Coventry City (A) League One Wed Mar 5, 7.45pm

[We-ARE-Walsall]

Having been watching Walsall for 59 years, I am only too aware of the type of player that we can afford to sign. However, even the most limited player can, at least, try his best and look interested. Supporters will often be more tolerant and supportive of a player when things are not going for him providing it is clear that he is trying his best. I'm sorry but watching Westcarr makes me angry. His performance and effort on the pitch is truly appalling. Yes, I know that he had a successful 3 months at the start of the season, but that doesn't justify his poor displays since then. Putting it bluntly, he needs a rocket up his backside!

Downing was not too bad tonight. I think his form suffers when Butler is not at his best.

... and, yes, I will be disappointed if, as seems likely, we miss out on the play-offs again. I want to see Walsall at Wembley before I shuffle off this mortal coil!

Be lucky if we make it before my Grand kids have passed on, and I don't have any yet !

I do respect your opinion, I know you've been following Walsall a lot longer than myself, and you watch a lot more football in general. I feel you are wrong about Westcarr though, he is lazy, he isn't the best finisher in the world either, putting it mildly, he isn't all that quick, doesn't sound great. However, his movement off the ball is better than anyone else we have, and he has moments of quality that our other players just aren't capable of. Of course whilst we are playing so poorly, his deficiencies show through, more than his positive attributes, but he does have some, unlike many players we have had in recent times.

I find Westcarr far less frustrating than the over-rated Lalkovic to be honest, but that's another story.

[JAL-WFC]

Having been watching Walsall for 59 years, I am only too aware of the type of player that we can afford to sign. However, even the most limited player can, at least, try his best and look interested. Supporters will often be more tolerant and supportive of a player when things are not going for him providing it is clear that he is trying his best. I'm sorry but watching Westcarr makes me angry. His performance and effort on the pitch is truly appalling. Yes, I know that he had a successful 3 months at the start of the season, but that doesn't justify his poor displays since then. Putting it bluntly, he needs a rocket up his backside!

Downing was not too bad tonight. I think his form suffers when Butler is not at his best.

... and, yes, I will be disappointed if, as seems likely, we miss out on the play-offs again. I want to see Walsall at Wembley before I shuffle off this mortal coil!

Be lucky if we make it before my Grand kids have passed on, and I don't have any yet !

I do respect your opinion, I know you've been following Walsall a lot longer than myself, and you watch a lot more football in general. I feel you are wrong about Westcarr though, he is lazy, he isn't the best finisher in the world either, putting it mildly, he isn't all that quick, doesn't sound great. However, his movement off the ball is better than anyone else we have, and he has moments of quality that our other players just aren't capable of. Of course whilst we are playing so poorly, his deficiencies show through, more than his positive attributes, but he does have some, unlike many players we have had in recent times.

I find Westcarr far less frustrating than the over-rated Lalkovic to be honest, but that's another story.

Are you sure?

In my opinion, Westcarr's movement is non-existent. He is not the sole reason for our current form, but there is a distinct lack of movement up top, with Westcarr contributing massively to this pitfall. The only time he seems to move is when he occasionally closes down the keep at a very lackadaisical pace. However, I do not want to undermine what he does bring to the team; when he plays well he is a very intelligent footballer. When he plays badly however, he may as well be rotting on the bench. We need someone to run in behind defenders as we just dont have anyone capable of creating space in the final third.

As I said before, he is as much as a number 9 as Lalkovic is a Championship quality footballer.

[MPSADDLER]

Both Sawyers and Westcarr have to be dropped. A common trait of attacking black players is pace and power. These two are the antidote of that with their wishy washy one twos leading to nowhere. Both think they are better than they actually are.

Embarrassing post.

Embarrassing and racist.

I cannot see a racist comment anywhere, please enlighten us. All he has done is wrongly assume most black players are quick and strong.

Name me a black striker/attacking midfielder who is slower than Westcarr and Sawyers ?

[TheGilbertAlsop]

Both Sawyers and Westcarr have to be dropped. A common trait of attacking black players is pace and power. These two are the antidote of that with their wishy washy one twos leading to nowhere. Both think they are better than they actually are.

Embarrassing post.

Embarrassing and racist.

