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WORLD CUP 2014

Walsall supporters react to England's despairs - as they happened. No text speak, please.
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otiswfc
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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:49 pm

In euro 96 we had. Seaman pearce Adams platt mcmanaman Anderton Ince shearer Sheringham. Every single one of those players would get into the current side back then we had Ian wright and fowler on the bench it's quite frightening how we have gone backwards since then.

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Whitters
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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:23 pm

kshammer wrote:I hate to get on a 'sack the manager' bandwagon, but what now does Hodgson offer if we do go out? He is a gent, and i'm glad he was appointed over Redknapp, but going forward I can't see how he can get this England team working. He largely picked the squad/team I think most of us would pick, and played the formation I personally love watching, but it seemed to be against his nature. He is, and always has been, a more defensive manager and you could see that in the way the team played. On paper, it looked attacking, but in reality it was 4 attackers (often attacking as individuals) with a gap in midfield that a tank could drive through. To play that style, it has to be high tempo, high line and non stop closing down but out of the two teams, it was them who pressed hardest.

As for the defence, I think we just have to accept they're rubbish. Johnson is terrible, Baines can't defend and Cahill and Jagielka are nowhere near World Class. Who else do we pick? Shaw, Flanagan and Stones in future years but other than that there is very little out there for now.

It's a difficult job. There are no better players to choose and so it become about tactics and coaching going forward and accepting we are not that good. Hopefully there will be patience with the inexperienced players going forward though. Hopefully they can push on, but there seems to be a ceiling that our players hit and never get past. Look at Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney - they've been average for England and for some reason never kick on to the levels the star players of other teams do.

I agree with most of what you say.
To me, the difference at this level is all down to the coach.
What do Costa Rica have to work with - Brian Ruiz - a Fulham reserve....
I'm a saddler through and through but have also supported Liverpool for years.
Hodgson took the Liverpool side and basically created a disaster.
They played like they were confused, frightened, and clueless.
And there was no evidence of any style being created.
It was a bleak disaster.
He got moved on quickly.
England play the same - I won't call it a style because I haven't been able to identify any style there.
I'd be interested in the Spanish coach as he has had real success with the side in the past and created a style evident to everyone.
One thing for sure, Hodgson and the hangers-on must go before the Euros.
He's said he could coach a pub team to beat Man U - maybe he should be moved to pub football as he contributes nothing to the current level.
You're right about Johnson - he's a liability for Liverpool so shouldn't even make an England squad.
He put in to create the Rooney goal but it was a surprise to me as he normally doesn't have the bottle.

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Whitters
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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:40 pm

By the way, what's Suarez wearing over his stomach in the England game?

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Manchester Saddler
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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:25 pm

SheffieldSaddler wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:I agree Sheff - but Cahill isn't anywhere near World Class either. Just forget the fact he plays for Chelsea!!

The problems were all over but particularly in defence. Suarez should never have been allowed to score EITHER goal.

And we have no bite up front.


I didnt say he was World Class I said he would get in the German team! :mrgreen:


Well, I don't think he would!

:mrgreen: :wink:

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saddla
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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:51 am

:lol: saw this on twitter:

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shrewsbury saddler
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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:47 am

Might be just as well they went out early if this is anything to go by;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sh ... e-27937338
Being a lifelong Saddler, it amazes me when I come across people who haven't learnt to take footballing disappointment.
Few years ago I was watching England lose. At the final whistle , a man got up and before leaving, threw the remains of his pint where he'd been sitting. As if it was the pub's fault. :roll: Occasional fans, don't you love 'em!

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:10 am

We're not good enough and it frustrates the cack out of some of our administrators and fans that we can't go out and pay for success. We tried that by massively overpaying a couple of foreign coaches and it didn't work. We did OK against an average Italy side but looked tight and nervous against an awful Uruguay side to the point where the only world class player on the pitch only needed to be half fit to decide the game.

