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England v Ukraine

Walsall supporters react to England's despairs - as they happened. No text speak, please.
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aaaae
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England v Ukraine

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:02 pm

Not seen much of Jack Wilshire, as I don't tend to watch Premiershite football, but he is having a stinker in Ukraine. Barely made a pass to a player in a red shirt all night. Gerrard appears to be a one man midfield at the mo.

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Fray Bentos is God!
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Re: England v Ukraine

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:34 pm

England's next overrated great white hope unfortunately.

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King Crimson
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Re: England v Ukraine

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:41 pm

It's ok, though. Greg Dyke has a plan.:idea:

:roll:

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aaaae
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Re: England v Ukraine

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:44 pm

That was painful to watch, England cannot string two passes together.

Reminded me of watching a pub team on St Georges playing fields on a Sunday morning.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:24 pm

King Crimson wrote:It's ok, though. Greg Dyke has a plan.:idea:

:roll:


That's for 2022 though....................when he'll be miles away, and where our excuse "the heat", is already in place.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:06 pm

Well that was exciting stuff wasnt it, no idea what Milner is doing there.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:16 am

Well played England. Job done.

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aaaae
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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:09 am

Magic Man Fan wrote:Well played England. Job done.

:lol:

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:30 am

Time to recognise Gerrard and Lampard are past it. Both of their pass accuracy in the opposing half was dreadful - Lampard's was just 55%

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aaaae
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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:31 am

Neil Ravenscroft wrote:Time to recognise Gerrard and Lampard are past it. Both of their pass accuracy in the opposing half was dreadful - Lampard's was just 55%

Where did you get the stats Neil?

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:32 am

So far behind in so many areas. Not a chance for 2022 and shows how reliant our lot are on the foreign players at club level. Little technique, no in game intelligence (as Shteve McClaren calls it) and too thin a pool of talent. Until youth coaching - from the idiot, shouting dads, to schools and youth teams, and on up to clubs - changes dramatically, we ay got a chance. Lucky Ukraine wor much better.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:45 am

aaaae wrote:
Neil Ravenscroft wrote:Time to recognise Gerrard and Lampard are past it. Both of their pass accuracy in the opposing half was dreadful - Lampard's was just 55%

Where did you get the stats Neil?

BBC. The overall stats for the midfield three were:

Steven Gerrard
90 Mins played
41 Passes
82.9% Pass completion
Frank Lampard
90 Mins played
43 Passes
76.7% Pass completion
Jack Wilshere
68 Mins played
16 Passes
75% Pass completion

The overall completion percentages aren't brilliant, but they look worse when most of the completions were in their own half, it seems.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:46 am

kshammer wrote:So far behind in so many areas. Not a chance for 2022 and shows how reliant our lot are on the foreign players at club level. Little technique, no in game intelligence (as Shteve McClaren calls it) and too thin a pool of talent. Until youth coaching - from the idiot, shouting dads, to schools and youth teams, and on up to clubs - changes dramatically, we ay got a chance. Lucky Ukraine wor much better.

The difference between individuals becomes painful if you are watching Brazil / Portugal on BT Sport!

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:52 am

Neil Ravenscroft wrote:Time to recognise Gerrard and Lampard are past it. Both of their pass accuracy in the opposing half was dreadful - Lampard's was just 55%


And who you going to replace them with?

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:57 am

SheffieldSaddler wrote:
Neil Ravenscroft wrote:Time to recognise Gerrard and Lampard are past it. Both of their pass accuracy in the opposing half was dreadful - Lampard's was just 55%


And who you going to replace them with?

Not the usual. Start building now with the likes of Barkley. It's pointless qualifying to just go there and be crap anyway. Look to the future instead.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:38 am

Neil Ravenscroft wrote:
aaaae wrote:
Neil Ravenscroft wrote:Time to recognise Gerrard and Lampard are past it. Both of their pass accuracy in the opposing half was dreadful - Lampard's was just 55%

Where did you get the stats Neil?

BBC. The overall stats for the midfield three were:

Steven Gerrard
90 Mins played
41 Passes
82.9% Pass completion
Frank Lampard
90 Mins played
43 Passes
76.7% Pass completion
Jack Wilshere
68 Mins played
16 Passes
75% Pass completion

The overall completion percentages aren't brilliant, but they look worse when most of the completions were in their own half, it seems.

I would love to know what the percentage of two or more consecutive completed passes was. My guess is less than 25%.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:49 am

Neil Ravenscroft wrote:
SheffieldSaddler wrote:
Neil Ravenscroft wrote:Time to recognise Gerrard and Lampard are past it. Both of their pass accuracy in the opposing half was dreadful - Lampard's was just 55%


And who you going to replace them with?

Not the usual. Start building now with the likes of Barkley. It's pointless qualifying to just go there and be crap anyway. Look to the future instead.


Too late now, the World Cup is next year!
Listen to what Dyke said last week, instead of spouting a load of crud.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:12 am

That's the problem really. I'd not throw Gerrard or Lampard out - the problem is that noone is near capable of coming through to replace them and they're hardly amazing in an England shirt. I've seen Carrick's name mentioned in the media as maybe warranting inclusion but he goes missing against half decent opposition and hardly offers a way forward.

Barkley could be a decent shout to be introduced if he continues his form at Everton and after the World Cup maybe the likes of Wil Hughes can move to a Premier League team where he'll get games and push on (as he looks a cracking prospect) but I do worry about the standard/numbers of defenders and attackers coming through.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:14 am

Im a bit annoyed we created nothing, but i always thought a point would be a good point. Difficult place to go, and they are really under rated i think. Yet their defence is average enough i expect at least one or two chances.

Defence played very well, and Hart was decent after a very shaky start.