I cannot see a racist comment anywhere, please enlighten us. All he has done is wrongly assume most black players are quick and strong.

Name me a black striker/attacking midfielder who is slower than Westcarr and Sawyers ?

MPSADDLER - There is no need to keep mentioning that Westcarr and Sawyers are black. For one, we already know and two, it has got absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they are good players. If you take out the word 'black' from your original remark then you are expressing an opinion, which is fine. But by choosing to use the word 'black' you are insinuating that there actual colour of their skin should make them have pace and power, which is ridiculous stereotyping and implies that is all you expect from black people.
By all means criticise these players for being 'wishy washy' (I don't agree with you but you are entitled to that opinion) but please don't mention that they are black. This really does alter the tone of your argument - from an attack on the lack of skills of two players to one of unnecessary racial stereotyping.
Thanks.

[OWEN1955]

Gutless and do not have that winners mentality, that's how I feel about this side at thIS moment due to anger and frustration. 3 poor results against Crawley, MK and Coventry which we should have done a whole lot better considering what is up for grabs. Yes we play great football and have a bunch of kids/ freebies etc but it will/would not take something special to beat Posh to that last P/O place and we have more than likely blown it. Just like last season when it comes to the crunch we do not have what it takes.

Goals wins games and that has been our achilles heal all season, Westcarr aside the whole team has to stand up and be counted and also Smith for not addressing the situation.

Lets hope the disappointment and anger they should be feeling about themselves will spur them on next season.

When you say all of the team i don't think you can include O'Donnell in that statement. If it wasn't for him in the alst few matches and again alst night with his save from Butlers mis-kick we would have lost by a lot bigger margin.

[IHTC.]

Gutless and do not have that winners mentality, that's how I feel about this side at thIS moment due to anger and frustration. 3 poor results against Crawley, MK and Coventry which we should have done a whole lot better considering what is up for grabs. Yes we play great football and have a bunch of kids/ freebies etc but it will/would not take something special to beat Posh to that last P/O place and we have more than likely blown it. Just like last season when it comes to the crunch we do not have what it takes.

Goals wins games and that has been our achilles heal all season, Westcarr aside the whole team has to stand up and be counted and also Smith for not addressing the situation.

Lets hope the disappointment and anger they should be feeling about themselves will spur them on next season.

When you say all of the team i don't think you can include O'Donnell in that statement. If it wasn't for him in the alst few matches and again alst night with his save from Butlers mis-kick we would have lost by a lot bigger margin.

Read again.

[Aldridge_saddler]

Bottom of the form table;

Last 6 matches (overall) P W D L GF GA Dif Pts
1 Wolverhampton 6 6 0 0 16 1 +15 18
2 Sheffield Utd 6 6 0 0 10 0 +10 18
3 Rotherham 6 4 2 0 15 6 +9 14
4 Preston 6 3 3 0 10 7 +3 12
5 Brentford 6 3 2 1 9 7 +2 11
6 Milton Keynes 6 3 1 2 7 4 +3 10
7 Crawley Town 6 2 4 0 9 7 +2 10
8 Leyton Orient 6 3 1 2 9 7 +2 10
9 Crewe Alexandra 6 2 2 2 11 9 +2 8
10 Tranmere 6 2 2 2 10 9 +1 8
11 Oldham 6 2 2 2 7 7 0 8
12 Bristol City 6 2 2 2 9 10 -1 8
13 Carlisle Utd 6 2 1 3 6 7 -1 7
14 Bradford 6 2 1 3 7 9 -2 7
15 Peterborough 6 2 1 3 7 9 -2 7
16 Stevenage 6 2 1 3 6 8 -2 7
17 Coventry City 6 2 1 3 6 10 -4 7
18 Swindon Town 6 1 3 2 5 7 -2 6
19 Gillingham 6 2 0 4 7 10 -3 6
20 Shrewsbury 6 1 3 2 5 8 -3 6
21 Port Vale 6 1 1 4 5 10 -5 4
22 Notts County 6 1 0 5 6 18 -12 3
23 Colchester 6 0 2 4 2 7 -5 2
24 Walsall 6 0 2 4 4 10 -6 2

[JonnyOwen]

Lalkovic simply cannot play with Benning. I hate criticising players, but I have to. All he does is pick the ball up after a short pass from Benning, and then go on this sideways run across the width of the pitch with the ball, which ends up with him further from the goal than when he picked the ball up whilst also meaning he is out of position. That is all he seems to do.