If Hodgsons had been true to himself he'd have picked Milner for the the first game and there's every chance that would have got us a point. But like Erikson with Beckham and Cappello with Lampard and Terry, he saw Rooney as some sort of sacred cow that needed to be accommodated.

I hope we finish on Tuesday with as young a team as possible.Shaw, Barklay, Lallana, Jones (who is still only 22), Chamberlain, Smalling getting starts. I'd also think about starting a different keeper as Hart has looked windier than Chicago on a particularly windy day.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:23 pm

PT wrote:We're not good enough and it frustrates the cack out of some of our administrators and fans that we can't go out and pay for success. We tried that by massively overpaying a couple of foreign coaches and it didn't work. We did OK against an average Italy side but looked tight and nervous against an awful Uruguay side to the point where the only world class player on the pitch only needed to be half fit to decide the game.

If Hodgsons had been true to himself he'd have picked Milner for the the first game and there's every chance that would have got us a point. But like Erikson with Beckham and Cappello with Lampard and Terry, he saw Rooney as some sort of sacred cow that needed to be accommodated.

I hope we finish on Tuesday with as young a team as possible.Shaw, Barklay, Lallana, Jones (who is still only 22), Chamberlain, Smalling getting starts. I'd also think about starting a different keeper as Hart has looked windier than Chicago on a particularly windy day.


I agree with all of that. I also agree with the Rooney comment, but i thought he was one of our best players v Uruguay. He looked a little like his old self. He needs to play "in the hole" or not at all because anywhere else he ruins the system.

Id give Hodgson the Euro's. If he can get us to defend as a team with that attacking pace on the flanks then who knows.

England needs to produce some centre backs soon though.....and a centre forward.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:26 pm

Whitters wrote:Hodgson took the Liverpool side and basically created a disaster.
They played like they were confused, frightened, and clueless.
And there was no evidence of any style being created.
It was a bleak disaster.


Liverpool were a disaster when he took over following Benitez final season. With the fans wanting Dalgleish for manager, Hodgson didn't stand much of a chance. As far as creating a style, he had 6 months before the fans got their wish. Dalgleish then royally fudge it up, including spending £35 million on a cart horse.

I love it when our fans confess to support a "big" team as well :lol:

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:51 pm

chestersaddler wrote:
Whitters wrote:Hodgson took the Liverpool side and basically created a disaster.
They played like they were confused, frightened, and clueless.
And there was no evidence of any style being created.
It was a bleak disaster.


Liverpool were a disaster when he took over following Benitez final season. With the fans wanting Dalgleish for manager, Hodgson didn't stand much of a chance. As far as creating a style, he had 6 months before the fans got their wish. Dalgleish then royally fudge it up, including spending £35 million on a cart horse.

I love it when our fans confess to support a "big" team as well :lol:


Exactly, Liverpool fans are fudge morons. Hodgson actually had a better win ratio than Dalgleish by the end of King Kennys reign. Hodgson also had to deal with the massive unrest Torres caused.

Sums Whitters up that he follows a team who's fans have spent the last month berating Rooney and Hodgson non stop. The Man Ure fans can fudge off too as they do exactly the same to Liverpool players. The bigger the football club the worse the supporter.

Premier league fans are Scunthorpe.

Thanks to the Premier League, there is the smallest pool of English players that any manager has ever had to choose from. Look at the defenders, fudge awful, Jagielka has probably played as many games against Walsall as he has against Arsenal.

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Whitters
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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:58 pm

saddlerken wrote:
chestersaddler wrote:
Whitters wrote:Hodgson took the Liverpool side and basically created a disaster.
They played like they were confused, frightened, and clueless.
And there was no evidence of any style being created.
It was a bleak disaster.


Liverpool were a disaster when he took over following Benitez final season. With the fans wanting Dalgleish for manager, Hodgson didn't stand much of a chance. As far as creating a style, he had 6 months before the fans got their wish. Dalgleish then royally donald it up, including spending £35 million on a cart horse.

