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London Fire

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shrewsbury saddler
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London Fire

Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:17 am

Apparently, the residents have been blogging for years about what a fire-trap the building was. Heads should roll, but I doubt they will. No doubt there'll be a load of platitudes from the authorities.

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Exile
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Re: London Fire

Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:07 am

Read that as well. I really feel for the victims here, and agree that someone very senior, not a flunky, should end up in jail if any shortcomings become evident during any inquest.

Link to previously raised concerns from local residents: https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.c ... ower-fire/

ShyTallKnight
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Re: London Fire

Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:13 am

Lessons have been learnt.

leics_saddler
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Re: London Fire

Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:58 pm

It's got to be the most terrifying scenario.
I can't imagine what those poor people went through.

Looking forward though...
It's very interesting to read that the building was refurbished in recent years.
The professional team involved had better hope that vandalism was a major factor in the fire.

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boringteacher
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Re: London Fire

Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:47 pm

Appalling, truly horrible.

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chunkster
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Re: London Fire

Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:04 pm

brings back memories of the twin towers :( just can not imagine what those poor people have gone through. and looking at some of the pictures there seems to be similar tower blocks? get them out now, raise the lot to the ground and build some decent homes for these poor people

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Re: London Fire

Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:27 am

It is reported that the refurbishment cost £9 million.
A 24 floor storey building had electrical wiring, water systems, heating and windows replaced for a total cost of £9 million?
That seems a little cheap to me, and this, in the richest borough in the country.

If, and it's a big if, the primary cause of this disaster was down to the refurb, then someone should end up in jail. More than likely that someone will, but it will be some mid ranking flunkey that gets the rap

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Exile
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Re: London Fire

Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:48 am

The cost of refurb is a direct function of desire to do a good job vs available funds.

The government has been depriving every council of central funding allocation since their election. For political reasons, Labour authorities have suffered more, certainly, but it's been across the board. Whether K&C could raise rates, or want to, to make up for this is pertinent given their wealthy base.

The relaxation of the law that allows private organisations to run public housing can't help, because there's then an extra level of governance between available money, and spending; one which demands a profit be extracted.

The refurb has to comply with law. Whether it did, or whether the contractor cut corners, or not, will be interesting.

Apparently the fire service struggled to give the building a code of compliance. again, law will determine.

The report will no doubt be diffuse, but regardless, many people have died because of errors in law, implementation, or budget (either lack of, or desire to allocate).

To those who suggest political point scoring is inappropriate at a time like this, I've made my post in the most considered language possible, and I'd add that if you cannot question anyone with power at a time when it clearly fails, when should you?

It was interesting to see Corbyn sharing the pain of survivors while May had another stage-managed photo-op with some scrubbed-up fire fighters, avoiding the victims completely. That was shameful for a Prime Minister. Hiding from the consequences of her party's austerity.

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Whitters
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Re: London Fire

Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:49 am

Interesting comments Exile.

A couple of years ago I lived in a unit for 6 months or so.
It was on the third floor of a block and one of the things I considered was the likelyhood of a fire in the block.
I really couldn't see how a fire could spread if say a fridge "exploded".
The unit was solidly made and maybe carpets, kitchen units, wardrobes, beds etc could catch fire but the fire would be unlikely to spread to adjoining units.
So really, people in an adjoining unit could possibly sit out the fire without danger.
I don't think I'd choose to do that but maybe it could be done.
If, however, there was external cladding which was flammable, then there would have been a much greater chance of fire spreading if the cladding caught fire.

Now, as I understand it the cladding on the London Fire building was flammable - very much so and also difficult to put out once on fire.
I'm no expert at all, far from it.
But what if the cladding was the prime cause of the fire spreading?

So, getting back to the Exile post, what has the cladding got to do with austerity measures and governments/councils?
Maybe they could have just painted the structure - and maybe this would have been cheaper than cladding?

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Re: London Fire

Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:04 am

Whitters wrote:Interesting comments Exile.

A couple of years ago I lived in a unit for 6 months or so.
It was on the third floor of a block and one of the things I considered was the likelyhood of a fire in the block.
I really couldn't see how a fire could spread if say a fridge "exploded".
The unit was solidly made and maybe carpets, kitchen units, wardrobes, beds etc could catch fire but the fire would be unlikely to spread to adjoining units.
So really, people in an adjoining unit could possibly sit out the fire without danger.
I don't think I'd choose to do that but maybe it could be done.
If, however, there was external cladding which was flammable, then there would have been a much greater chance of fire spreading if the cladding caught fire.

Now, as I understand it the cladding on the London Fire building was flammable - very much so and also difficult to put out once on fire.
I'm no expert at all, far from it.
But what if the cladding was the prime cause of the fire spreading?