If the league was determined on the amount of defensive possession, we would be world champions.

[aaaae]

Bottom of the form table;

Last 6 matches (overall) P W D L GF GA Dif Pts
1 Wolverhampton 6 6 0 0 16 1 +15 18
24 Walsall 6 0 2 4 4 10 -6 2

We are bottom and our next opponents are top.

[We-ARE-Walsall]

Having been watching Walsall for 59 years, I am only too aware of the type of player that we can afford to sign. However, even the most limited player can, at least, try his best and look interested. Supporters will often be more tolerant and supportive of a player when things are not going for him providing it is clear that he is trying his best. I'm sorry but watching Westcarr makes me angry. His performance and effort on the pitch is truly appalling. Yes, I know that he had a successful 3 months at the start of the season, but that doesn't justify his poor displays since then. Putting it bluntly, he needs a rocket up his backside!

Downing was not too bad tonight. I think his form suffers when Butler is not at his best.

... and, yes, I will be disappointed if, as seems likely, we miss out on the play-offs again. I want to see Walsall at Wembley before I shuffle off this mortal coil!

Be lucky if we make it before my Grand kids have passed on, and I don't have any yet !

I do respect your opinion, I know you've been following Walsall a lot longer than myself, and you watch a lot more football in general. I feel you are wrong about Westcarr though, he is lazy, he isn't the best finisher in the world either, putting it mildly, he isn't all that quick, doesn't sound great. However, his movement off the ball is better than anyone else we have, and he has moments of quality that our other players just aren't capable of. Of course whilst we are playing so poorly, his deficiencies show through, more than his positive attributes, but he does have some, unlike many players we have had in recent times.

I find Westcarr far less frustrating than the over-rated Lalkovic to be honest, but that's another story.

Are you sure?

In my opinion, Westcarr's movement is non-existent. He is not the sole reason for our current form, but there is a distinct lack of movement up top, with Westcarr contributing massively to this pitfall. The only time he seems to move is when he occasionally closes down the keep at a very lackadaisical pace. However, I do not want to undermine what he does bring to the team; when he plays well he is a very intelligent footballer. When he plays badly however, he may as well be rotting on the bench. We need someone to run in behind defenders as we just dont have anyone capable of creating space in the final third.

As I said before, he is as much as a number 9 as Lalkovic is a Championship quality footballer.

Yeah I am sure, although I will totally agree, he hasn't been great lately, he isn't on his own, and his poor form is one of the reasons we are struggling. I do realise he isn't one of the best in our league or anything like that, I also agree he isn't a number 9, he has been asked to do that job, and he has done it better than anyone else we have got this season. If there are any better players out there willing to come and play for us, then great, I'd be happy with that, but pretty much like Pedagogue said, there isn't.

To the other bloke, I'm not sure what him being black has to do with anything at all, we are just talking about his footballing ability (or lack of it, if you like)

I realise everyone has different opinion's about football, I totally respect Pedagogues views on football, I just disagree, the colour of his skin shouldn't matter, he isn't the first striker we've had that has been judged more by this, than his actual ability. It took Lightbourne over 70 goals to stop getting called lazy.

[aaaae]

Last night Westcarr made himself soooooo easy to mark. Just sitting on the defenders shoulder content to stay on the other side and offering no option for a pass from Lalkovic (re JohnnyOwen's post), or for anyone else for that matter. Movement is the key for a good striker, mixing up coming short for a quick pass or making runs into the channels for balls slipped in behind the defenders (which was David Kelly's forte), or dragging the central defenders out wide, so that midfielders like Brandy and Lalkovic can burst into the space. That way defenders get tired, because they don't know if they are coming or going and that in itself creates space and opportunities.

[kshammer]

Just read back over this thread... have I honestly just read a discussion about black players should be fast and powerful?

We have some massive retard fans.

[aaaae]

The wide empty spaces of Sixfields....

[Leatherman]

Just read back over this thread... have I honestly just read a discussion about black players should be fast and powerful?

We have some massive retard fans.