I love it when our fans confess to support a "big" team as well :lol:


Exactly, Liverpool fans are donald morons. Hodgson actually had a better win ratio than Dalgleish by the end of King Kennys reign. Hodgson also had to deal with the massive unrest Torres caused.

Sums Whitters up that he follows a team who's fans have spent the last month berating Rooney and Hodgson non stop. The Man Ure fans can donald off too as they do exactly the same to Liverpool players. The bigger the football club the worse the supporter.

Premier league fans are Scunthorpe.

Thanks to the Premier League, there is the smallest pool of English players that any manager has ever had to choose from. Look at the defenders, donald awful, Jagielka has probably played as many games against Walsall as he has against Arsenal.

So you pair are happy to see Hodgson continue?
Why?
He's clueless - he's at WBA's level.
Also, Kenny boy, try blaming x-box and schools having pitches redeveloped for England's "small pool" of decent players.
That makes no difference anyway as I pointed out with Costa Rica - Bryan Ruiz chaps - a household name in the Premier League - not.
Hodgson is not the answer and I'm surprised you make excuses for him.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:18 am

I think this puts the nail in the coffin of the myth that the premier league would lead to a better England team. Pack of barclays.

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saddlerken
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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:58 am

Whitters wrote:So you pair are happy to see Hodgson continue?
Why?
He's clueless - he's at WBA's level.
Also, Kenny boy, try blaming x-box and schools having pitches redeveloped for England's "small pool" of decent players.
That makes no difference anyway as I pointed out with Costa Rica - Bryan Ruiz chaps - a household name in the Premier League - not.
Hodgson is not the answer and I'm surprised you make excuses for him.


You haven't got a clue. You appear to be defending the Premier League, no surprise there. X Box LOLOLOTHON

Your WBA comment is laughable. Im pretty sure that the season after he was booted out by those loyal Liverpool fans, WBA were for the most part of the season were doing as well as Liverpool until the last couple of months despite a massive difference in resources. He wasn't given a chance at Liverpool because he wasn't fashionable. His WBA team that season was the 3rd highest scorers away from home, puts to bed the bollox that he's negative.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:11 am

Whitters wrote:So you pair are happy to see Hodgson continue?
Why?
He's clueless - he's at WBA's level.
Also, Kenny boy, try blaming x-box and schools having pitches redeveloped for England's "small pool" of decent players.
That makes no difference anyway as I pointed out with Costa Rica - Bryan Ruiz chaps - a household name in the Premier League - not.
Hodgson is not the answer and I'm surprised you make excuses for him.


I'm happy for him to continue, yes. I have enjoyed watching England recently when compared to the sterile, conservative dross served up under Capello and Erickson. As someone posted, the problem is that you can't buy your way out of this one as PL can do. Your attitude is typical of those that support your other club and their cohorts: blame / change the manager.

The national side has won one cup in its history. A long term strategy is required rather than short term hype.

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Whitters
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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:48 pm

chestersaddler wrote:
Whitters wrote:So you pair are happy to see Hodgson continue?
Why?
He's clueless - he's at WBA's level.
Also, Kenny boy, try blaming x-box and schools having pitches redeveloped for England's "small pool" of decent players.
That makes no difference anyway as I pointed out with Costa Rica - Bryan Ruiz chaps - a household name in the Premier League - not.
Hodgson is not the answer and I'm surprised you make excuses for him.


I'm happy for him to continue, yes. I have enjoyed watching England recently when compared to the sterile, conservative dross served up under Capello and Erickson. As someone posted, the problem is that you can't buy your way out of this one as PL can do. Your attitude is typical of those that support your other club and their cohorts: blame / change the manager.

The national side has won one cup in its history. A long term strategy is required rather than short term hype.

