Millwall (a) - FA Cup - 3rd January 2004

[Andy]

By Surrey Saddler (195.93.34.9) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 08:26 pm: Edit

Truly dreadful performance from Walsall today. Millwall went and got every 50:50 ball. When we had possession(which wasn't very often) we gave it away. Fortunate to go one up and after that they had all the game. Birch was non existent, Emblen lumbered about in mid field, Bazeley was awful, Aranalde was substituted, Osbourne did nothing. The only thing we achieved today was to have two players sent off when the game descended into farce. Lee stood forlornly on the touch line and put Hawley on with 30 seconds to go. Enough said

By beechdale_saddler (62.31.217.134) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 09:37 pm: Edit

Well well well, yet another poor performance from Birch. He started off well enough but the last few games ITS jorge that has outshone him. bazeley and zigor ("awful"), story of the season mate. Wish we could release bazeley and zigor and use both of their wages to get baird until the end of the season! Ozzie isnt playing too bad so i cant moan at todays performance.
Walsall's discipline has been shocking since Lee has been here, we have had more penalties given from players protesting than any time under graydon but weve had more red cards(which lead to suspensions and more excuses for lee) and the opposition have had more penalties. Somethin needs to be done.
With how boring albion are at home and we are away, i think i might take my ticket back with a 0-0 draw looming.
We have weeks on end of being happy but then we have a few poor results and we start being miserable again.

By Carl (195.93.34.9) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 09:44 pm: Edit

I agree totally. I wish bazely cud find last seasons form back. Zigor for me is one of the worst players weve every had here at Walsall. He has no idea. We have no chance of Baird now, as he has broke into the Saints first team lately, it would be nice though. I believe we should give Matty Fryatt a chance, recall him from his loan spell to replace useless Birch- Or ultimatly buy a new striker! we never seem to buy strikers, always defenders and midfielders. Graydon was a far better manager than Lee, and Lee needs some dicipline in the team.
regards carl

By beechdale_saddler (62.31.217.134) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 09:50 pm: Edit

Matty Fryatt scored for carlisle today, Stanley scored for raith. Since fryatt has been at carlisle theyve won 3 out of 3 and scored 7 goals. Its amazing that, considering they had lost 3 and scored 2 in the 3 games before fryatt went there. Get him in the team lee instead of birch!

By Stu (195.92.67.78) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 10:20 pm: Edit

Beechdale,

That was Fryatt's first goal in 4 games, and it isn't just him that they've signed that started this run. They also signed Andy Preece, who is going down much better than Fryatt is.

True, they've W3 and D1 since he has been there.

But, performance wise, his 2nd and 3rd matches were ordinary. I know a Carlisle ST holder, who also goes to a good chunk of away matches.

1st match - Fryatt was superb, missed two good chances and didn't use his brain on 2 penalty appeals
Bury - Did nothing, very poor apparently. The lad who replaced him scored.
Darlington - Again, did nothing. Apparently marked by the division's best centre half(according to the lad I know), but that doesn't say much as its Division 3.

His overall view is that he isn't near first team football yet, although pacy, he isn't strong enough and isn't clever enough yet. Reckons he needs another couple of months learning.

Instead of heaping the pressure on a 17yr old kid, we need to find the funds for a proven striker, on loan or whatever.

We could start by shifting dead wood such as Stefan Oakes and Jamie Lawrence (who doesn't even want to be here).


By Stu (195.92.67.78) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 10:27 pm: Edit

In fact, Fryatt has indicated he'd be keen to stay on at Carlisle and extend his loan.

Just been told that he was quoted as saying if Simpson wants him to stay, he'd be delighted to. That was on BBC Radio Cumbria after the match.

If he thought he was good enough for our first team, I'm sure he'd be wanting to come back, not volunteering to stay with them!

By Jorge14 (195.93.34.9) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 11:25 pm: Edit

I think it'll do Matty more good to "learn his trade" for another month or two in the lower leagues...the problem is that he is needed a year to early, physically he isn't ready and maybe mentally he isn't yet...

Surely no one can support Zigor after today, once again Bazely was appalling, Osborn did his job which is to sit in midfield, Birch was shocking - considering he's having such a good season compared to Jorge's last two games, where has his confidence gone?

And you know what, despite being one of Colin Lee's biggest fans, I am beginning to lose faith quick. And whilst I don't think I'll do a complete about turn and get on the bandwagon, his substitutions left alot to be desired today - Vinny off for Lawrence (fair enough if he had an injury), Vincent for Aranalde when we've just lost a man and we are a goal down, and giving Hawley 30 seconds, way to build up his confidence Col!

A couple of bright points though...it wasn't in the league, Jorge is back...and a decent vocal following as well, which, apart from the abuse of people who come on the coach, sounded good today!

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 12:29 am: Edit

Yawn Yawn Yawn. We lost and its all down to not playing Fryatt.
Perhaps the next match we can have Fryatt and Hawley up front, with Bishop on the bench.
And Stanley and Oakes in midfield.
The Baggies will be sh*tting themselves.
Some people on this message board must WAKE UP.
Its getting boring, listening to certain people every other week asking for people to play, who ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR THIS DIVISION.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 12:31 am: Edit

Jorge14, I am sure some people can support Zigor, even after today, they have all season.
Ready for your response ucow.....

By Stu (195.92.67.69) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 01:12 am: Edit

Jorge14,

If Hawley was only given 30 seconds, does that not speak volumes about his view of Hawley?

My opinion was he was only in the 16 because we are short of numbers at the moment to be honest.

Then, as Aranalde was having a shocker, it was no surprise Vincent came on. You've already explained that sub yourself.

Lawrence for Samways... Samways is 35, we need to take care of him. Additionally, Lawrence also plays that holding role for Jamaica, bizarre it may seem, but he does.

By Moaning Saddler (217.44.83.40) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 01:47 am: Edit

Unfortunately, Lawrence's contribution and influence was zero - a total waste of a wage (this season's Simpson).

By J (82.37.172.104) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 02:04 am: Edit

Hawley is crap but he's the only striker on the bench, he should of been on 15 mins earlier

Zigor played rubbish, but we were supposed to be trying to win the game, to win the game that your losing you don't take off an attacking ld for a defensive 1 even if he's playing crap

Samayws was the only player wo could keep the ball, i know he's 35 but he's hardley an all action player, he hardley breaks a sweat.

I've watched walsall for 10 plus years, no manager has frustrated me more, watching walsall has become a chore, i dread it, we're the highest we've ever been and this is the lowest i've ever been as a fan. I almost dislike saturday afternoons. Sort it out Lee

By Fish (81.132.182.226) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 02:32 am: Edit

I'll support Zigor. He was one of the few to do little wrong today, yes he got substituted but you are wrong to try and imply that was because of his performance...He was injured. (He was also carrying a booking for an admittedly clumsy foul.)

...I think some of you let your bias get in the way of the facts.

Jimmy 6 Was stupid to give a poor ref the opportunity to send him off...not violent conduct in my opinion, however.

Bazeley 6 OK, just about (fouled for their 2nd)
Aranalde 7 Did little wrong, had a fair game in my opinion
Roper 7 Some good defensive work, lucky not to walk
Ritchie 7 Some fine tackles as per usual

Osborne 4 Ineffective - back to one his poorer performances - gave the ball away consistently
Samways 6 Best of the midfielders
Wrack 4 Swung over the cross for our goal - that was more or less his only contribution all game
Emblen 4 Ineffective - lumbering

Birch 4 Ineffective
Jorge 6 Good goal, but seemed to spend a lot of his time playing out on the right. Unfortunate to be sent off.


Subs:

Lawrence 4 Once again booed on to the pitch by quite a number of morons who claim to be 'proud to be Saddlers' Found himself playing wide right initially (unfortunately the only player who would have had the wit or vision to release him had been taken off to accomodate him).

Vincent 5 OK

Hawley 1 Should have been able to turn the game and go on an win it. There was plenty of time in the 60 seconds that he had on the field.

