday. Shouldn't a captain at least be on the bench when he was a minor injury?"

Are we really expecting someone with a groin strain to spend 4 hours each way sitting cooped up on a coach, just to watch a game? Not a very good idea, methink.

By Surrey Saddler (195.93.34.9) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 09:13 am: Edit

Well said Geoff. 3 points on Tuesday and all will be forgiven. I am sure if Lee could get a half decent striker our performances will improve overnight. He must know this. Also, there MUST be one out there somewhere. What about in the lower divisions or even the Conference. Is our scouting set up able to sort this out??

By LarryHaggler (81.134.101.3) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 09:34 am: Edit

Just got back from Newcastle & Sunderland where I have spent the weekend since arriving back off a 2 week holiday in the sun.
I cannot comprend the fact we have not signed a stiker. Another defender, in fact if we sign Carbon that will be 2 more.
Sunderland goal was offside and a what was Mr Hay doing. Cant we send any of these mediocre players out on loan - Hay, Bazeley, Wrack, Mathias, Birch, Aranadle then sign a Striker. Also dubious sending off to me, I thought Baird took the ball and he was not the last man.
We did deserve a point, but Colin you have to push forward generally to score, we also seem to have a problem motivating dont we Colin.
Anyway another £300 spent this weekend and I'm just about had enough, and the song was - Sign a striker, colin lee.

By Bristol Saddler (217.161.104.2) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 10:25 am: Edit

Coxanddummies how was the Derby mate?

Do you reckon we should offer Francis a contract?

By Stu (13.16.137.10) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 10:50 am: Edit

I'm not going to respond to the thread, but I will pick up on one point Geoff made.

"Take Akinbyi for example - if we could have put a bigger or longer offer on the table, he would probably have gone for it instead of Stoke. "

Akinbiyi has PUBLICLY admitted that our offer was better than Stoke's in terms of the contract offer. The reason he chose Stoke by his own admission was (a) his link with Tony Pulis at Gillingham AND Bristol City (b) he enjoyed the time he spent at Stoke last season and the support that their fans gave him.

We can only do so much. We made offers for Junior, but Derby were paying him twice as much. If we'd matched that, how do you think Walker, Merson et al would have felt? Dressing room dis-harmony.

We had Bothroyd in the bag, until Perugia came along.

There isn't much more that Lee can do in terms of a striker. He has pushed the boat out financially and we still can't get them, that is because of the size of the club.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 11:48 am: Edit

I don't get your argument Stu. On the one hand you are saying we offered Ade Akinbiya a better offer than Stoke and on the other you are saying we are strugglin to get someone in because of finances. you seem to be contradicting yourself.
You also make a point that we had Bothroyd in the bag until Perugia came along. These are weak excuses Stu mate. It's the managers job to sell the club and to convince these players to come for the good of thier career.
Where does the buck stop. Your argument is like saying "we were winning 1-0 but the opposition scored 2 in the last 5 minutes, what can Lee do about that"
It don't make any logical sense to me mate.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 11:57 am: Edit

As for you Bristol, your case that im a Blues fan is weak and discredited. As Dave Roe so rightly put it, why would i spend my time discussing the saddlers if i supported that scum down the road.
That silly tale is just a fabrication. I support the saddlers, always have and always will.
Instead of making these needless comments why don't you respond to my 3 choices for the next manager and have a real debate.
Id also like to hear from other fellow saddlers on who they think may be good men to appoint

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 12:02 pm: Edit

They probably don't fancy playing for a club with so called fans like you.

By popperpancake (81.136.153.180) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 12:12 pm: Edit

What formation did we play?

By Bristol Saddler (217.161.104.2) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 12:33 pm: Edit

Dummie you make me smile! You have only ever made two good/constructive posts on this site in your life (both of which I acknowledged) and the rest has been an absolute bag of sh*te!

The reason you you spend your time discussing the Saddlers, whilst still supporting the Blues, is because your clearly quite sad, lonely and bored!

Moreover the Blues probably don't want you on their site, no more than we do! So p*ss off and support Stoke!

By Stu (13.16.137.10) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 12:33 pm: Edit

C&D, my point is perfectly clear, its a shame you can't read.

Just where exactly did I say that we are struggling to get someone in because of finances?

