Welcome. This site is an archived version of the previous UpTheSaddlers forum (December 2004 to May 2018). To visit the new UTS website, please click here.

WORLD CUP 2014

Walsall supporters react to England's despairs - as they happened. No text speak, please.
Forum rules
No swearing. No text speak. Don't avoid the swear filter.
User avatar
Tyldesley_saddler
UTS Legend
 
Posts: 2250
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:03 am
Location: Greater Manchester (Little Hulton).

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:20 pm

Manchester Saddler wrote:
SheffieldSaddler wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:Interesting views from Sheff, there - and from the cave as usual. :wink:

The bigger picture is that the FA's grand plan has failed spectacularly; otherwise, surely we would have won something by now. The players we have are simply not good enough because we are not investing in youth. All of the top teams are full of foreign players with little or no investment in English players - instead we have the likes of Chelsea et al investing in foreign youth players.

It's a sham - and a shame.


Are you therefore going to get the Government to withdraw from the EU then Manchester? i.e perhaps you may consider voting UKIP afterall?
I am not sure what you define as a foreign player for starters?
Under current law anyone can come to England as long as we are part of the EU. Therefore, how will the FA stop this happening?
The only way you can restrict is from non EU countries.
So what would you like to see Manchester in that respect?

Glad you mention Chelsea
They have 2 players in under 17 squad, 3 in under 19 and 2 in under 21.
Thats 7 players
Name me a Premiership team that has more.......


Now you're just being silly. If we want a successful England team then the Premiership clubs should ALL adjust their focus to nurture more English talent at the expense of foreign players, whether they be Dutch, German or Argentinian. The Premier League is not governed by UEFA; it is governed by the English FA, an organisation that is supposed to be focusing on English talent.

The initial promise of the Premiership was that it would improve the England squad and the England setup.

But what do we have? We have a bunch of clubs driven by money. The original concept of England winning trophies has all but disappeared.

Everybody foresaw it, and the clubs denied it. But just look at the statistics.

Last year, the BBC published the figures:

English footballers account for less than a third of all the minutes played in the Premier League, a State of the Game study for BBC Sport has found.
The figure for home country players - 32.26% - is down from 35.43% in 2007-08 and is significantly lower than all other major European leagues according to football statisticians Opta.


Compare that with Spain and Germany, both of whom are far more successful:

In La Liga, home of World Cup holders and European champions Spain, Spaniards account for 59% of all minutes played. In Germany's Bundesliga, Germans make up 50%.

The figures do not lie, Sheff.

The demise of English football is plain for all to see.

Can you deny the statistics?

You always seem keen to blame the manager but how can he pick a successful team from a bunch of players who, by own admission, are "not World Class"?

Or are you going to continue to labour a naive point?

We all know that you are a huge fan of the Premier League - but the reason that the Premier League is so successful is that the clubs splash out ridiculous sums of money on foreign players - at the expense of English players.

It is a fact so obvious that it could take you out for a beer and get you pissed.

You say you recognise FACTS. In this case you don't. The FACTS are there for all to see,

You put 2 and 2 together and make "CHELSEA ARE GREAT!" whereas the rest of us make 4.

:D :wink:



Cant say we agree on a lot Manc, but this ^.

User avatar
aaaae
Site Addict
 
Posts: 6780
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:38 am
Location: Beware, I bear more grudges than lonely High Court judges...

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:55 pm

SheffieldSaddler wrote:
aaaae wrote:
SheffieldSaddler wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:Interesting views from Sheff, there - and from the cave as usual. :wink:

The bigger picture is that the FA's grand plan has failed spectacularly; otherwise, surely we would have won something by now. The players we have are simply not good enough because we are not investing in youth. All of the top teams are full of foreign players with little or no investment in English players - instead we have the likes of Chelsea et al investing in foreign youth players.

It's a sham - and a shame.


Are you therefore going to get the Government to withdraw from the EU then Manchester? i.e perhaps you may consider voting UKIP afterall?
I am not sure what you define as a foreign player for starters?
Under current law anyone can come to England as long as we are part of the EU. Therefore, how will the FA stop this happening?
The only way you can restrict is from non EU countries.

Chelsea 1st team squad - 2 Serbians, 5 Brazillians, 3 Nigerians, 1 Egyptian, 1 Sengalese, 1 Ghanaian, 1 Burkino Fasan

14 non EU players. All bought with money stolen from the Russian people.


