Notts County (H) League One - 17 Aug 2013

[IHTC.]

Benning has been poor for the last 3 games? So he's had one good game this season? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Leatherman]

sometimes you have to give credit where it's due, county played well today, stifling us and passing the ball really well. their right back was the best player on the pitch. despite this, we got a point, and but for a lack of composed finishing we'd've been outta sight with 1 hour on the clock. particularly enjoyed butler smashing their huge forward to bits.

When Shoumi called 'No joy' against Butler they had to change it.

They looked much better after Bell and Arquin came on and their Right-back looked good all game too.

[Bitter Tree Hugger]

Pffffft I ask you to do one simple thing and you £&@& it up. :roll:

Must do better next time chaps

[Leatherman]

Poor(ish) first half - much better when we were more positive and raised tempo.

Controversial statement : Andy Butler is severely hampering how we play.

Can't wait for Andy Taylor to come back as Benning had a shocker.

Not the end of the world but a lot to improve upon.

Andy Butler's job is a Centre-Half; how can he hinder/hamper the way we are trying to play?

Benning had a good game relative to everybody else. He's still learning by the way.

I would prefer Purkiss to J Chambers too.

A lot of the passes today seemed under weight and didn't carry, whether the grass was too long I don't know. Mantom couldn't work it out in any case.

Westcarr's first touch was pretty abysmal and I can't see how he is a goal machine as described elsewhere.

Overall a mid-table performance. If we do harbour any aspirations of promotion we will need to be a bit more creative and positive in the way we go about things.

Still a long way to go yet.

In this system, going back to the centre half (and starting play from the goalkeeper) is massively influenced by the speed in which the ball is transferred between the centre halves. The goalkeeper and back 4 set the tempo of the game - which was a massive problem in the first half. If I was Smith, I would ban Butler from channel hoofing and fine him if he did. It is terrible.

It's a tad naive to think his job is just to head the ball away and hoof it.

I counted loads and loads of times he have the ball away with long aimless hoofs upfield. Watch the difference with Downing (who wasn't at his best today) who gets the ball quickly into the midfield (and accurately).

It's massively important how the defenders play in our style - I am not try to have a go at you or anything, but in the modern game, the teams who can keep the ball and distribute quickly are the ones who do better than most.

I know what you mean about Butler but his strength lies in his 'stopping' ability. It's a trade off really and it's all very well having someone who can move the ball quickly but never wins a header in the box. He is also a good captain.

I thing Butler's distribution has improved this season whereas Downing's has suffered.

If you look at how Smith has laid out the team he has a block of 4 defenders down the middle (I include Mantom and Chambers as defensive midfielders) and the inventive side comes from four creative players in midfield (and I include Benning and Chambers as attacking Full-backs in that) down the wings.

He then has two players expected to put the ball in the net one playing just behind the other.

All the players are wanting in some respect in the position they are expected to play in so adapting their strengths to how he sets up has to be uppermost in his mind.

Butler's strengths are old fashion Centre-half type and I think we would be a poorer side without him.

[We-ARE-Walsall]

This is probably one of the most sensible posts I am ever likely to make, especially after a skinful the night before, but anyway here goes with some topics of conversation from yesterdays performance.

Firstly, the discussion that was had about Manny Smith on another thread the other day, when it was said how poor his passing was, I think yesterday showed it is far better than Butlers, I didn't count how many times each found their own team mate, but Smith had a far better ratio, still looks a tidy defender to me too. Not going to criticise Butler though, he still leads by example and is a solid division 3 center back.

I think yesterday showed how tough this season is going to be, we are a useful side, make no mistake about that, but County looked good at what they did too, they had a plan, and but for a bit of luck they would have won the game yesterday. Looked nothing wrong with the disallowed goal to me, but it was up the other end so I don't really know for sure. Having said that, we could have put this game to bed in a spell in the second half and probably should have. There are some good sides in this division this time around, but all the same I don't think any of them will have an easy game against us.

There are problems with the balance of our team. I'm not tactical genius, and I trust Smith knows more about football than me, but it seems we have to put some square pegs in round holes to get all our better players in the team. Baxendale has scored a couple of cracking goals in the first few games, and done reasonably well, but I don't think he can play on the wing long term, he looks lost at times. He can't really beat a man on the outside at all, I'm just not convinced. Sawyers and Westcarr although different players, really warrant playing the same roll. I thought they were both very good yesterday, but at the same time something isn't quite right.