I said, Lee has pushed the boat out financially and offered players good wages, better than similar clubs offered, eg Stoke.

Then, when competing with the likes of West Ham (Neil Mellor), Norwich (Crouch & Huckerby) they can offer to pay a larger percentage of the wages that we can. Therefore, the parent club will be more inclined to loan to them.

Its not Lee's fault that we don't have any money.

As for Bothroyd and Perugia. Let me put this really clear;

Two options
1) Playing for Walsall, a decision he was obviously keen on.
2) Playing in Seria A, against AC, Inter, Juve, Lazio et al. Playing in the UEFA Cup, if you didn't notice Perugia are in the UEFA Cup.

I refuse to believe that any manager could convince a player to take Option 1 ahead of Option 2.

It makes perfect logical sense if you use your nous. Lee has offered the most that the Chairman will let him spend, Lee has offered (in at least 1 case) more than the opposition club offered. It is not a question of him failing to attract the players, may I remind you he somehow convinced Vinny Samways to commute from Marbella to play for Walsall. He convinced Emblen to sign despite him being offered more cash elsewhere, Walker re-signed, Merson signed (he may have wanted to be near his home, but he wouldn't have signed for the sake of it).

I don't see where the problem is, quite straight forward to me.

By Delves Saddler (82.37.160.61) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 12:53 pm: Edit

Good to meet you Joe90 and Geordie Saddler - two more faces to names.

Missed you again Geoff!!

I was tearing my hair out before the game even started yesterday - Matty Fryatt - why oh why was he dropped? He did well at Watford (considering the lack of chances) and was replaced by Birch??!! We have talked about how an unsuccessful run in the team may dent his confidence, but dropping him after one game is going to do more damage (unless he was injured, of course).

It was a dull game the main reason for this being the lack of opportunities created. But this couldn't be avoided in the second half due to the dubious sending off.

However, based on the first haf performance, the opportunities created from midfield were few and far between and this is becoming a problem just as much as the goalscoring problems. Would Merson have made a difference? I'm not so sure. (I am fed up with the performances of Lawrence - waste of space again). I can't wait for Samways's return.

One of Jorge's better games in terms of his positioning and not tracking back too much. But the chances never came, so who knows what he could have produced (with Fryatt) if they had.

By Delves Saddler (82.37.160.61) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Incidentally, I am sticking behing CL - I firmly belive that results will come and will continue to give him my full backing on here and at matches. With the right team in place (suspenions and injuries have been a factor so far) and the eventual improvement in fire power (be it Fryatt and Jorge, Jorge and ANOther, Fryatt and ANOther) we will climb the table.

By Bristol Saddler (217.161.104.2) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 12:58 pm: Edit

Dummie - In response to your question?

Dowie -West Ham didn't want him so why should we, also still feel he has a bit to prove, but potentially one for the future!

Cotteril - Don't know enough about him to be honest (so please enlighten).

Merrington - Didn't he leave to be closer to home! Would like to see him back alongside CL, but can't see it.
==================================================
Lee - Personally I would like Lee to be given to mid-December to turn things around! We can all rest assured that CL will be as p*ssed off with the situation and the performances as we are! Are you really suggesting he's got his feet up at the Bescot, eating balti pies and not giving a sh*t!

I'm sure he's as p*ssed off with the lack of strikers as we are, I mean exactly how many strikers has he tried to sign since the summer either permanently or on loan and for some reason he's had no luck. Now thats either down to cash, down to the club or down to CL himself! Now if CL can attract Samways, Merson et al, then he's got to be pretty good! So lets just give him the benefit of the doubt for once and say it aint his fault and that he's still trying!

As for results! Yes they are disappointing, (and I wasn't at Sunderland but will be at Reading), but from what I can gather, we had a player harshly sent off, conceded a goal that was possibly off side and if Birch could finish could have rescued a point with 10 men, away from home to a relegated Premiership side, managed by a World Cup manager!

The bottom line is yes our away form is sh*te and yes we desperatley need a striker or three! But would another manager necessarily change that, also we'd have to pay compensation to CL and any decent manager would cost us more cash, which we aint got!

Yes CL needs to get more out of this team and yes he need to motivate and stimulate! But the players need to take some of this responsibility themselves! You telling me that Walker aint motivated???