Who are the 5 Brazillians?
3 Nigerians?
etc etc
:roll:

Plastic fan.

User avatar
SheffieldSaddler
Site Addict
 
Posts: 6772
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:51 pm

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:05 am

aaaae wrote:
Plastic fan.


Like debating with a 1 year old :mrgreen:

User avatar
SheffieldSaddler
Site Addict
 
Posts: 6772
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:51 pm

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 am

Manchester Saddler wrote:
Now you're just being silly. If we want a successful England team then the Premiership clubs should ALL adjust their focus to nurture more English talent at the expense of foreign players, whether they be Dutch, German or Argentinian. The Premier League is not governed by UEFA; it is governed by the English FA, an organisation that is supposed to be focusing on English talent.

The initial promise of the Premiership was that it would improve the England squad and the England setup.

But what do we have? We have a bunch of clubs driven by money. The original concept of England winning trophies has all but disappeared.

Everybody foresaw it, and the clubs denied it. But just look at the statistics.

Last year, the BBC published the figures:

English footballers account for less than a third of all the minutes played in the Premier League, a State of the Game study for BBC Sport has found.
The figure for home country players - 32.26% - is down from 35.43% in 2007-08 and is significantly lower than all other major European leagues according to football statisticians Opta.


Compare that with Spain and Germany, both of whom are far more successful:

In La Liga, home of World Cup holders and European champions Spain, Spaniards account for 59% of all minutes played. In Germany's Bundesliga, Germans make up 50%.

The figures do not lie, Sheff.

The demise of English football is plain for all to see.

Can you deny the statistics?

You always seem keen to blame the manager but how can he pick a successful team from a bunch of players who, by own admission, are "not World Class"?

Or are you going to continue to labour a naive point?

We all know that you are a huge fan of the Premier League - but the reason that the Premier League is so successful is that the clubs splash out ridiculous sums of money on foreign players - at the expense of English players.

It is a fact so obvious that it could take you out for a beer and get you gypsy's.

You say you recognise FACTS. In this case you don't. The FACTS are there for all to see,

You put 2 and 2 together and make "CHELSEA ARE GREAT!" whereas the rest of us make 4.

:D :wink:


You miss the point on the Foreign players.
The FA would never win a case to restrict the number of EU nationals playing in the Premier League or limit the number per club.
That is one of my points.
Its a bit like saying, sorry Marks and Spencers, you are only allowed to employ 20% of your workforce from the EU.
Will never happen as we are part of the EU and thus have to allow the free trade in people and the work force.

Restricting players from non european countries may be a different kettle of fish, but the percentage of them in the Premiership is probably less than 10% I would think.

You cannot really blame the Premier League, you must blame the FA if you feel the Premier League is to blame as they run it, do they not?
Its a bit like blaming your local BP garage for being more expensive then a local BP garage 10 mile away, the prices are set by head office not by the station itself.
In other words blame the structure at the top who are making the rules and dictating to the people below.

I mentioned Chelsea in regards the English football thing simply because people incorrectly believe they are not investing in English players.
Unlike many Premier League clubs, they are attempting to get English players through the system, hence why they have more English players in the English youth system then many Premier League clubs.
Simples.

User avatar
kshammer
Site Addict
 
Posts: 3624
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:51 pm
Location: Paradise City

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:52 am

SheffieldSaddler wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:
Now you're just being silly. If we want a successful England team then the Premiership clubs should ALL adjust their focus to nurture more English talent at the expense of foreign players, whether they be Dutch, German or Argentinian. The Premier League is not governed by UEFA; it is governed by the English FA, an organisation that is supposed to be focusing on English talent.

The initial promise of the Premiership was that it would improve the England squad and the England setup.

But what do we have? We have a bunch of clubs driven by money. The original concept of England winning trophies has all but disappeared.

Everybody foresaw it, and the clubs denied it. But just look at the statistics.

Last year, the BBC published the figures:

English footballers account for less than a third of all the minutes played in the Premier League, a State of the Game study for BBC Sport has found.
The figure for home country players - 32.26% - is down from 35.43% in 2007-08 and is significantly lower than all other major European leagues according to football statisticians Opta.


Compare that with Spain and Germany, both of whom are far more successful:

In La Liga, home of World Cup holders and European champions Spain, Spaniards account for 59% of all minutes played. In Germany's Bundesliga, Germans make up 50%.

The figures do not lie, Sheff.

The demise of English football is plain for all to see.