Referee 2 - Utterly appalling
Linesmen 2 - Ditto

OK we were crap, but Millwall were not a lot better. At least you hope that you can compete on a level playing field, but the Ref's decisions and those of his linesmen constantly favoured the home side. Not amusing to see his theatrical (first) booking of Jorge, poining around the pitch to 4 imaginary fouls that he had seen Jorge commit earlier.

I think that the must be some sort of vortex or Star Trek type of visual distortion that affects refs at the Den, they seem to imagine seeing lots of things (like non existent penalties, Mr Prosser).

Lee 3. Too many people are under performing and playing out of their natural position. Did anyone notice how the team ambled out on to the field, seemingly without a care in the world, for the second half?

At 2-1 down, I would have expected them to come out with their sleeves rolled up with some determination.

He needs to sort out Midfield...the area that he he has acquired most resources this season.


Overall: Almost as bad as Sheffield Utd last season.


By Booster Cogburn (82.37.27.71) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 02:37 am: Edit

Bloody hell J, 10 years? You're lucky!
I'm hugely depressed now as well but we used to be REALLY crap you know.
We lost at Barnet once I remember. Oh God and yes Yeovil in the cup in a replay. And Shrewsbury were in the same league as us. So were Chester, and Exeter.
But seriously, Lee has done wonders for this club but I'm beginning to think that he has taken us as far as he can.

By Esso (213.48.83.51) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 10:34 am: Edit

I loved the guy who came on Radio WM following a similar vein to the above posters asking why certain players were not playing, I quote " Colin Lee should be giving younger players a chance, we have got young Matt Gadsby who isn't even making the squad." Went on to say how bad the team had played, singled out several players who he felt were crap, critisised the referree and then when he was asked if he had been to the game said, " I couldn't get today I had to look after the babby"
I thought it spoke volumes.

By Stu (195.92.67.66) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 12:59 pm: Edit

Booster, Lee has taken us as far as any manager realistically can.

We are within spitting distance of the Top 10, thus the only real natural progression from there is the Play Offs.

Can you honestly see another manager coming in and being able to put us into a Play Off spot?

If Lee has taken us as far as he can, then it is essential he stays for another 18 months to ensure we are still in this position at the end of next season. At least that way, we are truly established. Because, at the moment, we are not an established 1st Division side, we are a 1st division side who have stopped up by the skin of our teeth in the last two seasons. Half a good season does not make us established (I know you didn't say we were though).

We need to establish ourselves first, people seem to think we can move at the speed of light. Unfortunately, it is a sign of Lee's success that people's expectations have rocketed.

At the beginning of the season, we all said we'd be over the moon with mid-table mediocrity. We have that, and yet we still want more.

My view is I'd rather be watching us now, that watching entertaining 4-3 and 3-2 matches away at Colchester frickin United...

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 01:45 pm: Edit

Its NOT Colin Lee that has taken us as far as he can. It is in fact Jeoff Bonser.
Thats the truth of the matter.

By different name (218.102.23.28) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 01:49 pm: Edit

Lee wants out, it seems (see other thread). Let him go. He does not have the quality for Div 1, and he is completely unable to instil any sense of discipline in his players. We have one of the smallest squads in the division, and they get themselves sent off left, right and centre. Good game plan, Col! And no, I am not anti-dingle.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Talk a bit of sense then! Its not CLs fault the players get sent off, its the players fault. Its they who see red on the pitch and cant control themselves, nothing at all to do with CL.
The only thing Lee can do is install a decent system for when players do get sent off. For example, do you treat Walkers sending off the same as Leitaos? Of course not, Walkers was total stupidity brought about by lack of self control.
If a players gets booked for mouthing off at the officials it should also be treated differently to a player that mis times a tackle.
There is a big difference in a variety of bookings, true its up to CL and the club to sort out an appropriate fine system, but actions on the pitch cannot be down to Lee.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 01:59 pm: Edit

Talk a bit of sense then! Its not CLs fault the players get sent off, its the players fault. Its they who see red on the pitch and cant control themselves, nothing at all to do with CL.
The only thing Lee can do is install a decent system for when players do get sent off. For example, do you treat Walkers sending off the same as Leitaos? Of course not, Walkers was total stupidity brought about by lack of self control.
If a players gets booked for mouthing off at the officials it should also be treated differently to a player that mis times a tackle.
There is a big difference in a variety of bookings, true its up to CL and the club to sort out an appropriate fine system, but actions on the pitch cannot be down to Lee.

By Stu (195.92.67.78) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 03:26 pm: Edit

Lee does not have the quality for Div 1? You have got to either (a) smoking too much waccy baccy or (b) on a different planet.

Would this lack of Division 1 quality, be the quality that has twice kept us in the division?

Would this lack of quality be the reason we are currently within 3 points of the Top 10 in Division 1?

The lack of quality that has attracted Samways, Ritchie, Merson (he wouldn't have come if he didn't like the bloke), Baird, O'Neill et al

Don't be soft... Anyway, that article is a re-hashed article from ages ago. Lee said that, or very similar, before the season started as well.

I read it as Lee making a comment about the lack of cash. Eg, look how far I've taken us with no money... Can we not push the boat out just a little bit to attract decent players (internationals)... If there isn't any cash, then maybe I've taken us as far as I can. Which is perfectly reasonable.

After all, how many managers could keep a team in Division 1 without spending a transfer fee in 2 1/2 seasons and with a squad that cost just £150,000?

By carl (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Fish i dont know what game u were watchin 2 give zigor 7??? and osbourn 5???
U should have gone 2 specsavers m8.
carl

By David Potter (65.65.180.174) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 06:06 pm: Edit

"Its NOT Colin Lee that has taken us as far as he can. It is in fact Jeoff Bonser.
Thats the truth of the matter".

Sheff, the books have to be balanced.

Jeff took it very personally when (for the first time, under his stewardship) the club announced a loss. It wasn't bad fiscal management, it was entirely due to a wealthy organization who refused to honour a contract!

It frustrates me to no end that clubs, who are in debt, some heavily, continue to spend money like it's going out of fashion!
We keep our house in order, other clubs should be forced (by the FA and FL) to do the same!

As for the game, I wasn't there. I listened on WM, another poor performance away from home - that's what it sounded like to me.

Colin needs to unload some "dead wood" at the end of the season, if not before.





By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 07:11 pm: Edit

David - I am just stating the truth. If Walsall want to move onto the next level that people on here seem to want, then we need to invest in the team, that is nothing to do with CL.
People seem to think that CL just wants us to survive in the first division season after season, this could not be further from the truth, Lee would love the money to invest in a decent few players to make us into a top 10 team.
All I am saying is that in order to do the above we will need someone other than JB in charge. JB has done a great job, but he has taken us as far as we can under him, this is a complete seperate issue to how far CL can take us.
Because with the correct investment, a lot further I would think, but this is not going to happen so people should realise the position we are in at the moment in the league is most likely the best we can do, if someone said to me at beginning of season that we have reduced budget we will finish 13th in the table I would have said thank you very much and took it.

By Exile (203.167.253.205) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 07:37 pm: Edit

I've said it before, but I'll say it again.

Who will buy the club? Bonser has said consistently that it is for sale to whoever wants it, but no one (repeat, NO ONE) has come forward.

Where will these mythical millions come from to build our team? Nowhere. We're still unfashionable and undesirable, so we'll have to learn to live with what we've got, and if that is a mid-table first division team on our resources, then I'm happy. As others have pointed out, what we have is better than playing Exeter away every season, or having the mighty Shrewsbury as our rivals. I'm grateful for this. If the town isn't, and no one comes to see the club, then maybe Walsall don't deserve it.