Lets get behind CL and give him to December and if we aint improved, I'll be on here with me hands up joining the CL OUT brigade!

One other thing we are only 6/7 points away from the likes of Cardiff and Forest, two good strong sides who have invested and have quality in depth! So lets not panic just yet!

Personally I think some of us Saddlers got a bit carried away after signing Merson and thrashing the Baggies, thinking we were playoff contenders! But ultimatley I always thought we'd struggle again and my ambition for this season was to be mid-table and safe in March! Thats not because I don't dream every day of stuffing the Baggies in the Premier Playoff final, but because I am realistic. Cash is a bit like Strikers at the Bescot and CL cannot be blamed for that!

Keep the Faith!

By Delves Saddler (82.37.160.61) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 01:01 pm: Edit

And, as Stu points out, if he can persuade Merson, Samways, Emblen etc. to come here, he clearly has some motivational skills. Don't believe that the man you see on camera is the one the players see in the dressing room.

The team will gel when they play together for a lengthy, uninterrupted period.

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Popper, it was 4 4 2, with Bazeley in his old Dingle position wide right.

By the way, on the subject of Dowie, hasn't a certain Blues fan noticed he's got a job? One he has had for two years or more and they are still not promoted.

By Ian Gittins (213.165.1.175) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 01:07 pm: Edit

We played a straight 4-4-2, which I think was a mistake: I'd have gone 5-3-2, with Emblen at the back: I think he holds the defence together well.

Having said that, I saw the Watford and Sunderland games last week, and we were loads better on Saturday. There was far more effort, shape and conviction, and we had the best of the first half. The sending-off looked underserved and was very harsh.

Bizarrely, our midfield looked better without Merson on Saturday. O'Neil and Osbourne both worked their socks off and looked very sharp and committed, as did Bazeley. Lawrence was a little peripheral, but had good moments.

Jimmy was stupendous, as he so often is, and the defence did mostly OK, but the glaring problem is (quelle surprise!) still the absence of a decent striker. Jorge is second to every ball and at the moment, sadly, looks ponderous. Birch is a real disappointment. There seems no mercurial flash or instinct there - he gets the ball. Clunk. Traps it. Clunk. Looks up. Clunk. If he still has the ball at this point, he tends to try a random, hopeful little dribble which goes nowhere. If he has potential, it's well-hidden right now: I'd have given Fryatt another game. Or Corica, who has looked good upfront in flashes.

So yes, we need a forward, but I can't join in the applause for the lamebrains singing "Sign a striker, Colin Lee" - what do they think he's been trying to do since July?! We've gone for Junior, Akinbiyi, Huckerby, Crouch and countless others. Deon Burton didn't work. Whatever Lee can be accused of, it's not lack of effort in this particular area.

There's a bit of a kangaroo court buidlng up here and we should nip in the bud. A notorious section of Walsall's fans will never be satisfied with anything, and will doubtless soon turn their beery attentions to calling for Lee's head at games. It would be a mistake. Saturday showed us a good team, well-organised, lacking only strikers. Stick with it. It'll turn around...

By Bristol Saddler (217.161.104.2) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 01:14 pm: Edit

Mr Gittins! Let me shake your hand!

By Dave Roe (217.37.14.235) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 01:36 pm: Edit

I understand you now Geoff. The way your post read last night was that you were questioning the loyalty of anyone who thought the club would be better off without Lee. I did think it was strange that you were making that kind of statement. Perhaps I read it wrong (it was late).

I agree that once inside the ground we should all pull together. I cannot, however, see the problem in fans voicing their concerns in the pub after the matchor on these messageboards. We all have the same aim as each other i.e. the continued improvement of WFC. We all need to keep in mind that we all have differing views on how that should be achieved.

Thankyou for calling me a passionate supporter, that was kindly put. On reflection I was obviously a bit OTT (especially considering the close proximity of PC Plod).

Did anyone else think the stewards were a bit heavy handed ? A bloke behind me committed the terrible crime of lighting up a fag. The next thing a steward has grabbed him on the shoulder and told him it's a non-smoking stadium and if he lights up again he will be ejected. I never saw any notices or heard any announcements about smoking. That kind of attitude could easily cause trouble if directed at the wrong kind of person.

