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Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Reports and reaction from the 2017-2018 season as Walsall finished 19th in League 1
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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:42 pm

philthesaddler wrote:Entirely predictable result.

When a team with little or no ambition and a Physio as manager come up against a team with ambition and a proper manager, there’s only gonna be one winner.

We have no plan, no physicality (despite Whitney always banging on about Passion etc), and we have no quality - I’ll give anyone who can name a worse starting midfield line up than Ismail, Chambers, Edwards, Morris from the last 20 years a £10 McDonald’s voucher.


Wasn't Paul Warne the fitness coach at Rotherham before being appointed?

Rotherham are up there simply because they have a top 6 budget for this league, just look at the collection of strikers they have.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:43 pm

I thought that was better. We created some gilt edged chances and a draw against a decent side wouldn't have been unreflective. Our goal was magic.

The difference between the two sides was that theirs were very assured and their forwards busy. We were completely the opposite. I thought Kory and Guthrie had very jittery games and Agyei looked leggy. We maybe looked sharper around the edges but it's those big moments in the box that count. Then as we chased the game towards the end Whitney's changes made an equaliser less and less likely.

As Scott says above, a few of us were suggesting they had dropped a bollock by scoring so early per Whitney world logic. If only we'd had a man sent off to give us a double-boost.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:11 pm

Walsallone wrote:A somewhat undeserved defeat.


:shock:

When does what you wanted to happen and what actually happened get mixed up in your mind?

It was bloody awful, cluless dross and WHITNEY OUT NOW!!!

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:21 pm

According to the BBC report....

The Saddlers had a golden chance to go ahead in the 40th minute as Erhun Oztumer latched on to Daniel Agyei's through ball and cut inside a defender, only to roll a shot inches wide of Marek Rodak's near post.


The hosts could have levelled for a second time but substitute Simeon Jackson fluffed straight at Rodak from inside the six-yard box after an Ajayi error gifted him the ball.


Didn't go so don't know how accurate those descriptions are but generally when you have two good chances either side of the Rotherham second you can lay claim to deserving a draw at least.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:29 pm

tinned wrote:
Walsallone wrote:A somewhat undeserved defeat.


:shock:

When does what you wanted to happen and what actually happened get mixed up in your mind?

It was bloody awful, cluless dross and WHITNEY OUT NOW!!!


Tinned - l think I have to agree more with your assessment of that match - we never looked like winning that game. We desperately need a creative midfielder (preferably one who doesn’t spend 95% of his time on the treatment table), a left-winger and a striker to cover Tyrone’s departure- Agyei can go back to Burnley based on today’s performance.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:48 pm

We don't have any divine right to beat Rotherham and I don't expect us to just turn them over - but the manner of the performance was so disheartening. Whitney doesn't appear to have learned anything since becoming manager - we are still making stupid defensive mistakes, he still blames defeats on lack of desire rather acknowledging the obvious.

We didn't lose because of lack of desire/passion/fight, we lost because we were tactically outclassed in every area of the pitch. We played for most of the first half with a right-winger playing in the number ten position and a number ten playing on the right wing - presumably because Oztumer has been marked out of every game for a while and it was an attempt to get him more involved. It didn't. We persisted with hoofing the ball up to Agyei despite him not winning anything in the air (and it not working against Bristol the other day). A goal down in a home game and we have all eleven players inside our own box to defend corners - what does he think is going to happen should we win the ball and the players do what they're instructed to do and hoof it up the field? Oh, surprise, the ball comes back at us. We were sitting far too deep at 1-1 and then didn't really do anything different until the last few minutes with the desperation tactic of Guthrie up front (and Mitch Candlin playing in central midfield!) You couldn't make it up.

Whitney is a terrible, terrible manager. This squad is capable of playing so much better. If I didn't have a season ticket I wouldn't be going to games any more. I won't be buying an early bird if Whitney's still the manager when they're released, and it will be the first season since the mid-1980s that I won't be buying a season ticket - unless there's a change. I'm sure the change will come just before the early birds go on sale, because so many other people have said similar things.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:50 pm

SoccerHQ wrote:According to the BBC report....

The Saddlers had a golden chance to go ahead in the 40th minute as Erhun Oztumer latched on to Daniel Agyei's through ball and cut inside a defender, only to roll a shot inches wide of Marek Rodak's near post.


The hosts could have levelled for a second time but substitute Simeon Jackson fluffed straight at Rodak from inside the six-yard box after an Ajayi error gifted him the ball.