Cheers all
Exile


By Surrey Saddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 08:42 pm: Edit

In reality, we are doing fine at the moment. We are in 13th place in Div 1. Who would have believed that 5 years ago.
For us to progress we need to increase our fan base. At the moment, all we can attract in 8000 if we are lucky. This is simply insufficient to progress any further- i.e. into play off contention.
We are fortunate enough to be sited in a very large centre of population but the downside is that there are other bigger clubs around us.
For us to move on the plain and simple truth is that they (Wolves, Villa, WBA and perhaps Blues) need to move backwards- i.e. to Div 1 like ourselves. Then there is more chance of us picking up new floating supporters.
Of course we have no control over the affairs of these clubs and so the only way forward for us is to do exactly as we are doing now, i.e. quiet progress with new initiatives like the hotel and the new stand.
Then, who knows what lies in store for us in the future.
To change the subject rather- having watched us at Millwall yesterday I am amazed we are where we are. I hope its not a fluke!

By sj (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 08:54 pm: Edit

Sheff don't you think that Pete Waterman might buy the club? I think that it may happen, so keep him sweet.

By Neil Ravenscroft (82.37.184.218) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 09:21 pm: Edit

Waterman has said more than once that he isn't interested.

By rugeleysaddler (217.42.160.18) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 11:08 pm: Edit

Can't believe what I am reading on this sight.

This is the problem for the anti-Lee brigade- when we finish in our highest position in the club's history this season (and win a 4th sucessive year in this division) you will look like a complete bunch of prats.

We are vastly overachieving in relation to our average attendances and wage bill. Colin is doing a great job.

By rugeleysaddler (217.42.160.18) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 11:08 pm: Edit

Can't believe what I am reading on this site.

This is the problem for the anti-Lee brigade- when we finish in our highest position in the club's history this season (and win a 4th sucessive year in this division) you will look like a complete bunch of prats.

We are vastly overachieving in relation to our average attendances and wage bill. Colin is doing a great job.

By Dave Roe (81.131.187.174) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 11:39 pm: Edit

Posted by J earlier in this thread:-

"I've watched walsall for 10 plus years, no manager has frustrated me more, watching walsall has become a chore, i dread it, we're the highest we've ever been and this is the lowest i've ever been as a fan. I almost dislike saturday afternoons. Sort it out Lee"

Although I wouldn't go anywhere near as far as J. I must admit to agreeing with the general sentiment of the post. We are an established First Division team, we have the highest profile players we've ever had, we are likely to secure a fourth successive season in this division. Isn't life great eh ?

So then why isn't Bescot packed to the rafters ? Why does Bescot resemble a church more than a football stadium ?

Part of it I'm sure is down to the lack of promotion/relegation battles that have littered our recent history (no, I'm not desperately hoping for a relagetion battle). However I feel the main problem is the style and type of football the team plays.

We don't play a type of game that gets crowds excited. When was the last time we threw everything including the kitchen sink at the opposition ? The type of attacking, exciting football that gets fans onto their feet and singing and shouting. Sometimes our play is more closely related to chess than it is to football, it's hardly the variety that gets the pulse racing.

Just look back to the Reading game. Okay so Reading came out in the second half and had a go at us. We should have countered this by pushing back at them and taking the game to them. What do we do ? We retreat even further into our own half (and our shell). Instead of fighting back we played like a team that thought it didn't belong in this division and didn't deserve to win the game. This is a complaint that has followed Lee around. Many Wolves fans tell me there were many matches where Wolves were winning comfortably but ended up drawing or losing because Lee wouldn't allow them to press home their advantage.

I agree with the people that argue that we should be happy that we are a mid table first division team (I can't believe anyone would choose to be back in the lower reaches of the football league). I just feel it could be so much more enjoyable if we weren't forced to play this negative, sterile, scared brand of football that has become the norm down Bescot.



By Surrey Saddler (195.93.34.9) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 11:49 pm: Edit

Excellent post Dave- you have hit the nail on the head!

By Dave Roe (81.131.187.174) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 12:07 am: Edit

Thanks Surrey.

To be honest I'm expecting to take a bit of a slating for posting the above. Some people seem to think that the only way to show your support is by ignoring any negatives and only talk about the positives. Any talk of negative aspects is met with "Are you loyal ?" or "Prefer to be back in the third division would you ?".


By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 12:58 am: Edit

I also agree with Dave. At home we dont press home the advantage enough, I also think we still give certain teams too much respect e.g West Ham.
Away from home, we are also far too negative, we need to play as if we believe we can win.
One of Lees' faults is his tactical mind at times. Sometimes I dont think he knows when to hammer home the advantage and far to often settles for what we currently have - a slender lead.

By Geoff Whiting (195.92.168.171) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 02:29 am: Edit

How refreshing. The last ten or twelve posts all talking a great deal of common sense and nobody ripping anyone else to shreds for their opinions.

I think where we are now is great, beyond our wildest dreams five years ago, but at the same time I accept it's frustrating that we can't get that extra player, a decent striker, or adopt the tactics that us fans think are right, to press home the advantage we have in some games.

I guess we'd all be over the moon if we could get that striker, but it's not CL's fault he isn't given the money, nor Bonser's fault that he simply isn't wealthy enough to provide that kind of cash.

So we just have to be content, remain patient, and back the club while they carry on making progress steadily. When we have a bad game, we'll complain (within reason), that isn't a negative thing to do, it's just the reality of being a football fan, moaning one week, on top of the world the next. But while doing that, I think we message-boarders should try to be here FOR one another, not always at each others' throats.

Give me what we've got today every time, it's certainly the best time ever in my 45 years as a Saddlers supporter.

By freda (195.93.34.9) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 02:52 am: Edit

Excellent post Dave Roe.I was trying to analyse the gate problem myself,and thought perhaps it's just me,but Bescot don't exactly drag me there.I feel I'm sometimes going there out of some sort of duty.Spot on.

By Exile (203.167.253.205) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 04:17 am: Edit

I completely disagree with you, Dave.

Without ripping you to shreds (), it is not the football at the stadium that is keeping the crowds away, it is the general apathetic attitude, lack of interest (tautological but I don't care) and general all-round laziness of the average local that keeps the crowd down. Always has been, always will be. That is Walsall in a nutshell.

People who always go will generally always go - that is supporting a team. people who just turn up occasionally may or not be there next season - that is part-time suporting a team. Our success (and cheap STs) has turned a few floaters into regulars, but the vast majority of people in Walsall fall into the following categories:

1 - don't know we've got a football team
2 - think our team is in the third division
3 - already support club xxxxxxx (fill in the gap from Wolves, WBA, AV, ManUre, etc.)
4 - couldn't give a monkeys about footie
5 - might turn up if asked nicely

Turn (1) and (5) [and maybe some of 3] above into fans and we might get somewhere further than our current position, if not then it is most definitely back to Division 2 for us, sooner rather than later. I don't think we can get further in terms of fans without a real proactive club approach, and from what I've read (I don't live in Walsall), I haven't seen that seriously happening. Cheap season tickets don't count - that rewards the regulars, not the floaters.

As my clincher regarding the boring footie argument, can people please answer the following general footie knowledge question:

Q: Which very successful premiership team used to be taunted at every game (often by their own fans) with chants of "boring boring Arsenal", yet regularly sold out their ground by playing dull 1-0 brand football without entertaining anyone?

It is not WFC that has a problem, it is the town of Walsall itself. No disrespect to any of you regulars (or irregulars, or passive readers, or anyone else who visits this board), but the vast majority of people in Walsall do not give a •••• about the club. That is the attitude that needs changing, not the brand of football we play. I don't think the club has an effective strategy to change that, and to me, that is the biggest obstacle to our collective successful future.

We (the club and the fans) are not effective in changing people to our way of thinking, and the local council is even less effective in branding Walsall as other than an indistinct West Midlands suburb, so all of us are on to a losing cause to start with - there's no passion displayed anywhere IN Walsall FOR Walsall. Look at the origin of the railways for a good (if old) analogy - Walsall have been the same ever since (If anyone wants this story in full please ask and I will retell - it really is a fascinating slice of local history).

To close using your church analogy, Dave, I think the religion at the Church of Walsall is sound, but the preacher and his mates need to go and witness more effectively to the potential congregation!

Cheers all
Exile


By sj (195.93.34.9) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 08:55 am: Edit

Exile--The club needs to get the kids in. Give a bunch of tickets the club hasn't sold to a teacher who is paid by the club to take the kids to the game. This needs to be done over a season not just a one off thing.

By Esso (62.31.216.86) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 09:49 am: Edit

My wife is a teacher and the club do this on a regular basis but at her school there were two problems:
1. Only eight kids wanted to go.
2. None of the teachers were prepared to give up their Saturday afternoon except my wife who goes to the game anyway.
I imagine this is repeated across the schools in the borough so the club are trying but once again apathy seems to be the order of the day.

By Surrey Saddler (195.93.34.9) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 10:37 am: Edit

Exile, I am researching Walsall's local history at the moment. What is your story about the railway? Is it that Walsall's first station was at Bescot and passengers had to be ferried in to the George Hotel by horse drawn carriage? Let me know by e mail if you wish: [email protected]

By Stu (13.16.137.11) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 11:00 am: Edit

With all respect, I don't think we have the players capable of pressing teams like Reading pressed us. We have no energy to play that game, however attractive it may be, we simply don't have those players. For want of a better comparison, we're far more Liverpool than we are Arsenal/Utd, eg, far more patient and slow than attacking and good on the eye.

If we'd done that to Reading, they'd have murdered us. Why? They have pace, we don't. Reading didn't press us, they just defended 20 yards higher up the pitch. Why? Because they know they didn't have to worry about balls over the top as we've no pace, and didn't have to worry about players getting in around the back as we've no width.

Reading, on the other hand, had both of those in abundance. After the Reading game, I said my main criticism of Lee is that we are easy to play against. But we can't change that unless we make 2/3/4 new signings to give us those options.

Plus, if we did start 'going for it' and ended up struggling, then would you prefer excitement and constant relegation battles or our current state. Personally, I'd prefer our current state.

I see where your coming from, but now is a time to consolidate, not experiment in my view.

By popperpancake (81.134.148.7) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 12:42 pm: Edit

We have produced our best performances when we close the ball down quickly. You don't need fast or young players to close the ball down. We are at our worst when we allow the opposition to have time on the ball and dictate the pace of the game. I take your point about Reading defending higher up the pitch, but it is so frustrating to see players standing off for an entire half/match. I agree with Dave about our style, altho i don't think this is the reason Bescot isn't full every game. The reason for that is we haven't got many fans, never have had many have we? It really is as simple as that. We all know the reasons why...see above messages or various other threads. The crowds have increased over recent years, but i can't see them getting much higher to be honest. Most of the crowd are regulars plus people they manage to drag along. I agree with Dave and Exile. Brilliant.

By Ian Gittins (213.165.1.175) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 01:23 pm: Edit

We were pretty competent for the first 30 minutes at Millwall. Roper and Ritchie looked solid, we took our goal well, Millwall never had a sniff. Then they scored and our heads went down... and it was easy to see why.

Without Merson, we were lacking any creativity in midfield. Emblen is many things but he's not a ball-playing libero: he looked pedestrian and cumbersome. Osbourne never got started, Wrack was back to his ineffective, lightweight worst, and Vinny reverted to early '90s Vinny Sideways.

The real problems were up front, though. I don't think Leitao or Birch won a header or managed to hold on to possession once all afternoon. Birch was a real 2 out of 10 performance, and Jorge still seems second to every ball - our goal was just an absolute gift. Every ball pumped upfield was basically a pass to their defence. I bet they had 70% of the second-half possession.

The solution? If Fryatt isn't ready, and Hawley and Bishop aren't up to it, then we need to find a sharp, quick striker on loan, even if it means losing 4 or 5 fringe players to free up the funds. We have creative midfield players to come back in in Merson and Corica, but their efforts are wasted if there is nobody for them to play the ball through to.

I don't blame Lee for this - he's been busting a gut to sign a striker since the season started. But Millwall made it crystal clear that we need one now more than ever.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 02:03 pm: Edit

The problem we have at the moment is that we have got a squad of players and we cannot add to it.
Unless the club go against what they have been saying the last few weeks we CANNOT bring anyone in whatsoever, not even on loan.
This has been well documented in the papers.
Even if we loan out players, that money will NOT be made available to bring anyone in.
So we are basically stuck with what we have got.

By beechdale_Saddler (213.48.83.10) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 02:34 pm: Edit

Never Mind,
We would have been away to Telford if we had beat millwall.
No money spinner but local derby and would have guaranteed us a 5th round tie.

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Superb post, Exile, which I totally agree with. You only have to go to the pubs and talk to people around the town (I have done this through work) to realise that the vast majority don't give a monkeys about the club.

As for Saturday.

No excuse. A poor performance that led to an obvious defeat (obvious from when they equalised). Not one player warranted a rating of more than 6 and Jimmy's actions should be punsished as much as possible to set an example that we won't stand for that type of ill-discipline.

Re: Zigor, I agree he didn't have much of a game but I also agree with Fish that he didn't really do much wrong, so an average 6 would be fair.

So Merson's absence did not have the same effect as it did for a league game (3 wins out of 3), but as is typical for the home side in FA cup matches, Millwall clearly intended to go for the throat. His presence would not have made much difference at all, in my opinion.

So we've lost an FA cup match - big deal. It's hardly a first for us in the third round, is it? As long as the formula that CL applies continues to work in the league, I will be perfectly happy, particularly as if we carry on what we are doing now means we could finish 9th (assuming the other teams carry on as now) - and that is assuming we have a another run as per the start of the season (1 win in 8 games), which I doubt, so it could quite easily be better than 9th.

Dave - I have nothing agaisnt exploring/discussing the negative aspects of the team's performance etc. - that is part of what football chat is all about. It is the overall negative attitudes from people that I am sick of discussing - the 'plight' of our club, the 'cr*p manager' etc. etc. etc.

This is all absolute tosh - plight of our club? Crap manager? Our standing in the league without any money at all to spend should make a nonsense of such whinges.

Jorge - what abuse did you get for being on the coaches? I certainly didn't hear any abuse from the people around me - just amusing playful comments that because they came on the train (like myself) they would prefer it if those that did come on the coach didn't sing songs such as "we'll see you all outside" or "fight, fight, weherever you may be..." or "run away, run away...". My friends were party to that playful banter which has obviously been taken completely out of context, unless it came from another part of the stand (we were at the back to the far left of the stand as you face the pitch).

By Dave Roe (217.37.14.235) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 03:02 pm: Edit

Okay I agree with you re. the low crowds Exile. However I do honestly believe that the brand of football directly effects the level of atmosphere at the ground.



By Stu (13.16.137.11) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 03:13 pm: Edit

Dave,

Its the age old question though.

Exciting 2nd and 3rd division football or more patient 1st division football...

We don't have the players to play exciting 1st division football. And most of the teams below us also play a fairly similar style, ie, defend hard, attack when the chance comes.

I'd understand if everyone else played attacking exciting footbal, but I'm yet to see that off anyone except Norwich, Sheff Utd and Reading for 45 mins from memory. Even Albion are boring to watch, my girlfriends old man (Albion ST holder) despises Megson and wants him out, and they're 2nd!

By Geordiesaddler (193.195.190.230) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 03:49 pm: Edit

"Don't push too far
Your Dreams are china in your hand
Don't wish too hard
Because they may come true
And you can't help them
You don't know what you might
Have set upon yourself
China in your hand
Come from greed
Never born of the seed
Took life from a barren hand
On eyes wide
Like a child in the form of a man
A story told
A mind of his own
An omen for our time
We take a flight on the wings of fantasy
Then you push too far
And make your dreams reality
Yeah! china in your hand".

Lyrics from an 80's song that was number one when when Walsall were generally crap.