So, getting back to the Exile post, what has the cladding got to do with austerity measures and governments/councils?
Maybe they could have just painted the structure - and maybe this would have been cheaper than cladding?


Keep up laddie, Ex was making a political point cleverly. As you must be aware he knows everything.

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Re: London Fire

Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:38 am

Whitters wrote:Interesting comments Exile.

A couple of years ago I lived in a unit for 6 months or so.
It was on the third floor of a block and one of the things I considered was the likelyhood of a fire in the block.
I really couldn't see how a fire could spread if say a fridge "exploded".
The unit was solidly made and maybe carpets, kitchen units, wardrobes, beds etc could catch fire but the fire would be unlikely to spread to adjoining units.
So really, people in an adjoining unit could possibly sit out the fire without danger.
I don't think I'd choose to do that but maybe it could be done.
If, however, there was external cladding which was flammable, then there would have been a much greater chance of fire spreading if the cladding caught fire.

Now, as I understand it the cladding on the London Fire building was flammable - very much so and also difficult to put out once on fire.
I'm no expert at all, far from it.
But what if the cladding was the prime cause of the fire spreading?

So, getting back to the Exile post, what has the cladding got to do with austerity measures and governments/councils?
Maybe they could have just painted the structure - and maybe this would have been cheaper than cladding?


[post moderated]

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DonningtonSaddler
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Re: London Fire

Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:52 am

Exile wrote:
Whitters wrote:Interesting comments Exile.

A couple of years ago I lived in a unit for 6 months or so.
It was on the third floor of a block and one of the things I considered was the likelyhood of a fire in the block.
I really couldn't see how a fire could spread if say a fridge "exploded".
The unit was solidly made and maybe carpets, kitchen units, wardrobes, beds etc could catch fire but the fire would be unlikely to spread to adjoining units.
So really, people in an adjoining unit could possibly sit out the fire without danger.
I don't think I'd choose to do that but maybe it could be done.
If, however, there was external cladding which was flammable, then there would have been a much greater chance of fire spreading if the cladding caught fire.

Now, as I understand it the cladding on the London Fire building was flammable - very much so and also difficult to put out once on fire.
I'm no expert at all, far from it.
But what if the cladding was the prime cause of the fire spreading?

So, getting back to the Exile post, what has the cladding got to do with austerity measures and governments/councils?
Maybe they could have just painted the structure - and maybe this would have been cheaper than cladding?


[post moderated]


Was that really necessary?

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Exile
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Re: London Fire

Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:59 am

When someone deliberately avoids an argument to make another point, yes.

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boringteacher
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Re: London Fire

Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:42 pm

It's 8.32, our national broadcaster is yet to show May's triumphant exit from her slightly delayed visit to Kensington.

A bit embarassing as the protest has finished up outside the BBC - still no idea why though. An unbiased observer might want to consider recent senior level appointments in BBC news?

20.39 now, apparently its a bit difficult to get to our beloved state broadcasters complaint line right now. Still no sign of our beloved leader.

edit - not worth showing in the whole hour. Gawd bless you mam

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Whitters
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Re: London Fire

Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:45 pm

DonningtonSaddler wrote:
Exile wrote:
Whitters wrote:Interesting comments Exile.

A couple of years ago I lived in a unit for 6 months or so.
It was on the third floor of a block and one of the things I considered was the likelyhood of a fire in the block.
I really couldn't see how a fire could spread if say a fridge "exploded".
The unit was solidly made and maybe carpets, kitchen units, wardrobes, beds etc could catch fire but the fire would be unlikely to spread to adjoining units.
So really, people in an adjoining unit could possibly sit out the fire without danger.
I don't think I'd choose to do that but maybe it could be done.
If, however, there was external cladding which was flammable, then there would have been a much greater chance of fire spreading if the cladding caught fire.

Now, as I understand it the cladding on the London Fire building was flammable - very much so and also difficult to put out once on fire.
I'm no expert at all, far from it.
But what if the cladding was the prime cause of the fire spreading?

So, getting back to the Exile post, what has the cladding got to do with austerity measures and governments/councils?
Maybe they could have just painted the structure - and maybe this would have been cheaper than cladding?

[post moderated]


Was that really necessary?

No problem, I'm well aware he has issues.
With him being a mod however this surprises me.
Maybe the issues are getting worse.

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Exile
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Re: London Fire

Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:45 am

Issues. Lovely. Congrats on having a unit once. I had an Auckland apartment once, in a high rise. It was concrete/steel construction, and, in accordance with building code over here, sprinklered. I am gobsmacked that is compulsory here but not in the UK.

In case you still don't get it, I was inferring that government cuts to council funding led directly to a low cost solution to a refurbishment that has directly resulted in the deaths of many innocent victims. It's even more egregious that this has happened in one of the UK's richest councils; clearly they couldn't give a toss about their social housing.

