QF3 - England v Portugal, Saturday 4.0pm BST

[Neil Ravenscroft]

Sorry Sid, but look at what happened ont he pitch:

Why were we supposed to be optimistic? Because we were supposed to have the strongest central midfield in the competition. I'm afraid, purely and simply, Gerrard and, especially, Lampard, did'nt turn up to the party.

Lampard had a miserable World Cup, proving what I've truely believe, that he is vastly over-rated by the Southern media, while Gerard was marginally better, as he at least managed to score twice. Witness his pathetic perfromace in extra time when, despite suppsedly being ont he left, he didn't give Ashley Cole any support at all against Ronaldo and Miguel. As both of them ran up to take their pens I was convinced they'd miss, just to top off a really disappointing time.

We even played a system yesterday which should have suited the pair of them and they were still completely ineffectual.

As for the critics of Hargreave, eat your words, as he was quite superb, as was Crouch, Ferdinand and, much as I dislike him, Terry.

[Horozontal Harry]

As for the critics of Hargreave, eat your words, as he was quite superb, as was Crouch, Ferdinand and, much as I dislike him, Terry.

I agree Neil. Ferdinand was superb and I am struggling to think of a better, recent individual performance from an England player than Hargreaves gave yesterday.

He reminded me a lot of Bryan Robson at his peak - tireless, unselfish, strong in the tackle and always looking to push forward. If only our "world clarse" midfield of Beckham, Lampard, Gerrard and Cole could have contributed a bit more along those lines we would be in the semi final now.

[Cully]

Our game's just been reported on in the NZ evening news, along with the Brazil match. Imagine my total lack of surprise to see the old racial stereotypes trotted out.

The Brazilian game newsfeed managed to find some appropriate Brazilian totty with good English, who philosophically shrugged and said "what can we do? We wait for 2010".

The English game newsfeed managed to mention 100 "fan" arrests, show some drunk being taken away by German cops, then find a pom in NZ who'd stayed up drinking all night (no, not me) and managed to edit his wisdom to the one slur: "the refs are all shaite".

Where would we be without responsible journalism?

But a lot of these stereotypes are grounded in truth, Exile. Many England fans ARE boorish thugs. The second the game finished yesterday, a load of neaderthals from the local pub stormed round to an African cafe on the corner of my road, full of people whose only crime was not to be indigenous English, and smashed the place to pieces. Did the same happen in downtown Rio? I doubt it, somehow. And were Brazilian fans arrested for drunken loutishness after their match, like 70 or 80 of our "brave lads" were in Gelsenkirchen?

But Ian, most England fans are not the neanderthals that the press so enjoy gloryfying in their slanted view of life that is being an England fan. I'm sure that I am not the only person that is sick of journalists and editors who are happy to revell in their own stereotype and present one particular image to the masses, it is obvious when you attend these tournaments that the majority of fans are just the same, normal people that respect other peoples opinions, cultures and countries. What Exile is alluding to is what I believe the majority think about modern journalism, unfortunately we all think we know why journalists want to be selective in their reporting but I for one don't agree with that reason. Isn't it about time that journalists report on what really matters to most people when it comes to supporting England ie the truth. Two of my sons went to Germany to watch Englands matches, to experience the hospitality, friendship and atmosphere generated by the World Cup and saw the none of the 'trouble' that the press were so delighted to report. What they did witness was at worst drunkeness and some loutish behaviour from ALL nationalities. What happened to all those incidents of chair, table, bottle and brick throwing, mass rioting, confrontations, water cannons, policemen on horseback, dog handlers, stabbings, looting of shops and the terrorising of the local residents that the press were hoping for? Your quote 'brave lads' sums up quite nicely what I and Exile already think about that type of reporting, where does that term come from? I think we all know don't we :wink: journalists.

[Ian Gittins]

Cully, why on Earth would journalists WANT to do that? Our newspapers are jingoistic beyond belief in their coverage of the England team, so why would they arbitarily choose to denigrate the supporters? Sure, some other northern European fans now also behave pretty badly, but journalists didn't invent 500 pissed-up England fans being arrested for smashing up the lovely old square in Stuttgart, they didn't fabricate the arrests in Gelsenkirchen last night, and they certainly didn't invent the feral trogs who wrecked the African cafe in my street. I don't know why you are trying to blame newspapers for what it just disgraceful human behaviour.

As it happens, I'm going to the World Cup final, and while I'm gutted I won't have England to watch there, I certainly won't miss being ashamed and embarrassed by a sizeable minority of our fans.

