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Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Reports and reaction from the 2017-2018 season as Walsall finished 19th in League 1
El_Nombre
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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:45 am

Welsh_Saddler wrote:
El_Nombre wrote:Comes to something when we now call taking a tumble winning a penalty. Last time I checked this was still a contact sport. That doesn't mean the players decide when there has been enough contact for there to be a foul, the ref does.


Yes, but as I stated elsewhere, there is contact and there is contact .... a shoulder charge when two (or more) players are tussling for ball possession on the ground is quite acceptable, and always has been. But when the ball is absent, any contact is against the laws of the game. So the slightest hand-contact which deprives an opposition player of his intended action is a foul, and if the referee sees it he will award appropriately. The difficulty for the referee is deciding whether it was an actual push or a "Ronaldo" dive. And, don't forget, he has to do this in real time only - no action replay for him.

Trying to look at the Plymouth Argyle penalty objectively, there was evidently contact - Leahy did push the Argyle player in the back. OK, he then made a meal of the push, sprawling on the grass as though he had been shot ... but as has been said, that's the modern game for you!

Correct full time result though... :wink:


Nobody is denying there is contact. But it's up to the referee to decide how much contact is reasonable. It's not just touch a player in the box and it's a foul. When a player influences the referees decision by "taking a tumble" that is simulation, end of. Whether there was contact or not.

If you take that to the nth degree then we will be having 20 penalties a game. Every corner will be a penalty. It was generous to call it a push.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:48 am

El_Nombre wrote:
Welsh_Saddler wrote:
El_Nombre wrote:Comes to something when we now call taking a tumble winning a penalty. Last time I checked this was still a contact sport. That doesn't mean the players decide when there has been enough contact for there to be a foul, the ref does.


Yes, but as I stated elsewhere, there is contact and there is contact .... a shoulder charge when two (or more) players are tussling for ball possession on the ground is quite acceptable, and always has been. But when the ball is absent, any contact is against the laws of the game. So the slightest hand-contact which deprives an opposition player of his intended action is a foul, and if the referee sees it he will award appropriately. The difficulty for the referee is deciding whether it was an actual push or a "Ronaldo" dive. And, don't forget, he has to do this in real time only - no action replay for him.

Trying to look at the Plymouth Argyle penalty objectively, there was evidently contact - Leahy did push the Argyle player in the back. OK, he then made a meal of the push, sprawling on the grass as though he had been shot ... but as has been said, that's the modern game for you!

Correct full time result though... :wink:


Nobody is denying there is contact. But it's up to the referee to decide how much contact is reasonable. It's not just touch a player in the box and it's a foul. When a player influences the referees decision by "taking a tumble" that is simulation, end of. Whether there was contact or not.

If you take that to the nth degree then we will be having 20 penalties a game. Every corner will be a penalty. It was generous to call it a push.


it was a push watch the replay.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:59 am

Mazza01 wrote:
El_Nombre wrote:
Welsh_Saddler wrote:
El_Nombre wrote:Comes to something when we now call taking a tumble winning a penalty. Last time I checked this was still a contact sport. That doesn't mean the players decide when there has been enough contact for there to be a foul, the ref does.


Yes, but as I stated elsewhere, there is contact and there is contact .... a shoulder charge when two (or more) players are tussling for ball possession on the ground is quite acceptable, and always has been. But when the ball is absent, any contact is against the laws of the game. So the slightest hand-contact which deprives an opposition player of his intended action is a foul, and if the referee sees it he will award appropriately. The difficulty for the referee is deciding whether it was an actual push or a "Ronaldo" dive. And, don't forget, he has to do this in real time only - no action replay for him.

Trying to look at the Plymouth Argyle penalty objectively, there was evidently contact - Leahy did push the Argyle player in the back. OK, he then made a meal of the push, sprawling on the grass as though he had been shot ... but as has been said, that's the modern game for you!

Correct full time result though... :wink:


Nobody is denying there is contact. But it's up to the referee to decide how much contact is reasonable. It's not just touch a player in the box and it's a foul. When a player influences the referees decision by "taking a tumble" that is simulation, end of. Whether there was contact or not.

If you take that to the nth degree then we will be having 20 penalties a game. Every corner will be a penalty. It was generous to call it a push.


it was a push watch the replay.