I think Smith showed a bit of inexperience yesterday too, the substitutions worked brilliantly, not for us though, worked a treat for Nott's County. Sticking Sawyers out on the wing was a crime, as he had been a constant menace though the middle, and the whole shape of the team became even worse than before.

Overall happy with that draw, because we could so easily have lost it, but these kind of games you can turn in to wins, and we could easily have done that too.

[ToeJoe Jnr]

A winger in my eyes has one function, beat a man get to the bye line and cross it.

Our style of play doesn't facilitate this and we don't have a Rambo type centre forward to get onto it. Therefore I don't believe that Baxendale or Hemmings are being deployed as wingers. They are there as part of a 3 behind Westcarr/Lalkovic to pick up on the little knock throughout and lay offs.

We are showing a patient style of play, short passing in triangles to create space. We are not Barcelona, we won't get it right all the time, but like any plan you have to stick at it to get better and we will benefit in the long term (as we have already seen progress in the short term)

As fans we have to show the same level of patience when those passes go astray etc. People round me couldn't start to wait to moan after 10 mins yesterday with cries of get it forward quickly. If you want that then give it to a centre back all the time he can hoof it and hey presto ball in opposition half in a matter of seconds. However don't then lambast the team for kicking it long and not playing football.

Yesterday was disappointing to drop 2 points at home when leading, however the disappointments will be outweighed by the successes this season, starting with Brentford who we owe a spanking too! :D

[Registered Saddler]

Some stats, for what it's worth.

We're now unbeaten in 16 home league games stretching back to November last year (0-2 v Swindon). I think that's the longest unbeaten home run since 2000. Dunno what the biggest was before then. In the light of that, I'm a bit disappointed that the attendance was lower than the Notts County home game last season, but there we are.

Not losing is a good habit, but we're finding it almost as difficult to win. That's four times in the last seven we've gone in front, only to concede an equaliser in the last quarter of the match.

[wfc & chips]

When Shoumi called 'No joy' against Butler they had to change it.

made me think of

no mas

[WFC_Rob]

I think we came up against a pretty decent side yesterday, who had done their homework on us and the way we play. In the end, just as we could count ourselves lucky to pick up 3 points at Oldham (by all accounts), we could probably count ourselves lucky not to lose yesterday. Still, that's progress on 12 months ago, isn't it?

The first half was one of the most even and open games I've seen for a long time. I'm not sure whether the grass hadn't been cut properly, but every pass Downing and Mantom played seemed a yard or two short. Couple that with the fact that County were really mobile, and it caused us a lot of problems. Saying that, I agree with the previous comment that Sawyers and Westcarr had the better of their centre halves. When we kept the ball on the floor, Leacock & Smith looked all over the shop at times, and we should have made them pay. They'll be saying the same though, having seen O'Donnell make two really good saves.

We were a different side in the second half as Smith had obviously told the players they needed to be sharper, quicker, and a bit braver in County's half. After seeming reluctant to shoot when in a couple of decent positions in the first half, Sawyers finally had the balls to shoot and what a finish it was. Hopefully he'll try that more often from now on.

Our goal seemed to give them the motivation to take a few more risks and Dumbuya caused Hemmings and Benning all sorts of problems for the rest of the game. Benning looks great going forward and is generally composed on the ball, but he gets beaten far too easily when he's defending. Don't get me wrong, I know he's only a kid and I know County are a half decent side, but I'd be inclined to put Taylor back in when he's fit. Hemmings offers no defensive cover either, so it's important we have a left back who knows their primary job is to defend.

For the last 15 minutes, I wondered whether Colin Lee had replaced Smith in the dugout. We dropped ridiculously deep, shifted our best player out wide, and brought on a striker who couldn't hold the ball up. The equaliser was inevitable, and they were unlucky not to have scored a (legitimate) winner.

Hopefully that was a bit of a reality check. If nothing else, I think we might have found a real gem in Sawyers, and we didn't lose, which we probably would have done a year or so ago. We probably need to have a bit more conviction going forward if we're to turn draws like that into wins though.

[swiftbob]

There were 3813 home fans yesterday (if the away fans figure quoted on notts forum is correct), ironically we had 3812 home fans against Tranmere!