[r_a_perks]

I blame ronaldo soley. cant win fairly, so has to cheat. always has, always will. If he knows whats good for him he'll leave the prem. Well done mate, your in the semis, but you cant visit England for the next 4 years and will have to constantly watch your back.

If that joke of a man Sebb Blatter doesnt say something about Portugal, football is dead. He can condem England for 'boring' tactics and every tiny incident he doesnt like, so he must say something about Portugal. One player had his shoulder clutched and he went down holding his face!! Unless FIFA say something we are going to see cheaters prosper in every tournament.

[Duke]

Sorry Sid, but look at what happened ont he pitch:

Why were we supposed to be optimistic? Because we were supposed to have the strongest central midfield in the competition. I'm afraid, purely and simply, Gerrard and, especially, Lampard, did'nt turn up to the party..

As for the critics of Hargreave, eat your words, as he was quite superb, as was Crouch, Ferdinand and, much as I dislike him, Terry.

Totally agree Neil not only for the Portugal game but through out this world cup our big time players just did'nt turn up

[r_a_perks]

Walcott - What was the point? What. Was. The. Point?

im not getting into this whole 'defoe would have won us the game' but what was the point in Walcott? he took away from options as he'd never even played a prem game so couldnt be put on in a pressure game.

He was like a kid who won a competition to hang out with the England team.

Wenger must be p****** himself. He got a prospect to go and keep fit with world class stars and pumped up his transfer price, even though sven had never seen him play!

The mind boggles, I cant handle it.

[We-ARE-Walsall]

In defence of Gerrard, i don't think he was that bad in any of the games, i just think he has set very high standards for himself, and indeed never quite lived up to them, where on the other hand Lampard was simply appalling,as was Beckham, bar a corner a free kick, and a cross.

Lennon puts fear in defenders, one for our future definately

Oh how i wish we had managed to get big Phil, i really do

[Neil Ravenscroft]

In defence of Gerrard, i don't think he was that bad in any of the games, i just think he has set very high standards for himself, and indeed never quite lived up to them, where on the other hand Lampard was simply appalling,as was Beckham, bar a corner a free kick, and a cross.

Lennon puts fear in defenders, one for our future definately

Oh how i wish we had managed to get big Phil, i really do

Really? What did we score, six was it? Half were made by Beckham, one by Cole and there were two bits of individual brilliance from Gerrard and Cole. the total creative input from Gerrard and Lampard? Nil. Zilch. Nada. The best central midfield duo in the world? My @rse. Hargreaves and Carrick would, as it turned out, been a much better pairing.

[Manchester Saddler]

Now I've managed to sleep on it and calm down fron screaming blue murder, I can now try to get my mind in order and think about the reasons for England's disasterous demise.

(1) Sven being clueless is the main reason. The squad selection was inept. Owen was never match fit, Walcott had not even played a game for Arsenal and there was a huge question mark over whether Rooney would be fit. Why didn't Sven ditch Owen and take Defoe? Why didn't Sven take somebody else instead of Walcott?

(2) Sven continually playing Beckham when the man is past his best. OK he can score freekicks but wouldn't it have been better to play Lennon, a man who instantly caused us to up the tempo and gave us extra width a much better threat?

(3) Sven not dropping Frank Lampard who had an absolute nightmare tournament.

(4) Sven playing a ridiculous formation and not learning from his mistakes. The performance against Ecuador was dire but he stuck with the same system against Portugal, a much better team.

As for yesterday's game, there are several people I want to slap across the face with a wet carp:

(1) Beckham - for not playing well, thinking he has a divine right to play, thinking he has a divine right to saty on the pitch even when he's just been crocked.

(2) Sven for incompetent selections, incompetent tactics, no gusto or encouragement and no emotion and relying on personalities rather than the form of his players.

(3) Frank Lampard for playing crap once again. He is joined by Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher for missing the penalties.

(4) Wayne Rooney for reacting against that fool Cristinao Ronaldo (see below).

(5) Cristiano Ronaldo should be thrown to the wolves after being beaten senseless with a wet fish for cheating. If I ever see that cumbag in Manchester I will hurl a torrent of abuse. He nutted Rooney before the kick off, dived all over the place and, in my opinion, goaded Rooney after the "stamping incident". The man is an utter disgrace and I whole-heartedly agree with Alan Shearer's call for Rooney (or another Man Ure player) to twerp the guy on the training field, should he return to Old Trafford.

(6) John Motson - who once again made me want to smash the TV with constant drivel, reminders of penalties, and just being an irritating ar$ehole. WE DON'T WANT YOUR FECKING OPINION MOTSON! WE WANT YOU TO SHUT THE FECK UP!!!