We're going to have to differ on this then.
We're talking tournaments - a 3 game tournament - or in Hodgson and England's case a 2 game tournament.
So you need managers and staff who can motivate and fire up players to play the games of their lives quickly.
Hodgson doesn't come into this.
I'd pick Pulis, Mourinho, Poyet even Big Sam over him for this sort of stuff.
Ok so Hodgson took very average players at WBA and raised their level but honestly it was still drab and unwatchable and impossible to say what style they played.
He might be suited for the long grind of a league season but he's not suited to tournaments.
I don't expect England will ever win anything in my lifetime with the thinking that goes on around them.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:51 am

chestersaddler wrote:
I'm happy for him to continue, yes. I have enjoyed watching England recently when compared to the sterile, conservative dross served up under Capello and Erickson. As someone posted, the problem is that you can't buy your way out of this one as PL can do. Your attitude is typical of those that support your other club and their cohorts: blame / change the manager.

The national side has won one cup in its history. A long term strategy is required rather than short term hype.


You mean the conservative dross that got us out the groups when they were manager?
Give me that over the pathetic, incompetent team Roy has created any day of the week.

Anyone who honestly thinks Roy is the man to move England forward is deluded. He is the most boring manager of an England team I have ever come across.

Yes, a long term strategy is required, but this will be completely wasted if Roy is given the job to carry it out.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:03 am

Whitters wrote:So you need managers and staff who can motivate and fire up players to play the games of their lives quickly.
.


England approaching competitions with nothing more than a hot bubble of enthusiasm and willingness to run? No thanks.

Saw enough of the Graham Taylor approach to last a lifetime.

We need quality and intelligence. I'm happy to keep Roy for the Euros and maybe beyond if he displays further improvement. I think England play OK, we're just short of players thanks to the poison of the Prem.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:22 am

SaigonSaddler wrote:
Whitters wrote:So you need managers and staff who can motivate and fire up players to play the games of their lives quickly.
.


England approaching competitions with nothing more than a hot bubble of enthusiasm and willingness to run? No thanks.

Saw enough of the Graham Taylor approach to last a lifetime.

We need quality and intelligence. I'm happy to keep Roy for the Euros and maybe beyond if he displays further improvement. I think England play OK, we're just short of players thanks to the poison of the Prem.


Further improvement?
What?

First time England have qualified for World Cup and got knocked out in the group stages since 1958.
How is that improvement?

:roll:

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:07 am

There's a good article in the Guardian - the comments are full of wisdom and debate.

Sorry about the logo etc, I don't know how to remove it....

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blo ... -world-cup

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:50 am

SheffieldSaddler wrote:You mean the conservative dross that got us out the groups when they were manager?


In 2010, we scraped through a group in 2nd place which had USA, Slovenia and Algeria, the easiest group we've ever had.

We then got absolutely hammered by Germany, our worst and most embarrassing performance Ive ever seen in a world cup by England.

We weren't very good but also we weren't far away from getting through in reality, it basically came down to a couple of very small mistakes.

Only fans of Premier League clubs get a hard on over managers with a foreign surname.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:04 am

saddlerken wrote:Only fans of Premier League clubs get a hard on over managers with a foreign surname.

From wikipedia: "Hodgson could thus be derived from the Norse name Oddgeir, as suggested by earlier surname authorities. Alternatively, it could derive from the less frequent Norse name Hrodgeir"

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:26 am

saddlerken wrote:
SheffieldSaddler wrote:You mean the conservative dross that got us out the groups when they were manager?


In 2010, we scraped through a group in 2nd place which had USA, Slovenia and Algeria, the easiest group we've ever had.

We then got absolutely hammered by Germany, our worst and most embarrassing performance Ive ever seen in a world cup by England.

We weren't very good but also we weren't far away from getting through in reality, it basically came down to a couple of very small mistakes.

Only fans of Premier League clubs get a hard on over managers with a foreign surname.


But we got through the groups, thats the point.
Whether we "scraped" through or not, we got through without losing a match, end of.

Yes, we got beat by Germany but who knows what would have happened if Super Franks "goal" would have stood!

Roy is not the manager for England, we need someone with organization, good tactics and a will to win at any cost. Roy fails on all 3.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:39 am

Whitters wrote:There's a good article in the Guardian - the comments are full of wisdom and debate.