Didn't go so don't know how accurate those descriptions are but generally when you have two good chances either side of the Rotherham second you can lay claim to deserving a draw at least.


Oztumer should have at least got his on target and Jackson definitely should have scored, but there's no reason to believe Rotherham wouldn't have just gone up the gears again and got themselves another, had either of them gone in.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:08 pm

Bristol Fan wrote:We don't have any divine right to beat Rotherham and I don't expect us to just turn them over - but the manner of the performance was so disheartening. Whitney doesn't appear to have learned anything since becoming manager - we are still making stupid defensive mistakes, he still blames defeats on lack of desire rather acknowledging the obvious.

We didn't lose because of lack of desire/passion/fight, we lost because we were tactically outclassed in every area of the pitch. We played for most of the first half with a right-winger playing in the number ten position and a number ten playing on the right wing - presumably because Oztumer has been marked out of every game for a while and it was an attempt to get him more involved. It didn't. We persisted with hoofing the ball up to Agyei despite him not winning anything in the air (and it not working against Bristol the other day). A goal down in a home game and we have all eleven players inside our own box to defend corners - what does he think is going to happen should we win the ball and the players do what they're instructed to do and hoof it up the field? Oh, surprise, the ball comes back at us. We were sitting far too deep at 1-1 and then didn't really do anything different until the last few minutes with the desperation tactic of Guthrie up front (and Mitch Candlin playing in central midfield!) You couldn't make it up.

Whitney is a terrible, terrible manager. This squad is capable of playing so much better. If I didn't have a season ticket I wouldn't be going to games any more. I won't be buying an early bird if Whitney's still the manager when they're released, and it will be the first season since the mid-1980s that I won't be buying a season ticket - unless there's a change. I'm sure the change will come just before the early birds go on sale, because so many other people have said similar things.


This reads as if the squads were evenly matched and we're just a short step from scaling league one, but I don't think that is the case. A massive part of the defeat today was that their team are simply better than ours. Do you honestly think we could make a sustained challenge on the playoffs with a managerial superstar. I don't.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:27 pm

SaigonSaddler wrote:
Bristol Fan wrote:We don't have any divine right to beat Rotherham and I don't expect us to just turn them over - but the manner of the performance was so disheartening. Whitney doesn't appear to have learned anything since becoming manager - we are still making stupid defensive mistakes, he still blames defeats on lack of desire rather acknowledging the obvious.

We didn't lose because of lack of desire/passion/fight, we lost because we were tactically outclassed in every area of the pitch. We played for most of the first half with a right-winger playing in the number ten position and a number ten playing on the right wing - presumably because Oztumer has been marked out of every game for a while and it was an attempt to get him more involved. It didn't. We persisted with hoofing the ball up to Agyei despite him not winning anything in the air (and it not working against Bristol the other day). A goal down in a home game and we have all eleven players inside our own box to defend corners - what does he think is going to happen should we win the ball and the players do what they're instructed to do and hoof it up the field? Oh, surprise, the ball comes back at us. We were sitting far too deep at 1-1 and then didn't really do anything different until the last few minutes with the desperation tactic of Guthrie up front (and Mitch Candlin playing in central midfield!) You couldn't make it up.

Whitney is a terrible, terrible manager. This squad is capable of playing so much better. If I didn't have a season ticket I wouldn't be going to games any more. I won't be buying an early bird if Whitney's still the manager when they're released, and it will be the first season since the mid-1980s that I won't be buying a season ticket - unless there's a change. I'm sure the change will come just before the early birds go on sale, because so many other people have said similar things.


This reads as if the squads were evenly matched and we're just a short step from scaling league one, but I don't think that is the case. A massive part of the defeat today was that their team are simply better than ours. Do you honestly think we could make a sustained challenge on the playoffs with a managerial superstar. I don't.
I can't help thinking that with a bit of proper managerial direction we could be turning draws into wins and losses into draws, we do have some talented players at the club albeit only a few, i think someone said last week that Tyler isn't injured he just doesn't want to risk getting injured playing for clueless whitney, we need a plan and we need to stick to it but it doesn't look like the players have belief in the way we are playing at the moment, and are just going through the motions :|

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:44 pm

Sorry SaigonSaddler, I have to disagree. I don't think that I have seen a really good team down at the Bank's all season. We could, with a game plan and organisation be challenging for the play-offs. It's a really poor division and the squad we have should be doing better. With a manager with some tactical nous and a pattern of play we would have a much better home record. Just my opinion.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:46 pm

chunkster wrote:
SaigonSaddler wrote:
Bristol Fan wrote:We don't have any divine right to beat Rotherham and I don't expect us to just turn them over - but the manner of the performance was so disheartening. Whitney doesn't appear to have learned anything since becoming manager - we are still making stupid defensive mistakes, he still blames defeats on lack of desire rather acknowledging the obvious.