[BathSaddler]

I'm grateful for the point, particularly over the last 15 minutes, when County battered us - having a 'goal' disallowed, one cleared off the line, and cutting us open at will down both flanks. However, there is no doubt that we did enough in that opening 20 minutes of the second half to win it, and Sawyers finish was sublime. I thought Adam Chambers battled hard in midfield, but Mantom was simply off-the-pace and kept giving the ball away [although he was not on his own, most of the team did that for the majority of the first half]. O'Donnell looks a pretty good shot stopper, but needs to command his area better. Sawyers was our class act on the day, and stroked in his goal with aplomb. The rest were pretty average, although I thought both full backs struggled against pace all afternoon. We also tended to be over elaborate at times, and far too often went for the 'fancy dan' flick which invariably failed to come off. We need to play the simple ball more often, keep possession when we can and improve our movement off the ball, because for large sections of the match it was not good enough.

I still think we need another striker, and although it is difficult to judge ability on a 15 minute substitute appearance when your side is 'under the cosh', I'm not sure about Hewitt. He could not hold the ball up at all, and had one of the worst attempts on goal I've ever seen. He never stopped running and tried hard, so the effort was there, but that was about it. I wish him well, but have my doubts as to how effective he will be.

I thought Notts County were a decent side, and even Manny Smith played reasonably well. I'd still rather have Downing and Butler though, even if the former was a little under par.

By the way, where was Lalkovic yesterday?

[Neuromantic]

Lalkovic had a Hamstring strain - out for a few days.

[BathSaddler]

Lalkovic had a Hamstring strain - out for a few days.

Cheers Neuromantic. Let's hope he is back in the squad for next week, as the limited forward options were obvious yesterday.

[BathSaddler]

There were 3813 home fans yesterday (if the away fans figure quoted on notts forum is correct), ironically we had 3812 home fans against Tranmere!

It's on the up :)

[JonnyOwen]

County fans are annoyed at the refereeing decisions, and they have a case in my opinion.

[PT]

There may also be freeze frames of Hewitt having his shirt held for about 10 seconds in the box and right in front of the ref and the 4 or 5 bookable fouls the number 6 made on Westcarr (he got booked for one) and the clothes line the already booked number 16 did on Benning.

[WFC_Rob]

All of the ball over all of the line though? You can't tell from that photo.

As for the offside, it looked harsh yesterday and it looks harsh from the photo above. But let's not forget the offside decision which would have seen Westcarr clean through on goal. He ran past Manny Smith to get onto the end of the pass, so for the linesman to flag was ridiculous.

[We-ARE-Walsall]

Looks like there are two players offside to me.

Anyway, as said, they had the rub of the green with the ref on more than enough occasions. If the ref had set the tone early on it would have stamped out their bullying tactics. Took way to long to get his cards out for ridiculous challenges from behind.

[Sadders]

gotta disagree with this butler criticism, it's the grit displayed by him and chambers that provides the requisite protection, affording our other players the freedom to play that style. players complement each other to make a team, barça don't play mascherano for his vision and delicate touch. despite so many being in denial, the long ball has proven a valuable asset in recent times, but we know how good manny is in the air, plus without milan we lack the searing pace for the ball over the top. butler lacked options, but that was a feature all over the pitch today.

criticism of the full backs is harsh, too. both received insufficient support, leaving each against 2 men regularly.

i didn't understand the substitutions.

although my comment about composure wasn't aimed squarely at westcarr, he was the principal culprit, and i reject a bit of rough and tumble as an excuse. this is lower league football.

I don't think there is Butler criticism - it's just 1 person that mentioned his hoofing not helping our style out. That is a fair point, but he's still a top 6 centre back in League One, our best defender, our captain and the first name on our team sheet and rightfully will be barring an epic loss of form until the day he departs in a couple of years time. He's only been here 3 years and has probably missed 5 games in that time through injury or suspension, he is a guaranteed 8 out of 10 every game of the season and is without a doubt our most important influence on the pitch.

Even Barca don't have 10 'Messi' style attacking footballers. Anyone that wants to drop or get rid of Butler to help our 'style' has truly, truly lost the plot.

On another note, I thought we missed a long ball option for the pace of Lalkovic to run on to and win a 50-50 high up the pitch especially as County pinned us in late on, even if that is the polar opposite to our style, we can't pass our way out of any situatuion. I agree regarding Sawyers and the substitution of Featherstone, it stunk of Deano shutting shop and taking a point which in fairness was probably the correct decision but it did nullify us as an attacking threat which was frustrating. Still not convinced on Hewitt and judging by the reports from my mates at Dagenham/Bury he doesn't have a great deal in the locker, but let's give him a chance.

