And so it begins.

[derbysaddler]

Daily express headline roulette: usually contains the following.

Immigrants
House prices
Cure for death
Pensions!
Cure for cancer
Pensions for immigrants!
Diana
Free cures and houses for immigrants!
Death...how to avoid it.
Etc

You forgot freak weather no one else predicts and that never happens.(they use, shall we say, a maverick source)

dammit I forgot the killer snow storm headlines in Sept.

[Cheesebag]

THUNDERSNOW!!!!! :D

[yoda]

[yoda]

I read something interesting today. Apparently when including people that fall into the 'didn't vote / can't vote' category, the Leave group got 26% of the votes.

I know how voting works, and I'm not denying the outcome here, etc etc.... But I'm unsure people should still be using this 'Will of the People' slogan. I guess the same is true of most voting systems, I just never saw this 'Will of the People!' phrase banded round during the last General Election for example, when UKIP suffered greatly because of the unbalanced voting system.

[seventies_saddler]

Agree totally Yoda. And even if you take those that voted 52% was hardly the landslide the phrase 'the will of the British people' seems to suggest. I've noticed that the phrase is used mostly by the hard line eurosceptics/hard brexiteers who want to bypass the judges and parliament (I.e. democracy) to get their desired outcome.

The same people who get really irritated when people like me suggest that perhaps their arguments might be a tiny bit flawed - and start blustering on about 'remoaners', 'project fear back again', 'you want us to fail' etc.

[reedswood sadler]

I read something interesting today. Apparently when including people that fall into the 'didn't vote / can't vote' category, the Leave group got 26% of the votes.

I know how voting works, and I'm not denying the outcome here, etc etc.... But I'm unsure people should still be using this 'Will of the People' slogan. I guess the same is true of most voting systems, I just never saw this 'Will of the People!' phrase banded round during the last General Election for example, when UKIP suffered greatly because of the unbalanced voting system.

You could use this for any election/referendum as you never get 100% voting ever normally less than 75% so if you take into account the views of those that could not be bothered to vote nearly everyone could be reversed. The torys may have not got elected we may have still been in Eu.

I have said all along don't have a go at leaves blame those to idle to bother.In the EU referendum one of the largest groups moaning that us oldies had ruined their future were the under 25;s yet only 26% of this age group could be bothered to get off facebook or put down playstations and go and vote.

YOU reap what you sow.

[seventies_saddler]

agree with all that Reedswood - and to that you can add Labour's ineffective campaign and Corbyn's pathetic contribution

[Guest]

We're off to a good start with parallel trade talks and Gibraltar.

[swampysaddler]

[quote="Guest"]We're off to a good start with parallel trade talks and Gibraltar.[/quote]


So the Spanish want to play hard ball with Gib, I lived there for 2 years 88-90 lovely area, all we have to do is call in Catalonia.
Or shall we start on the Spanish with the Moroccans ................................Ceuta and Melilla.
It works in roundabouts that you remainers can't accept !!!

[swampysaddler]

Agree totally Yoda. And even if you take those that voted 52% was hardly the landslide the phrase 'the will of the British people' seems to suggest. I've noticed that the phrase is used mostly by the hard line eurosceptics/hard brexiteers who want to bypass the judges and parliament (I.e. democracy) to get their desired outcome.

The same people who get really irritated when people like me suggest that perhaps their arguments might be a tiny bit flawed - and start blustering on about 'remoaners', 'project fear back again', 'you want us to fail' etc.

And here in lie the problem Yoda.
The one's preaching "I didn't vote to leave" are the one's that couldn't be arsed with pulling their self away from Jeremy Kyle and vote remain.
We had a democratic vote, and the result was 52% voted leave.
Is it the Leavers fault that the Jeremy Kyle Clan couldn't be arsed to get up before 10pm ? Nope
WE ARE LEAVING AND SURREY SADDLER GET OVER IT.
We are off and good riddance to bad rubbish.

[swampysaddler]

Agree totally Yoda. And even if you take those that voted 52% was hardly the landslide the phrase 'the will of the British people' seems to suggest. I've noticed that the phrase is used mostly by the hard line eurosceptics/hard brexiteers who want to bypass the judges and parliament (I.e. democracy) to get their desired outcome.

The same people who get really irritated when people like me suggest that perhaps their arguments might be a tiny bit flawed - and start blustering on about 'remoaners', 'project fear back again', 'you want us to fail' etc.

Hold on Mr High and Mighty.
Say the result was the other way, would us "Leavers" be crying like little kids and trying every little legal loophole to try and stop the will of the "voting public" ?
No.
Get over it people , we ARE leaving the CORRUPT EU.