Can you deny the statistics?

You always seem keen to blame the manager but how can he pick a successful team from a bunch of players who, by own admission, are "not World Class"?

Or are you going to continue to labour a naive point?

We all know that you are a huge fan of the Premier League - but the reason that the Premier League is so successful is that the clubs splash out ridiculous sums of money on foreign players - at the expense of English players.

It is a fact so obvious that it could take you out for a beer and get you gypsy's.

You say you recognise FACTS. In this case you don't. The FACTS are there for all to see,

You put 2 and 2 together and make "CHELSEA ARE GREAT!" whereas the rest of us make 4.

:D :wink:


You miss the point on the Foreign players.
The FA would never win a case to restrict the number of EU nationals playing in the Premier League or limit the number per club.
That is one of my points.
Its a bit like saying, sorry Marks and Spencers, you are only allowed to employ 20% of your workforce from the EU.
Will never happen as we are part of the EU and thus have to allow the free trade in people and the work force.

Restricting players from non european countries may be a different kettle of fish, but the percentage of them in the Premiership is probably less than 10% I would think.

You cannot really blame the Premier League, you must blame the FA if you feel the Premier League is to blame as they run it, do they not?
Its a bit like blaming your local BP garage for being more expensive then a local BP garage 10 mile away, the prices are set by head office not by the station itself.
In other words blame the structure at the top who are making the rules and dictating to the people below.

I mentioned Chelsea in regards the English football thing simply because people incorrectly believe they are not investing in English players.
Unlike many Premier League clubs, they are attempting to get English players through the system, hence why they have more English players in the English youth system then many Premier League clubs.
Simples.


With regards to your last point, I don't doubt that Chelsea are investing in trying to bring good English players through. I watched their youth team and they had quite a few English lads in there. The problem is that they never seem to come through though but to be fair, alot of the foreign kids don't either. For them to be really committed to the youth players, then maybe they should have promoted a player rather than sign someone like Salah who will only ever be a squad player with bigger names in the squad.

I suppose we've just got to hope that more teams follow Liverpool and Southampton's lead and believe in their young players more. It's not just about filling youth teams with young players, it's about actually believing in them and giving them game time.

User avatar
Manchester Saddler
Site Addict
 
Posts: 5510
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:04 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:06 pm

So how do Spain and Germany manage it then, Sheff?

I blame the FA 100% - and the reason is because they created the Premier League, which has just become a greedy mess - a monster, if you will, that does not help England or lower league clubs.

It's not just Chelsea - it's all of them!

User avatar
tinned
Site Addict
 
Posts: 10023
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:49 pm
Location: Same poo, different day!

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:13 pm

The clubs don't have to sign a raft of foreign players. Nobody can't ben the transfer of EU players but nobody is forcing the clubs to do so.

User avatar
Morty
Glitterati
 
Posts: 648
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:38 pm
Location: Consett, Co. Durham

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:05 pm

tinned wrote:The clubs don't have to sign a raft of foreign players. Nobody can't ban the transfer of EU players but nobody is forcing the clubs to do so.


And therein lies the problem, Premiership clubs/owners are in the business for themselves - not for English football (whatever they may claim!) - so how do you make people put something first, when they've got no interest/need for it? :(

User avatar
chestersaddler
Site Addict
 
Posts: 10191
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:21 am
Location: Europe

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:37 pm

[copied and pasted from Walsall match threads]

We need a striker.

philthesaddler
Site Addict
 
Posts: 5371
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:13 pm
Location: Bescot Stadium, 'the stadium that never closes'. Opening hours Mon-Fri 10am-4pm

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:38 pm

Just been listening to 5Live, they're putting forward all kinds of proposals to prevent this failure happening again, including:

Among the suggestions was to select a philosophy and go with it, have all teams, from youth to senior adopt this style etc.

However, I dont agree with this - the adoption of a philosophy is one thing, but if you simply haven't got the players to execute that system well, you wont get anywhere - just look at Walsall for a case in point. We play a very commendable style of football, but we have had no success because we dont have the quality players.

England need to do 2 things:

1) Get rid of Hodgson. He's not the man to take the national team forward, he's negative, very boring, and teams/players that play under him dont have much expression

2) Starting next season, force all English league clubs to have a minimum of 4 English players in their starting XI, then the following season that becomes 5, then the following season that becomes 6, then the following season 7.