Midfield was okay, as an attacking force i think it didnt help them that there was a serious lack of movement up front. Walcott had a stinker, and as he was basically our only counter attacking threat this killed most attacks off. Lambert had nothing to go on.

Ive got no problem with Gerrard and Lampard for the time being, but one of them needs to go off in the second half, you can see them tire, and England struggle. Wilshere was also completly nullified by the Ukrainians, which kills off attacks because they other two cant run with the ball. Barkley should be given a chance at home, Carrick should at least be in the squad even though i dont think he is the answer.

Walcott should have been replaced by Young earlier.

A good point, but worried about the performance, and i worried that people think we will easily beat Montenegro and Poland at home. We should, but when is it ever that easy?

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:34 am

not a great performance but a valuable point. you can't go gung-ho against a counter-attacking side. it amazes me that people see last night's game as evidence gerrard ain't good enough, or see just 1 wilshire performance and decide he ain't good enough.

fitness and form permitting, an attacking 3 of welbeck, rooney and sturridge is an exciting prospect. defoe needs to join a team where he's gonna play.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:05 pm

wfc & chips wrote:not a great performance but a valuable point. you can't go gung-ho against a counter-attacking side. it amazes me that people see last night's game as evidence gerrard ain't good enough, or see just 1 wilshire performance and decide he ain't good enough.

fitness and form permitting, an attacking 3 of welbeck, rooney and sturridge is an exciting prospect. defoe needs to join a team where he's gonna play.

It isn't one game. Gerrard will be 34 before the tournament starts, Lampard will be 36 while its on. If we are playing in hot conditions, God help us. It's time to say goodbye.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:23 pm

either side of pirlo's age when he played in the confederations cup then.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:27 pm

wfc & chips wrote:not a great performance but a valuable point. you can't go gung-ho against a counter-attacking side. it amazes me that people see last night's game as evidence gerrard ain't good enough, or see just 1 wilshire performance and decide he ain't good enough.

fitness and form permitting, an attacking 3 of welbeck, rooney and sturridge is an exciting prospect. defoe needs to join a team where he's gonna play.


Correct, all round.

Do people think we should be whipping Ukraine because they're not Spain it Brazil?

All we lacked was the cutting edge the usual strikers would have provided.

I maintain that Defoe is the best natural finisher we have had in his generation. He should have had more games, regardless of what is happening at club level.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:39 pm

When are people going to recognise and accept our position in world football? We are a very average team that will do well to get past the QF's of any international tournament for the foreseeable future. Anybody that thinks we're at a level where we are a realistic prospect of winning any of these tournaments needs a reality check IMHO. Until young English players are given a proper chance, from an early age, with the top clubs then we will not see enough players coming through that are good enough to help us compete at the top of world football. That's the very reason there is a lack of ready made replacements for Lampard/Gerrard.

While last night was far from good, I don't think it was half as bad as some are making out. Given the fact that it was all about not losing then it was a case of job done.

If you're fed up of watching players thta lack that little bit extra and can't retain possession for more than two passes then I suggest you aim your anger at "the greatest league in the world".

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:41 pm

tinned wrote:When are people going to recognise and accept our position in world football? We are a very average team that will do well to get past the QF's of any international tournament for the foreseeable future. Anybody that thinks we're at a level where we are a realistic prospect of winning any of these tournaments needs a reality check IMHO. Until young English players are given a proper chance, from an early age, with the top clubs then we will not see enough players coming through that are good enough to help us compete at the top of world football. That's the very reason there is a lack of ready made replacements for Lampard/Gerrard.

While last night was far from good, I don't think it was half as bad as some are making out. Given the fact that it was all about not losing then it was a case of job done.

If you're fed up of watching players thta lack that little bit extra and can't retain possession for more than two passes then I suggest you aim your anger at "the greatest league in the world".


This.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:55 pm

tinned wrote:When are people going to recognise and accept our position in world football? We are a very average team that will do well to get past the QF's of any international tournament for the foreseeable future. Anybody that thinks we're at a level where we are a realistic prospect of winning any of these tournaments needs a reality check IMHO. Until young English players are given a proper chance, from an early age, with the top clubs then we will not see enough players coming through that are good enough to help us compete at the top of world football. That's the very reason there is a lack of ready made replacements for Lampard/Gerrard.

While last night was far from good, I don't think it was half as bad as some are making out. Given the fact that it was all about not losing then it was a case of job done.

If you're fed up of watching players thta lack that little bit extra and can't retain possession for more than two passes then I suggest you aim your anger at "the greatest league in the world".

Whilst I agree that the Premier League is the root cause of the problems and that the result is more important than the performance in qualifying, if you see your team playing like a pile of crap, which they did, it is only fair to say so.

Reminds me of conversations I had with mates during last world cup finals who kept assuring me that once we were through the group games, where we played like a pile of crap, everything would be fine. Of course, we were absolutely humiliated by Germany and if we play like we did last night against one of the better teams we will have the same result again in Brazil.
Last edited by aaaae on Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:18 pm

You won't get anything to change when you get armchair fans on phone ins (I think he was a Gooner), saying we should be going place like this and winning 3 or 4 nil. The ignorance of world football not to know where Ukraine stand in the rankings beggars belief. He said Germany would go and win there, ignoring the fact, of course, that the last time they played their in a competitive game, it was 0 - 0!

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:37 pm

On the plus side, Cahill looks like he is the next bloke on for 50/60 caps. Solid performer.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:43 pm

latviancheese wrote:On the plus side, Cahill looks like he is the next bloke on for 50/60 caps. Solid performer.

The defence was definitely a positive.

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Re: England v Ukraine

Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:05 pm

latviancheese wrote:On the plus side, Cahill looks like he is the next bloke on for 50/60 caps. Solid performer.


I agree. Physically, he's like a slightly less imposing Lee Beevers.

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