So much for the big announcement about the club having a zero tolerance policy on racism. Throughout the match both sets of fans were singing that bloody Pope song and not one steward or copper batted an eyelid.

By popperpancake (81.136.153.180) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 01:53 pm: Edit

Who played left side of midfield?

By Alan (195.74.100.165) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 02:09 pm: Edit

How long have we got to 'stick with it' for Ian? Until we're in the second division perhaps?

I've come to the worrying conclusion that even if we sign the missing forward, it won't make a bit of difference. We're not creating anything!!

Once again the opposition keeper had his easiest game of the season - one useful save and a few simple catches.

You talk about us having a notorious section of beery fans. Well let me tell you, there is also a quiet section of fans like myself, who don't shout abuse at Colin but are becoming increasingly frustrated at his management style.

Talk to people at the games and you might be surprised at how many people are running out of patience.

Oh and Neil, your judgement of Iain Dowie is very harsh. The guy has virtually had to sell a complete team in the summer and has still got Oldham playing attractive, effective football. Ask the Oldham fans what they think of him..

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 02:11 pm: Edit

And they still didn't get up with that team he had to sell in the summer, one which cost so much the club couldn't afford it. The main point, however, was that he has a job, just as we have a Manager. It's pointless speculation.

By Dave Roe (217.37.14.235) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Alan. Haven't you realised that we are all supposed to sit there grinning no matter what goes on ?

Afterall we are punching above our weight and anybody who moans about our current plight is labelled has a negative supporter who would be happier if we were in the third division.


By Ian Gittins (213.165.1.175) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 02:37 pm: Edit

Dave Roe,

Nobody is suggesting you should be a Stepford Fan. Too much negativity is contagious, however, and gets to be a habit, and it's unfair to criticise Lee for not bringing in a forward when he's tried to do exactly that for weeks and been outbid by clubs willing, or able, to pay more. A simple fact, surely?

By LarryHaggler (81.134.101.3) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 02:42 pm: Edit

Yes Dave Roe - I agree with the heavy handedness of the Police not the Stewards. In fact the Sunderland fans had warned us prior to the game how bad there coppers were, and they were upfor nicking anyone for very wavivg etc etc, but not as you say Racism. Myself and a few pals plus the 6 Abredeen fans (Top Lads) were spoken to by the northumberland constabulary then amazed as they watched and followed us for the rest of the game.
Rather spolit my weekend. Although the Makems and gordies as ever were first class all weekend.

By Geoff Whiting (80.177.14.124) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Understood Dave, it's easy on here sometimes to write things down, but the kind of expression and emphasis we put into speech doesn't come across in writing so the meaning can be lost or misunderstood - I'd guess we've all experienced the same from time to time.

So when I said we should all get firmly behind the club, CL and the team ahead of these three vital home games, I was not suggesting anyone was being disloyal, but I was very mindful of what we had just witnessed first hand at Sunderland, and worried about the effect on tbe players and CL himself if the kind of chanting like on Saturday ("Where's the strikers" etc) should break out around the stands at Bescot. I think that could have a very negative effect on the players and CL, though some "supporters" don't condsider the damage they can do by these sorts of actions.

One thing for sure though Dave, since you and I and a number of other regular posters have got to know one another personally, I doubt if any one of us could or would ever accuse another of being disloyal to Walsall FC - we all have the club in our blood, that's for sure. So yes, I called you passionate, I meant that very sincerely and I assure you it's praise, not criticism.

I'm with you about the policing and stewarding at The Stadium of Light, the things that went on around us were very OTT over issues that were at the most very trivial, and certainly these issues were not confined to the away section but it was only our fans that seemed to receive the warnings.

Generally a good day out though, despite the disappointing result I think we can take heart from the performance especially in the first half, which I thought we dominated. The sending off was blatantly wrong and no doubt changed the course of the match, though with our feeble front line, whether it actually changed the outcome is another matter that we can only guess at.