[swampysaddler]

What part of Article 50 HAS BEEN INVOKED and the letter has been sent to the corrupt EU telling them WE ARE LEAVING THE EU can't the like's of Surrey Saddler get through his head ?
We are leaving, suck it up buttercup. You flogged a dead horse.
This time in 2 years we will be ridden of the EU and their shite.

[SaigonSaddler]

Agree totally Yoda. And even if you take those that voted 52% was hardly the landslide the phrase 'the will of the British people' seems to suggest. I've noticed that the phrase is used mostly by the hard line eurosceptics/hard brexiteers who want to bypass the judges and parliament (I.e. democracy) to get their desired outcome.

The same people who get really irritated when people like me suggest that perhaps their arguments might be a tiny bit flawed - and start blustering on about 'remoaners', 'project fear back again', 'you want us to fail' etc.

Hold on Mr High and Mighty.
Say the result was the other way, would us "Leavers" be crying like little kids and trying every little legal loophole to try and stop the will of the "voting public" ?
No.

Certainly a fair few tears and spat dummies when the perfectly legitimate legal challenge was launched through the very British courts. Not to mention the blizzard of vile hatred spewed in the direction of the main claimant. Plenty of twists and turns left in this huge experiment.

[Cully]

No wonder Scotland are panicking, their principle exports of kilts, alcoholism, losing, bitterness and Scotsmen is under threat by Spain's stance on Gibraltar.

[seventies_saddler]

Hold on Mr High and Mighty.
Say the result was the other way, would us "Leavers" be crying like little kids and trying every little legal loophole to try and stop the will of the "voting public" ?
No.
Get over it people , we ARE leaving the CORRUPT EU.[/quote]

The vast majority of people accept we're leaving swampy regardless of how they voted. It's the manner of our exit that is at issue. Nothing wrong with a healthy passionate debate about that.

[Exile]

agree with all that Reedswood - and to that you can add Labour's ineffective campaign and Corbyn's pathetic contribution

Why are you making this a left/right wing thing?

If you're correct, then May, who campaigned to remain, as I'm sure you remember, should be kissing Corbyn, who also campaigned to remain, although he wasn't reported on much by the right wing British media. Now can you forget party politics and try to understand what happened? Britain just got turned into a low tax one party state and everyone on the wrong side of the poverty line is now royally f***ed, since the NHS is on the way out, and welfare is too expensive, because companies need to pay less tax on their profits, whilst paying employees less.

[derbysaddler]

Hold on Mr High and Mighty.
Say the result was the other way, would us "Leavers" be crying like little kids and trying every little legal loophole to try and stop the will of the "voting public" ?
No.

Oh yes im sure you would be. Next question?

[seventies_saddler]

agree with all that Reedswood - and to that you can add Labour's ineffective campaign and Corbyn's pathetic contribution

Why are you making this a left/right wing thing?

If you're correct, then May, who campaigned to remain, as I'm sure you remember, should be kissing Corbyn, who also campaigned to remain, although he wasn't reported on much by the right wing British media. Now can you forget party politics and try to understand what happened? Britain just got turned into a low tax one party state and everyone on the wrong side of the poverty line is now royally f***ed, since the NHS is on the way out, and welfare is too expensive, because companies need to pay less tax on their profits, whilst paying employees less.

The point I'm making is that labour's insipid campaign coupled with corbyn's particularly pathetic performance delivered the result to the leavers on a plate. And what we now have are the eurosceptics on the right of a tory party with a wafer thin majority in the house of commons holding a gun to the.previously eminently reasonable com passionate one nation tory Teresa mays head. There's a long way to go yet let's see what happens

[Cowshed]

agree with all that Reedswood - and to that you can add Labour's ineffective campaign and Corbyn's pathetic contribution

Why are you making this a left/right wing thing?

If you're correct, then May, who campaigned to remain, as I'm sure you remember, should be kissing Corbyn, who also campaigned to remain, although he wasn't reported on much by the right wing British media. Now can you forget party politics and try to understand what happened? Britain just got turned into a low tax one party state and everyone on the wrong side of the poverty line is now royally f***ed, since the NHS is on the way out, and welfare is too expensive, because companies need to pay less tax on their profits, whilst paying employees less.

And the downside is???

[seventies_saddler]

Of course its a left wing/right wing thing. The version of the future described above is utopia for right wingers

[swampysaddler]

We are not leaving...mark my words!

Come on then prove me wrong and explain how we are not leaving considering the letter has been sent ? And the letter was "hand delivered".

[Exile]

We are not leaving...mark my words!

Come on then prove me wrong and explain how we are not leaving considering the letter has been sent ? And the letter was "hand delivered".