I fear for the future of England. Steve McClaren had better divorce himself from Sven's ineptitude and be his own man or the next few years will be disasterous.

BRING BACK TERRY VENABLES!!!!!!!

Having just typed this, I've realised I'm far more wound up than I was - so I'll stop - FOR NOW!!!!!

[Manchester Saddler]

Oh - I'd just like to say that I don't blame Rooney too much. IMHO the ref should have blown for a foul to England as he was being pulled all over the place by TWO Portugese players. The stamping incident was an accident and the ref saw that. It was that twerp Ronaldo who got him sent off!!!!

It is a total DISGRACE the way that players are cheating and waving imaginary cards at the referee. That should be a bookable offence in its own right!!!!

[SheffieldSaddler]

Our game's just been reported on in the NZ evening news, along with the Brazil match. Imagine my total lack of surprise to see the old racial stereotypes trotted out.

The Brazilian game newsfeed managed to find some appropriate Brazilian totty with good English, who philosophically shrugged and said "what can we do? We wait for 2010".

The English game newsfeed managed to mention 100 "fan" arrests, show some drunk being taken away by German cops, then find a pom in NZ who'd stayed up drinking all night (no, not me) and managed to edit his wisdom to the one slur: "the refs are all shaite".

Where would we be without responsible journalism?

But a lot of these stereotypes are grounded in truth, Exile. Many England fans ARE boorish thugs. The second the game finished yesterday, a load of neaderthals from the local pub stormed round to an African cafe on the corner of my road, full of people whose only crime was not to be indigenous English, and smashed the place to pieces. Did the same happen in downtown Rio? I doubt it, somehow. And were Brazilian fans arrested for drunken loutishness after their match, like 70 or 80 of our "brave lads" were in Gelsenkirchen?

MANY, dont give me that tosh! I think you should definately retract that ridiclous statement to be honest Ian.
Yes there are a VERY SMALL, yes VERY SMALL minority of English fans that want to cause trouble, just like there are a VERY SMALL minority of German fans etc that want to do the same.
Its alright saying that 500 people smashed up this that and other in Stuggart, but when there was a reported 70000 English fans there, that is not even 1% of them to be honest. MANY? Dont make me laugh.

[SaigonSaddler]

Our game's just been reported on in the NZ evening news, along with the Brazil match. Imagine my total lack of surprise to see the old racial stereotypes trotted out.

The Brazilian game newsfeed managed to find some appropriate Brazilian totty with good English, who philosophically shrugged and said "what can we do? We wait for 2010".

The English game newsfeed managed to mention 100 "fan" arrests, show some drunk being taken away by German cops, then find a pom in NZ who'd stayed up drinking all night (no, not me) and managed to edit his wisdom to the one slur: "the refs are all shaite".

Where would we be without responsible journalism?

But a lot of these stereotypes are grounded in truth, Exile. Many England fans ARE boorish thugs. The second the game finished yesterday, a load of neaderthals from the local pub stormed round to an African cafe on the corner of my road, full of people whose only crime was not to be indigenous English, and smashed the place to pieces. Did the same happen in downtown Rio? I doubt it, somehow. And were Brazilian fans arrested for drunken loutishness after their match, like 70 or 80 of our "brave lads" were in Gelsenkirchen?

MANY, dont give me that tosh! I think you should definately retract that ridiclous statement to be honest Ian.
Yes there are a VERY SMALL, yes VERY SMALL minority of English fans that want to cause trouble, just like there are a VERY SMALL minority of German fans etc that want to do the same.
Its alright saying that 500 people smashed up this that and other in Stuggart, but when there was a reported 70000 English fans there, that is not even 1% of them to be honest. MANY? Dont make me laugh.

What sells newspapers?

70,000 England fans behave peacefully in world cup carnival

OR

500 fans smash up an entire square in Stuttgart, threaten old ladies and rape a squirrel (oooh what is the world coming to!!!)

:roll:

[Cully]

Manchester, excellent posts and for once I agree 100% with you! Please add an extra torrent for me if you should bump into that Portugese toe rag.

[Bernie]

I totally agree with Manchester - who has said just about everything I wanted to say.

Going back to the 4/5 striker argument I would say that Sven took a gamble on: Rooney and Owen being fit and on Walcott being ready for the World Cup finals. If all three gambles had worked we would not have needed any more cover for our forwards.

As it turned out Owen was not able to maintain fitness for the tournament - Sven could claim to be unlucky, but it there was certainly a question about whether he could last through seven matches. I cannot argue against including him, but we certainly should have had a "Plan B" ready.