This will force the top clubs to adopt aggressive development of English talent. There would be a temporary over-valuation of english players as top clubs seek to meet their quota, but this is the only way you will get a pool of players large enough to provide competition for an england shirt - at the moment, the start XI virtually picks itself, and the squad names itself.

I've got an old Premier League sticker book (95/96) and it is astonishing to see that squads were made up of 90% UK players, with 10% foreign players. Now, it's the other way round.

philthesaddler
Site Addict
 
Posts: 5371
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:13 pm
Location: Bescot Stadium, 'the stadium that never closes'. Opening hours Mon-Fri 10am-4pm

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:48 pm

SheffieldSaddler wrote:The FA would never win a case to restrict the number of EU nationals playing in the Premier League or limit the number per club.
That is one of my points.
Its a bit like saying, sorry Marks and Spencers, you are only allowed to employ 20% of your workforce from the EU.


You're correct that there is an EU ruling against the limitation of working rights, however, like everything else, there are always ways round.

Take cricket for example - they pay counties based on the amount of English players that play for them.

Why can't the premier league link the TV rights payments to the amount of English players that a team plays?

Imagine the impact that would have!

User avatar
saddla
Site Addict
 
Posts: 2932
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:18 am
Location: too far

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:57 pm

philthesaddler wrote:
SheffieldSaddler wrote:The FA would never win a case to restrict the number of EU nationals playing in the Premier League or limit the number per club.
That is one of my points.
Its a bit like saying, sorry Marks and Spencers, you are only allowed to employ 20% of your workforce from the EU.


You're correct that there is an EU ruling against the limitation of working rights, however, like everything else, there are always ways round.

Take cricket for example - they pay counties based on the amount of English players that play for them.

Why can't the premier league link the TV rights payments to the amount of English players that a team plays?

Imagine the impact that would have!


The cricketing world is hardly full of French, Germans, Spaniards etc though is it? If the EU found out that the cricket authorities were paying a county side less because they had a Belgian playing they would be up before the European courts faster than a Suarez bite.

User avatar
aaaae
Site Addict
 
Posts: 6780
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:38 am
Location: Beware, I bear more grudges than lonely High Court judges...

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:06 pm

philthesaddler wrote:
SheffieldSaddler wrote:The FA would never win a case to restrict the number of EU nationals playing in the Premier League or limit the number per club.
That is one of my points.
Its a bit like saying, sorry Marks and Spencers, you are only allowed to employ 20% of your workforce from the EU.


You're correct that there is an EU ruling against the limitation of working rights, however, like everything else, there are always ways round.

Take cricket for example - they pay counties based on the amount of English players that play for them.

Why can't the premier league link the TV rights payments to the amount of English players that a team plays?

Imagine the impact that would have!

Chelsea have 14 non EU nationals in their squad. EU employment law is a red herring.

User avatar
saddla
Site Addict
 
Posts: 2932
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:18 am
Location: too far

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:20 am

aaaae wrote:
philthesaddler wrote:
SheffieldSaddler wrote:The FA would never win a case to restrict the number of EU nationals playing in the Premier League or limit the number per club.
That is one of my points.
Its a bit like saying, sorry Marks and Spencers, you are only allowed to employ 20% of your workforce from the EU.


You're correct that there is an EU ruling against the limitation of working rights, however, like everything else, there are always ways round.

Take cricket for example - they pay counties based on the amount of English players that play for them.

Why can't the premier league link the TV rights payments to the amount of English players that a team plays?

Imagine the impact that would have!

Chelsea have 14 non EU nationals in their squad. EU employment law is a red herring.


The EU employment laws are there to protect the rights of any EU citizen to work in any EU country. I have worked in France, Germany and Belgium thanks to these laws.
Non EU citizens who wish to work in the UK have to get a work permit. The work permit laws are complicated but permit "International stars" to work here. Otherwise Actors and singers from the USA for example would not be able to perform in the UK. The same regulations apply to footballers and there are guidelines that state how they need to be "stars" with respect to International status etc.

User avatar
kshammer
Site Addict
 
Posts: 3624
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:51 pm
Location: Paradise City

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:42 am

As an aside to the young players discussion, I really hope the media delusion regarding the Premier League and the England players stops now.

Just yesterday I listened to Tony Gale say something along the lines of... "I still think our players are individually better than Uruguay and Italy's, but in tournaments they are collectively and individually not as good".

This is the problem. The myth that our individuals are somehow better than their opponents, and that the Premier League is supreme. The arrogance of that thinking is what holds us back - and in my opinion the players believe it too.