The full impact of leaving will become apparent long before the two year deadline is up, and government will pull the pin before it all goes tits up.

[SaigonSaddler]

We are not leaving...mark my words!

Come on then prove me wrong and explain how we are not leaving considering the letter has been sent ? And the letter was "hand delivered".

The full impact of leaving will become apparent long before the two year deadline is up, and government will pull the pin before it all goes tits up.

Or at least it will be so heavily fudged that it will be unrecognisable to the kind of exit that the leave voters wanted. Britain's interaction with Europe has been somewhat cyclical since WW2, so I also predict a steady reengagement with Europe on a wide variety of areas in the coming years, purely down to pragmatic necessity and the force of economics.

.

[PT]

I think there may be something in that Saigon. But I don't think all the fudging will be on the part of the UK. As negotiations begin in earnest it will be close to impossible for the 27 to maintain a united front because they will all have a degree of self interest in their relationship with the UK.

I can see a point coming when the UK says that it is impossible to negotiate with the bloc as others have found in trying to reach economic agreement. There will always be one or two countries who feel downwind of any proposal.

If we are smart we say that we are still leaving but due to the regional inter-dependency on security we will really need to talk to our closest and dearest neighbours Ireland and France as independent nations rather than the big bloc which is so slow it would in reality take 10 rather than 2 years to reach agreement.

What does Brussells do then? It risks a schism if it says yes (separate talks with France would put the wind up everyone else), it risks the possibility of a hard border and a return to near civil war in Ireland if it says no. Both Ireland and France would love a special relationship with us both for the genuine security joint interest and also economically. And try as Brussells might you can't split the two. How goods and people move about is intrinsically linked to security. Both of those countries desperately need a functioning relationship with the UK probably more than the UK does with them.

Germany would eat itself with paranoia if the UK were in talks with France and they weren't in control. They would worry that a UK/French agreement over managing Calais and intelligence sharing (in UK interest) might well be reciprocated by agreement over Energy and Auto (hugely in French interest) with Germany on the sidelines shitting themselves that all the VWs, Audis, BMWs, Skodas, Mercs, Seats etc on our roads will be replaced by Citroens, Peugeots and Renaults.

Of course it won't get that far. Germany and France need to be seen to be shoulder to shoulder. The moment big splits in the 27 start to appear they will begin offering the UK some tasty get out of jail cards. All the stuff Cameron asked for and more. The UK breathes a sigh of relief with potential "best of both worlds" scenarios and given that the landscape has moved we either go back to the country for a second referrundum or just force through our "new, better relationship with Europe that takes into account the wishes of those who voted leave".

Let's see.

[reedswood sadler]

A already difficult task of agreeing on anything between UK and EU have been made impossible to get any result by Spain bringing Gibralter into the mix.

If the EU keep to the idea all 27 members must agree Spain will veto everything unless we give way on Gibralter and I cannot see the UK backing down on this issue.

Why waste 2 years having talks unless this is settled first.

[Cheesebag]

We WILL have Brexit, albeit Brexit light with concessions to please all the lefties that now live outside the UK :D :lol:

[Exile]

We WILL have Brexit, albeit Brexit light with concessions to please all the lefties that now live outside the UK :D :lol:

Nope. You'll get the Brexit that the elected government, and their representatives, manage to negotiate. All concessions rest on them. Can't blame leftie ex-pats and emigrants for that. :wink:

[yoda]

We are not leaving...mark my words!

Come on then prove me wrong and explain how we are not leaving considering the letter has been sent ? And the letter was "hand delivered".

I think we'll leave, but the letter isn't a guarantee.

Article 50 was deliberately written to be very vague and full of holes so it could be interpreted to fit the time/situation it was being used in. Countries can vote to extend the 2 year departure window, its not a stretch to image they could find a way to vote to nullify it.

[derbysaddler]

Well, latest updates include the Government flip flopping on freedom of movement for EU citizens, Howard escaping his crypt and getting a lob on for task forces to defend Gibraltar (hopefully this will be in unison with the 2nd retired ex pat brigade laying siege to Alicante) and May scuttling off to the house of Saudi to beg them to invest/buy up UK assets.

Splendid.

[aaaae]

Doomed, we're all doomed. Within a couple of years the UK will be the most impoverished country in the world. Our systems of government and law and order will fall apart without the common sense of the EU to keep us in check. Imagine those Frenchies and Germans laughing at us as we scrabble around in the dust searching for grains of wheat to feed our starving children and the most able of us will be queuing up to emigrate to havens like Bangladesh and Angola....I hope you're satisfied you Brexiteer fools!!