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Der Kaiser

Walsall supporters react to England's despairs - as they happened. No text speak, please.
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aaaae
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Der Kaiser

Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:24 am

Anyone else think that Franz might be getting carried away along with the German tabloids.

He should know the difference between playing at sea level and playing at altitude from Mexico '70. Can't wait for the Jerries to come down with a bump when they play their first game in the knock out stage at altitude in Bloemfontein.

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Re: Der Kaiser

Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:49 pm

"The English are being punished for the fact that there are very few English players in the Premier League as clubs use better foreign players from all over the world"

I'd say that's about right isn't it? Of course, one thing we do have in the Premier League is a surfeit of goalkeepers who have played at the top level in European competition for years - hence the excellent choice of keepers we have to choose from.

Oh.

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Re: Der Kaiser

Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:26 pm

bangsection wrote:"The English are being punished for the fact that there are very few English players in the Premier League as clubs use better foreign players from all over the world"

I don't buy this argument unless the foreign players aren't much cop.

I can only see Gerrard benefitting from playing with Mascherano and Torres and Lampard benefitting from playing with Drogba and Essien.

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Re: Der Kaiser

Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:55 pm

PJD wrote:
bangsection wrote:"The English are being punished for the fact that there are very few English players in the Premier League as clubs use better foreign players from all over the world"

I don't buy this argument unless the foreign players aren't much cop.

I can only see Gerrard benefitting from playing with Mascherano and Torres and Lampard benefitting from playing with Drogba and Essien.


What about English players like Gordon Sproggins, Albert Pinkerton and Donald (the cat) Harrison?

Never heard of them? Neither have I because they weren't given the opportunity to develop as top quality footballers. Instead we had people from the Ivory coast playing in the top flight. Good for them, but English players have been left behind.

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Re: Der Kaiser

Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:20 pm

Its also bumped up the price of english players though, the fact that good ones are hard to come by. So the cheaper alternative is to go Foreign.

I agree though, i hate seeing all these second rate foreigners being played instead of English players.

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Re: Der Kaiser

Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:43 pm

PJD wrote:
bangsection wrote:"The English are being punished for the fact that there are very few English players in the Premier League as clubs use better foreign players from all over the world"

I don't buy this argument unless the foreign players aren't much cop.

I can only see Gerrard benefitting from playing with Mascherano and Torres and Lampard benefitting from playing with Drogba and Essien.


I think Gerrard and Lampard playing with great players probably benefits Chelsea and Liverpool but whether it benefits England or not is a moot point. Of course, the opposite argument is that Lampard (for example) has always failed to play as well for England precisely because Drogba and Essien are not English.

There's a chicken and egg argument here. Is the dearth of technically gifted English players because youngsters aren't given a chance, or are English youngsters not given a chance because they are not technically gifted enough? Whichever it is, the fact remains that the amount of money sloshing around in the Premier League means that it's always easier for a team to buy a ready-made left winger or right back from abroad than to put trust in a home-grown player.

It's something the Premier League and UEFA are clearly worried about too - hence the clubs signing up to the new law which demands that 8 of every 25 players in a Premier League squad must be home-grown from next season. It's something I'm in favour of - let's hope it has some sort of positive effect on the England team in years to come.

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Re: Der Kaiser

Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:59 pm

The Premiership is a cancerous growth eating the body and soul of football in England.

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Re: Der Kaiser

Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:17 pm

What he said about the foreign players playing in the Premiership may hold some weight, but England were no where near as bad as he was making out, in fact we are still one of the better sides I have seen so far.

Germany were pretty good it's true, but I get the feeling he is a bit worried about England finishing second and meeting them in the next round.

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Re: Der Kaiser

Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:21 pm

Blazing_Saddler wrote:Germany were pretty good it's true


I don't think germany were that good, much more that Australia were that bad their opposition couldn't help but look like worldbeaters.

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Re: Der Kaiser

Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:28 pm

Exile wrote:
Blazing_Saddler wrote:Germany were pretty good it's true


I don't think germany were that good, much more that Australia were that bad their opposition couldn't help but look like worldbeaters.


Yeah, I meant to mention that in my post. I don't think Germany would fancy playing England at such an early stage of the competition if given the choice. I wouldn't mind, I don't think that any team is head and shoulders apart from the rest (although we haven't seen Spain yet) It's there to be taken in my opinion.

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Re: Der Kaiser

Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:44 pm

bangsection wrote:"The English are being punished for the fact that there are very few English players in the Premier League as clubs use better foreign players from all over the world"

I'd say that's about right isn't it? Of course, one thing we do have in the Premier League is a surfeit of goalkeepers who have played at the top level in European competition for years - hence the excellent choice of keepers we have to choose from.