To still say we have better individuals than Italy is mind blowing. Before the game i'd have happily played 5 or 6 of Buffon, Barzagli, Chiellini, Veratti, De Rossi, Pirlo, Marchisio and Balottelli in our team. After the game, throw Darmian and Candreva into the mix as well. Probably less so with Uruguay but Godin, Cavani, Suarez prior to the game and after it, well it was more of who out of England's team would get in theirs.

Going forward we nead a reality check. The pride needs to come back to the shirt, and pick those who really want it, the ones who turn out for friendly games and show up even if they're carrying a knock. For all of Beckham's faults he would sit on a bench for England - will Stevie G do the same? Pick the lads in form as well. Although not tremendous players, the like of Curtis Davies and Ryan Shawcross deserved a call up far more than Chris Smalling - don't get me wrong, they'll never set the World alight but at least it shakes it up a bit.

User avatar
shrewsbury saddler
UTS Legend
 
Posts: 1466
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:06 pm

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:07 am

kshammer wrote:As an aside to the young players discussion, I really hope the media delusion regarding the Premier League and the England players stops now.

Just yesterday I listened to Tony Gale say something along the lines of... "I still think our players are individually better than Uruguay and Italy's, but in tournaments they are collectively and individually not as good".

This is the problem. The myth that our individuals are somehow better than their opponents, and that the Premier League is supreme. The arrogance of that thinking is what holds us back - and in my opinion the players believe it too.

To still say we have better individuals than Italy is mind blowing. Before the game i'd have happily played 5 or 6 of Buffon, Barzagli, Chiellini, Veratti, De Rossi, Pirlo, Marchisio and Balottelli in our team. After the game, throw Darmian and Candreva into the mix as well. Probably less so with Uruguay but Godin, Cavani, Suarez prior to the game and after it, well it was more of who out of England's team would get in theirs.

Going forward we nead a reality check. The pride needs to come back to the shirt, and pick those who really want it, the ones who turn out for friendly games and show up even if they're carrying a knock. For all of Beckham's faults he would sit on a bench for England - will Stevie G do the same? Pick the lads in form as well. Although not tremendous players, the like of Curtis Davies and Ryan Shawcross deserved a call up far more than Chris Smalling - don't get me wrong, they'll never set the World alight but at least it shakes it up a bit.

Plus, Greg Dyke thinks, they should have got Prince Harry there sooner. No, really
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 60567.html

User avatar
kshammer
Site Addict
 
Posts: 3624
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:51 pm
Location: Paradise City

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:11 am

shrewsbury saddler wrote:
kshammer wrote:As an aside to the young players discussion, I really hope the media delusion regarding the Premier League and the England players stops now.

Just yesterday I listened to Tony Gale say something along the lines of... "I still think our players are individually better than Uruguay and Italy's, but in tournaments they are collectively and individually not as good".

This is the problem. The myth that our individuals are somehow better than their opponents, and that the Premier League is supreme. The arrogance of that thinking is what holds us back - and in my opinion the players believe it too.

To still say we have better individuals than Italy is mind blowing. Before the game i'd have happily played 5 or 6 of Buffon, Barzagli, Chiellini, Veratti, De Rossi, Pirlo, Marchisio and Balottelli in our team. After the game, throw Darmian and Candreva into the mix as well. Probably less so with Uruguay but Godin, Cavani, Suarez prior to the game and after it, well it was more of who out of England's team would get in theirs.

Going forward we nead a reality check. The pride needs to come back to the shirt, and pick those who really want it, the ones who turn out for friendly games and show up even if they're carrying a knock. For all of Beckham's faults he would sit on a bench for England - will Stevie G do the same? Pick the lads in form as well. Although not tremendous players, the like of Curtis Davies and Ryan Shawcross deserved a call up far more than Chris Smalling - don't get me wrong, they'll never set the World alight but at least it shakes it up a bit.

Plus, Greg Dyke thinks, they should have got Prince Harry there sooner. No, really
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 60567.html


Dyke is fast becoming the laughing stock of our game - to say he's deluded is an understatement. What have Harry - or William - got to do with football for fudge sake?

The gravy train rolls on.