With all the force of a small toddler. I've seen it mate.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:06 am

It's not a penalty. Referees need to use their common sense when applying the rules of the game. It's FAR closer to simulation than being a foul in the box so the referee should have acted accordingly and booked the player.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:07 am

SaigonSaddler wrote:
Welsh_Saddler wrote:But it's the "hands of the defending players" that are the problem. As tinned rightly points out, we don't want football to morph into a non-contact sport, but traditionally it's never been that .... the shoulder charge between two players in a tussle for possession has always been part of the game. But even the slightest hand-push off the ball (as in this example) is, in the strictest terms, against the laws of the game. It then becomes the referee's decision to judge the severity of each individual occurrence.


The level of contact compared to the resulting sprawl was total and utter simulation.

"Attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation)", must be sanctioned as unsporting behaviour which is misconduct punishable by a yellow card. The rule changes are in response to an increasing trend of diving and simulation.

What amuses me is why is this, its ok for players to rip each others shirts of their backs,wrestle each other,scratch,kick and bite each other at set plays in the box and no penalty,yet in open play,if you slightly push someone or the ball accidentally hits a defenders hand its a penalty.... :roll:

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:08 am

Remember that Tom Daley, Britain's top diver, is from Plymouth. It's a local tradition, I tell you! :mrgreen:

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:34 am

El_Nombre wrote:
Welsh_Saddler wrote:
El_Nombre wrote:Comes to something when we now call taking a tumble winning a penalty. Last time I checked this was still a contact sport. That doesn't mean the players decide when there has been enough contact for there to be a foul, the ref does.


Yes, but as I stated elsewhere, there is contact and there is contact .... a shoulder charge when two (or more) players are tussling for ball possession on the ground is quite acceptable, and always has been. But when the ball is absent, any contact is against the laws of the game. So the slightest hand-contact which deprives an opposition player of his intended action is a foul, and if the referee sees it he will award appropriately. The difficulty for the referee is deciding whether it was an actual push or a "Ronaldo" dive. And, don't forget, he has to do this in real time only - no action replay for him.

Trying to look at the Plymouth Argyle penalty objectively, there was evidently contact - Leahy did push the Argyle player in the back. OK, he then made a meal of the push, sprawling on the grass as though he had been shot ... but as has been said, that's the modern game for you!

Correct full time result though... :wink:


Nobody is denying there is contact. But it's up to the referee to decide how much contact is reasonable. It's not just touch a player in the box and it's a foul. When a player influences the referees decision by "taking a tumble" that is simulation, end of. Whether there was contact or not.

If you take that to the nth degree then we will be having 20 penalties a game. Every corner will be a penalty. It was generous to call it a push.


This.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:36 am

Pedagogue wrote:Remember that Tom Daley, Britain's top diver, is from Plymouth. It's a local tradition, I tell you! :mrgreen:


I think he may have some serious competition. :D

Makes Tommy Black's effort at Palace seem amateurish. :x

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:55 am

El_Nombre wrote:
Welsh_Saddler wrote:
El_Nombre wrote:Comes to something when we now call taking a tumble winning a penalty. Last time I checked this was still a contact sport. That doesn't mean the players decide when there has been enough contact for there to be a foul, the ref does.


Yes, but as I stated elsewhere, there is contact and there is contact .... a shoulder charge when two (or more) players are tussling for ball possession on the ground is quite acceptable, and always has been. But when the ball is absent, any contact is against the laws of the game. So the slightest hand-contact which deprives an opposition player of his intended action is a foul, and if the referee sees it he will award appropriately. The difficulty for the referee is deciding whether it was an actual push or a "Ronaldo" dive. And, don't forget, he has to do this in real time only - no action replay for him.

Trying to look at the Plymouth Argyle penalty objectively, there was evidently contact - Leahy did push the Argyle player in the back. OK, he then made a meal of the push, sprawling on the grass as though he had been shot ... but as has been said, that's the modern game for you!

Correct full time result though... :wink:


Nobody is denying there is contact. But it's up to the referee to decide how much contact is reasonable. It's not just touch a player in the box and it's a foul. When a player influences the referees decision by "taking a tumble" that is simulation, end of. Whether there was contact or not.

