London Attack

[Exile]

So, was the Parliament incident straightforward media-defined terrorism, or just your average nutter who happened to have brown skin, despite being English?

NZ media didn't refer to terrorism when it happened, only mentioned it the day after, and relegated it to 'other news', rather than headlines, today. I gather English outlets had a different take.

[Welsh_Saddler]

Perhaps the fact that IS (Islamic State) have claimed responsibility for the incident has influenced media opinion. Having said that, they could be merely jumping on the bandwagon to generate publicity for their cause. IS called him "a soldier in their army" - the McGuinness touch?

The "terrorist" had no previous involvement with any known radical groups (we are told), but he did have a history of some criminal activity - carrying offensive weapons, robbery etc.

[Mazza01]

Of course its terrorism, his agenda was to kill and create terror and fright amongst innocent people.

He had a clear agenda against western society.

[derbysaddler]

Islamic state will claim anything to make out that they are some all powerful world movement.

[Mazza01]

Islamic state will claim anything to make out that they are some all powerful world movement.

Sadly in a sense I think they are, London was bought to a standstill through the actions of just one man who was happy to slaughter innocent human beings in the name of religion.

Think about it the whole world has slowly had to change due to their actions, basic things such as going on Holidays have become difficult , Barriers constructed around major tourist attractions ,heightened security at all major events this list goes on and on.

Its just a matter of time before it happens again, and for me the power comes from us not being able to prevent or defend against it.

[Whaleoilbeefhooked]

Islamic state will claim anything to make out that they are some all powerful world movement.

Sadly in a sense I think they are, London was bought to a standstill through the actions of just one man who was happy to slaughter innocent human beings in the name of religion.

Think about it the whole world has slowly had to change due to their actions, basic things such as going on Holidays have become difficult , Barriers constructed around major tourist attractions ,heightened security at all major events this list goes on and on.

Its just a matter of time before it happens again, and for me the power comes from us not being able to prevent or defend against it.

London was not brought to a stand still, this terrible event was very localised. An American broadcaster also quipped about London being brought to it's knees when it just was not the case One tube station was closed (Westminster) and a few streets in the surrounding area. I personally blame the mass media for pushing and in some aspects glorifying these deeds - Report it, inform people but do not push and push as is just gives these lunatics a platform. As for this incident, whilst horrible there are scarier things happening every day in this and all big cities than one nut job driving a car at people (Although the idea of that is a scary and uncontrollable one). As for the IS link as others have said, they will naturally claim responsibility very quickly. As for changing the way you live your life - not for me!

I noticed with the event at Orly airport where a 'lone wolf' tried to grab a policewoman's pistol the police were quick to bring light to his drug habits and the THC found in his system - was this a ploy to paint him as hardly an ideal 'soldier' for IS? Unsure if they claimed that one.

[PT]

Islamic state will claim anything to make out that they are some all powerful world movement.

Sadly in a sense I think they are, London was bought to a standstill through the actions of just one man who was happy to slaughter innocent human beings in the name of religion.

Think about it the whole world has slowly had to change due to their actions, basic things such as going on Holidays have become difficult , Barriers constructed around major tourist attractions ,heightened security at all major events this list goes on and on.

Its just a matter of time before it happens again, and for me the power comes from us not being able to prevent or defend against it.

London was not brought to a stand still, this terrible event was very localised. An American broadcaster also quipped about London being brought to it's knees when it just was not the case One tube station was closed (Westminster) and a few streets in the surrounding area. I personally blame the mass media for pushing and in some aspects glorifying these deeds - Report it, inform people but do not push and push as is just gives these lunatics a platform. As for this incident, whilst horrible there are scarier things happening every day in this and all big cities than one nut job driving a car at people (Although the idea of that is a scary and uncontrollable one). As for the IS link as others have said, they will naturally claim responsibility very quickly. As for changing the way you live your life - not for me!