Oh.


I think it's more the fact that we fail to export, we have no players in the squad who play, or have played abroad, therefore they have no knowledge of other footballing styles and cultures which might help us to adapt.

Most of the other major footballing nations have players who play abroad and are more successful for it, Brazil and Argentina being the prime examples.

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Re: Der Kaiser

Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:21 am

Agreed, I really wish some of our players would move to some of the other big euro leagues, the experience of working under different coaching and systems would surely add to the pool of talent for the national side.

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Re: Der Kaiser

Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:37 am

derbysaddler wrote:Agreed, I really wish some of our players would move to some of the other big euro leagues, the experience of working under different coaching and systems would surely add to the pool of talent for the national side.


There was a time not so long ago, Italy wouldn't pick any players that moved abroad. I'm not sure I disagree with it that much either.

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Re: Der Kaiser

Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:29 am

Blazing_Saddler wrote:
derbysaddler wrote:Agreed, I really wish some of our players would move to some of the other big euro leagues, the experience of working under different coaching and systems would surely add to the pool of talent for the national side.


There was a time not so long ago, Italy wouldn't pick any players that moved abroad. I'm not sure I disagree with it that much either.

Non of the Italian, German or English teams play abroad (according to a commentator I heard the other day - feel free to correct if he's wrong).

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Re: Der Kaiser

Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:37 am

bangsection wrote:There's a chicken and egg argument here. Is the dearth of technically gifted English players because youngsters aren't given a chance, or are English youngsters not given a chance because they are not technically gifted enough?

This is the nub of the argument. Take Everton as an example. Rooney started for them when he was how old? So if you have the talent you'll play.

And Scott Dann got released possibly because of your reasoning above. But where is he playing now? So if your not quite as talented as Rooney you might have to drop down and build a career. Either way they have to earn the right to play in competition with the best players on the planet.

I would point to English football before the Premier league, was it jam packed with young technically gifted English players? Was it heck! Those were the days when someone with the talent of Vinnie Jones or Carlton Palmer could play in the top division.

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Re: Der Kaiser

Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:10 am

Blazing_Saddler wrote:
derbysaddler wrote:Agreed, I really wish some of our players would move to some of the other big euro leagues, the experience of working under different coaching and systems would surely add to the pool of talent for the national side.


There was a time not so long ago, Italy wouldn't pick any players that moved abroad. I'm not sure I disagree with it that much either.


I suppose it depends on the player's individual talent, Italy has made exceptions in the past like with Christian Vieri and Luca Toni. Spain don't have a problem with selecting Fabregas and Torres.

I'd be really interested to see how younger more technically gifted players would get on in the Spanish league.

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Re: Der Kaiser

Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:21 pm

Im not sure who the Russian manager was at the time a few years ago, but for alot of games he only picked home based players. They had the opposite problem though, all their best players move abroad.

It did work for a while, although they somehow didnt qualify for the WC :?

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Re: Der Kaiser

Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:38 pm

PJD wrote:
bangsection wrote:There's a chicken and egg argument here. Is the dearth of technically gifted English players because youngsters aren't given a chance, or are English youngsters not given a chance because they are not technically gifted enough?

This is the nub of the argument. Take Everton as an example. Rooney started for them when he was how old? So if you have the talent you'll play.

And Scott Dann got released possibly because of your reasoning above. But where is he playing now? So if your not quite as talented as Rooney you might have to drop down and build a career. Either way they have to earn the right to play in competition with the best players on the planet.

I would point to English football before the Premier league, was it jam packed with young technically gifted English players? Was it heck! Those were the days when someone with the talent of Vinnie Jones or Carlton Palmer could play in the top division.


I think that's broadly right - for a country with so much money sloshing around in football we simply don't produce enough talented youngsters. It's no secret why - the coaching system in this country is woeful. Spain has one UEFA qualified coach for every 17 players; we have one for every 812. We're lagging behind almost every comparable European nation, which is why countries like Denmark, France, Spain, Germany, Holland, Italy and Greece have all won World Cups or European Championships more recently than we have.

The FA spent three quarters of a billion pounds on a national stadium that is unfit for purpose, yet still haven't started work on the National Football Centre at Burton, nine years after starting the project. Their culpable neglect of the national game is nothing short of a disgrace.

More on the woeful state of British coaching, and why everyone agrees that it can only hinder the England team, here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010 ... ge-england

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