User avatar
SheffieldSaddler
Site Addict
 
Posts: 6772
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:51 pm

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:14 am

aaaae wrote:
philthesaddler wrote:
SheffieldSaddler wrote:The FA would never win a case to restrict the number of EU nationals playing in the Premier League or limit the number per club.
That is one of my points.
Its a bit like saying, sorry Marks and Spencers, you are only allowed to employ 20% of your workforce from the EU.


You're correct that there is an EU ruling against the limitation of working rights, however, like everything else, there are always ways round.

Take cricket for example - they pay counties based on the amount of English players that play for them.

Why can't the premier league link the TV rights payments to the amount of English players that a team plays?

Imagine the impact that would have!

Chelsea have 14 non EU nationals in their squad. EU employment law is a red herring.


And who are the 14..........

User avatar
SheffieldSaddler
Site Addict
 
Posts: 6772
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:51 pm

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:17 am

philthesaddler wrote:Just been listening to 5Live, they're putting forward all kinds of proposals to prevent this failure happening again, including:

Among the suggestions was to select a philosophy and go with it, have all teams, from youth to senior adopt this style etc.

However, I dont agree with this - the adoption of a philosophy is one thing, but if you simply haven't got the players to execute that system well, you wont get anywhere - just look at Walsall for a case in point. We play a very commendable style of football, but we have had no success because we dont have the quality players.

England need to do 2 things:

1) Get rid of Hodgson. He's not the man to take the national team forward, he's negative, very boring, and teams/players that play under him dont have much expression

2) Starting next season, force all English league clubs to have a minimum of 4 English players in their starting XI, then the following season that becomes 5, then the following season that becomes 6, then the following season 7.

This will force the top clubs to adopt aggressive development of English talent. There would be a temporary over-valuation of english players as top clubs seek to meet their quota, but this is the only way you will get a pool of players large enough to provide competition for an england shirt - at the moment, the start XI virtually picks itself, and the squad names itself.

I've got an old Premier League sticker book (95/96) and it is astonishing to see that squads were made up of 90% UK players, with 10% foreign players. Now, it's the other way round.


And how do you suggest the FA carry out point 2 you mention above?

User avatar
tinned
Site Addict
 
Posts: 10023
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:49 pm
Location: Same poo, different day!

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:12 pm

SheffieldSaddler wrote:
philthesaddler wrote:Just been listening to 5Live, they're putting forward all kinds of proposals to prevent this failure happening again, including:

Among the suggestions was to select a philosophy and go with it, have all teams, from youth to senior adopt this style etc.

However, I dont agree with this - the adoption of a philosophy is one thing, but if you simply haven't got the players to execute that system well, you wont get anywhere - just look at Walsall for a case in point. We play a very commendable style of football, but we have had no success because we dont have the quality players.

England need to do 2 things:

1) Get rid of Hodgson. He's not the man to take the national team forward, he's negative, very boring, and teams/players that play under him dont have much expression

2) Starting next season, force all English league clubs to have a minimum of 4 English players in their starting XI, then the following season that becomes 5, then the following season that becomes 6, then the following season 7.

This will force the top clubs to adopt aggressive development of English talent. There would be a temporary over-valuation of english players as top clubs seek to meet their quota, but this is the only way you will get a pool of players large enough to provide competition for an england shirt - at the moment, the start XI virtually picks itself, and the squad names itself.

I've got an old Premier League sticker book (95/96) and it is astonishing to see that squads were made up of 90% UK players, with 10% foreign players. Now, it's the other way round.


And how do you suggest the FA carry out point 2 you mention above?


What's stopping them do it? EU laws allow EU nationals to seek employment in other EU states. Nobody is saying these clubs can't employ these EU players, just that to start a match in a PL game there must be a minimum of English players. That rule wouldn't break any EU employment laws.

User avatar
aaaae
Site Addict
 
Posts: 6780
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:38 am
Location: Beware, I bear more grudges than lonely High Court judges...

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:18 pm

kshammer wrote:As an aside to the young players discussion, I really hope the media delusion regarding the Premier League and the England players stops now.

Just yesterday I listened to Tony Gale say something along the lines of... "I still think our players are individually better than Uruguay and Italy's, but in tournaments they are collectively and individually not as good".

This is the problem. The myth that our individuals are somehow better than their opponents, and that the Premier League is supreme. The arrogance of that thinking is what holds us back - and in my opinion the players believe it too.