I noticed with the event at Orly airport where a 'lone wolf' tried to grab a policewoman's pistol the police were quick to bring light to his drug habits and the THC found in his system - was this a ploy to paint him as hardly an ideal 'soldier' for IS? Unsure if they claimed that one.

This.

I was in London on the day itself, about a mile from Westminster and it was not brought to its knees, to a standstill or suffered a shut-down.

I shall be there again tomorrow.

Unless you're caught up in an actual incident you don't let these daft Scunthorpe break your stride let alone "terrorise" you.

[Mazza01]

OK perhaps I should of phrased it in a different way, you are correct London theoretically did not come to a standstill.

And where I admire your stance (I take the same) in not allowing these people effect your life unfortunately it does..

I will give you an example of how this mans actions can have an effect, Sunday I took my wife and two Daughters to the England game at Wembley. Bare in mind my Daughters are 8 & 10 both had heard about the attacks from either the news or children talking about it on the playground.

For an 8 & 10 year old the actions of this man and what he did is a terrifying thought (something that we never grew up with as youngsters). Unfortunately both were very apprehensive about visiting London and as parents it does make you think twice at times.

I think Whaleoilbeefhooked does make a good point about the Media and the Circus that follows after such events, it only heightens the fear.

[cookyskid]

I agree with Whaleoilbeefhooked. Yes, there are dangers from assorted nutters, be they inspired by islamo-Fascism (ISIS & their ilk) or the Anglo-European variety like Thomas Maher or Anders Breivik. However the level of danger is much lower than in the 70's and 80's when the IRA were active, and we responded phlegmatically enough then. I remember a game at Fellows Park when it was announced that a bomb warning had been received just before kick-off. The announcer asked everyone in the main stand to look under their seats. Viewing from the Cowshed it was quite comical watching them all obey in unison then calmly sit down again. I don't think the kick-off was even delayed. This sort of stoicism is the best response to these maniacs.

Incidentally I have to chuckle when my 91 year old mom says how dangerous the world is these days. This from someone whose teenage years were spent knowing that the Luftwaffe was overhead nightly trying to blow everybody to pieces

[Whaleoilbeefhooked]

I agree with Whaleoilbeefhooked. Yes, there are dangers from assorted nutters, be they inspired by islamo-Fascism (ISIS & their ilk) or the Anglo-European variety like Thomas Maher or Anders Breivik. However the level of danger is much lower than in the 70's and 80's when the IRA were active, and we responded phlegmatically enough then. I remember a game at Fellows Park when it was announced that a bomb warning had been received just before kick-off. The announcer asked everyone in the main stand to look under their seats. Viewing from the Cowshed it was quite comical watching them all obey in unison then calmly sit down again. I don't think the kick-off was even delayed. This sort of stoicism is the best response to these maniacs.

Incidentally I have to chuckle when my 91 year old mom says how dangerous the world is these days. This from someone whose teenage years were spent knowing that the Luftwaffe was overhead nightly trying to blow everybody to pieces

- That's brilliant!

Admittedly the worst of the troubles were before my time (90's baby) but this mass media onslaught does bother me and i suppose as Mazza posted it does effect your life whether you want it to or not and it's not something that's easy to talk away. My girlfriend is Irish and speaks to her mother probably twice a day :shock: (Nobodies perfect) and it amazes me the worry that comes through the phone especially following 'small' incidents like this - not to disrespect or detract from the tragic loss of life but it isn't on par with what has happened in say Paris (not to say one life is worth more than another but you know what i'm getting at...) I try to explain that London among many other English cities would have been a far scarier place during the 70's/80's or the fact they have no fear visiting relatives in Belfast where there is a live danger but this falls on deaf ears :roll: . I remember a tale of when my mother moved over from Ireland she worked in a bar in Hanwell west London and she told me a story of how on any given night fundraisers for the IRA would come into the bar and openly ask for donations in a bucket 'for the cause' and everyone was expected to put in something.

I suppose we can take some solace in the fact the 'IS lads' probably won't be bothering you down your local boozer.. :roll: atleast hopefully not the one i live above!

[yoda]

It really winds me up that there's pictures of the man responsible everywhere. The media seem to have dug through every facebook picture and spoke to every friend he had. Someone told me The Sun even did like a 5 page spread on him.

It communicates to like-minded people that this sort of thing works and they'll get attention. In an ideal world there should be no mention of this guy and you should struggle to even know his name, he should be a faceless afterthought. But, hey, newspapers aren't going to sell themselves, right?

[chunkster]

And what winds me up is the only tie he had with Islam was the fact that he had converted. He was a black guy who was mentally deranged and a violent thug. why should the Muslim community have to keep saying sorry and condemning these attacks when it really has no bearing on them :|

[SaigonSaddler]

And what winds me up is the only tie he had with Islam was the fact that he had converted. He was a black guy who was mentally deranged and a violent thug. why should the Muslim community have to keep saying sorry and condemning these attacks when it really has no bearing on them :|

Amidst a huge pile of gubbins trolled out by various confused and aggressive internet types, I do think a couple of points can't be avoided. One of them is that the current run of terrorism is a muslim problem.

Islam is essentially a pile of bollocks. Unfortunately, it is the vehicle for some to act violently in pursuit of more people becoming adherents (good luck with that). What they need to do, and haven't been doing enough of in my view, is totally and comprehensively distancing themselves from the violent route and consistently condemning it.

But there's not enough clear condemnation. There is too much sympathy with their deluded ISIS 'brothers' and 'sisters' of the faith. There seems to be a latent amount of anger at long concluded historic episodes and unnecessary annoyance at other faiths and belief systems. Add in current issues with Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Palestine (slightly different, I think Israel is a huge part of the problem), some of which are viewed as a contorted conspiracy by many, and there is a volatile mix of discontent.

It's important to recognise the comparatively low number of extremists, but also the fairly substantial amount of convert support of the faithful getting one over on the big, bad defenders of heretical belief systems. In short, Islam needs to grow up and evolve into something better suited to the 21st century. Unfortunately this is difficult to square with what is described as the inalienable 1500 year old word of god.

[chunkster]

Well said Saigon, I may copy and paste that as my own work for the E&S :wink:

[scott_powell]

All religions are wrong.
All religions are vile.
All religions should be abolished.

The Bible and the Quran are as disgusting as each other. The problem is these religious folk pick and choose what they want from their holy books and use it to justify their good/bad actions. These books DO tell you to kills others . It's a fact. They are doing what the book says!! Islam is horrible as are all other religions. People who believe are mentally ill.

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" - Islam is a peaceful religion my arse!!

[yoda]

All religions are wrong.
All religions are vile.
All religions should be abolished.

Not sure how much I agree with this.

Religion can be a good thing for bringing people together and spreading a positive message (think choir groups, etc) as well as being a crutch for people (when my Grandad died, it seemed to help my Nan and 8 year-old Nephew to believe he was up with God, etc).

I don't really know enough about the situation but I'm wary of pointing to a single, simple and convenient cause like religion. It just reminds me of how when theres a school shooting people are keen (or used to be, at least) on blaming video games when it was clear there were other factors at play including the mental health of the individual concerned.

[scott_powell]

All religions are wrong.
All religions are vile.
All religions should be abolished.

Not sure how much I agree with this.

Religion can be a good thing for bringing people together and spreading a positive message (think choir groups, etc) as well as being a crutch for people (when my Grandad died, it seemed to help my Nan and 8 year-old Nephew to believe he was up with God, etc).

I don't really know enough about the situation but I'm wary of pointing to a single, simple and convenient cause like religion. It just reminds me of how when theres a school shooting people are keen (or used to be, at least) on blaming video games when it was clear there were other factors at play including the mental health of the individual concerned.

Pedophilia, Homophobia, Terrorism, Sexism. War. Greed.

Regardless of any good to come from religion, these Holy Books normalise and encourage some disgusting things, things which people have acted upon. The "good" religious folk just ignore those things.

Believing in a God in general is genuinely ridiculous and those who do have mental issues.

[yoda]

I'm not disputing theres plenty of terrible incidents throughout history that have come as a direct result of religion, I'm just not sure I'm on board with saying all are wrong and should be banned.
There's plenty wrong with basing your life around the exact wording of texts written in a different age, however a lot of people don't do that.

Just from my experience, most people these days seem connected to religion either out of tradition or as a crutch to replace drink/drugs/a lost loved one, etc. I'm not sure I'd agree they have mental issues, they're just doing what they need to get by.

However, it seems the common ground we share is that we can agree those that base their lives around the exact wording of outdated texts of questionable origin have bigger problems in life. I'm just saying its perhaps not fair to deprive everyone because of these individuals.

[swampysaddler]

All religions are wrong.
All religions are vile.
All religions should be abolished.

Not sure how much I agree with this.

Religion can be a good thing for bringing people together and spreading a positive message (think choir groups, etc) as well as being a crutch for people (when my Grandad died, it seemed to help my Nan and 8 year-old Nephew to believe he was up with God, etc).

I don't really know enough about the situation but I'm wary of pointing to a single, simple and convenient cause like religion. It just reminds me of how when theres a school shooting people are keen (or used to be, at least) on blaming video games when it was clear there were other factors at play including the mental health of the individual concerned.

Pedophilia, Homophobia, Terrorism, Sexism. War. Greed.

Regardless of any good to come from religion, these Holy Books normalise and encourage some disgusting things, things which people have acted upon. The "good" religious folk just ignore those things.

Believing in a God in general is genuinely ridiculous and those who do have mental issues.

Personally I think you have "mental issues" that you require help, but that is just my opinion.
So according to the book of Scott anybody who believes in religion has mental health problems.
You cannot blame religion for the odd nutcase. Islam, as much I detest it, has a lot of followers who are peaceful but you being on your high horse again you are always right.
Let the abuse start again off the 10 man wannabe.

[scott_powell]

All religions are wrong.
All religions are vile.
All religions should be abolished.

Not sure how much I agree with this.

Religion can be a good thing for bringing people together and spreading a positive message (think choir groups, etc) as well as being a crutch for people (when my Grandad died, it seemed to help my Nan and 8 year-old Nephew to believe he was up with God, etc).

I don't really know enough about the situation but I'm wary of pointing to a single, simple and convenient cause like religion. It just reminds me of how when theres a school shooting people are keen (or used to be, at least) on blaming video games when it was clear there were other factors at play including the mental health of the individual concerned.

Pedophilia, Homophobia, Terrorism, Sexism. War. Greed.

Regardless of any good to come from religion, these Holy Books normalise and encourage some disgusting things, things which people have acted upon. The "good" religious folk just ignore those things.

Believing in a God in general is genuinely ridiculous and those who do have mental issues.

Personally I think you have "mental issues" that you require help, but that is just my opinion.
So according to the book of Scott anybody who believes in religion has mental health problems.
You cannot blame religion for the odd nutcase. Islam, as much I detest it, has a lot of followers who are peaceful but you being on your high horse again you are always right.
Let the abuse start again off the 10 man wannabe.

:D I don't know where all this is coming from. Thought you'd changed!! :lol:

Religion is vile, makes no sense and encourages horrible things. It's just a fact. Yeah, the mental comment is just my opinion, but would you not think I was mental if I believed in unicorns and praying to the head unicorn would get me into heaven? Probably.

[scott_powell]

I'm not disputing theres plenty of terrible incidents throughout history that have come as a direct result of religion, I'm just not sure I'm on board with saying all are wrong and should be banned.
There's plenty wrong with basing your life around the exact wording of texts written in a different age, however a lot of people don't do that.

Just from my experience, most people these days seem connected to religion either out of tradition or as a crutch to replace drink/drugs/a lost loved one, etc. I'm not sure I'd agree they have mental issues, they're just doing what they need to get by.

However, it seems the common ground we share is that we can agree those that base their lives around the exact wording of outdated texts of questionable origin have bigger problems in life. I'm just saying its perhaps not fair to deprive everyone because of these individuals.

If I believed in magical pixies because it helps me get by, would you not think I was a little cookoo? It's the exact same thing, just widely accepted.

[yoda]

Interesting point, but I guess as long as you weren't hurting anyone (including yourself) then people would have to accept it. I'm not sure there would be call to ban talk of magical pixies. I'd think you were odd for such a belief, but not mentally unstable..... similar to the reaction those that believe in God get really!
I guess your magic pixie belief would be compared to those that believe the Earth is flat despite overwhelming evidence it isn't, and again, we don't think those people mentally unstable.

As I said, religion is tradition. Society tends to be a bit more tolerant of those within its 'template' which I suppose is why believing in a fictional man in the sky would be slightly more accepted than a belief of magic pixies.

[swampysaddler]

All religions are wrong.
All religions are vile.
All religions should be abolished.

Not sure how much I agree with this.

Religion can be a good thing for bringing people together and spreading a positive message (think choir groups, etc) as well as being a crutch for people (when my Grandad died, it seemed to help my Nan and 8 year-old Nephew to believe he was up with God, etc).

I don't really know enough about the situation but I'm wary of pointing to a single, simple and convenient cause like religion. It just reminds me of how when theres a school shooting people are keen (or used to be, at least) on blaming video games when it was clear there were other factors at play including the mental health of the individual concerned.

Pedophilia, Homophobia, Terrorism, Sexism. War. Greed.

Regardless of any good to come from religion, these Holy Books normalise and encourage some disgusting things, things which people have acted upon. The "good" religious folk just ignore those things.

Believing in a God in general is genuinely ridiculous and those who do have mental issues.

Personally I think you have "mental issues" that you require help, but that is just my opinion.
So according to the book of Scott anybody who believes in religion has mental health problems.
You cannot blame religion for the odd nutcase. Islam, as much I detest it, has a lot of followers who are peaceful but you being on your high horse again you are always right.
Let the abuse start again off the 10 man wannabe.

:D I don't know where all this is coming from. Thought you'd changed!! :lol:

Religion is vile, makes no sense and encourages horrible things. It's just a fact. Yeah, the mental comment is just my opinion, but would you not think I was mental if I believed in unicorns and praying to the head unicorn would get me into heaven? Probably.

Religion is vile is your opinion, which you have the right to your opinion, but some people believe it all (not myself I couldn't give 2 shites about religion).
Some people rely on religion, sad I know, but that is their way of life.
Who are we to tell them it is wrong ?
Just because some nut job proclaims "Alan Akbar" (sounds like a pub you would get in Magaluf) we can't tar all Muslims with his brush.
Same as we can't tar all Catholics with the brush that they like little choirboys.
Live and let live Scott, if religion floats someones boat so be it but they had better try and ram it down my throat.

[scott_powell]

Interesting point, but I guess as long as you weren't hurting anyone (including yourself) then people would have to accept it. I'm not sure there would be call to ban talk of magical pixies. I'd think you were odd for such a belief, but not mentally unstable..... similar to the reaction those that believe in God get really!
I guess your magic pixie belief would be compared to those that believe the Earth is flat despite overwhelming evidence it isn't, and again, we don't think those people mentally unstable.

As I said, religion is tradition. Society tends to be a bit more tolerant of those within its 'template' which I suppose is why believing in a fictional man in the sky would be slightly more accepted than a belief of magic pixies.

I do :lol:

I do know that these people aren't mentally unstable, it's just my way of expressing how stupid I think it all is.

I also think it's wrong to encourage kids to be religious. Let's put this out there:
If 1000 children in the USA were never exposed to Christianity until they were 18, how many would believe? Double figures at the very most! It's drilled into kids and it's wrong! The fact people feel the need to come out as atheist is quite sickening. We are all born atheist after all.

[yoda]

I do :lol:

I do know that these people aren't mentally unstable, it's just my way of expressing how stupid I think it all is.