I think what he's trying to say is that generally, black athletes are quick and strong. As most of the world's finest sprinters fit into this category I can't disagree.

P.S. Westcarr 20 goal a season player? Delusional. I can't see him being with us after this season.

[saddlersjse]

It's frustrating to hear Smith, as much as I like him and everything, say some of the things he does post-match. I understand that he doesn't want to publicly roast the team for morale reasons, but he sounds so out of touch sometimes. I swear the other week on WM I heard him say "We don't concentrate on results, we concentrate on performances"... that's all well and good Smith, now could you please produce either one of those things, ideally both? :roll:

We've been donald awful lately, and I really think the cracks that were papered over early on in the season are showing big time. No focal point up front, hence no goals. It's great trying to play 'total football' but all I see at the moment is a team who has no idea how to break another side down, a team who fanny's about with the ball around the area, without the cutting edge. Walsall are fast becoming the most frustrating side to watch.

Even though I'm ever the blind optimist, I'm gonna say the play-off dream is over as of last night. It's a shame, I really thought we might make it. A win at Covhampton and I'd have said game on. Honestly wonder where the next win will come from, and more importantly how soon. :( We do have a habit of playing up to teams higher than us, so we'll see on Saturday what happens with wolves.

Also, people who claim we should just sit down and accept that mid-table is the highest we'll ever achieve because that's 'what we are' annoy me. People go on about ambition at the club, but I swear some fans don't have ambition either. If that's the attitude to take I don't know why we donalding bother competing, or attending games. Who gives a donald if we're the underdog. We've done it before.

[4143]

I swear the other week on WM I heard him say "We don't concentrate on results, we concentrate on performances"... that's all well and good Smith, now could you please produce either one of those things, ideally both? :roll:

The players have to actually go out there and do the business.

[bangsection]

Also, people who claim we should just sit down and accept that mid-table is the highest we'll ever achieve because that's 'what we are' annoy me.

This is fast becoming UTS's favourite straw man. Who are these people? Has anyone ever actually said this? There are people who argue that we're punching above our playing budget, others who point out that we've spent more seasons in the third tier than any other team and it's probably our "natural level". But where are these people who say we should accept a midtable finish as the most we can hope for? Because, as you say yourself, that way madness lies. We might as well all pack it in and start supporting Villa. And if I thought there was even a significant minority of Walsall fans who thought like that I'd be as quick to challenge that point of view as you are. But is there? As I say, I'm not sure I've ever read anyone articulate that specific point on here.

[leics_saddler]

Indeed, I don't think it's quite silly season just yet.
But certainly, we need to have a bit of tinker in March with the merciless run of fixtures.
If 6th becomes a distant fantasy, then we can certainly look at fringe players and other more radical plans then.

Part of the problem is our fringe players.

I know we aint gonna have a squad of 25 league one players but we just aren't good enough to win without say 2 of our first team if everyone isn't putting in at least 8/10 performances, especially against half decent teams.

Someone posted a stat with our poor our record when Featherstone starts. Now this isn't a dig at him, but he will only play when Chambers or Mantom are injured/suspended , so that's without only 1 first team regular.

I agree. We've got a lot of good players of a similar standard, but few great ones at this level.
Once any prospect of promotion this season goes, we need to get them all playing and assess for next season.
The nucleus of the team is still quite sound to me, but an assessment and overhaul is vital.
It's still a relatively young squad, so in theory they should improve if they are settled and together next year.

[pumajaguar]

Also, people who claim we should just sit down and accept that mid-table is the highest we'll ever achieve because that's 'what we are' annoy me.

This is fast becoming UTS's favourite straw man. Who are these people? Has anyone ever actually said this? There are people who argue that we're punching above our playing budget, others who point out that we've spent more seasons in the third tier than any other team and it's probably our "natural level". But where are these people who say we should accept a midtable finish as the most we can hope for? Because, as you say yourself, that way madness lies. We might as well all pack it in and start supporting Villa. And if I thought there was even a significant minority of Walsall fans who thought like that I'd be as quick to challenge that point of view as you are. But is there? As I say, I'm not sure I've ever read anyone articulate that specific point on here.

Don't know if anyone has every said it directly, but I've certainly got that impression from a few on here.