By PT (213.48.241.4) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 06:11 pm: Edit

Oddly enough, due to needing 4 changes to get the train back from Sunderland (to L'pool)on Saturday I went to watch Oldham at Tranmere with an Oldham supporting mate. Despite losing to inferior opposition and squandering a one-goal lead the 1500 Oldham fans were magnificant and despite having just cause, never once got on the players backs. OK, Oldham fans have good reason to be loyal and united at the moment but these people were watching top flight football not so long ago and now are watching comparative dross (the Sheriden brothers making Merse look Rees-esque).
After the game the Oldham fans I was with couldn't believe it when I told them that there was a growing clamour for our manager's head and that many of our own fans disliked the board/owner. The lads I was with could name around 9 of our squad, I struggled past three of theirs. Just an indication of our current comparative profiles. One of them made a fair comparison with Stockport who's supporters forgot just how well they did to compete with far larger clubs, got onto Andy Kilner's back, got him the sack and have now suffered setback after setback to the point where a drop into the third could happen.
"If Walsall fans can't support their team now, what's the point?"
"You must have some right to55ers following you"
were just two of the comments.
Outsiders views yes but pretty fair feedback in my opinion. I didn't dare tell them of C&D's "this league is there for the taking" for fear of further ridicule.
It'll click right soon.

By ANoS (213.122.131.6) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 06:41 pm: Edit

It's one thing worrying about our league position and questioning CL on the forums, but sadly, at home anyway, we've become a "sing when we're winning, moan, groan and give up when we're not" side. I sometimes think that rather than watch an average game and win 1-0, supporters of our team like to see us playing badly just to have a grumble. We seem too quick to jump on people's backs. I'm not saying that the fears of fans on here aren't merited, but there's too many supporters who are starting to carry this on at the match, rather than get behind the team and even the manager. CL isn't going anywhere (touch wood). And if the song that appears to have been doing the rounds at Sunderland gets an airing at the Wigan game (where's the strikers Colin Lee?) I might be forced to give some supporters a piece of my mind.

It's even more annoying when the person posting the stuff about Colin Lee deserving the sack appears to be a Birmingham City fan!

By Cal's a saddler (81.131.18.111) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 07:14 pm: Edit

I have to say I had a good day. I visited the Angel of the North first, then had a ride on the Metro. Watched England beat the boks with saddlers and Sunderland fans who I have to say were very friendly. They did say the stewards wouldnt allow anything from our fans. But I was still disappointed that standing was so frowned upon from us yet their fans got away with it!

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.177) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 09:11 pm: Edit

And I got to spend a bit of time in Cal's company, which can't be bad, worth the three hours each way any day !

By Jorge14 (195.93.34.9) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 09:13 pm: Edit

Point taken Neil. I wasn't aware of Merson's injury yesterday, so yeah, I totally agree with you there. Not an ideal situation to put a man in!

I have to say, that C&D is starting to win me over a little. However, when it comes to his choice of managers to replace Lee, well, to be honest, a little short of shocking! Well, not that bad, maybe equivalent to Ozzie's up and down season!

Cotteril, is, in my opinion, nothing but an over rated, arrogant manager. Certainly, he did a great job at Cheltenham, but he isn't proven at a level higher than Division 3. Another Graydon I feel.

The same applies to Dowie. Unproven, but yes, a bight manager. I wouldn't think either of the above could do a better job than Lee at the present time, certainly with our squad.

Merrington, however, is a different fact altogether. He is, in my opinion, a better man to have at the helm at the moment than Colin Lee. That doesn't mean get rid of Lee, but ever since Merrington left, Lee has been missing something. Merrington had the vision that Lee shared for our club, I'm sure he'd jump at the chance to come back. Halsall obviously has the players, but isn't a good enough tactician to help Lee in the First Division. Also, Halsall prefers working with the youth team.

Cal, thats the "Big Club" mentality for you from the stewards. I question how 25, 50 at most fans standing up will cause a health and safety problem. It just doesn't make sense when just metres away, 500 Sunderland fans are on their feet for 90 minutes.

By Dave Roe (81.131.191.196) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 09:30 pm: Edit

That's it ANoS, you let them know that the only opinion tolerated at Bescot is the one you agree with.

I'm not saying I will join in with any anti-Lee chants (especially before or during a game) but I definitely won't be telling fellow fans how to think.