If you take that to the nth degree then we will be having 20 penalties a game. Every corner will be a penalty. It was generous to call it a push.


Agree with El_Nombre 100%.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:11 pm

Great result. Well done the lads and credit to JW. Dare I say, he obviously knew what he was doing!

Well taken goals. The confidence is visibly growing. Shame about the soft penalty. As a few have said, there was contact and the lad's sold it to the ref. Funny thing is, if you watch the replay he gives Leahy a good shove on the edge of the area in the build up. He's been clever and got what he was playing for. Was never getting near the header. Never mind. Got the 3pts and we'll hope that's a lesson learned for Luke.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:15 pm

I hate this modern belief (started by pundits and then accepted by most fans) that goes along the lines of "the player felt the contact so was in his rights to go down".

NO THEY'RE NOT! They should only "go" down if they are unable to stay upright. "Going down" shouldn't be a decision for the player to make, it should be purely in line with the laws of physics.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:17 pm

tinned wrote:I hate this modern belief (started by pundits and then accepted by most fans) that goes along the lines of "the player felt the contact so was in his rights to go down".

NO THEY'RE NOT! They should only "go" down if they are unable to stay upright. "Going down" shouldn't be a decision for the player to make, it should be purely in line with the laws of physics.


I love it when they go down .... oh, hang on.... :oops:

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:17 pm

Welsh_Saddler wrote:
tinned wrote:I hate this modern belief (started by pundits and then accepted by most fans) that goes along the lines of "the player felt the contact so was in his rights to go down".

NO THEY'RE NOT! They should only "go" down if they are unable to stay upright. "Going down" shouldn't be a decision for the player to make, it should be purely in line with the laws of physics.


I love it when they go down .... oh, hang on.... :oops:


Filthy beast!

At your age as well :lol:

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:38 pm

If that was a penalty the game should have had about 6 penalties to each side. Shirt pulling in the box. Pushing. Diving.
The ref is inconsistent. :twisted:

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:47 pm

tinned wrote:I hate this modern belief (started by pundits and then accepted by most fans) that goes along the lines of "the player felt the contact so was in his rights to go down".

NO THEY'RE NOT! They should only "go" down if they are unable to stay upright. "Going down" shouldn't be a decision for the player to make, it should be purely in line with the laws of physics.


Absolutely agree. The problem is that when a player is honest and does try to stay on their feet when a foul is committed, even a stumble or clear slowing down of the player resulting in a loss of possession or goal scoring opportunity is never acknowledged by refs with penalties. I think the problem is the officiating, not necessarily the players. Honesty is never ever rewarded even if a foul is committed yet simulation often is. It's a shame.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:23 pm

scott_powell wrote:
tinned wrote:I hate this modern belief (started by pundits and then accepted by most fans) that goes along the lines of "the player felt the contact so was in his rights to go down".

NO THEY'RE NOT! They should only "go" down if they are unable to stay upright. "Going down" shouldn't be a decision for the player to make, it should be purely in line with the laws of physics.


Absolutely agree. The problem is that when a player is honest and does try to stay on their feet when a foul is committed, even a stumble or clear slowing down of the player resulting in a loss of possession or goal scoring opportunity is never acknowledged by refs with penalties. I think the problem is the officiating, not necessarily the players. Honesty is never ever rewarded even if a foul is committed yet simulation often is. It's a shame.


Exactly. Unfortunately the way football is now that unless you go down, almost certainly the foul won't be given. It's too hard for refs with 22 players, managers + coaches and every fan trying to con and influence them.

Personally the only way I see this being solved is video referees being given more responsibility because they're the only ones with the tools to make an informed decision on whether it's a dive or not.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:46 pm

Penalty:
Image

Penalty:
Image

Penalty:
Image

Booking at least:
Image
Image

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:19 pm

The foul on Jackson in the first picture was more of a penalty than the one which was given but he didn't fall and tried to stay on his feet!!! I remember Dean saying after playing MK Dons a few years back that he didn't train or encourage his players to con referees. It is a line I agree with but sometimes you do wonder whether it is right today's game.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:44 pm

I suggest non of you had a better view than ConningtonSaddler.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:45 pm

scott_powell wrote:I suggest non of you had a better view than ConningtonSaddler.