How come there's still no list of the dead and missing, by the way? Almost as if the government are waiting for the headlines to move on before releasing the terrible news they are sitting on.

Image

There is no excuse for this tragedy.

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saddla
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Re: London Fire

Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:49 am

Exile wrote:Issues. Lovely. Congrats on having a unit once. I had an Auckland apartment once, in a high rise. It was concrete/steel construction, and, in accordance with building code over here, sprinklered. I am gobsmacked that is compulsory here but not in the UK.

In case you still don't get it, I was inferring that government cuts to council funding led directly to a low cost solution to a refurbishment that has directly resulted in the deaths of many innocent victims. It's even more egregious that this has happened in one of the UK's richest councils; clearly they couldn't give a toss about their social housing.

How come there's still no list of the dead and missing, by the way? Almost as if the government are waiting for the headlines to move on before releasing the terrible news they are sitting on.

There is no excuse for this tragedy.


it is the responsibility of the emergency services to issue details of the numbers of dead and their names. It is not yet possible for the firefighters to enter all areas of the building due to safety concerns. They are currently using dogs to access those areas. They have already stated that it will not be possible to identify some of the dead. A public inquiry into the fire and associated matters has been announced by the government. To gather all the evidence and not jump to false conclusions takes a long time. Work is still ongoing by the fire service and police to investigate the disaster. We should wait until their investigations are complete before throwing blame around. What is disgusting is that some people and politicians are using this tragedy to further their own political aims.


On another topic, what's the excuse for this tragedy?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-40284130

A new report by Unicef contains a shocking statistic - New Zealand has by far the highest youth suicide rate in the developed world. The rate of 15.6 suicides per 100,000 people is twice as high as the US rate and almost five times that of Britain. The high suicide rate ties in with other data, showing for instance child poverty, high rates of teenage pregnancies or families where neither of the parents have work.

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Re: London Fire

Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:29 am

It will be interesting in the future to see what replaces this building.Will it be social housing or high end apartments?

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Re: London Fire

Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:57 pm

I think we know the answer to that don't we?

It wouldn't surprise me that the remaining tower blocks in the area have to be demolished due to "safety concerns"

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Re: London Fire

Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:27 pm

I've learnt over the years to ignore the Exiles of this world, but it's so much fun not to ignore them so here goes.

Exile, shytallknight is right, you know everything.

Someone pushed one of your buttons and in your confusion at not being supremely popular you have a go at me and not shytallknight.

That's ok, an apology and I'll forget it.

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Re: London Fire

Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:37 pm

Right, I'll stop this bickering with my synopsis.

And this gets murkier and murkier by the day, doesn't it?
Leaving the government and leaders out of things for the moment... I'll save the taxpayer the expense and do the Public Enquiry myself.

The are two problems I have with the mechanics of this fire.
1. The material used in the exterior cladding.
2, The fire compartmentation measures within the building.

Cladding panels appear to have to satisfy a Class 0 surface flame spread. So aluminium faced accelerant appears to be perfectly fine and compliant with Building Regulations as they stand. We all know that there are three factors at play as to why the cladding panels were specified: aesthetics, cost and thermal performance.

The tower is over 40 years old, so it is entirely proper that it looks its age and deserves a refit. However, it does seem that excessive focus has been given to its offensive appearances to other (richer) locals. K&C / their TMO were particularly quick to tart it up with shiny things. The other point of excessive focus is the green factor. New windows and cladding have been fitted with the nominal purpose of being environmentally considerate. However, in practice this means it's cheaper to run, so the cost comes down for maintenance and it pays for itself in time. Everyone's a winner. Unfortunately, the capital outlay means that they want the best value for money all round, so the issue here is who cut the corner by specifying this cladding panel. Was it the professional team, the council, the contractor or panel manufacturer?

Notwithstanding that, we now have to consider what went on inside the tower. It will be extremely difficult to ascertain whether a lack of maintenance contributed to the failure of the compartmentation. The corridors and escape stairs may be as much as 4hr fire resistant, though a lesser figure is entirely probable, Certainly the residents are of a mind that rubbish (fire load) was allowed to accumulate in the corridors (the escape route), so this made the fire more intense than it should have been and rendered the recent refurbishment useless. I can't see that a building refurbished 18m ago has fallen into disrepair in terms of building performance, so either the works or products specified were negligent in terms of fire safety. The fire load to the corridors dwarfs them both in terms of fault, so if that can be proved then all else becomes largely irrelevant.

Over and above all of this, are the ludicrous instructions for everyone to stay in the flats. The logic is to allow the fire brigade to climb the stairs, but that has more to do with only having one escape route than anything else.