Will McQuilken be this years Connor Taylor?

[WFC_Rob]

Will McQuilken be this years Connor Taylor?

I think he'll be this year's Anton Peterlin. We signed him to make up the numbers because he's cheap. He certainly didn't look an improvement on anyone else we already had when he played in pre-season. Neat and tidy, with plenty of effort, but nothing more.

[Registered Saddler]

Top pic shows the ball not over the line.

Bottom pic shows two County players in the centre of the shot inside the area while our players are on the edge - and the kick's not even been taken yet.

If that is the only evidence, the ref got the decisions spot on.

[wfc & chips]

gotta disagree with this butler criticism, it's the grit displayed by him and chambers that provides the requisite protection, affording our other players the freedom to play that style. players complement each other to make a team, barça don't play mascherano for his vision and delicate touch. despite so many being in denial, the long ball has proven a valuable asset in recent times, but we know how good manny is in the air, plus without milan we lack the searing pace for the ball over the top. butler lacked options, but that was a feature all over the pitch today.

criticism of the full backs is harsh, too. both received insufficient support, leaving each against 2 men regularly.

i didn't understand the substitutions.

although my comment about composure wasn't aimed squarely at westcarr, he was the principal culprit, and i reject a bit of rough and tumble as an excuse. this is lower league football.

I don't think there is Butler criticism - it's just 1 person that mentioned his hoofing not helping our style out. That is a fair point, but he's still a top 6 centre back in League One, our best defender, our captain and the first name on our team sheet and rightfully will be barring an epic loss of form until the day he departs in a couple of years time. He's only been here 3 years and has probably missed 5 games in that time through injury or suspension, he is a guaranteed 8 out of 10 every game of the season and is without a doubt our most important influence on the pitch.

Even Barca don't have 10 'Messi' style attacking footballers. Anyone that wants to drop or get rid of Butler to help our 'style' has truly, truly lost the plot.

On another note, I thought we missed a long ball option for the pace of Lalkovic to run on to and win a 50-50 high up the pitch especially as County pinned us in late on, even if that is the polar opposite to our style, we can't pass our way out of any situatuion. I agree regarding Sawyers and the substitution of Featherstone, it stunk of Deano shutting shop and taking a point which in fairness was probably the correct decision but it did nullify us as an attacking threat which was frustrating. Still not convinced on Hewitt and judging by the reports from my mates at Dagenham/Bury he doesn't have a great deal in the locker, but let's give him a chance.

Will McQuilken be this years Connor Taylor?

how is stating butler hampers our style not criticism? how are 2 posters 1?

glad you agree regards barça, milan and subs, although i'd say it wasn't the right thing to do, we lost any shape and were more vulnerable to county attacks.

[Sadders]

My point was that criticism seems like a 'plural' or all round consensus in it's tone. It was 1 or 2 posters mentioning that Butler's lack of footballing ability occasionally hampers the overall style of the team, which it can do at certain points but his defending and overall position in the team far out weighs that of a few hoofs here and now.

[We-ARE-Walsall]

My point was that criticism seems like a 'plural' or all round consensus in it's tone. It was 1 or 2 posters mentioning that Butler's lack of footballing ability occasionally hampers the overall style of the team, which it can do at certain points but his defending and overall position in the team far out weighs that of a few hoofs here and now.

He was especially bad with his passing on Saturday, worse than usual. To be honest there is no real need for it.

I understand if he is under pressure and has to clear that's fair enough, but when there is no pressure and the ball is at his feet, there are always options, Chambers or Mantom usually come deep to collect, then there are two full backs close by. The manager needs to just have a word. I have a two year old son that can pass the ball ten yards to me, so surely a grown man who plays football for a living can adapt to something so simple.

[Neuromantic]

My point was that criticism seems like a 'plural' or all round consensus in it's tone. It was 1 or 2 posters mentioning that Butler's lack of footballing ability occasionally hampers the overall style of the team, which it can do at certain points but his defending and overall position in the team far out weighs that of a few hoofs here and now.

He was especially bad with his passing on Saturday, worse than usual. To be honest there is no real need for it.