Sorry about the logo etc, I don't know how to remove it....

The bit about not having enough space to play is a complete red herring. Has anyone ever lived anywhere, or know anyone who has lived anywhere, where there wasn't a grassy area for a kick about within 10 minutes walk? More to the point I think that open spaces are much more under utilised than they used to be say 30 years ago, because of the prevalence of 24 hour kids tv, xbox, the web etc.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:12 pm

Interesting views from Sheff, there - and from the cave as usual. :wink:

The bigger picture is that the FA's grand plan has failed spectacularly; otherwise, surely we would have won something by now. The players we have are simply not good enough because we are not investing in youth. All of the top teams are full of foreign players with little or no investment in English players - instead we have the likes of Chelsea et al investing in foreign youth players.

It's a sham - and a shame.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:27 pm

Manchester Saddler wrote:Interesting views from Sheff, there - and from the cave as usual. :wink:

The bigger picture is that the FA's grand plan has failed spectacularly; otherwise, surely we would have won something by now. The players we have are simply not good enough because we are not investing in youth. All of the top teams are full of foreign players with little or no investment in English players - instead we have the likes of Chelsea et al investing in foreign youth players.

It's a sham - and a shame.


Are you therefore going to get the Government to withdraw from the EU then Manchester? i.e perhaps you may consider voting UKIP afterall?
I am not sure what you define as a foreign player for starters?
Under current law anyone can come to England as long as we are part of the EU. Therefore, how will the FA stop this happening?
The only way you can restrict is from non EU countries.
So what would you like to see Manchester in that respect?

Glad you mention Chelsea
They have 2 players in under 17 squad, 3 in under 19 and 2 in under 21.
Thats 7 players
Name me a Premiership team that has more.......

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:34 pm

It's also about attitude. Alot of the South American players are driven by a hunger to suceed and a real love of the shirt. Kids from Spain etc are brought up in academies where the history of the game, privilage of the shirt and a full, rounded education is pushed to make them grounded individuals. Our lot are offered £10K a week as soon as they're out of nappy's and grow up with either an inflated ego or one that is so brittle it destroys them under any pressure.

Obviously the Premier League hoovering talent up and ultimately wasting it (and most of em do it - not just Chelsea and City) is also a factor but we produce bumbling, stupid idiots who's egos are pampered so much they start to believe the hype.

If you're brilliant, the game is easy. If you're average but know your weaknesses and are willing to put your all in, you can also succeed. If you're average and don't know it then you aint got a chance. The FA needs an overhaul from top to bottom - it is one big gravy train that has not moved one step forward in all the time i've supported England. St Georges Park will also turn into a waste of money - £100m it cost. I reckon £100m invested in qualifying more coaches and setting up local subsidised training facilities would have been a far better use of the money.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:41 pm

SheffieldSaddler wrote:Glad you mention Chelsea
They have 2 players in under 17 squad, 3 in under 19 and 2 in under 21.
Thats 7 players
Name me a Premiership team that has more.......


I sincerley hope they come through at Chelsea as well - I really do.

Just can't see it happening but hope i'm wrong.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:51 pm

SheffieldSaddler wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:Interesting views from Sheff, there - and from the cave as usual. :wink:

The bigger picture is that the FA's grand plan has failed spectacularly; otherwise, surely we would have won something by now. The players we have are simply not good enough because we are not investing in youth. All of the top teams are full of foreign players with little or no investment in English players - instead we have the likes of Chelsea et al investing in foreign youth players.

It's a sham - and a shame.


Are you therefore going to get the Government to withdraw from the EU then Manchester? i.e perhaps you may consider voting UKIP afterall?
I am not sure what you define as a foreign player for starters?
Under current law anyone can come to England as long as we are part of the EU. Therefore, how will the FA stop this happening?
The only way you can restrict is from non EU countries.