[moaning saddler]

Also, people who claim we should just sit down and accept that mid-table is the highest we'll ever achieve because that's 'what we are' annoy me.

This is fast becoming UTS's favourite straw man. Who are these people? Has anyone ever actually said this? There are people who argue that we're punching above our playing budget, others who point out that we've spent more seasons in the third tier than any other team and it's probably our "natural level". But where are these people who say we should accept a midtable finish as the most we can hope for? Because, as you say yourself, that way madness lies. We might as well all pack it in and start supporting Villa. And if I thought there was even a significant minority of Walsall fans who thought like that I'd be as quick to challenge that point of view as you are. But is there? As I say, I'm not sure I've ever read anyone articulate that specific point on here.

"We are safe and this is cause for celebration. I can't believe people are moaning about a mid-table finish".
Posted on the Crawley match thread when we were lying 7th.
Struck me as depressingly complacent anyway.

[saddlersjse]

Also, people who claim we should just sit down and accept that mid-table is the highest we'll ever achieve because that's 'what we are' annoy me.

This is fast becoming UTS's favourite straw man. Who are these people? Has anyone ever actually said this? There are people who argue that we're punching above our playing budget, others who point out that we've spent more seasons in the third tier than any other team and it's probably our "natural level". But where are these people who say we should accept a midtable finish as the most we can hope for? Because, as you say yourself, that way madness lies. We might as well all pack it in and start supporting Villa. And if I thought there was even a significant minority of Walsall fans who thought like that I'd be as quick to challenge that point of view as you are. But is there? As I say, I'm not sure I've ever read anyone articulate that specific point on here.

"We are safe and this is cause for celebration. I can't believe people are moaning about a mid-table finish".
Posted on the Crawley match thread when we were lying 7th.
Struck me as depressingly complacent anyway.

It's stuff like that that I was referring to. I've heard also numerous post-match callers on WM, friends and family who are Saddlers, and comments on the Facebook page that say much the same thing, that mere survival in this league is some great achievement. You're right, we've spent most of our history at this level- it's been our natural place. If that's been the case, I struggle to see how survival can be "cause for celebration". It's par for the course, even if we had scappy survival seasons pre- 2012-13 season.
I obviously appreciate that we have a hilariously small budget compared to some teams in this league, and our gates don't help much either. It's just frustrating, at a time like the last couple of seasons where escape seemed genuinely on the cards to hear people talk of how this is hugely over-reaching and that we should look forward each season to surging up to 12th place. Look at Yeovil, non-league club for such a huge amount of their history, at least for the next few weeks a Championship club, with no massively huge investment. Yeah, they're punching above their weight at that level but it wasn't a conservative, "know your place" attitude that got them there, and that didn't get us promoted there in 99 and 01 either. Sometimes feel that, at least in the club itself, this attitude is hindering at a time of relative optimism.
I remember reading Bonser's program notes at the 125th anniversary Sheff Utd game last season, when he basically said "look at all the league clubs who are now in the Conference, aren't we so fortunate that isn't us! So be happy!" True point, but after so many years of being an established 3rd tier club, I just feel that we should want more.

[aaaae]

I remember reading Bonser's program notes at the 125th anniversary Sheff Utd game last season, when he basically said "look at all the league clubs who are now in the Conference, aren't we so fortunate that isn't us! So be happy!" True point, but after so many years of being an established 3rd tier club, I just feel that we should want more.

Interesting now that Luton are flying in the conference, it might not be too long until we are languishing below that infamous triumvirate of Bournemouth, Rotherham and Luton.

[kshammer]

There was realism alongside the ambition from Yeovil i'm sure. They didn't stumble on a magic formula for promotion last year, they largely did what they've been doing for year after year and suddenly it clicked. The fans didn't have a mass change in ambition, nor did the club really, they just got a set of players playing the right way and playing confidently - something we aint far off from but is still, hopefully, developing. I'm sure our players and coaches honestly believe they can do it (they never shut up about it after all) but sometimes you're just not quite there.

You also have to remember that alot of comments about being safe are tongue in cheek and just because people may not think that mid table is a bad season, it doesn't mean they aren't ambitious. The fans that attend aren't a problem regarding ambition and nor is the current squad or staff, I do think though that there needs to be a bit more ambition from board level - they are definately happy with mid table. They also deserve far more watching them but that will never happen.