Rooney was able to play earlier than many had expected, but was nowhere near really ready for the World Cup - he simply did not have match sharpness. Did Sven really think that Rooney could play 120 minutes as a lone striker? It might have been better not to have started with Rooney at all and just to bring him on as a substitute.

Walcott was a total waste of a squad position. Nobody will know for a couple of years whether he will ever be international class. Everybody knew that he was not ready this year even to come on as a substitute. Incidentally - he is apparently more a winger/midfield player like Joe Cole than an out and out striker.

Our squad should not have included Jermaine Jenas or Theo Walcott and in their places we should have had Jermain Defoe and Darren Bent.

[admin]

opta stats in one of the sundays today back up the point about england players not performing - no england player anywhere near the top in any of the categories - highest was lampard as the 10th best midfielder. And ferdinand, who consistently gave the ball away, was ranked the 74th best defender...

If i find the article link I'll post it.

[Ian Gittins]

I don't think the locals of Stuttgart would view it as acceptable that their town centre was smashed up just because a lot of other English fans DIDN'T happen to do. I also don't suppose the police managed to arrest every single fan involved, they'll have just grabbed whatever ringleaders and chief troublemakers they could.

The truth is, 500 arrests is dreadful, the media don't instigate it, they report it, and surely we should be ashamed of it, not trying to make excuses.

[We-ARE-Walsall]

In defence of Gerrard, i don't think he was that bad in any of the games, i just think he has set very high standards for himself, and indeed never quite lived up to them, where on the other hand Lampard was simply appalling,as was Beckham, bar a corner a free kick, and a cross.

Lennon puts fear in defenders, one for our future definately

Oh how i wish we had managed to get big Phil, i really do

Really? What did we score, six was it? Half were made by Beckham, one by Cole and there were two bits of individual brilliance from Gerrard and Cole. the total creative input from Gerrard and Lampard? Nil. Zilch. Nada. The best central midfield duo in the world? My @rse. Hargreaves and Carrick would, as it turned out, been a much better pairing.

Yes we scored six... Gerrard scored two of them, despite playing the first two games tied back in defensive midfield. Had we set Gerrard free, like liverpool do, give him the freedom of the park, then we may just have seen the best of him.

I agree he never set the world on fire, but you certainly notice a difference when he isn't around.

I agree Lampard was shocking, and Hargreaves did better than i expected, and was MOTM yesterday, but don't fool yourself, Hargreaves isn't in the same class as Gerrard, no where near.

You can blame individuals all you like, but Sven messed it up big time, he went in the tournament, without any real plan, he had no idea how to change it, how to impliment the new system, he built the formation to save Beckham's neck. Corners and free kicks do not warrant a starting place alone, and even those wer'e awful yesterday.

All ifs and buts, i wish we could have had a decent manager in charge, we didn't and it's over, worst of all, Mclaren is now in place to continue where sven left.

[Neuromantic]

I agree Lampard was shocking, and Hargreaves did better than i expected, and was MOTM yesterday, but don't fool yourself, Hargreaves isn't in the same class as Gerrard, no where near.

I am now inclined to disagree with that, I honestly believe Hargreaves was our best player in the tournament. If Gerrard is in a different class to Hargreaves, where was he?

[Neil Ravenscroft]

But that was the whole point about the 4 5 1 - it was to set Gerrard and Lampard free! Did it? Did it buggery. Now name Gerrard and Lampard's top class performances for England - at the level they play for their clubs. Got past one hand? I haven't. What makes it worse is they are both fireproof in the Press.

[Neuromantic]

But that was the whole point about the 4 5 1 - it was to set Gerrard and Lampard free! Did it? Did it buggery. Now name Gerrard and Lampard's top class performances for England - at the level they play for their clubs. Got past one hand? I haven't. What makes it worse is they are both fireproof in the Press.

I agree, Id drop them both to buck their ideas up, Carrick and Hargreaves for me would be a fantastic partnership.

[We-ARE-Walsall]

I agree Lampard was shocking, and Hargreaves did better than i expected, and was MOTM yesterday, but don't fool yourself, Hargreaves isn't in the same class as Gerrard, no where near.

I am now inclined to disagree with that, I honestly believe Hargreaves was our best player in the tournament. If Gerrard is in a different class to Hargreaves, where was he?

I must watch a different game old pal.. I'm not arguing that Hargreaves didn't do well, yesterday was his best game by some way, mainly because his energy levels seemed to be better than anyone else on the pitch 3 fold.