By ANoS (213.122.26.23) on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 09:52 am: Edit

But what's the point in singing to Colin Lee about the lack of strikers? These supporters seem to think they're the only ones who can see that we need another centre forward. I'll just try to explain to them, as I have done numerous times on here, that CL and the club have worked hard to bring in a striker. I don't see that as telling them how to think, just pointing out that their song is ridiculous and they could use their energy backing the team, rather than moaning and groaning and having a pop at CL.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 10:19 am: Edit

Im afraid your wrong Anos. Everyone has the right to freedom of speech irrespective of their opinion.
If you went into Sainsbury's and spent 30 pound on food only to find out that it was all stale when you got home, would you be singing thier praises, no of course not.
Why should i take your view when im sitting there seeing a man totally dismantle a team that i spend hard earned cash to watch.
I do it because i support them and want them to do well and if my support means that i call for lee's sacking then in my opinion it's better served than yours.
Some may say it will affect the team, i don't agree with that but if it does then im still prepared to do it. This is because if by speeding up Colin Lee's departure through fan power we can give Walsall a brighter future, i will walk that path. It's a 1 step back 2 step forward scenario.
I have always hold the beleif that if you go into games and consistently feel that your team will lose this is the clearest sign that a change is needed
Im sure many of you feel we will lose tonight, personally i have no doubt. I dunno about you lot but i don't want to feel like that anymore.

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 10:26 am: Edit

There are no certainties in life and even fewer in football, which is why I cannot agree. One thing I will point out, however, is that, by constantly carping on about the Manager, all you are doing is driving people into a more and more entrenched position, so fans are defending him now, who might have been questioning him. What you are doing, unless, of course, you are secretly not a Blues fan, but a Lee supporter using reverse psychology, is completely counter productive to your stated aims. Like I said, a bit like us away from home, pointless.

By ANoS (213.122.16.150) on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 11:48 am: Edit

I'm not saying that people are'nt entitled to their opinions, and I'm not telling them what they should think. But lets look at the situation. We've got a manager that isn't going to get the sack. And we've got 3 home games coming up. So we sit there and slag off the manager and the team, or do we get behind the lads, and God forbid, try and support the manager (who at the end of the day is in charge of our football team?). And I don't think, Dave Roe, that by telling the fans that it's not CL's fault we haven't got a forward, I'm telling what they should think...

I also don't go into games thinking we are going to lose. It's impossible to think that way when we've lost only once at home all season! Away from home I don't expect much, but at home I go with confidence and go to support the team. I don't go just to sit there moaning and helping to spread a bad feeling around the ground. Drummie and co are entitled to post what they like, but at Bescot Stadium we should all pull together for the good of the team in my opinion.

By Stu (13.16.137.10) on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 11:50 am: Edit

C&D, let me take that shopping example you've just used.

Imagine you go shopping at Sainsburys for some apples. You get there, but find that everyone else has beaten you to the apples. What do you do? You got there early enough, but in the free for all you couldn't get any.

You go to Safeway. What if they've got no apples?

You go to Tesco. They've got apples but they're not very good.

You go to Waitrose, they've got apples but you can't afford them.

What do you do? Your hands are tied, as the apples aren't available, those that are available are either (a) not good enough or (b) too expensive.
Its not as if you left it too late, as you went shopping at the same time as everyone else but for various reasons you couldn't get them.

So, whose fault is it? Maybe you should speak to your bank manager to get more cash? So you do that, he gives you more cash but the prices go up and you still can't afford them. So you get the apples from Tesco, but you take them back as you don't like them.

What else can you do? Surely, you just have to wait until Sainsburys get some more apples.

And I can't believe that a striker debate has turned into talking about analogies using apples and supermarkets.

By Bristol Saddler (217.161.104.2) on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 11:52 am: Edit

Drummie was your complete hatred of football managers, developed during the Francis years????

By Bristol Saddler (217.161.104.2) on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 12:02 pm: Edit

Continuing Stu's excellent thread:
To compound things the apples you do have in your larder, are either going bad or not yet fully ripe! So a mate lends a shiny new one, only to the find the core's all bad!

Drummie, can you please explain how CL has "Dismantled the team"? In addition, if you think we are consistently going to lose, then don't bother going, you pays your money, you takes your choice!

Being a fan is about going through the bad times in readiness for the good and although I am as disappointed as anyone with our current form! We are still in Division one and are

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