By Ian Gittins (213.165.1.175) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 05:09 pm: Edit

Which US singer, real name Henry Deutschendorf, had two UK hits - including a No 1 - then died seven years ago?

By HKSaddler (219.76.184.200) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 05:18 pm: Edit

John Denver

By STEELMASS (194.81.215.15) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Birch needs to be taken out of the side, his confidence is shot. plus I wish the midfield would decide where they were playing flpiin cahill was skating through without a challange, and wacker shold be given a five match ban after that charade,

DENNIS WISE IS A GNOME

By Ian Gittins (213.165.1.175) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Good work, HK Saddler.

I thought the Millwall manager gave a really good interview after Saturday's game - but there again, it's easy to be Wise after the event.

By Phil_G (195.92.168.166) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 07:53 pm: Edit

Carol Decker, mmmmm....

By SaddlerSteve (81.128.222.119) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 08:27 pm: Edit

I think you only need to look at the last few minutes of the Reading game when Merson came on and actually ran at them. Was probably the best chances we had of the half. I can agree with J's sentiments above.
Its frustrating as anything when the team defends as far back as they do. I'm not saying all out attack (although this would have been good when we were losing in the last 10 mins at Millwall) but defending on the edge of your own penalty area for large portions of the game is asking for trouble. The more attacking you let the opposition do, the more chances they'll get and the more likely they'll grab a goal. Its bloody simple.
I think Colin Lee has done a good job but some of his in-match decisions are baffling to say the least. What was the point of bringing Hawley on with seconds to go??
I don't get to many matches living here in MK but the matches i have been to have pretty much followed the same pattern. Great play from us until we get a goal then its trying to defend a 1-0 lead for the rest of the game.
It'd be interesting to know how many games we've gone into the lead this season and ended up drawing or losing cos of our negative football??

I'd hope that at my next game i'm not shouting stuff like "this way" "attack" "push out for f*cks sake!" for the last 20 mins, like i and many others around me were shouting at the Franchise and Wimbledon games.

Thats what i call bloody frustrating!!



By SaddlerSteve (81.128.222.119) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 08:28 pm: Edit

I think you only need to look at the last few minutes of the Reading game when Merson came on and actually ran at them. Was probably the best chances we had of the half. I can agree with J's sentiments above.
Its frustrating as anything when the team defends as far back as they do. I'm not saying all out attack (although this would have been good when we were losing in the last 10 mins at Millwall) but defending on the edge of your own penalty area for large portions of the game is asking for trouble. The more attacking you let the opposition do, the more chances they'll get and the more likely they'll grab a goal. Its bloody simple.
I think Colin Lee has done a good job but some of his in-match decisions are baffling to say the least. What was the point of bringing Hawley on with seconds to go??
I don't get to many matches living here in MK but the matches i have been to have pretty much followed the same pattern. Great play from us until we get a goal then its trying to defend a 1-0 lead for the rest of the game.
It'd be interesting to know how many games we've gone into the lead this season and ended up drawing or losing cos of our negative football??

I'd hope that at my next game i'm not shouting stuff like "this way" "attack" "push out for f*cks sake!" for the last 20 mins, like i and many others around me were shouting at the Franchise and Reading games.

Thats what i call bloody frustrating!!



By Stu (195.92.67.78) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 09:46 pm: Edit

Steve,

Your referring to one single move, its not as if he changed the complete match. He sent his first pass out for a throw in, his 2nd touch was to give the ball away and his 3rd touch was that run and chip.

Even that could be criticised, as Wrack was in a far much better position.

I wish people would accept that all teams lost matches, and one defeat does not mean we've a poor manager and world-class players on the bench.

Also, I don't think we did defend our own penalty box, Reading forced us to do that by playing so high up. As I keep saying, they could get away with because we have no other option. Sometimes the opposition force you to play a certain style.

By Dave Roe (81.131.28.11) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 10:38 pm: Edit

I take your points Stu, but Steve said that it was a common pattern in many games he's been to. I agree, sometimes it's like our very own version of Groundhog Day at Walsall. We score, we sit back, we concede an equalizer. I sometimes wonder if Lee has got a short term memory problem.

As for Merson in the Reading match, at least he ran at their defence, something that the others couldn't seem to muster between them. Perhaps if he'd come on earlier is 4th or 5th touch may have resulted in an undeserved winner.


By Fish (81.132.119.28) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 11:29 pm: Edit

But the thing was that Merson with ball at feet, facing the goal, moving forward caused problems for what I thought was a very poor Reading side, They were indeed awful at the back. OK so Merson didn't win the game in the 8 mins that he was on, but all the indications were there that he surely would have changed its pattern if he had have come on 30 mins earlier...and for the record Lee has admitted that he may have got it wrong.

By SaddlerSteve (81.128.147.223) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 12:44 am: Edit

The reason i said it seems we defend on the edge of the area a lot is cos as during the Reading game the midfield start backing off instead of putting some pressure on their players and aiding our defence.
And even when we got the ball we didn't seem to wanna go forward with the likes of Zigor passing it sideways or backwards. It was only when Merson came on that we seemed to have any inclination to go forward.
I think its hard for Jorge to get in good positions with the midfield being so far back hes stranded up there, no wonder he gets caught offside so much. And no matter who Jorge is paired with up front it seems he does all the running. Happened with Junior last season and its happening with Birch this season.
I have to say i don't agree with half the b*llocks that a certain section of the crowd chant but the "We're supposed to be at home!" chant towards the end of the Reading game i had to agree with.

Don't get me wrong i think Colin Lee has done well for us and we're in a good position in the league. But you get the feeling we could have been much higher with a bit more of an attacking outlook.

Someone mentioned earlier about Arse fans complaining about their 1-0 style a few years back. The difference is they could defend for long periods but we so often end up buckling under the pressure.


By Stu (13.16.137.11) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 09:40 am: Edit

Dave,

I think "Groundhog Day at Walsall. We score, we sit back, we concede an equalizer" is a bit excessive.

Whats our home record again? W6 D5 L2, exactly the same record as Albion. It shows we're tough to beat at home and that is also the joint 7th best home record in the division, all 6 teams with better records are above us, and every team below us is at least 4 points worse off.

Steve, I'm not disputing the fact that we defended our penalty box, we did. What I'm saying is that sometimes the opposition force you to do it.

Its no use saying "if Merson had come on..." because none of us know what would have happened if he'd come on half an hour earlier. It may not have worked and we have been over-run and lost 2-1... That's all hypothetical, which was the jist of my point.

His 4th or 5th touch may have scored the winner, it may also have lost possession like it did against West Ham and led to Reading scoring a winner... All 'ifs and buts' I'm afraid, which mean very little and always seem's quite strange to spend time discussing when the scenario has already happened.

If Jorge's looping header had gone in for 2-1, we wouldn't even be talking about Merson.


By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 01:20 pm: Edit

If Jorge's looping header had gone in, Stu! It's all ifs and buts, mate.

I have rarely had the feeling this season that we have purposely sat back on 1-0, and I certainly don't believe CL sends the team out in the second half with taht instruction - any manager will tell you that is a ludicrous tactic unless you have a Serie A defence!!

We have only lost two games at home all season and have a goals scored average of 1.53 per game (like our points record, the 7th best in the division) - this does not suggest that we sit back on leads purposely, otherwise we'd have a much lower average.

Of the 14 games in which we have scored first (home and away), we have ended up winning 9 of them.

We have lost 12 points this season from a winning postition.

7 of these lost points were at home, but if you take Norwich game out of the equation (we were just basically outclassed), that's just 4 points lost (Reading and Cardiff back in August) - hardly a habit!



By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 01:29 pm: Edit

I am actually more concerned about the inability to claw back opposition leads. We have only gained three points all season from the 10 matches where we have gone behind (3 draws, 7 defeats).

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 02:14 pm: Edit

The reason why we lose our shape when we go ahead is down the the negativity that Lee gives off to his players. It is obviously a tactic by Lee to protect a lead rather than trying to improve upon it.
Ive observed him at home games on the sidelines and if we do get a goal he resembles a scared rabbit staring at the headlights of an oncoming artic. All he does is whistle and shout muffled orders to players who neither understand or care.

Let Halsall do all that and just undermine his every word, that's what assistants are there for, to make you look better than you are. You got the right man in Mick. He looks like something from a crimewatch mugshot, robbing old ladies and cars obviously with him been a scouser and that.

Im actually starting to feel sorry for Lee, yes i actually pity him. He is a man well out of his depth. A word of advise Col, if you are feeling it's all too much at least start giving off signs that it's not.

For starters get yerself fitted with a decent suit instead of the shellsuit option that you are taking, and for god's sake get rid of the glasses mate or at least get em from specsavers. This will all help to improve your image and make you a little more interesting. Any advise you need Col on how to manage or perhaps some style tips, give us a shout, it's my forte.

By Dave Roe (217.37.14.235) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 02:26 pm: Edit

Well done C&D. We try to have a sensible discussion about the tactics of the team and you start having a go at Lee about his matchday dress sense. You really know how to win overe the doubters, don't you ?

Okay Delves, the statistics would tend to show it's not as common as first thought. So why then does it feel like a very common occurence ? I hear many people in the crowd saying things such has "Here we go again, trying to defend a 1 - 0 lead for 70 minutes".

I know three or four decent Wolves fans, I respect their opinion. All of them moaned about the same tactics at Molineux when Lee was the gaffer.


By WarsawPact (217.205.45.94) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 02:35 pm: Edit

A Song For Dummie:

"Keep right on round the bend in the road,
Keep right on round the bend..."

By Stu (13.16.137.11) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 02:55 pm: Edit

Dave,

Those same Wolves fans also forget that Lee guided them to 7th place for two successive seasons despite having to sell his best striker each season, Keane and then Akinbiyi (whom he bought to replace Keane).

They also forget he came out of the transfer market with a profit showing of £1.7m (even though he bought Robert Taylor for some stupid reason)...

When you consider the money wasted at Molineux over the years, he did a damn sight better than some fans give him credit for.

By Dave Roe (217.37.14.235) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Yeah, but they were all bored rigid with dull football served up to them. I always thought football was part of the entertainment business !


By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 03:26 pm: Edit

Ha Ha, your rhyme dosen't work warsaw. I see that you are trying to say im round the bend in some way but it is a rather poor attempt. You see im reading it from a literal sense and im obviously going to go round the bend in the road ain't i or i will crash. Silly boy!



By beechdale_Saddler (213.48.83.194) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 03:27 pm: Edit

Dave if someone offered me 7th place in division 1 from playing dull football all season round id take it. I dont think 4-3 thrillers (which we probably would lose) all season would be that good if you ended up going down. I am actually starting to like the man that at one stage I had a go as much as C&D (well not that bad) but IF we win at albion friday we could be 4 points from the play-offs and in 9th place. Even a draw will take us to 11th.
KEEP THE FAITH!

By WarsawPact (217.205.45.109) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 03:34 pm: Edit

It's not such a poor attempt if you take it as a song instead of a rhyme.

An alleged Bluenose such as yourself should know the tune.



By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 04:45 pm: Edit

The patient, building from the back type of football we are trying to play, and successfully on 17 occasions this season (yes, a draw is a relative success from Walsall's position), is going to seem dull to some compared to the gung-ho, get it forward as quickly as possible tactics we have used in previous less successful seasons at this level or in a division 2 that we were able to do that.

I, personally, find many of our games fascinating battles of a "chess" type football. Not everyone's cup of tea, though, I suppose.

By Stu (13.16.137.11) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 05:50 pm: Edit

Spot on Delves.

His record speaks for itself. Two 7th place finishes at a club who have wasted millions.

A place in Walsall's record books.

I go to Walsall wanting success on the pitch, not entertainment. If I want entertainment, I'll go to the cinema, a gig or watch a speedway match.

He can be as dull as he wants if it means we play West Ham and Sunderland instead of Carlisle and Darlington.

For me, all football matches are entertaining. Whethers its a 4-3 thriller or a 0-0 bore draw, as you don't know what your going to get till the 90mins is up. I enjoy a backs to the wall 1-0 win just as much a 5-0 thumping, I'm as miserable about losing a point with 10 seconds to go (Cardiff) as I am about seeing us play like a bunch of lemmings (Rotherham).

By popperpancake (81.134.148.7) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 06:09 pm: Edit

Let's be honest. Whether you like CL or not, there is absolutely no reason logically why he should be sacked. Is there? I'm not his greatest fan to be honest (not sure why, he just annoys me sometimes), but the job he has done / is doing has been exceptional. Look at the facts of the matter i.e results. Ask fans of other clubs what they think of our position (they'll probably say amazed). The one argument against CL that keeps coming out is we have a talented side this year, that could be doing better. True, but so do 15 -20 other side in the division. Maybe he annoys me because he says "if you like" too much.

By Neil Ravenscroft (82.37.184.218) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 08:03 pm: Edit

That's me, Stu and Delves then. I thought I was in a minority of one. I like the patient, passing game and find it far more entertaining than flinging it forward in hope.

By coxanddrummie (195.93.34.9) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 08:25 pm: Edit

Im not that bothered anymore what Lee does at Walsall i just want rid of the man. He could take us to back to back euro cups within five years and id still want shut of him because he keeps sending me to sleep. Looking at his face and listening to his voice just takes the gloss off everything.

Im glad someone has noticed the "if you like" thing, it's pretty hard not to. Im subscribed to saddlers world and have endured interviews that have more power than valium. That guy that does the interviews Danny Mole well he's hardly Paxman is he? his name epitomizes his character. He asks things like " well a poor result on saturday but a chance to correct it this saturday with a home game" or " well a great result on saturday and a chance to build on it this saturday" Ive paid 30 odd quid for this drivel Mole.

Why don't you start asking real questions like " we were absolutely crap on saturday Colin, so what you gonna do about it and if you say "if you like" then im gonna thump yer.
or
"When are you gonna get rid of that toady Halsall and while yer at it get a makeover because you dress like a tramp and talk like a man on his deathbed so sort it now.

Come on saddlers world, lets get it sorted out because your little tea party set up is like watching the antiques roadshow.


By Soporific Saddler (203.167.253.205) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 08:44 pm: Edit

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

By Manchester Saddler (213.106.179.33) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 09:16 pm: Edit

Coxanddummie - is there anyone you actually like at the club?

By Dave Roe (81.131.151.63) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 10:36 pm: Edit

Why do people only see things as mutually exclusive ? According to some on here you can either be dull and successful or entertaining and unsuccessful, but not a mixture of the two. Also, there appears to be no middle ground between the current chess-like football and "flinging it forward in hope". I've never called for a long ball, pump it up field type of game. I just long for a Waslall team who look to play early balls forward without feeling the need to play 25 sideways passes first.

I would also welcome a Walsall team who look convinced that they belong in this division, instead of the scared, 'almost resigned to losing before a ball is kicked' team that show up all too often.


By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 12:18 am: Edit

The thing that annoys me, as Dave rightly says above, the players sometimes dont believe we belong in this division. When we play teams like West Ham, it seems they are fightened of a reputation, because thats all it is.
The only team I have seen at Walsall this season who are any great shakes are Norwich City. And even then we took the lead!
All the rest we have nothing to fear from, and I honestly think we do fear them at times, we need the players to rid this from their heads!

By SaddlerSteve (81.128.190.178) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 12:59 am: Edit

Agree totally with Dave on this.

We're not saying that it should be all out attack throwing caution to the wind but in the same vein it shouldn't be some of the boring and negative crap we see for the majority of most games.

A lot of the time it seems we don't want to move forward and it gets passed around midfield which by this time the opposition defence have regained their positions and are ready for us.

I'm not saying bringing Merson on would have guaranteed a goal. As you say its all ifs and buts.
But what was clear to see as soon as he came on was that the whole attitude of the team changed and players wanted to move forward. He was running at them and encouraging others to get forward. Surely more chances will be created for us if just one midfielder gets forwards and encourages the attackers ahead of him to move up.
This has to be better than having Jorge run round chasing long balls all game???
All we're saying is we want a bit of spirit there.

The GA gets quite loud when we play the attacking football. But for most games its no wonder theres no atmosphere in the crowd when we're penned in our own half!


By Dave Roe (81.131.36.12) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 01:13 am: Edit

I don't know we can expect an atmosphere to be created when we play this ultra-slow football. It doesn't get the crowd whipped into frenzy does it ?

I'm not suprised you like the slow game Neil, afterall you are a cricket fan aren't you ? That's the only sport slower than our play !


By beechdale_saddler (62.31.216.97) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 01:34 am: Edit

Totally disagree with most of you. I dislike Colin for his constant "erm" this "erm" that. But the man has taken us from we'll settle for a point at home to west ham. WE WONT! Colin has brought Vinny,Merson,Ritchie and to an extent Corica into a team that 3 years ago had Andre and Simpson in our midfield. I dont care if we are "dull" the fact of the matter is we are a prolific goalscorer from a play-off spot, and lee cant get one of them without cash. Most of you will have to settle for our "dull" football because i can guarantee you, Colin will be here for another few years yet. Id rather be winning 1-0 against Reading(away) than losin 4-3.We hardly ever win a 4-3 type game, remebr Rotherham,Crystal Palace and Preston last season?
How can you call our football dull. Weve had many great matches under colin. Palace, Rotherham and Preston last season at home(all over 5 goals a game), Forest and WBA this season.
These are the best times to support walsall, so actually SUPPORT them.
Keep up the good work colin but leave some erms out.

By SaddlerSteve (81.128.190.178) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 01:42 am: Edit

We do support the club. Please don't say we aren't allowed to criticise the tactics of Colin Lee. He has undoubtably been the overseer of some great performances this season but at times it seems as if he has no idea what tactics he should employ especially if we go behind late in a game.

Please don't lump us in the same category as that ignoramus C&D.

I want Lee to stay and i think for the most part he has done a good jo but i think sometimes he needs to encourage a bit of passion in the side. (and not the kind of passion that saw Wakka sent off)

By beechdale_saddler (62.31.216.97) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 01:53 am: Edit

No steve i wouldnt label you like that twerp C&D but I just wonder what some of you fans actually want colin to do. Get £400,000 from somewhere so we can shove every ball in the direction of out star striker?. If we continue to be dull and not fire enough "passion" but still remain where we are Ill be happy. We are living way above our ourselves so im going to enjoy it why it lasts because you know one day we will be playing southend and Peterboro on a cold tuesday night.

By Stu (13.16.137.11) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 09:27 am: Edit

Dave,

Can you name me one team in this division who mixes entertaining football with success?

Personally, I can't think of many. Possibly Norwich? Sheff Utd purely for a Neil Warnock factor of having 5 strikers on a pitch when he is losing. Can't really think of anyone else that has looked really exciting this season.

What about the Premier Division? Arsenal and Man Utd... Anyone else? Have you seen Charlton, Bolton et al this season?

We tried 'exciting' football early last season, we were very good at conceding more than we scored. We were very good at throwing leads away as well.


By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 10:24 am: Edit

Exactly, Stu. And when circumstances have allowed, we have produced exciting, successful football - WBA & Forest.

By Stu (13.16.137.11) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 10:51 am: Edit

Hit the nail on the head 'when circumstances have allowed', so you should therefore realise that teams won't let us play that style of football because they will know what the outcome will be.

Thus, teams rush us and don't give us any time, they defend as high up the pitch as they can and they stop us playing.

You've answered your own argument.

By Clown Lee (81.135.14.128) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Yes, got some of you pretty well fooled.

By SheffieldSaddler (195.93.34.9) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 01:47 pm: Edit

Clown Lee - Havent you got a real name. Your posts are totally pathetic. Just grow up silly boy.

By Dave Roe (217.37.14.235) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 02:38 pm: Edit

"We are living way above our ourselves so im going to enjoy it why it lasts because you know one day we will be playing southend and Peterboro on a cold tuesday n

[Andy]

By Geordiesaddler (193.195.190.230) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Dave you sound like me on this board 2 years ago. Problem is I think the substance of your argument is about 2 years out of date. The club is not being "dragged down" as it was 2 years ago because we occupy 13th spot in the 1st division. The signings made this year have been hugely ambitious. The constraints that people refer to are there no matter how much you dislike them. To show ambition to ge beyond where we are now means you seriously think we are ready to challenge for the play offs to the Premiership? Do you seriously think that anything about this club is yet ready for that? The size of the ground, the club's infrastructure, the financial base, the level of support, etc. etc.

Two years ago we were staring at instant relegation to the 2nd division for the third time running because we couldn't sign players like Martyn O'Connor and Steve Chettle - that represented a "little club mentality". To be where we are now does represent a club living above its station because of our turnover, our 6,500 fans, and our 11,300 ground. The club has just sustained by its own standards a significant financial body blow from which it is trying to recover whilst still progressing on the park, We are achieving that, quite remarkably. If we finish say top ten this year we will have had a fantastic season, we will be 9th with a win on Friday so what's the problem?



By Dave Roe (217.37.14.235) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 04:56 pm: Edit

The problem is the number of fans who are waiting for the inevitable relegation to the lower reaches of the football league.

We've got fans saying it, we've got the manager saying it in the press. If enough people believe it then it will be more likely to come true.


By Richard Hall (146.227.1.10) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 05:53 pm: Edit

Not sure that Dave is 2 years out-of-date. His essential point is that the atmosphere at BS is worse now than it has been for some time. It is difficult to assess exactly why that is but the best atmospheres this season (when we have backed the team rather than focusing on some other club) have occured when we have won in a derby or gone for the jugular - West Brom and Notts Forest.

Our performances away from home suggest a total lack of confidence, and an inability to play to our strengths, and most of the time CL backs this in his pre- and post-match comments. His notion that we are punching above our weight in what is a poor division (when we have a decent squad) adds to a perception that we do not think that we should be in this Division.

What Dave seems to be arguing for is a more positive attitude. That if we shed an essentially defensive mind-set then we have a great opportunity here to push towards the play-offs. The Division is tremendously compact, and as many have stated there is little to chose between many of the teams.

However, the perfomances from the start against Stoke and Derby, the second-halves against Cardiff and Reading, the retreat once Fuller had scored for Preston, the lack of creativity against Palace and West Ham, and the get out-of-jail-free card played against Bradford at home, are all telling. I recognise that in this Division we will face good teams who can pressure us on our own patch. But we are very one-dimensional at home, and appear unable to finish teams off. In these games our "patient passing game" is almost non-existent when the opposition ups-the-ante and fails to break down well-organised teams. Too often we revert to "flinging it forward in hope", generally down the channels. In nine home games we have failed to score or only scored once - makes you wonder what went wrong against Forest.

Perhaps it is just me (and maybe Dave), but I do think that there are a lot of missed opportunities this season and that we have a great opportunity here. So should I be happy with 13th? Well at the end of the season, if we have tried the best we can, then the best we can is good enough (5 points IG for that one). But it would be a great disappointment to look back on the poor performances that have littered this season and wonder what if.

This is not a call for throwing caution to the wind financially or tactically. What I would like is for CL and the team to back themselves. There are possibilities for us within the current financial restraints, within the current financial management approach and with the current squad.

"Do you seriously think that anything about this club is yet ready for that?" I know, we don't have a cash turnstile and it could all go pear-shaped! But as so many people have stated, we are a very financially prudent outfit - I'm sure that the Board have contingency plans. The scary thing is that this is a poor division and yet we are in with a chance. But as Dave has alluded above, we need to back ourselves a little more.