So much is expected of Gerrard, and rightly so, the formation wasn't designed to set gerrard free, it was designed to keep beckham in the team, and to cover up Sven's woeful squad selection, in only taking one fully fit striker (Who had played at premiership level)

It isn't really my job to work out formations and systems for England, Sven was payed an awful lot of money over a long time to get it right, he got no where near..

Gerrard really wasn't that bad.. really he wasn't , he just wasn't his brilliant self

[We-ARE-Walsall]

But that was the whole point about the 4 5 1 - it was to set Gerrard and Lampard free! Did it? Did it buggery. Now name Gerrard and Lampard's top class performances for England - at the level they play for their clubs. Got past one hand? I haven't. What makes it worse is they are both fireproof in the Press.

I agree, Id drop them both to buck their ideas up, Carrick and Hargreaves for me would be a fantastic partnership.

Thank god your not the next England manager then

[Neuromantic]

I agree Lampard was shocking, and Hargreaves did better than i expected, and was MOTM yesterday, but don't fool yourself, Hargreaves isn't in the same class as Gerrard, no where near.

I am now inclined to disagree with that, I honestly believe Hargreaves was our best player in the tournament. If Gerrard is in a different class to Hargreaves, where was he?

I must watch a different game old pal.. I'm not arguing that Hargreaves didn't do well, yesterday was his best game by some way, mainly because his energy levels seemed to be better than anyone else on the pitch 3 fold.

So much is expected of Gerrard, and rightly so, the formation wasn't designed to set gerrard free, it was designed to keep beckham in the team, and to cover up Sven's woeful squad selection, in only taking one fully fit striker (Who had played at premiership level)

It isn't really my job to work out formations and systems for England, Sven was payed an awful lot of money over a long time to get it right, he got no where near..

Gerrard really wasn't that bad.. really he wasn't , he just wasn't his brilliant self

Ive been playing football all my life, and the point i try to make is as follows. I cannot see for the life of me how playing in a 'different' position effects majorly on performance, which is why im so scathing about him and lampard.

They are paid XXXXX amount of money to play poorly, because they were 'in the wrong position?' rubbish imho, its nto like he was at left back then fair enough, but he played in midfield, hes a midfielder, does playign slightly back effect movement, energy levels and creativity, not for me it doesnt, sorry.

[Bill]

Lennon has played well, as has Hargreaves

Hargreaves is man of the match...no doubt.

suprisingly he has played well and deserved man of the match

Only just got in to this thread anyway what do you mean by surprisingly he played well I take it your one of those who slated him and thought he was crap though the last time before the World Cup he played in his favourite position was 2002

Hargreaves was class man of the match by a country mile ... or two, gutted we lost not just on penalites but to a pretty poor team to be honest that couldn't score to save their lives

[We-ARE-Walsall]

I don't think Gerrard was poor mate, didn't do as well as i would have hoped, but he was by no means poor. Hargreaves did well, just don't get carried away by it all.

Another question, if Hargreaves was the answer in that role, why did it take Sven so long to put him there? not arguing he should have, just why wasn't it tried in friendly games, or even any of the easy qualifying games we had

[Ian Gittins]

Hindsight is a wise beast. Had Sven dropped either Lampard or Gerrard for Hargreaves at the start of this World Cup, he'd have been crucified. Hargreaves was great yesterday, agreed, but he would not have been a popular choice.

[Bill]

I just wonder what McClaren will be doing to the team, hopefully dropping Lampard, a man who is paid a stupid amount of money per week but can't score when he had like 24 shots? it was around that anyway

I like Carrick but I prefer Hargreaves he just doesn't stop running plays with his heart pure passion, brilliant IMO

[Neuromantic]

I just wonder what McClaren will be doing to the team, hopefully dropping Lampard, a man who is paid a stupid amount of money per week but can't score when he had like 24 shots? it was around that anyway

I like Carrick but I prefer Hargreaves he just doesn't stop running plays with his heart pure passion, brilliant IMO

The only reason for me that he isnt glorified as much as Gerrard and Lampard, is due to the fact he doesnt play in the premiership and we dont see him week in , week out. I watch the Bundesliga quite a lot, and hes been bayerns best player this year. The Bloke is class, hes not in through luck, hes class. Be a great signing for Arsenal imho.

[kevin]

Another question, if Hargreaves was the answer in that role, why did it take Sven so long to put him there? not arguing he should have, just why wasn't it tried in friendly games, or even any of the easy qualifying games we had

Well said Blazing. The bloke has had two years to sort it out.................................and we entered the WC in total disarray. Friendly matches were abused,and we end up with no contingency plans for injuries,lack of form etc,.............. and s**t advice from Wenger.