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Burnely (a) - League - 6th October 2003

Reports and reaction from the 2003-04 season as Walsall finished 22nd (R) in Division 1
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Burnely (a) - League - 6th October 2003

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:31 pm

By Surrey Saddler (195.93.34.9) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Listening to the game on the web it seems it could have gone any way in the first half. By all accounts Jorge missed chances galore. We simply cannot afford to give up goal scoring opportunities like this. Colin must either get in a new striker or play Fryat or Birch up front and pronto.

By cona (82.37.8.173) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 07:29 pm: Edit

i agree . i must admit its quite disheartening to hear so many fans calling foe cl head espespecially after the last two results . but we desperately need someone who can take their chances infront of goal

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.172) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 07:40 pm: Edit

What does Jorge have to do, how many chances does he have to miss, before he gets dropped?

If we can't get a new experienced striker in, then surely it's time to give Fryatt his big chance, Jorge has had more than enough chances now and failed to come up with the goods.

By MarkW (81.132.151.169) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 07:45 pm: Edit

Pathetic! Well no more away games for me this season.It's absolutely pointless going away and totally frustrating witnessing the tactics of our wonderful manager.
Why are so many calling for his head? Because he's an idiot.
What the hell does he tell them at half time.
How can you start the game with a system that must have been spoken about at some length and then change it after 10 mins.

By sj (195.93.34.9) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 07:52 pm: Edit

Friggin hell,its not Jorge its the team not winning the second ball. All other teams I have seen this year in the second half roll-up their sleeves and get "stuck-in" we don't and sadly at the moment I don't think we can.

By Pedro (195.93.34.9) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 08:04 pm: Edit

•••• thats all I have to say and we missed Richie
today

By Delves Saddler (82.37.160.127) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 08:25 pm: Edit

Sorry, SJ, but Jorge yet again missed two glorious chances in the first half (and Merse missed one). He has to either have an out and out partner if CL refuses to drop him (instead of a part-time striker in Merse - that is not a criticism as Merse is having to do a job up front and in midfield) or be dropped in favour of Fryatt and Birch (or the possible new arrival in Burchill).

First half (bar the first ten minutes when I thought we were gonna get buried in double quick time) was a good performance. After Zigor and Lawrence had finished pushing and arguing with each other, we produced decent football and a number of chances which weren't taken, the obvious two when Merse and Jorge both only had the keeper to beat.

The whole team was AWOL in the second half. We hardly got a look in and couldn't keep the ball for love nor money. Jimmy was oustanding throughout.

Zigor had an absolute mare and Pedro wasn't much better (that's from me, an advocate for both of them). O'Neill was the only player (aside from Jimmy) who stood out in the second half. Baird had his worst game so far and Samways was unusually anonymous. Lawrence was decent. Merse misplaced a number of passes and at times looked like a man at the end of his tether. This, however, does not warrant some idiot shouting "Merson, you're ••••!".

Hay and Emblen, when we were under pressure, looked like a poor partnership. Assuming Roper is fit next game, the back three has to be roper, ritchie and Hay (purely because roper and hay seem to understand each other better - it's no reflection on Emblen).

I am going to break my short silence on Fryatt. HE HAS GOT TO START NEXT GAME as a partner for Birch. Jorge has to be dropped - the chances he is missing is criminal.

CL - the system worked first half (bar the first 10). The players were just plain awful in the second half and Burnley seized the chance presented to them on a plate. The overall performance in the 2nd and the result were not CL's fault. However, if he persists to play one striker (Jorge) I will be very displeased (blind loyalty?). Stu - did you go today? Assuming you did, do you not think it is now time for 2 out and out strikers (Merse is not playing as a FT striker)? Yet again, two up front instead of Jorge would have wrapped that game up for us in the 1st - I am convinced of this 100%.

By df (213.48.83.74) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 09:40 pm: Edit

Utter bobbins. Had chances in the ten minutes that followed the goal but could and should have been dead and buried by then.
I'm not going to get into a row about whether Jorge should play or not so all I'll note is that it doesn't matter who plays there if we fail to supply or support that player. For me it's the system (or lack of it) that's killing Jorge.


By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 10:13 pm: Edit

It is not jorge leitoa's fault we are losing games. There is only 1 person who is to blame and that is the inept COLIN LEE. He picks the team and is playing leitao who is obviously short on confidence and by doin this LEE is making it worse. A couple of weeks back lee said that jorge needs resting and with birch leading the line well against Ipswich, he deserves his chance.Amazingly he then goes back on his statement and brings leitao back. this is staggeringly bad management. what he is doing is contridicting his every word so therefore not only denting leitao's confidence even more but also gary birch's by goin back on his word. it defies beleif. His new tactic now is to prepare a game plan throughout the week and then change it after 10 minutes. a clear sign that he just doesn't know what he is doing. TIMES UP MR LEE, U ARE A COMPLETE JOKE. GET HIM OUT

By PGtips (194.117.133.9) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 10:20 pm: Edit

A real Jeckell and Hyde performance. For three minutes after kicking off we looked positive and got at Burnley. Then the first time they cross the half way line soft defending gifts them a goal. In the 20 minutes that followed we could have gone for 4 or 5. Total shambles with the formation changing but still being pulled apart. Walsall players arguing with themselves.