By Ian Gittins (81.132.224.114) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 06:19 pm: Edit

Optimistic by Radiohead, Mr Hall. I also reckon the Karma Police would have a field day around these parts...

By Geordiesaddler (193.195.190.230) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 06:23 pm: Edit

I've not heard Lee say that, and I havn't heard many fans say that either. I don't think you can blame long standing fans for having one eye on the lower divisions, it is afterall where we've spent 99% of our history. Most of the moaning comes from people who think we're underachieving, and that baffles even more. I subscribe to the lets relax and enjoy what's happening mentality. Not because I fear a swift return to the lower divisions, or because I havn't got ambitions or hopes of even better things in the future, but simply because this is the best its ever been. Like Stu said watching Walsall is always enjoyable if your a Walsall fan, that's why we do it. Watching Walsall in the highest position they've ever been seems to be causing some fans no end of psychological problems. I find it bizarre and really amusing to be honest. Maybe Wallet should set up a helpline and charge premium rates for those in need of emotional support in these strange uncharted waters of division 1.

By Geordiesaddler (193.195.190.230) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 06:44 pm: Edit

Two other things that also baffle me... maybe I'm easilly baffled... why do people constantly refer to this division as being poor, it isn't any better or worse than any other first division in my opinion. Second, Cash flow is the fuel of expanding business - we simply do not posess it because of the size and nature of the club at present.

The players can back themselves to the extent that they think they are world beaters, but if you cant afford to go out and buy even one proven division one striker it doesn't matter what they believe. We could have the greatest defence (and we have a very decent one) and the greatest midfield(decent again) but if you cant put the ball in the net you aint gonna win football matches week in week out. The reason we can't go out and sign a Huckerby or a Goater is because they won't come for 2-3 grand a week when they can get 2 or 3 times that at clubs with 2 or 3 times our support and income. Hence we battle on with Birch and Leitao doing their best - that is where we are at and its not going to change under the present circumstances, its not lack of ambition its lack of cash.

I could walk past an estate agents window tonight and see a fantastic opportunity for investment at £200k, I might know that in 5 years that investment will probably be worth £1m. But if all I've got is £27 quid to go for a few pints and a fish supper them I'm gonna miss out arn't I? Is that really a missed opportunity? Well maybe it is, guess I better go and drown my sorrows. Good grief Penelope Cruz is in the UK and I havn't had a shag yet .... another chance gone.... life's sh!t really!

By JPD (203.18.34.5) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 04:08 am: Edit

I was reading that fans at Cambridge Utd had raised 100,000 quid in 4 weeks to help their club.
What has been raised by Walsall fans?
Anyone interested in some fund raising for a good cause?

By Delves Saddler (194.73.163.108) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Totally agree Geordie.

Stu: "Hit the nail on the head 'when circumstances have allowed', so you should therefore realise that teams won't let us play that style of football because they will know what the outcome will be.

Thus, teams rush us and don't give us any time, they defend as high up the pitch as they can and they stop us playing.

You've answered your own argument"

You must have read my post thinking it was Dave's - I was agreeing with you, mate (as I have done throughout this thread) and answering dave's argument, not my own????!!!

As I have said, I advocate and enjoy the patient chess type football, interspersed through the season, 'when circumstances allow' it to be successful, with the exciting, attacking, football that we got against WBA and Forest.

By Dave Roe (217.37.14.235) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 02:16 pm: Edit

Perhaps the times 'when circumstances allow' have been the times when for whatever reason we have really believed in ourselves and believed we belong in this division.

Everybody seems to think we can only play attacking football when the opposition allow us to. Perhaps the main stumbling block to these type of performances is our own mindset, and not the tactical decisions of opposition teams.


By beechdale_saddler (62.31.216.215) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 02:21 pm: Edit

Dave you cant say that this division is as good as it was years ago. You had a league that had big money spenders, Blackburn, Wolves, Fulham, Man City, Bolton, Charlton, Ipswich, B'Ham and to a certain extent Norwich. All these clubs were very hard to beat and always had a better squad on paper to anyone else in this division. But NOW theres only WBA,Norwich and Sheff Utd that actually have far better squads than anyone else in this league.
Its better for us that money has gone out of the game because everyone around us is losing good players. But ill settle for 13th.


By Dave Roe (217.37.14.235) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 02:40 pm: Edit

I'm a bit confused Beechdale, I never mentioned anything about how good (or not) this division is.

I'm trying to say that the biggest enemy we face now, this season, is our own self belief. On the couple occasions this season that our inferiority complex has vanished we have left teams in our wake. The problem is we quickly revert to a self doubting side who are too scared to try anything different.


By Emilia Evangelou (163.1.60.62) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 03:49 pm: Edit

Dave, you are right about the lack of self belief by our players. But it is also the same for the fans. We know we are punching above our weight having regard to our finances/infrastructure and deep down expect the worst sooner or later. That's why many fans are agitated - we desparately want to become a 'regular' Div 1 team. If we were stone cold certainties for mid table for the next 3/5 years then fans would feel more relaxed. As it is we are worried *hitless that we will continually struggle then fall and this is not helped by the perception of how the team are performing at present. Now if we could be regular Div 1 for the next few years and build up the team/finances/infrastructure then go for the big one.......

By Purple Pete (81.133.135.85) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 08:25 pm: Edit

Call it lack of belief from the players if you like but i think that when teams play high up the pitch like Rotherham and Reading did the problem with the players is lack of ideas. This makes the midfield congested and it is difficult to play fancy football to start an attack.

Normally you would use this as a perfect opportunity to counter attack with a long ball behind the defence and a pacy striker running on to it with only the keeper to beat but as we all know it would not work.

It must only be a matter of time before CL is ready for this system and when teams try to use it adjusts the formation to cope. For instance if we played Zigor in his true position on the left wing with Wracky on the right wing and Jorge and Emblem up front we would have loads of room down the wings to play a long ball into, pacey wingers to latch onto them to put crosses into the strikers who would be arriving on the next bus. The defence would have to drop deeper back to counter this otherwise the wingers would cut inside and take a shot themself.

Anybody agree?

By Stu (195.92.67.68) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 10:11 pm: Edit

Pete, that is exactly what I've been saying for the past god knows how long.

I have one disagreement, you referred to Wracky and Zigor as pacy wingers? They are not pacey, they are just fairly average. We need real pace, the pace that can make uup 3 or 4 yards, or the pace that can quickly put someone 6 yards ahead of a centre half for the long ball.

It doesnt matter if that pace is up front and we just play direct balls, ior if that pace is on the wing and we look to utilise the channels. Its the one thing that we need above anything else in my view.

Ironically, it wants a winger like Ainsworth or a striker like Byfield.

By SaddlerSteve (81.128.31.29) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 06:57 pm: Edit

I think this is a great thread. I mean i disagree with what a lot of people have been saying and don't think we should let other teams dictate how we play....

.... however one thing we can agree on is we all want the same thing. We wanna see the Saddlers winning and Colin Lee doing well.
We all agree C&D is mentally inbalanced as he seems to want to see the club suffer just so he can be right about Colin Lee.
We're having a good football debate here instead of the slanging matches of recent months.
Tis bloody great.

And for the record Stu i am being swayed to your way of thinking. Still could do with putting a few extra tackles and harrying more in midfield while they are running at us though!!

By Purple Pete (81.134.45.14) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 07:42 pm: Edit

I know you have Stu and I agree that we need the type of player you mention. But we are unlikely to get them short term and the point I was making is that to make up for that we could play the system i mentioned, use the width of the pitch and make it difficult for teams to push forward so much because they would be wary of leaving us so much space.
I agree that Wrack & Zigor are not over pacey but they are quick enough and skillful enough in attack to cause problems.

By Exile (219.88.33.197) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 10:14 pm: Edit

1-0... bugger

By Exile (219.88.33.197) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 10:15 pm: Edit

Wrong thread... bugger!