To still say we have better individuals than Italy is mind blowing. Before the game i'd have happily played 5 or 6 of Buffon, Barzagli, Chiellini, Veratti, De Rossi, Pirlo, Marchisio and Balottelli in our team. After the game, throw Darmian and Candreva into the mix as well. Probably less so with Uruguay but Godin, Cavani, Suarez prior to the game and after it, well it was more of who out of England's team would get in theirs.

Going forward we nead a reality check. The pride needs to come back to the shirt, and pick those who really want it, the ones who turn out for friendly games and show up even if they're carrying a knock. For all of Beckham's faults he would sit on a bench for England - will Stevie G do the same? Pick the lads in form as well. Although not tremendous players, the like of Curtis Davies and Ryan Shawcross deserved a call up far more than Chris Smalling - don't get me wrong, they'll never set the World alight but at least it shakes it up a bit.

The media are absolutely delusional, but don't hold your breath on this changing. Gary Lineker said last week, after the Italy and Uruguay games that Wayne Rooney is world class!! :shock: :shock:

User avatar
saddla
Site Addict
 
Posts: 2932
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:18 am
Location: too far

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:12 pm

tinned wrote:
SheffieldSaddler wrote:
philthesaddler wrote:Just been listening to 5Live, they're putting forward all kinds of proposals to prevent this failure happening again, including:

Among the suggestions was to select a philosophy and go with it, have all teams, from youth to senior adopt this style etc.

However, I dont agree with this - the adoption of a philosophy is one thing, but if you simply haven't got the players to execute that system well, you wont get anywhere - just look at Walsall for a case in point. We play a very commendable style of football, but we have had no success because we dont have the quality players.

England need to do 2 things:

1) Get rid of Hodgson. He's not the man to take the national team forward, he's negative, very boring, and teams/players that play under him dont have much expression

2) Starting next season, force all English league clubs to have a minimum of 4 English players in their starting XI, then the following season that becomes 5, then the following season that becomes 6, then the following season 7.

This will force the top clubs to adopt aggressive development of English talent. There would be a temporary over-valuation of english players as top clubs seek to meet their quota, but this is the only way you will get a pool of players large enough to provide competition for an england shirt - at the moment, the start XI virtually picks itself, and the squad names itself.

I've got an old Premier League sticker book (95/96) and it is astonishing to see that squads were made up of 90% UK players, with 10% foreign players. Now, it's the other way round.


And how do you suggest the FA carry out point 2 you mention above?


What's stopping them do it? EU laws allow EU nationals to seek employment in other EU states. Nobody is saying these clubs can't employ these EU players, just that to start a match in a PL game there must be a minimum of English players. That rule wouldn't break any EU employment laws.


THE FIGHT AGAINST DISCRIMINATION Article 12 (ex Article 6) of the EC Treaty provides that any discrimination on the grounds of nationality is prohibited.
The European Court has made it clear that sport clubs, associations or federations have to take account of the non-discrimination principle when approving their internal codes and regulations. This principle has been used by the Court in later rulings which concerned restrictions on the participation of foreign players in games, selection procedures in competitions, transfer rules for football players, or the compatibility of anti-doping rules with competition law.
(copied from the EU website)

User avatar
ciscokid
UTS Legend
 
Posts: 1664
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:22 am
Location: Watch out for Germany--it's 3rd time lucky

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:21 pm

We have the players in England. If Costa Rica can qualify we can.
The problem with the England football team is the English FA. Keep appointing the wrong people to manage the country and offer huge contracts.
If my choice for England Manager would have been appointed we would still be in the world cup. HR

User avatar
SheffieldSaddler
Site Addict
 
Posts: 6772
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:51 pm

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:47 pm

ciscokid wrote:We have the players in England. If Costa Rica can qualify we can.
The problem with the England football team is the English FA. Keep appointing the wrong people to manage the country and offer huge contracts.
If my choice for England Manager would have been appointed we would still be in the world cup. HR


As much as I detest the man, yes, I agree we would be in the knockout stages at this point in time.

User avatar
Andy_Petterson
Glitterati
 
Posts: 1184
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:50 pm

Did we really finish the game against Costa Rica with Lampard and Gerrard playing together?

8 years after we discovered that couldn't play together at Germany 2006.

Both on the verge of retiring

What in chuff's name does that achieve?

At least they signed off with no goals :lol:

User avatar
Andy_Petterson
Glitterati
 
Posts: 1184
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:54 pm

Regarding England. Glass half full for me. Much more enjoyable to watch than the last couple of tournaments.

Thought we were very stupid against Uruguay. A draw would have been a perfectly acceptable result for us. They pretty much needed to win.