This fire has a number of disturbing similarities to the Bradford City fire in 1985. The negligence of the fire load which was allowed to accumulate and the accelerant in the cladding (bitumen covered roof) contributed to that fire in the same way. Unfortunately, the Popplewell Enquiry, which was generally regarded as a pig's ear, is going to be replicated if the official response so far is anything to go by.

Given K&C's abject response so far, I would suggest they are the ones who are most worried and with good reason too. Ultimately, they signed the building off after the refit, so the responsibility is theirs or their appointed agent. They can argue with each other but K&C can't delegate the responsibility in the end.

swampysaddler
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Re: London Fire

Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:31 pm

Exile wrote:
Whitters wrote:Interesting comments Exile.

A couple of years ago I lived in a unit for 6 months or so.
It was on the third floor of a block and one of the things I considered was the likelyhood of a fire in the block.
I really couldn't see how a fire could spread if say a fridge "exploded".
The unit was solidly made and maybe carpets, kitchen units, wardrobes, beds etc could catch fire but the fire would be unlikely to spread to adjoining units.
So really, people in an adjoining unit could possibly sit out the fire without danger.
I don't think I'd choose to do that but maybe it could be done.
If, however, there was external cladding which was flammable, then there would have been a much greater chance of fire spreading if the cladding caught fire.

Now, as I understand it the cladding on the London Fire building was flammable - very much so and also difficult to put out once on fire.
I'm no expert at all, far from it.
But what if the cladding was the prime cause of the fire spreading?




So, getting back to the Exile post, what has the cladding got to do with austerity measures and governments/councils?
Maybe they could have just painted the structure - and maybe this would have been cheaper than cladding?

[post moderated]



I wonder if the Mods and Admin are going to do anything about the swear filter !
One swear word off me and I get pulled up and normally get a 24 hour ban but because it is the high and mighty Exile it will be ignored.

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Manchester Saddler
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Re: London Fire

Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:06 pm

Hey Swampy (TS) - I had to chuckle at that. I've had a little time off the board (you may have noticed) but if you scroll back through your posts, I think maybe you can answer your own question.

How are you, BTW?
:D

swampysaddler
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Re: London Fire

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:06 am

Manchester Saddler wrote:Hey Swampy (TS) - I had to chuckle at that. I've had a little time off the board (you may have noticed) but if you scroll back through your posts, I think maybe you can answer your own question.

How are you, BTW?
:D

Not too bad mate. Yourself ?
I did notice you had been quiet :D

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Re: London Fire

Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:58 am

NEWPORT SADDLERS DAD wrote:It will be interesting in the future to see what replaces this building.Will it be social housing or high end apartments?


There will probably be memorial garden.

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Exile
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Re: London Fire

Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:13 am

DonningtonSaddler wrote:
NEWPORT SADDLERS DAD wrote:It will be interesting in the future to see what replaces this building.Will it be social housing or high end apartments?


There will probably be memorial garden.

Small, surrounded by high-end apartments. :wink:

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Manchester Saddler
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Re: London Fire

Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:27 pm

swampysaddler wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:Hey Swampy (TS) - I had to chuckle at that. I've had a little time off the board (you may have noticed) but if you scroll back through your posts, I think maybe you can answer your own question.

How are you, BTW?
:D

Not too bad mate. Yourself ?
I did notice you had been quiet :D


I'm okay Swampy. I'll bet you're missing Manchester aren't you?
:wink:

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chunkster
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Re: London Fire

Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:45 pm

Manchester Saddler wrote:
swampysaddler wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:Hey Swampy (TS) - I had to chuckle at that. I've had a little time off the board (you may have noticed) but if you scroll back through your posts, I think maybe you can answer your own question.

How are you, BTW?
:D

Not too bad mate. Yourself ?
I did notice you had been quiet :D


I'm okay Swampy. I'll bet you're missing Manchester aren't you?
:wink:
you or the place? :lol:

swampysaddler
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Re: London Fire

Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:21 pm

Manchester Saddler wrote:
swampysaddler wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:Hey Swampy (TS) - I had to chuckle at that. I've had a little time off the board (you may have noticed) but if you scroll back through your posts, I think maybe you can answer your own question.

How are you, BTW?
:D

Not too bad mate. Yourself ?
I did notice you had been quiet :D


I'm okay Swampy. I'll bet you're missing Manchester aren't you?
:wink:



Like a hole in my head. :D

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Manchester Saddler
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Re: London Fire

Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:19 pm

chunkster wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:
swampysaddler wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:Hey Swampy (TS) - I had to chuckle at that. I've had a little time off the board (you may have noticed) but if you scroll back through your posts, I think maybe you can answer your own question.

How are you, BTW?
:D

Not too bad mate. Yourself ?
I did notice you had been quiet :D


I'm okay Swampy. I'll bet you're missing Manchester aren't you?
:wink:
you or the place? :lol:


Both! :D

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