Chelsea 1st team squad - 2 Serbians, 5 Brazillians, 3 Nigerians, 1 Egyptian, 1 Sengalese, 1 Ghanaian, 1 Burkino Fasan

14 non EU players. All bought with money stolen from the Russian people.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:02 pm

aaaae wrote:
SheffieldSaddler wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:Interesting views from Sheff, there - and from the cave as usual. :wink:

The bigger picture is that the FA's grand plan has failed spectacularly; otherwise, surely we would have won something by now. The players we have are simply not good enough because we are not investing in youth. All of the top teams are full of foreign players with little or no investment in English players - instead we have the likes of Chelsea et al investing in foreign youth players.

It's a sham - and a shame.


Are you therefore going to get the Government to withdraw from the EU then Manchester? i.e perhaps you may consider voting UKIP afterall?
I am not sure what you define as a foreign player for starters?
Under current law anyone can come to England as long as we are part of the EU. Therefore, how will the FA stop this happening?
The only way you can restrict is from non EU countries.

Chelsea 1st team squad - 2 Serbians, 5 Brazillians, 3 Nigerians, 1 Egyptian, 1 Sengalese, 1 Ghanaian, 1 Burkino Fasan

14 non EU players. All bought with money stolen from the Russian people.


Who are the 5 Brazillians?
3 Nigerians?
etc etc
:roll:

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Re: WORLD CUP 2014

Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:58 pm

SheffieldSaddler wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:Interesting views from Sheff, there - and from the cave as usual. :wink:

The bigger picture is that the FA's grand plan has failed spectacularly; otherwise, surely we would have won something by now. The players we have are simply not good enough because we are not investing in youth. All of the top teams are full of foreign players with little or no investment in English players - instead we have the likes of Chelsea et al investing in foreign youth players.

It's a sham - and a shame.


Are you therefore going to get the Government to withdraw from the EU then Manchester? i.e perhaps you may consider voting UKIP afterall?
I am not sure what you define as a foreign player for starters?
Under current law anyone can come to England as long as we are part of the EU. Therefore, how will the FA stop this happening?
The only way you can restrict is from non EU countries.
So what would you like to see Manchester in that respect?

Glad you mention Chelsea
They have 2 players in under 17 squad, 3 in under 19 and 2 in under 21.
Thats 7 players
Name me a Premiership team that has more.......


Now you're just being silly. If we want a successful England team then the Premiership clubs should ALL adjust their focus to nurture more English talent at the expense of foreign players, whether they be Dutch, German or Argentinian. The Premier League is not governed by UEFA; it is governed by the English FA, an organisation that is supposed to be focusing on English talent.

The initial promise of the Premiership was that it would improve the England squad and the England setup.

But what do we have? We have a bunch of clubs driven by money. The original concept of England winning trophies has all but disappeared.

Everybody foresaw it, and the clubs denied it. But just look at the statistics.

Last year, the BBC published the figures:

English footballers account for less than a third of all the minutes played in the Premier League, a State of the Game study for BBC Sport has found.
The figure for home country players - 32.26% - is down from 35.43% in 2007-08 and is significantly lower than all other major European leagues according to football statisticians Opta.


Compare that with Spain and Germany, both of whom are far more successful:

In La Liga, home of World Cup holders and European champions Spain, Spaniards account for 59% of all minutes played. In Germany's Bundesliga, Germans make up 50%.

The figures do not lie, Sheff.

The demise of English football is plain for all to see.

Can you deny the statistics?

You always seem keen to blame the manager but how can he pick a successful team from a bunch of players who, by own admission, are "not World Class"?

Or are you going to continue to labour a naive point?

We all know that you are a huge fan of the Premier League - but the reason that the Premier League is so successful is that the clubs splash out ridiculous sums of money on foreign players - at the expense of English players.

It is a fact so obvious that it could take you out for a beer and get you pissed.

You say you recognise FACTS. In this case you don't. The FACTS are there for all to see,

You put 2 and 2 together and make "CHELSEA ARE GREAT!" whereas the rest of us make 4.

:D :wink:

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