A goal out of the blue and suddenly we could have had 4 or 5 ourselves. I guess it really highlights the importance of confidence to the players.

Whatever happened in the 2nd half though??? We were awful. I thought it was a harsh handball for the 2nd goals free kick and the ball was out of play for the 3rd goal. The linesman missed at least 3 of these. However I can not argue with the result. We were crap in the 2nd half and invited so much pressure on ourselves that it was inevitable we would concede.

By Markw (81.132.130.131) on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 10:25 pm: Edit

Come on Lee lovers give the idiot your full backing.

By Manchester Saddler (213.106.179.33) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 12:27 am: Edit

MarkW - who the feck would do a better job? Look at the stats. We have a better record now than we had after the equivalent games last season. Do you think we should win every game? We're not going to set this division alight - we never were - even with Merse - but the sitaution isn't as bad as you Lee-bashers are making out. I'm sick of reading posts from people like you. You just sit there and moan when we get beat and moan when we win. When we get beat - it's the manager's fault. When we win, according to you, we play crap and are lucky. For heaven's sake let's have a reality check here. We're not going to win this league - we're going to finish somewhere in mid-table which means we're going to lose games to teams like Burnley. I hate it when we lose and, yes, it's easy to criticize the manager and players when that happens, but we should get behind the team no matter what. I suppose the Lee-bashers sit there and shout abuse about "the system" even when we win. Sure the lads are going to underperform on occasion but that's life. This is a tough division and you Lee-bashers know it. I ask again - who would do a better job given the resources and finances? Get behind the team. With the resources we've got we're not doing that badly. Up the Saddlers and get behind Colin Lee.

I'm now going to try and sleep off the beer I've had tonight. Goodnight.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 01:28 am: Edit

Dummie. Dummie. Dummie. Can you answer me this. You say "His new tactic now is to prepare a game plan throughout the week and then change it after 10 minutes. a clear sign that he just doesn't know what he is doing".
How do you know that this was not his game plan, to change things around once we went 1-0 down? Just wondered thats all?
Answer me that NEGATIVE Dummie. Dummie. Dummie.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.170) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 01:58 am: Edit

It's all very well blaming CL and the system, and saying there's no blame attached to Jorge, but it seems to me "the system", which some are saying provides no supply to Jorge, in fact provided Jorge with several simple chances today, and what did he do with all of them? The same as he did against Preston and Gillingham - sod-all, that's what!

So when exactly do we stop blaming CL and start blaming an inept finisher?

It seems we blame CL for everything, including the fact that our main striker couldn't hit a barn door from three yards. I blame CL for one thing - continuing to pick a striker who ain't got a clue where the net is, or how to put the ball in it. If we can't find a decent new striker, it's surely time to give Birch an extended run, and give Fryatt the chance to show us what he can do. It's plain to see that sticking with Jorge just isn't working, we surely can't do worse than give the new boys a chance!

By Exile (203.167.253.205) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 02:37 am: Edit

I'm getting bloomin frustrated by our huge lack of consistency this season. At least when we were ••••• we knew week-in, week-out that the lads would fumble around and maybe fluke a point or three, but the bar has now been raised (and I'm using a high jump metaphor, not a drinking one).

We've signed some class this summer, for the first time in a long time, and I think we've all got better expectations of what we expect from the club. As it is, we're performing with an incredible lack of vision, and it seems to me as if either (1) the team don't have a viable game plan each time they get on to the pitch, (2) the game plan changes too often for them to adapt or (3) they ignore the game plan.

Given that the manager tells them what to do (and that has to be a given, or there's no point in having a manager) we can discount (1) which leaves (2) and (3). (2) is a possibility, due to team injuries and suspensions, as is (3), which could be due to ignorance or selective deafness.

What's wrong? No one trusting or listening to Lee implies a lack of confidence from the blokes on the pitch. Did he bring in the wrong players? Is he picking the wrong players? Do they think they're too good for Walsall? Don't they like his style? Is there discontent in the dressing room? Who is at the root of it?

I don't think dumping Lee is the answer just yet, for reasons espoused by others on the board (not least of which is that there's no decent replacement, or at least one who'd come to us). I do think there's some serious issues coming through though. I really thought this game was a point at least, possibly three, given Burnley's own problems (only a three man bench, and they beat us easily. Says a lot), and I hate seeing points given away.

On the Jorge front, just one thing - which striker today scored a hat-trick after seven games without a goal? Sometimes it can all happen at once. How long do you wait for it though? [cue "requisite ten games" post from someone].

Feeling low now. Off to work on my performance management assignment (seriously).

Cheers all
Exile

By Someone (203.167.253.205) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 02:42 am: Edit

I think Jorge should get the requisite ten games after scoring his last goal before we can state objectively that he's lost his touch, is a total liability to the team, has no confidence and that Fryatt and / or Birch ought to start instead.

Four more games to go.


By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 02:51 am: Edit

Its ok to blame Jorge. How about blaming our defence for the goal we lost against Cardiff. 2 points down the pan. The goal at Crewe, another 1 point down the pan. The goal against Derby. Another 1 point down the pan. The goals against Ipswich and Millwall. Another few more points down the pan.

By coxandrummie (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 02:59 am: Edit

so what u are sayin sheff that colin lee changed the system after 10 minutes went we went 1 down because he felt by changing it the team wud have a better chance of playing better. if that is true have u ever thought of why he didn't use that formation in the first place if he felt we would play better. what u are sayin defies logic.
it's just EXCUSES EXCUSES EXCUSES

By Exile (203.167.253.205) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 03:01 am: Edit

We shouldn't ever blame the defence when we're looking to win games, Sheffield. Conceding goals loses games, not scoring goals helps us NOT WIN. I'd sooner win than not lose, and as we'll more often than not concede a goal, surely you can see that only by scoring more we'll occasionally win.

Cheers
Exile

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 03:03 am: Edit

No he changed it because we was 1-0 down and not level! Not rocket science is it dummie?
Even for someone as incredibly stupid as you.

By MarkW (81.132.151.173) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 10:47 am: Edit

Lee is to blame for Jorge's current problems.How obvious is it that he can't play the role of a loan striker.His confidence is shot thanks to total mis -management
Manchester Saddler-No I don't expect to win every game.It's the manner of defeat I don't like Burnley are a crap side that we should be taking points off not rolling over to.
Not normally so vocal on this board i'm seriusly pissed off with Lee.

By Mark W (81.132.151.173) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 10:50 am: Edit

So pissed off that can't spell seriously.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 11:36 am: Edit

Some people on here just seem to be completely eradicating colin lee from any of walsall's problems. I mean at what point will they admit that he is not the right man for the job. I mean in sheffs case im sure if we were in the conferance in a a few years time he would probably say " aww well he's had a bad run but he's still the right man for the job, lets give him time"

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 11:43 am: Edit

Dummie. Dummie. Dummie. Lee is the right man for the job though isnt he? Surely you think that?
He may have a few problems at the moment, but overall he has been superb at Walsall. He kept us in division one from a hopeless position when he took over. He kept us up last season. And now we are in the 3rd year at division one level for the first time in our history. All thanks to who exactly? Lee of course.
He as attracted quality players to the club. I for one am happy I bought my season ticket, just to have the privaleage of watching Merson. We will stay up and finish mid-table. I have no doubts on this. Which I think on such limited funds is good.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.177) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Agreed Sheff, right now we don't need changes in management. That would only have a de-stabilising effect on the club and the players, which could take months to recover from.

Basic facts are:

Most of the players we have are on contracts so we're stuck with them - not that that should be a problem given the obvious quality CL has brought in.

We don't have any money for additional players - well maybe a little, reserved to bring in a striker if and when one can be identified and becomes available, but other than that basically what we have is all we're likely to get.

As Sheff says, we are conceding goals, but until yesterday never more than two in a league game and most often it's been no more than one, so can we honestly blame the defence too much for our plight? I don't think so, even in the last-minute disaster against Cardiff it was more the fault of the midfield and forward(s) that allowed the pressure to build up so intensely on the defence.

As I've said in my comments about Jorge, and Exile's cryptic post above appears to agree, we can't win any game unless we score. The defence might hold out and stop us from losing, but it's only goals scored that can win us games.

Jorge may come good and provide the goals, but personally I don't think there's a cat-in-hell's chance of that happening. He has never been a prolific scorer in this division and I don't think we can afford to keep playing him this way and watching the chances pass him (and us) by.

The time has surely come to bring in Fryatt in a pair with Birch, or even with Jorge, and Merson playing in his favoured slot behind them. If it works out, great, if it doesn't then it was surely worth a go, because for sure what's going on right now has just thrown away winnable games against average opposition.

So far at home we've thrown away 2 points against Stoke, 2 against Cardiff, and 3 against a truly-miserable Derby. Away we could/should probably have brought back 1 from Crewe, 1 from Ipswich, 1 from Millwall and at least 1 from Burnley. That's another 11 points that we could realistically have totted up by now - I don't think that is too far from the truth.

But here we are persisting with a lone-striker who right now can't strike for love nor money. I feel sorry for Jorge, but it doesn't even look like working and it must change now before even more winnable points go down the drain.

By Purple Pete (213.40.3.65) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 01:30 pm: Edit

Good posts Sheff.
Although I dont think the problem is with the defence, that will improve when confidence levels do.

I dont think the problem is CL he has done us proud and is bound to make a few decisions we do not all understand and its easy to pick on them when they dont work too well. CL is the reason we have got the best team we have ever had.

I think the problem is the fact we are not scoring enough goals. OK we let in 3 at Burnley but Rotherham let in 3 at Bescot last season and beat us 4-3 if I remember correct. Our team play well together and with some confidence boosting wins will be brilliant and anyone who saw the West Brom game will know its possible. But the problem is that for all the good play we cannot finish as well as we should. I have seen at least 6 easy goal scoring chances not taken which had they been scored would have made a big difference to our points total. Most of the chances have fallen to Jorge and as much as I like him and his work rate I think we need to put a natural goalscorer upfront to finish off all of the hard work. Matty Fryatt has that abilty as he keeps proving in the reserves. I have only seen him play a few times but he looks good to me and moves into good positions around the goal area. Maybe CL feels he cannot fill the lone striker role which given the squad we have seems to be the best way to play with pacey midfielders making runs which are hard to pick up. I think he should be given a chance at Watford its only one game and 'if things dont change they will stay as they are'. Jorge can sit on the bench and if its not working bring him on later to replace Fryatt or as a 2 man attack.

Just look at Derby with two 16 year olds who are doing really well.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.176) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 02:37 pm: Edit

I fully agree with you PP

By Purple Pete (213.40.3.65) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 03:02 pm: Edit

Yes Geoff - after I posted I found that we both had similar thoughts on the subject.

Anybody else think the same?

By beechdalesaddler (62.31.217.195) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 03:09 pm: Edit

Yesterday has summed up most of our performances away from home this season the first 15 minutes we are on the backfoot because the home teams come and attack us, the next 15 minutes we attack and cause problems and then for the last 15 of the half its end to end stuff, and then half time comes?!. What does that man tell them at half-time "we will stick 10 men behind the ball and wait until we go a goal down before we start to attack again". Whats the point in trying to consolidate a draw away from home if all we are going to do is boot the ball up for jorge to flick the ball on to no-one and we lose posession. 0-1-4 (our away record), Burnley, ipswich and millwall are all games we have lost the points through one mans negative tactics away from home. We look so much better when we attack teams i.e., first half against ipswich, millwall first 20 minutes and burnley most of the first half. Every away game this season has been **** second half, I might ask the woman in the club shop see if i can get a ticket for one half!
Come on lads 10 days till our next match, get a striker in!

By Surrey Saddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Good post Geoff(the long one). It seems to me that perhaps CL took his eye of the ball in pre season when all the Merse hype was in full flow. He shouls perhaps have paid more attention to getting a striker in then because we knew full well we needed one- Zrillic gone and Birch refusing his first contract. I still have faith in CL, however, but it cannot help if we get on his back all the time. He seems not to like it- witness the outbursts to fans in the vicinity(budding Alex Fergusons). By the way,sorry I missed you at the Saddlers Club before the Preston game. I was there but arrived late. AND NOW ANOTHER MATTER. I was in Walsall all last weekend and took the opportunity to have a good look round, i.e a Barr Beacon walk (round trip of 10 miles) and a good walk round the town the next day. NEVER have I seen so much rubbish just flung to the ground- crisp packets, drinks cans, chip paper etc etc. Fellow Saddlers who live in Walsall: You are very lucky to live in such a great place SO write to the Council and insist they clean it up. At present it is an utter disgrace. The people of Surrey would never put up with living with trash scattered all over the place!!

By Stu (195.92.67.70) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Far too much too read.

But, I must admit, I love the people who want to sack Lee because we lost a game, despite the two wins that went before it.

Didn't go yesterday, quite glad by the sounds of the 2nd half. It beggars the question what changed in the 2nd half?

Oh well, its only one defeat. Can't see us getting the 4 points I wanted from these 4 away games now.

I do wish we'd drop this counter attack style of football mind you. We don't have the pace to hit teams quickly on the break and we are prone to defensive errors, so letting a team attack you whilst hitting them on the break, means we'll always concede goals.

By PGtips (62.30.0.3) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 07:33 pm: Edit

It was surprising to see CL quoted in the press before the game this weekend claiming that our game was now ideally suited to picking up points away from home. He refered to our counter attacking style.

I don't want to be a CL knocker but what does this mean exactly?

The best counter attacking sides I have seen have genuine pace in the side. Bolton with Gardner and Okocha were superb at this in todays sky game. They played with one man up front who was superbly supported by pacy midfielders arriving quickly to accept the ball from him. We have Merson and Pedro who play miles off Jorge. They also must be the slowest players in the league. Lawrence still does not look fit. The only player with any pace in the midfield is O'Neill who we will have to give back soon.

We are at times an accurate and good passing side but I just do not see any counter attacking.

By Ian Gittins (81.132.16.76) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 07:39 pm: Edit

I agree with Sheff and Geoff that all this "sack Lee" nonsense is incredibly premature and a pure panic reaction. We have a good squad with the gaping, obvious exception of a decent striker or two up front who can finish off the often impressive approach work.

Jorge Leitao has proved over three seasons that he is a willing worker and a moderate finisher, good for 12-15 goals per season, but he lacks the pace or ability to hold the ball to play a lone role up front. Until we can get a proven performer to take pressure off him, I agree with those suggesting that Birch, Fryatt or Hawley should be given a few games to stake their claims.

In Paul Merson we have one of the best creative, perceptive midfielders in the game, but he's also a fragile character, and if he spends too long seeing all his through balls and incisions come to nothing, his head will drop and he will lose interest. And I certainly see no point in pig-ignorant heckling of Lee, Merson or any other squad member; in this current testing spell, we can play our part, too.

By Delves Saddler (82.37.160.25) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 09:07 pm: Edit

Prior to Burnley, the case for the 'defence' was(one of my previous posts):

I hate to be a statto on this but, when we score 1 or 0 goals, our record is:

Won 0, Drawn 3, Lost 4

When we score 2 goals or more, our record is:

Won 3, Drawn 0, Lost 0 (which is on a par with the top 6 teams)

Yet our record when only conceding 1 or 0 goals is:

Won 3, Drawn 3, Lost 2

So that's 5 games where we could have scored one more goal and got a better result - Coventry, Stoke, Crewe, Cardiff, Derby.

So, taking all of the above into account, clearly conceding is NOT why we are in the bottom half of the table.

Burnley was a case of the whole team going AWOL in the second half. An abysmal performance.

By Delves Saddler (82.37.160.25) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 09:25 pm: Edit

C&D - of course it's Jorge's fault in the main - how many sitters have been presented to him that a good out and out forward would have put away easily. Combine that with the above defensive facts and you have a recipe for regular defeats. And I hardly think CL is denting Jorge's confidence - he has persisted with Jorge way longer than he should have done. This is my only criticism of CL and partly the reason behind our problems - his blind loyalty to Jorge and his failure to realise that he has to be dropped and replaced with two strikers in Fryatt and Birch. So yes, CL is partly to blame for the goal scoring problem, but as Sheff said, he is otherwise doing a good job - chances are been created and our defence has as good or better a record than 15 other teams in the division (prior to yesterday with ropes and ritchie out and the anonymous team second half, only 5 teams were better defensively). Absolutely ridiculous to suggest he should be sacked.

Totally agree Manchester Saddler, Geoff, Purple Pete. Sheff, I agree with you about CL but the defence cannot be blamed - see above.

By Delves Saddler (82.37.160.25) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 09:30 pm: Edit

Note, C&D, I haven't completely erdicated CL from our problems.

However, he will eventually (and sooner rather than later) realise the striker problem, and play two up front (whoever they may be) and all this talk of his sacking will be a distant pathetic memory when we start scoring goals and winning regularly.`

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 09:42 pm: Edit

I agree with u on that one pgtips. there is no way that walsall can play a counter attackin style for your very reason, LACK OF PACE. i think this is the very reason our away form is abysmal.
It is such an effective way of playing away from home and for lee to suggest that we have the team to play that way doesn't work with me. The only way that walsall can play with the team they have is a high pressure game where u can build possesion and make sure u keep it in advanced areas. To do this it is crucial that a player like sammways can get in a more advanced position so he can carve a pass to hurt teams rather than playing in a deeper area where i feel he is less effective. there is no reason why he can't do this because in o neil and lawrence u have engine players so that if it does break down they can be the tracker backers.

By boris (62.188.4.73) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 08:58 am: Edit

we lose a game and everyone panics, calls for CL to be sacked etc etc.

Walsall is a different club from 5 years ago - but some things never change - idiots will probably always come onto this message board.

I think jorge has to be replaced as he is missing chance after chance. but its far from a crisis - make like uri geller and think positive !

By DF (213.48.83.82) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 09:13 am: Edit

"our game was now ideally suited to picking up points away from home". I haven't read this until now but Colin (if true) has really upped the comedy stakes with this corker.

That must be why we've lost at Crewe, Ipswich, Millwall & Burnley. I can only assume that Colin is referring to our huge return from Coventry.

If we could sort the home form out and perhaps develop a style of football to win a game at Bescot every now and then this division would be our oyster!

By DF (213.48.83.82) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 09:18 am: Edit

Apologies Colin, I forgot victories at Solihull, Moor Green & Kiddy

By Stu (195.92.67.65) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 09:31 am: Edit

I don't think you should be too hard on Jorge. The bloke is working like a trojan, apart from doing his own job of closing down and chasing up front, he is also defending for Merson. So he is working bloody hard, therefore it could be said your asking a hell of a lot for him to then be sharp enough and composed enough to take the chances when they come his way. However much you may think its a "sitter", when your legging it from a defensive position to an attacking position, your legs are going to struggle.

I agree wholeheartedly with the comment about the lack of pace not helping a counter attack style of football. But I've been saying that all season, Reading played a lone forward but had bundles of pace and played 4-5-1 with wingers which turned into 4-3-3.

At the end of the day, when you've a 34 yr old (Samways) and a 35yr old (Merson) in your side, you are not going to be over-flowing with energy, running and pace.

By popperpancake (81.134.180.131) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 11:18 am: Edit

The thing that worries me the most is that i expect to lose when we play away. That's not good, but it's true. I was away at the weekend and i was sitting in front of the tv waiting for the inevitable late goal (it was 2 this time). It happens time after time. Fact is we are ••••• away from bescot. And have been since the end of the first RG season. The years following that have been poor on opposition soil. Even the team that won the play offs and had better players than most in that league at the time was pretty useless in away games. It just seems to be something that has carried on, even tho manager and players have changed. We occasionally throw a crazy score in (like 3-0 at millwall) but mostly we lose or desperately hang on for a point.

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 11:38 am: Edit

Both sitters on Saturday did not involve Jorge coming from a more defensive posistion.

I agree with the high pressure game, C&D - as we played at Crewe, and Ipswich & Millwall in spells. This is when we look our best and most likely to get something. And CL has obviously told them to play that type of game as those matches have indicated, but Exile has a valid point - do they 'ignore the game plan' at times?? Or is it because the sole outlet up front in Jorge means we lose the ball going forward too much and get sucked into playing a different game?

To reap the rewards that high pressure game gameplan sews for us, two strikers is the key.

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 11:39 am: Edit

Spellcheck - that should be 'sow'.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 11:57 am: Edit

Absultely correct Delves. We NEED to play with TWO STRIKERS.

By Dave Roe (217.37.14.235) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 01:57 pm: Edit

I don't care about these arguments about too many holding midfielders, or whatever.

We MUST play with TWO STRIKERS and Merson just behind.


By Stu (195.92.67.70) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 02:31 pm: Edit

Is that despite the fact that in the last two home matches we created more than enough chances to score 3/4?

Is that despite the fact that we created more than enough chances to score 3/4 on Saturday at Burnley?

I'm not fussed whether we go 2 strikers or 1 striker... But don't expect a complete change in performances just coz you put two men up front. if anything, it'll also mean we naturally sit more deep. It also means that O'Neill and Lawrence could find themselves redundant from the team...

At the end of the day. We've just learnt how to create chances despite having 1 striker, if players aren't taking their chances then that is nothing to do with the absence of a 2nd striker. Its down to poor finishing and compsure.

Delves, I'm not saying Jorge was coming from a defensive position. I'm saying that maybe the responsibility of doing Merson's leg work defensively, means that he is just too tired mentally to do his job up front.

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Stu, you have hit the nail on the head, We have created enough chances to win games easily. But we haven't scored them. I can't comment on Jorge's mentality, I'm not a sports psychologist. But, as you yourself said, the lack of goals is down to poor finishing and composure - what has been the natural solution to that over decades of football? - change the personnel. And surely it is logical to play 2 strikers instead of one when you are struggling for goals.



By Stu (195.92.67.65) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 04:11 pm: Edit

I don't see why its logical to play 2 strikers instead of 1.

It would be logical if we weren't creating the chances, as that extra striker would give more options.

But as I've said, chances isn't the problem. Its converting the chances.

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 04:24 pm: Edit

Two heads are better than one. If one striker does end up doing Merson's defensive duties, the other is fresh and up front proactively sniffing out those chances rather than having to chase after them reactiveley (I've been on too many company training courses!).

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 05:15 pm: Edit

The reasons I would play 2 strikers is simple.
1. Less pressure on the lone striker. Chances will come to both strikers.
2. It is too negative especially at home.
3. The vast majority of teams that win anything play with more than 1 striker thats for sure!

By Stu (195.92.67.208) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Chances come to whoever is up there, regardless of whether it be a striker or Gary O'Neill/Jamie Lawrence.

Two strikers won't neccessarily mean more chances. If anything, it'll mean less chances as there are less players in the middle creating chances.

As I keep saying, to play two strikers and Merse, we'll need two holding midfielders (not too midfielders who attack from deep like now). Thus, its pretty much down to Merse to be the attacking element. Where as now we have Merse, O'Neill and Lawrence.

2. I don't believe its too negative, if anything,when your attacking as your getting a lot of bodies in the box.

3.A nd a hell of a lot of teams that don't win anything also play 2 up front. So I don't buy that at all.

We'll disagree on this all day long, I see why he is playing this formation and he has no other option.

If you want to play 4-4-2, or 3-5-2 then I suggest the best way of doing it is to drop Merson. That way, you could still put Lawrence-Samways-O'Neill across the middle and not lose that attacking from deep element, you'd also have 2 up front.

But, would you drop Merson? I certainly wouldn't.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 06:13 pm: Edit

I didnt say 2 strikers would mean more chances. I said chances will come to both strikers.
I believe it is far too negative.
The vast majority of teams dont play 1 up front because it doesnt work and is too negative. Thats the bottom line of the matter.
Jorge is not good enough playing by himself up front. And I think it will be hard to find a striker at this level who is, unless you want to shell out some decent money.

By Purple Pete (81.134.105.159) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 06:24 pm: Edit

I think you are spot on stu.

You have got to create chances which we do and you have got to score goals from them which we don't (well not enough).

If you play with one striker he should get more than the usual amount of chances and should get a decent return. It may be easier to mark one striker but that is offset by the fact that the attacking midfielders are hard to pick up and cause additional problems which should produce extra goals.

The problem is that we expect too many goals from midfield when in fact our return from that area is acceptable.

The only real problem we appear to have is a lack of confidence which is worse away from home. The only way to build that confidence is to start picking up points and we need to score goals to do that. That is why Jorge needs to be rested for a short while until he regains his confidence in front of goal. The only person we appear to have at the moment who is a proven goalscorer at some level is Matty Fryatt - no contest.

Put Jorge on the bench and bring him on fresh in the second half if all else fails.

By Stu (195.92.67.208) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 09:17 pm: Edit

My point completely, its far easier to mark two out and out strikers than it is to mark one floating striker and two midfielders coming from deep very late on.

Its all down to opinions. No way am I saying that I prefer a lone striker to a two pronged attack.

Personally, I'd prefer to see us play with two strikers. But I don't believe we have two strikers good enough.

I'd love to see us play 3-4-1-2, with Samways and O'Neill as the middle pairing and Merson floating off Jorge & another striker.

But, until we get a 2nd striker we can't do that. So there is no point in saying we should play with two strikers, as I don't think we have two strikers good enough.

And before we say Matty Fryatt, if he was good enough then Lee would play him. Lee blooded a lot of kids at Wolves (Naylor, Lescott, Andrews, Robbie Keane!!!! plus others). If he thinks they're good enough to make an immediate impact, they'll play. He obviously isn't convinced Fryatt is ready as of this moment.

Hopefully, we'll get a 2nd striker this week and go for two strikers. But, till then, I think this debate is pointless as we don't have any other options.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 01:29 am: Edit

i think most of us all agree that walsall need to play 2 strikers and ive come up with a system that we can allocate Merson. it's attacking and i think it would work. id play a 4-1-3-2. id have a flat back 4 and id have emblem as a holding player in midfield just in front of back 4 in a withdrawn midfield role. then id have 3 in centre midfield and give them the liscence to get forward and support 2 centre forwards. it would work because you wud always have the insurance of emblem as a holder. this is it
walker
baird roper ritchie aranalde

emblem

o neil sammways merson

lawrence wrack

some of u may be suprised by my selection up front. but i feel wrack and lawrence shud both be given a chance there.both can hold the ball, both have pace and i think both are decent finishers as well as been good in the air and physical. give em a try, they have both played in that role before and think they wud work well together. not only that, i think we are allocating our best players as well. the 3 in the centre wud have a liscence to play a high pressure game knowin that emblem is there as insurance in a holding role with instructions to stay there.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 01:36 am: Edit

The more i think about this formation and team the more it excites me. im 110% sure it would work. what do u reckon lads?

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 02:11 am: Edit

How can you play a flat back 4 and 3 central midfielders? An impossible combination! The opposition will run you ragged going down the flanks! Cant you see that?
And Lawrence and Wrack up front! Jesus do you want us to be relegated or what!

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 08:31 am: Edit

No width, no aerial threat, no chance. Merson is not, never has been and never will be a "central midfielder", as they have to tackle and chase back.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 11:14 am: Edit

There is width in this system because of it's flexibility. when u watch good sides u never really see a rigid formation, it all changes depending on who has the ball at that given time. the key to it defensively is emblem in a holding role just in front of defence. he would operate there by working from side to side depending which side opposition were attacking, and be like a midfield sweeper. offensively both o niel and merson can peel off into wide area's as emblem moves into a central midfield role, he would always be following the line of the ball to maintain a cover. also u could have both lawrence and wrack peelin off wide giving merson the opportuinity to then get in the middle. as for areal threat, i think both lawrence and wrack are very good in the air plus u would have the added bonus on set peices because emblem is there so effectively it's like having 3 central defenders on defensive corners and attacking ones

By popperpancake (81.134.180.131) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 11:29 am: Edit

Ive never heard wrack described as very good in the air b4?! And Lawrence looks decent in the air, not very good.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 12:52 pm: Edit

If coxanddrummie worked under Brian Clough as he as stated. Then I have sh*gged Kylie and Kate Winslet.

By Dave Roe (217.37.14.235) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 01:55 pm: Edit

Well according to another thread it looks like Man Utd, Everton & Bolton are coming to the conclusion that Fryatt is good enough. Let's hope our first chance to find out isn't by watching the Premiership on a Saturday night !

Okay expecting Fryatt to do the business every game for the rest of the season might be a bit optimistic for a seventeen year old. But surely he is worth a couple of games until we find this elusive striker ? What the hell have we got to lose at the moment ?


By popperpancake (81.134.180.131) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 02:11 pm: Edit

I seem to remember some premiership teams think Birch was a top prospect a few years back.

By Neil Ravenscroft (82.37.184.16) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 06:35 pm: Edit

Derby

By Natasha Kaplinsky (172.188.137.176) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 07:04 pm: Edit

Sheff, you two-timing rotter!

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 07:13 pm: Edit

No I am not. I went out with them at different times. Hard to choose my favourite but I think I would have to go for Kylie.

By woody walsall (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 07:36 pm: Edit

I think its time cox and drummie left colin lee alone, after all its the 11 on the field who should be scoring the goals, where is there ambition

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 09:47 am: Edit

If you think that's bad, have a look at the Rivals site. He's mild and considered in comparison! I, like many others, have decided to give up on it until sanity prevails!

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.163) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 10:29 am: Edit

Until sanity prevails ! So like me Neil, you're never going back there then.

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 10:30 am: Edit

I'll be back should we win three on the trot, Geoff, just to see if they are calling for Lee's head for being too successful.

By BushSaddler (213.122.84.67) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 05:27 pm: Edit

What a pity Geoff, you are so interesting and well informed on every subject they would be pleased to have you.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.173) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 05:57 pm: Edit

Thank you BushSaddler, how nice of you to say so

By Dave Roe (81.131.146.138) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 11:01 pm: Edit

Geoff, you'd be out of your depth over there mate.

I'll show you why. My first line would be written like this on the Rivals messageboard:-

geoff u'd b out of yr depth ovr thr m8

I just can't see you and 'text speak' getting along, Geoff.

Actually I know a couple of the lads that run the NMFE site and they are good lads who produce a decent website. Unfortunately there isn't much they can do about the quality of postings on the messageboards.


By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.171) on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 12:58 am: Edit

Dave, ur way wydv da mark. I use txt a lot evry day, same as u do.

Reason I've no time for Rivals is the few we get on here prove to me its a waste of time. But I ain't past it yet !

n e way, catch u l8r m8

By Neil Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 08:29 am: Edit

Dave, I was criticising the postings, not the message boards, although their match reports do seem a bit biased lately (see the Burnley one).

By Dave Roe (81.131.91.108) on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 10:07 pm: Edit

Sorry Geoff but my phone has got predictive texting, so it's easier to write properly than in text language !


By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.164) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 01:36 am: Edit

My phone has predictive texting too Dave, but I just can't get on with it - I keep it switched off always.

By Cal's a saddler (81.131.140.5) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 06:26 am: Edit

Does this dispel the myth, You can't teach an old dog new tricks??
Sorry Geoff!

By Old Fogey Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 09:17 am: Edit

What's texting?

By Cal's a saddler (62.171.220.229) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 10:17 am: Edit

No Neil that shd b txtin!! Cum n keep up

By popperpancake (81.134.180.131) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 10:22 am: Edit

Yeah turn predictive text off. It's •••••. It just gives me a word completely unlike the one i require.

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 12:05 pm: Edit

I 8 d wolves!

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 12:56 pm: Edit

How can anyone turn predicitive text messaging off!!! It takes at least double the time to write a text with it off thats for sure!

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.169) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 01:28 pm: Edit

Not for me Sheff - same as Popper I just get the wrong words coming up and I spend more time deleting 'em than it takes to enter it all with the prd. txt off.

I've tried to get to grips with it, but it's not for me. Maybe you can give me a quick course on it at the next night out

By Ravenscroft Having an Elderly Moment (62.172.127.2) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 01:34 pm: Edit

I don't understand any of this.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.172) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Well Neil, basically with predictive text activated on your mobile, as you enter your message the system works ahead of you, from your entry of the first letter the software predicts the word you are intending to enter and displays it on the screen - the prediction might change when you hit the second letter and so on, but I find it usually offers me words that I am not intending to use, so all it does for me is totally confuse the issue.

Maybe I'm using it incorrectly and losing patience with it too quickly, so I shall make sure that Sheff gives me a free lesson when we meet for the next night out.

Sheff, might the fact I've got the dictionary set on French have anything to do with it ?

By Technophobe Ravenscroft (62.172.127.2) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 03:04 pm: Edit

What's a mobile? Is it one of those things people have stuck to their ears that make them look silly?

By Too easy (213.122.60.254) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 03:15 pm: Edit

No that's your head.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.33.12) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 06:53 pm: Edit

Geoff. Predictive text messaging saves you loads of time. For example if you want to type in the word - dont. On my mobile it will come up with foot, by pressing the */+ key it will then come up with font, pressing */+ again will come up with dont. Got to be much faster then pressing the def key, the mno key 3 times, the mno key another 2 times and the tuv key.
Well one key press anyway. Added up over a text though and you will save loads of time.
Sorry for being SAD!

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.171) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 07:52 pm: Edit

I wouldn't say that's SAD Sheff, text is the way these days isn't it ? And it seems you know ways of using predictive text that could overcome the difficulties I have with it.

So that's probably why it causes me so much trouble. I'll gladly let you teach me the ins and outs of it next time we get together. I'm for anything that'll improve my text life !

By Delves Saddler (82.37.160.61) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 10:30 pm: Edit

For god's sake!!! Just phone the bugger!

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 10:57 pm: Edit

Thats not a good idea Delves! When I am in Germany for the Watford and Sunderland games next week it will cost Geoff a fortune while he is keeping me informed if he was to phone me! A 10p text is a lot cheaper
I will also keep Geoff informed of the match I am going to a week tomorrow. Wolfsburg against Rostock!
Actually, I dont think I ahve asked Geoff yet but I am sure he will!

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.171) on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 01:53 am: Edit

You're being very presumptious about that Sheff !

But yes, of course you know I will, anything for a fellow Saddlers fan, especially one of the proper genuine sort!

Incidentally I can't wait for the Wolfsburg vs Rostock report! The anticipation has been building for weeks

By Stu (195.92.67.71) on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 10:35 am: Edit

Who wants to know about Wolfsburg vs Rostock...

You want to start watching the mighty SpvGG Unterhaching with the mastermind genius of Copado up front.

By Simon C (195.92.168.168) on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 08:50 pm: Edit

I see you have apologised for being SAD Simon, how about one for being obnoxious? Just cos your in the clique on here doesn't mean you can insult me!!

By ANoS (213.122.160.192) on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 08:56 pm: Edit

Stp crying you ponce.

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