We didn't lose because of lack of desire/passion/fight, we lost because we were tactically outclassed in every area of the pitch. We played for most of the first half with a right-winger playing in the number ten position and a number ten playing on the right wing - presumably because Oztumer has been marked out of every game for a while and it was an attempt to get him more involved. It didn't. We persisted with hoofing the ball up to Agyei despite him not winning anything in the air (and it not working against Bristol the other day). A goal down in a home game and we have all eleven players inside our own box to defend corners - what does he think is going to happen should we win the ball and the players do what they're instructed to do and hoof it up the field? Oh, surprise, the ball comes back at us. We were sitting far too deep at 1-1 and then didn't really do anything different until the last few minutes with the desperation tactic of Guthrie up front (and Mitch Candlin playing in central midfield!) You couldn't make it up.

Whitney is a terrible, terrible manager. This squad is capable of playing so much better. If I didn't have a season ticket I wouldn't be going to games any more. I won't be buying an early bird if Whitney's still the manager when they're released, and it will be the first season since the mid-1980s that I won't be buying a season ticket - unless there's a change. I'm sure the change will come just before the early birds go on sale, because so many other people have said similar things.


This reads as if the squads were evenly matched and we're just a short step from scaling league one, but I don't think that is the case. A massive part of the defeat today was that their team are simply better than ours. Do you honestly think we could make a sustained challenge on the playoffs with a managerial superstar. I don't.
I can't help thinking that with a bit of proper managerial direction we could be turning draws into wins and losses into draws, we do have some talented players at the club albeit only a few, i think someone said last week that Tyler isn't injured he just doesn't want to risk getting injured playing for clueless whitney, we need a plan and we need to stick to it but it doesn't look like the players have belief in the way we are playing at the moment, and are just going through the motions :|


We haven't got the strength in depth and the defence is one of the most flimsy I've seen in years. Also attacking midfield consists of basically one player trying to do something epic - and often succeeding. The strike force is also not the best I've ever seen, although I think Baka is improving nicely. This isn't a top six team.

Just trying to be realistic.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:49 pm

Sadsfan wrote:Sorry SaigonSaddler, I have to disagree. I don't think that I have seen a really good team down at the Bank's all season. We could, with a game plan and organisation be challenging for the play-offs. It's a really poor division and the squad we have should be doing better. With a manager with some tactical nous and a pattern of play we would have a much better home record. Just my opinion.


We'd need 5-6 more players - the capacity to defend isn't all coaching, teams actually need some quality - although some defenders have more ability going forward.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:51 pm

Disappointing result. Not unexpected, but disappointing.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:55 pm

SaigonSaddler wrote:
Sadsfan wrote:Sorry SaigonSaddler, I have to disagree. I don't think that I have seen a really good team down at the Bank's all season. We could, with a game plan and organisation be challenging for the play-offs. It's a really poor division and the squad we have should be doing better. With a manager with some tactical nous and a pattern of play we would have a much better home record. Just my opinion.


We'd need 5-6 more players - the capacity to defend isn't all coaching, teams actually need some quality - although some defenders have more ability going forward.


I'll also add that a more coherent attacking strategy would improve results, that was obvious today. There's no question of the effort from most too. Our wages are one of the lowest in the division and I think it's showing halfway through the season.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:12 pm

I was due to travel down to Plymouth tomorrow morning. I have decided not to bother, losing £220 in hotel costs in the process.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:16 pm

We've always had a poor budget, we've seen better than this with a poor budget before. There is no plan, there's no pattern of play. Poorly organised, tactically inept.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:24 pm

Sadsfan wrote:We've always had a poor budget, we've seen better than this with a poor budget before. There is no plan, there's no pattern of play. Poorly organised, tactically inept.


You're right. If you could see we had a plan and a pattern of play but it just wasn't coming off for us most fans would stick with the team and manager. There is no plan or pattern, it's just 11 individuals making it up as they go along, because there is no coherent leadership from the manager.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:27 pm

Sadsfan wrote:We've always had a poor budget, we've seen better than this with a poor budget before. There is no plan, there's no pattern of play. Poorly organised, tactically inept.


No argument about the budget, but would you care to list the players who would be part of a sustained promotion push / Championship mainstays? Ozzy obviously, but who else?

That's the difference to previous teams.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:34 pm

Walsall_Casual wrote:I was due to travel down to Plymouth tomorrow morning. I have decided not to bother, losing £220 in hotel costs in the process.
And do you know what is so frustrating about that? because of our inconsistent results so far, we will probably put in the performance of the season and win :| if you have paid for the hotel mate i would still go, at least you could have a decent night out even if the football may be shite :wink:

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:49 pm

chunkster wrote:Only got ourselves to blame, we created enough chances to win that game against a mediocre Rotherham side, who's only threat in the second half was a basketball player that must be on loan from the LA Lakers :|


Who's the player out of interest? Kieffer Moore, who's scored a billion goals at this level since joining them on loan? Looking at an image he looks 6ft 6 in.

Do you do Whitney's scouting Chunky? :D

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:52 pm

SaigonSaddler wrote:
Sadsfan wrote:We've always had a poor budget, we've seen better than this with a poor budget before. There is no plan, there's no pattern of play. Poorly organised, tactically inept.


No argument about the budget, but would you care to list the players who would be part of a sustained promotion push / Championship mainstays? Ozzy obviously, but who else?

That's the difference to previous teams.

Take your pick, sometimes you don't need star players, just 11 decent players who know their jobs and know the plan. I'm not saying we could win the league, but we could be pushing for the play-offs. Ray Graydon managed it.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:58 pm

SoccerHQ wrote:
chunkster wrote:Only got ourselves to blame, we created enough chances to win that game against a mediocre Rotherham side, who's only threat in the second half was a basketball player that must be on loan from the LA Lakers :|


Who's the player out of interest? Kieffer Moore, who's scored a billion goals at this level since joining them on loan? Looking at an image he looks 6ft 6 in.

Do you do Whitney's scouting Chunky? :D
:lol: ye that's him :wink: and at 5ft 2 i wouldn't be seen in the same room as him :mrgreen: and as for scouting for whitney, no that accolade goes to the UPA animation studio's mr magoo :lol:

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:59 pm

Sadsfan wrote:We've always had a poor budget, we've seen better than this with a poor budget before. There is no plan, there's no pattern of play. Poorly organised, tactically inept.


I agree with this. We have no pattern of play, no defined way of trying to score: if we are going to play hoof-ball, we need a decent target man - that ain’t Agyei. If we are trying to play a fluid passing game then we need quick forwards who can get behind the opposition’s defence - we don’t have that type of player if Tyrone is injured/doesn’t want to play for us. We have a poor squad and desperately need reinforcements. We might have to sacrifice Ozzie to bring in 3 new players: a creative midfielder, a left winger and a striker. Whitney needs to show that he can develop a discernible game plan, or he should be sacked. I’d give him no more than 10 games to turn it around.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:09 pm

SaigonSaddler wrote:This reads as if the squads were evenly matched and we're just a short step from scaling league one, but I don't think that is the case. A massive part of the defeat today was that their team are simply better than ours. Do you honestly think we could make a sustained challenge on the playoffs with a managerial superstar. I don't.


No, and it's a perfectly fair point. But I'd like a manager who could get the best out of the resources at his disposal. Horrible unwatchable hoofball crap is OK I suppose if it gets you results, but if you lose anyway then seriously there's nothing worse. I can't stand it.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:12 pm

tinned wrote:
Sadsfan wrote:We've always had a poor budget, we've seen better than this with a poor budget before. There is no plan, there's no pattern of play. Poorly organised, tactically inept.


You're right. If you could see we had a plan and a pattern of play but it just wasn't coming off for us most fans would stick with the team and manager. There is no plan or pattern, it's just 11 individuals making it up as they go along, because there is no coherent leadership from the manager.


Quite. I don't agree with the personal insults against Whitney, but the professional ones I find hard to argue against. Struggle to see how anyone who watches us play could possibly defend him. The football is absolutely dire, it's just the pits. We might not be world beaters but we've got a better squad than we had under Mullen or Hutchings, but we're playing at least as badly.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:15 pm

Sadsfan wrote:
SaigonSaddler wrote:
Sadsfan wrote:We've always had a poor budget, we've seen better than this with a poor budget before. There is no plan, there's no pattern of play. Poorly organised, tactically inept.