I also think it's wrong to encourage kids to be religious. Let's put this out there:
If 1000 children in the USA were never exposed to Christianity until they were 18, how many would believe? Double figures at the very most! It's drilled into kids and it's wrong! The fact people feel the need to come out as atheist is quite sickening. We are all born atheist after all.

Fair enough. It was interesting to see the areas we agreed on though.

In regards to your '1000 children' experiment, I actually hold the same belief of marriage. If you tried to sell the concept of marriage to someone that had never heard of it, they'd think you WERE mental! :lol:

[derbysaddler]

Worth remembering that with many of these old texts they are full of references to a time completely alien to today. Smiting down cities, no eating a lemon on a Tuesday, encouragement of slavery etc. These were then embellished by whoever was in charge at the time as a way to keep the population under the thumb. Any passages that explained the basic principles of decent behaviour were just lost amongst all the bollocks.


Religious or not, anyone reading these texts today and taking every word literally and not applying context to them is an idiot.

[scott_powell]

Swamps, if these religious doctrines were consistent and peaceful I would have no issue, even if people were using these holy books for bad. Unfortunately, these holy books DO tell you to kill non believers. It is encouranged and some idiots take it literally (Well, why shouldn't they? They believe after all!). The Quran has over 500 quotes which encourage followers to kill in the name of Muhammad. Yes, I know 99.99% of Muslims are peaceful, but the minority will always ruin it for the majority by following these ridiculous fairy tales.

If a million people had guns in the UK and one tosser decides to kill 30 school kids in a mass shooting, guns would banned ... same principle. The minority always prevail in these situations and for society to effectively move forward you need to cut certain things out.

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority"

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."

Theres just 3 from the Quran.

Shall I go through the many disgusting acts in the bible now? :lol:

[scott_powell]

Worth remembering that with many of these old texts they are full of references to a time completely alien to today. Smiting down cities, no eating a lemon on a Tuesday, encouragement of slavery etc. These were then embellished by whoever was in charge at the time as a way to keep the population under the thumb. Any passages that explained the basic principles of decent behaviour were just lost amongst all the bollocks.


Religious or not, anyone reading these texts today and taking every word literally and not applying context to them is an idiot.

Yes, and many of the "Good" believers do not apply context, especially when it comes homosexuality.

[scott_powell]

I do :lol:

I do know that these people aren't mentally unstable, it's just my way of expressing how stupid I think it all is.

I also think it's wrong to encourage kids to be religious. Let's put this out there:
If 1000 children in the USA were never exposed to Christianity until they were 18, how many would believe? Double figures at the very most! It's drilled into kids and it's wrong! The fact people feel the need to come out as atheist is quite sickening. We are all born atheist after all.

Fair enough. It was interesting to see the areas we agreed on though.

In regards to your '1000 children' experiment, I actually hold the same belief of marriage. If you tried to sell the concept of marriage to someone that had never heard of it, they'd think you WERE mental! :lol:

VERY TRUE :lol:

[swampysaddler]

Swamps, if these religious doctrines were consistent and peaceful I would have no issue, even if people were using these holy books for bad. Unfortunately, these holy books DO tell you to kill non believers. It is encouranged and some idiots take it literally (Well, why shouldn't they? They believe after all!). The Quran has over 500 quotes which encourage followers to kill in the name of Muhammad. Yes, I know 99.99% of Muslims are peaceful, but the minority will always ruin it for the majority by following these ridiculous fairy tales.

If a million people had guns in the UK and one tosser decides to kill 30 school kids in a mass shooting, guns would banned ... same principle. The minority always prevail in these situations and for society to effectively move forward you need to cut certain things out.

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority"

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."

Theres just 3 from the Quran.

Shall I go through the many disgusting acts in the bible now? :lol:

I agree 100% Scott.
Religion has a lot to answer for.
But we can't tar all of them with one brush.
I will be honest I hate anything religious, the only time I go to church is for funerals and weddings.