Actually you are right. I probably did have the best view. :lol:

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:16 pm

DonningtonSaddler wrote:
scott_powell wrote:I suggest non of you had a better view than ConningtonSaddler.


Actually you are right. I probably did have the best view. :lol:


You and the ref were conned!! :lol:

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:02 pm

scott_powell wrote:
DonningtonSaddler wrote:
scott_powell wrote:I suggest non of you had a better view than ConningtonSaddler.


Actually you are right. I probably did have the best view. :lol:


You and the ref were conned!! :lol:


You obviously haven't bothered reading my posts before commenting have you? :roll:

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:55 pm

tinned wrote:I hate this modern belief (started by pundits and then accepted by most fans) that goes along the lines of "the player felt the contact so was in his rights to go down".

NO THEY'RE NOT! They should only "go" down if they are unable to stay upright. "Going down" shouldn't be a decision for the player to make, it should be purely in line with the laws of physics.

Totally agree with this.

Pundits don't help and nor do many commentators who appear to sing from the same hymnsheet that a player has a right to fall to the deck if any contact has been made, saying the cheat has been "clever" rather than chastising this kind of play.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:15 pm

DonningtonSaddler wrote:
scott_powell wrote:
DonningtonSaddler wrote:
scott_powell wrote:I suggest non of you had a better view than ConningtonSaddler.


Actually you are right. I probably did have the best view. :lol:


You and the ref were conned!! :lol:


You obviously haven't bothered reading my posts before commenting have you? :roll:


Well I was just having a bit of fun but I suppose you have a better view of this entire situation.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:47 pm

scott_powell wrote:
DonningtonSaddler wrote:
scott_powell wrote:
DonningtonSaddler wrote:
scott_powell wrote:I suggest non of you had a better view than ConningtonSaddler.


Actually you are right. I probably did have the best view. :lol:


You and the ref were conned!! :lol:


You obviously haven't bothered reading my posts before commenting have you? :roll:


Well I was just having a bit of fun but I suppose you have a better view of this entire situation.


Sometimes it gets lost in translation. :wink:

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:09 pm

https://youtu.be/A_ayDgFojNk

5 mins 40 odd secs.

He stupidly pushes him IMO...penalty.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:42 pm

Gripper wrote:https://youtu.be/A_ayDgFojNk

5 mins 40 odd secs.

He stupidly pushes him IMO...penalty.


The whole lot was good camera work ........................whoever did it !!!!.



( I appreciate .................. in the trade "good camera work " is probably not the correct terminology )

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:31 am

Gripper wrote:https://youtu.be/A_ayDgFojNk

5 mins 40 odd secs.

He stupidly pushes him IMO...penalty.


100%

I can only presume that those who think this was not a penalty have not seen the footage...

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:03 am

Mazza01 wrote:
Gripper wrote:https://youtu.be/A_ayDgFojNk

5 mins 40 odd secs.

He stupidly pushes him IMO...penalty.


100%

I can only presume that those who think this was not a penalty have not seen the footage...


Oh not this. "You disagree so you can't have actually watched".

There's barely any force there from any angle I have seen. That video above, the one on YouTube. The replays on Channel 5.

Says a lot that not a single Plymouth player appeals. The player played for the contact and there wasn't enough there for his dive. Simple.

That must happen 20 times a game, there is as much force in that as the Jackson one somebody posted above.

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Re: Plymouth Argyle (H) League One, Sept 2nd 3pm

Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:39 am

Mazza01 wrote:
Gripper wrote:https://youtu.be/A_ayDgFojNk

5 mins 40 odd secs.

He stupidly pushes him IMO...penalty.


100%

I can only presume that those who think this was not a penalty have not seen the footage...


That is not enough force to push a professional athlete to the floor. He played for it. It is simulation and a yellow card. When anything other than physics determines a player falling in the box, it is simulation. Don't give me the "He felt contact so went down" argument either because it's bollocks. It's just a of sticking up for simulation in football and a reason the game it going tits up. Yes, Luke is silly putting hit hands on his back but in no way is there enough force there to warrant a foul. There would literally be 20 penalties a game.

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