I understand if he is under pressure and has to clear that's fair enough, but when there is no pressure and the ball is at his feet, there are always options, Chambers or Mantom usually come deep to collect, then there are two full backs close by. The manager needs to just have a word. I have a two year old son that can pass the ball ten yards to me, so surely a grown man who plays football for a living can adapt to something so simple.

^^^ This.

[Tyldesley_saddler]

My point was that criticism seems like a 'plural' or all round consensus in it's tone. It was 1 or 2 posters mentioning that Butler's lack of footballing ability occasionally hampers the overall style of the team, which it can do at certain points but his defending and overall position in the team far out weighs that of a few hoofs here and now.

He was especially bad with his passing on Saturday, worse than usual. To be honest there is no real need for it.

I understand if he is under pressure and has to clear that's fair enough, but when there is no pressure and the ball is at his feet, there are always options, Chambers or Mantom usually come deep to collect, then there are two full backs close by. The manager needs to just have a word. I have a two year old son that can pass the ball ten yards to me, so surely a grown man who plays football for a living can adapt to something so simple.

^^^ This.

You say this, and i agree, but you are as bad as philthesaddler, anything to have a go !
If you dont agree,. go and watch the fudge dingles.

[wfc & chips]

My point was that criticism seems like a 'plural' or all round consensus in it's tone. It was 1 or 2 posters mentioning that Butler's lack of footballing ability occasionally hampers the overall style of the team, which it can do at certain points but his defending and overall position in the team far out weighs that of a few hoofs here and now.

i responded to those criticizing him as opposed to those supporting. that is straightforward. they didn't write that it was occasional. as i posted previously, there was a lack of options all over the pitch, better he lump it forward when not presented with an easy ball, than tamely surrender possession as happened repeatedly upfield. we purportedly have a team of intelligent players, i'd've thought giving butler an easy pass was pretty obvious.

[We-ARE-Walsall]

My point was that criticism seems like a 'plural' or all round consensus in it's tone. It was 1 or 2 posters mentioning that Butler's lack of footballing ability occasionally hampers the overall style of the team, which it can do at certain points but his defending and overall position in the team far out weighs that of a few hoofs here and now.

He was especially bad with his passing on Saturday, worse than usual. To be honest there is no real need for it.

I understand if he is under pressure and has to clear that's fair enough, but when there is no pressure and the ball is at his feet, there are always options, Chambers or Mantom usually come deep to collect, then there are two full backs close by. The manager needs to just have a word. I have a two year old son that can pass the ball ten yards to me, so surely a grown man who plays football for a living can adapt to something so simple.

^^^ This.

You say this, and i agree, but you are as bad as philthesaddler, anything to have a go !
If you dont agree,. go and watch the donald dingles.

:D Possibly , but he's not as fudge ugly ! :lol:

Seriously, I'd cross the road to say hello to Neuromantic, I have and would again hide to avoid philthesaddler, as have many others I know :lol:

[Neuromantic]

My point was that criticism seems like a 'plural' or all round consensus in it's tone. It was 1 or 2 posters mentioning that Butler's lack of footballing ability occasionally hampers the overall style of the team, which it can do at certain points but his defending and overall position in the team far out weighs that of a few hoofs here and now.

He was especially bad with his passing on Saturday, worse than usual. To be honest there is no real need for it.

I understand if he is under pressure and has to clear that's fair enough, but when there is no pressure and the ball is at his feet, there are always options, Chambers or Mantom usually come deep to collect, then there are two full backs close by. The manager needs to just have a word. I have a two year old son that can pass the ball ten yards to me, so surely a grown man who plays football for a living can adapt to something so simple.

^^^ This.

You say this, and i agree, but you are as bad as philthesaddler, anything to have a go !
If you dont agree,. go and watch the donald dingles.

:D Possibly , but he's not as donald ugly ! :lol:

Seriously, I'd cross the road to say hello to Neuromantic, I have and would again hide to avoid philthesaddler, as have many others I know :lol:

Apparently I can't point out flaws now... :lol: May I point out I never said he should be dropped - just, as WAW suggested, that someone needs to have a word about losing the ball with the aimless punts downfield.

[wfc & chips]

of course you're allowed to point out flaws, neurotic, and it would be churlish to claim butler's passing is exemplory. equally, others can dispute the controversial (your word) leap that he hampers our style. and it's best i don't respond to the suggestion that our inspirational captain be fined for taking the safety 1st option when not provided with a simple 1!