No argument about the budget, but would you care to list the players who would be part of a sustained promotion push / Championship mainstays? Ozzy obviously, but who else?

That's the difference to previous teams.

Take your pick, sometimes you don't need star players, just 11 decent players who know their jobs and know the plan. I'm not saying we could win the league, but we could be pushing for the play-offs. Ray Graydon managed it.


Get real, we have literally a single championship ready player and a couple more with potential somewhere along the line. We've flogged our youth inheritance for the first offers and to service the rent.

I'm not suggesting for one moment that the players don't give 100% and I respect their contributions, but looking at the team objectively, it would get beaten by any of our first 11 from any time since Hibbit's days. The league may be weak, but suggesting that we haven't gone backwards is naive. And comparing this team to the one Graydon inherited and later assembled is a farce.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:20 pm

Bristol Fan wrote:
SaigonSaddler wrote:This reads as if the squads were evenly matched and we're just a short step from scaling league one, but I don't think that is the case. A massive part of the defeat today was that their team are simply better than ours. Do you honestly think we could make a sustained challenge on the playoffs with a managerial superstar. I don't.


No, and it's a perfectly fair point. But I'd like a manager who could get the best out of the resources at his disposal. Horrible unwatchable hoofball crap is OK I suppose if it gets you results, but if you lose anyway then seriously there's nothing worse. I can't stand it.


Yes I think some other managers could improve the playing strategy, aesthetic quality and get us more points. Some may not, and some may achieve something roughly similar. However it appears that a few fans are labouring under the delusion that to remove Whitney would instantly allow this team to alight seamlessly to the upper reaches of league one, and beyond.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:27 pm

Well Saigon, having been to every home game I can tell you that the best team I have seen are Bradford (3-3 draw) . The rest of the teams haven't been great, and not had lots of good players, what I have seen are well-drilled teams who have a system, and play to it. If we were the same we could have picked up 10-15 extra points at home - Whitney has been out-thought a lot of the time by better managers. Ray Graydon picked up a fair few failures and journeymen and moulded them into a team.read interviews with players from that time, they all had a job and knew what it was. Would Graydon do better with this squad of players? I would argue that he would.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:32 pm

SaigonSaddler wrote:
Bristol Fan wrote:
SaigonSaddler wrote:This reads as if the squads were evenly matched and we're just a short step from scaling league one, but I don't think that is the case. A massive part of the defeat today was that their team are simply better than ours. Do you honestly think we could make a sustained challenge on the playoffs with a managerial superstar. I don't.


No, and it's a perfectly fair point. But I'd like a manager who could get the best out of the resources at his disposal. Horrible unwatchable hoofball crap is OK I suppose if it gets you results, but if you lose anyway then seriously there's nothing worse. I can't stand it.


Yes I think some other managers could improve the playing strategy, aesthetic quality and get us more points. Some may not, and some may achieve something roughly similar. However it appears that a few fans are labouring under the delusion that to remove Whitney would instantly allow this team to alight seamlessly to the upper reaches of league one, and beyond.

Not at all, we could be within touching distance of the play offs not leading the league. Some fans appear to be labouring under the delusion that other managers have not done better working under the same constraints of the Bonser regime.

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Re: Rotherham United (H) Dec 30th, 3pm

Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:37 pm

Sadsfan wrote:Well Saigon, having been to every home game I can tell you that the best team I have seen are Bradford (3-3 draw) . The rest of the teams haven't been great, and not had lots of good players, what I have seen are well-drilled teams who have a system, and play to it. If we were the same we could have picked up 10-15 extra points at home - Whitney has been out-thought a lot of the time by better managers. Ray Graydon picked up a fair few failures and journeymen and moulded them into a team.read interviews with players from that time, they all had a job and knew what it was. Would Graydon do better with this squad of players? I would argue that he would.


I was also at the Bradford game. Very impressive until they flagged horribly and have been inconsistent for lengthy spells in the league. I think Rotherham are better all round. I agree that another manager could improve the results, just not as much as you seem to think and have the club zoom up to their ordained place. Do you realise how much Rambo would stand out in our team now? How about Lightbourne? Even bloody Chris Marsh.

Can you list the players ready for the Championship? Please answer this just so I can get a handle on your measure of our capabilities.

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