I'd love Walsall to get to the play offs, I also believe we can, but if we don't and finish say 9th, i'll not look back on the season as a failure and will continue to see any positives that are there.

[bangsection]

It's a really interesting debate and I agree with a lot of what people have said. It's all about context for me. If we'd pottered about midtable all season I think there'd be far less angst finishing 12th than there might be if we end up there after the campaign we've had. It's the hope that kills you.

I also think there's something in what kshammer says about comments about "avoiding relegation" being tongue in cheek. Although second-guessing what people really mean online is always difficult.

[tinned]

I do think though that there needs to be a bit more ambition from board level - they are definately happy with mid table. They also deserve far more watching them but that will never happen.

And there is the eternal vicious circle......

[derbysaddler]

I remember reading Bonser's program notes at the 125th anniversary Sheff Utd game last season, when he basically said "look at all the league clubs who are now in the Conference, aren't we so fortunate that isn't us! So be happy!" True point, but after so many years of being an established 3rd tier club, I just feel that we should want more.

Interesting now that Luton are flying in the conference, it might not be too long until we are languishing below that infamous triumvirate of Bournemouth, Rotherham and Luton.

its been banded around in the past that clubs of ours and those you mentioned would always struggle to achieve significant financial investment, funnily enough two have.

Perhaps Jeff don't reply to phone calls or emails

[We-ARE-Walsall]

Also, people who claim we should just sit down and accept that mid-table is the highest we'll ever achieve because that's 'what we are' annoy me.

This is fast becoming UTS's favourite straw man. Who are these people? Has anyone ever actually said this? There are people who argue that we're punching above our playing budget, others who point out that we've spent more seasons in the third tier than any other team and it's probably our "natural level". But where are these people who say we should accept a midtable finish as the most we can hope for? Because, as you say yourself, that way madness lies. We might as well all pack it in and start supporting Villa. And if I thought there was even a significant minority of Walsall fans who thought like that I'd be as quick to challenge that point of view as you are. But is there? As I say, I'm not sure I've ever read anyone articulate that specific point on here.

"We are safe and this is cause for celebration. I can't believe people are moaning about a mid-table finish".
Posted on the Crawley match thread when we were lying 7th.
Struck me as depressingly complacent anyway.

Absolutely ridiculous comment, you should never just accept anything in this life, always strive to be better.

[Registered Saddler]

Absolutely ridiculous comment, you should never just accept anything in this life, always strive to be better.

Celebrating achievement and aiming for improvement aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, you might say that one leads to the other.

Anyway - a different tack. Coventry City released their accounts for last season today. They made a loss for the year of £7m and are in debt to the tune of £45m+. Staff costs were more than 100% of turnover. That's not saying that player costs broke the wage cap, but if they didn't it really makes for some expensive admin staff. We all remember that David McGoldrick (rumoured £10k a week) put us to the sword at the Ricoh; those points could have really helped us in the play-off push.

So how about this year? Well they have lost about 80% of their crowds plus other hospitality revenue and so forth. Not that many contracts will have come off the wage bill, apart from Leon Clarke and Gary McSheffrey. So are they still paying more than 100% of turnover on staff costs? It seems likely. In which case, can anyone explain how they have managed to bring in loan players from Celtic, Aston Villa, QPR and Arsenal? Sure they have a number of young players, but do those figures really add up? The winning goal scorer, for example, was out of our price range.

Could it be anything to do with their chief executive claiming that figures used to calculate the salary cap were based on last season, when Coventry were still at the Ricoh? This, of course, is quite against League rules.

I've been very disappointed with our results these last few weeks; I think we could be doing even better and I'm gutted that we've failed again to take a presentable chance at the play-offs. But please no one play down the impact of the Football League's impotence and downright irregularity when it comes to creating a level playing field. Cheats don't prosper, but they sure do make it hard for those who play by the rules to succeed.

[aaaae]

Considering their financial situation and low crowds I expected to be well and truly fleeced on Wednesday night. I wouldn't have been surprised if I'd been asked to hand over £30. I was pleasantly surprised that it was only £16 to get in.

[aaaae]

Highlights...

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/competitions/league-one/9199675/coventry-2-1-walsall