The way we played wasn't smart enough. It's ok playing attack football, but there's got to be an element of strategy too.

User avatar
Whitters
Site Addict
 
Posts: 2906
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:57 am

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:19 pm

kshammer wrote:As an aside to the young players discussion, I really hope the media delusion regarding the Premier League and the England players stops now.

Just yesterday I listened to Tony Gale say something along the lines of... "I still think our players are individually better than Uruguay and Italy's, but in tournaments they are collectively and individually not as good".

This is the problem. The myth that our individuals are somehow better than their opponents, and that the Premier League is supreme. The arrogance of that thinking is what holds us back - and in my opinion the players believe it too.

To still say we have better individuals than Italy is mind blowing. Before the game i'd have happily played 5 or 6 of Buffon, Barzagli, Chiellini, Veratti, De Rossi, Pirlo, Marchisio and Balottelli in our team. After the game, throw Darmian and Candreva into the mix as well. Probably less so with Uruguay but Godin, Cavani, Suarez prior to the game and after it, well it was more of who out of England's team would get in theirs.

Going forward we nead a reality check. The pride needs to come back to the shirt, and pick those who really want it, the ones who turn out for friendly games and show up even if they're carrying a knock. For all of Beckham's faults he would sit on a bench for England - will Stevie G do the same? Pick the lads in form as well. Although not tremendous players, the like of Curtis Davies and Ryan Shawcross deserved a call up far more than Chris Smalling - don't get me wrong, they'll never set the World alight but at least it shakes it up a bit.

I have to say that I'm with Gayle to an extent.
I assume you wrote the Italy comparison before seeing their last game.

And I've noticed that simplistically, it's the teams with the excellent goalies and a superb striker or 2 which are are doing well.
You can get the rest - the John Beausejours, the Bryan Ruiz's and all the other fringe Premiership players - and drill them into being solid pressing and marking machines.
Our goalie isn't the best and our strikers are at best average so we have no chance - clinical they aren't.

Hodgson may be a long haul Premiership manager but he's no tournament manager.
I mean, what did the Costa Rica game prove? Was it a stepping stone to anything? No.
Just another wishy washy throw them together effort.
I watched the game at a mates place and his missus said - innocently, as she doesn't follow football - "do the England players train together?"

And our players always seem like rabbits in headlights when they go abroad - we need to somehow ship out a large number of English players to overseas.
Problem is they aren't good enough or hungry enough to get that experience.
It's a national disgrace that we have pretty well zero players playing abroad.

They're not hungry enough folks.
That's why Prem clubs get in players from abroad, otherwise they drop out of the Prem with home-grown dross.

User avatar
kshammer
Site Addict
 
Posts: 3624
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:51 pm
Location: Paradise City

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:01 am

Whitters wrote:I assume you wrote the Italy comparison before seeing their last game.


I appreciate their form hasn't been the best and have gone out as well, but I stand by my opinion on watching those players over a number of years. The players I listed are every bit as good, if not better, than their English counterparts and have been for a while. They mostly play for huge Champions League clubs and only two years ago were in the Euro's final but appreciate they underachieved in this tournament. Fact is though, they went out, probably played rubbish in doing so but were still better than us. Add in Uruguay and Costa Rica didn't need to play well to get points off us and well, it looks bleak in the short term.

Agree with alot of the other stuff you (and your missus) said though. Not good enough or hungry enough - as you say, it explains why none of them play abroad too. The Gerrard and Rooney substitutions left me speechless against Costa Rica and looking forward i'm not relishing playing Switzerland away either. Watching Shaqiri play you can understand why our clubs go foreign at times - wasn't Lallana touted around at £30m while this bloke was (probably not now) meant to be available for around £20m?

Going forward, Woy isn't the man for me (albeit he's a nice bloke and will carry on regardless). I'd be scratching my head for a successor though. I'd like a Brendan Rogers type, but also want experience.

latviancheese
Site Addict
 
Posts: 13000
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:35 pm

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:13 pm

There really wasn't much between us an Italy, they were just as cack.

They just didn't have Phil Jagielka playing for them.

User avatar
gerryhatrick
UTS Legend
 
Posts: 2171
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:03 am
Location: Wherever I lay my hat.

Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:20 pm

When asked about his national teams semi-final performance, a Brazilian fan replied - " It was just like watching Walsall ".

PreviousNext
Return to England Highs & Lows

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests