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Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Reports and reaction from the 2010-11 season as Walsall finished 20th in League 1
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philthesaddler
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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:14 pm

cumbria-saddler wrote:Richards was playing wide left, so would you expect a winger to complete as many passes as a central midfielder (eg. Murphy)? i wouldnt, being in CM you would probably expect to see the ball a lot more than someone who is playing on the wing. The same goes for the tackling stats, you'd expect a CM to do more tackles than a winger and Richards was playing on the wing in this game.

Phil, youve said that our most succesful spell this season has been when Marshall and Taundry have been in the middle together. Do you propose that Richards should start on the left everyweek, as he's played there the last two games which we have won?


To answer both your questions, No, you wouldnt expect a winger to neccessarily be involved as much as a centre midfielder, but to lose the ball a quarter of every time he saw it is still poor, which ever way you look at it - not to mention the fact he nearly cost us a second goal as morethanuknow pointed out above.

And no, I dont propose we keep him on the left - as proven above, he's a liability no matter where he plays on the pitch - he doesnt tackle, he doesnt track his man, he's slow and weak, but he can take the odd free kick - and like I said on sat, that is not enough to warrant a place in a team, especially a struggling team! You need 11 battlers, not 10 battlers and a passenger who might bag you a free kick.

Hopefully, with the return to fitness of Devaney and Jones, we might see one of them on the left, or Gray (who incidently rarely wastes a pass, and has made several crucial defensive interceptions while playing on the left.)

The fact that our central midfield has looked more solid now with Taundry and Marshall together is an indictment of Richards, not proof that he needs a better player alongside him like some would have you believe :shock:

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:21 pm

Fray Bentos is God! wrote:
philthesaddler wrote:You can tell none of you lot have ever played much competitive football!


Any chance you can send me a copy of you in a Panini sticker album then? Just to confirm, like.

From pitiful to embarrassing.

You didn't see Marshall stop following Grella into the box then?

Bless you, you little monkey xxx


Sorry, Phil, but he's spot on - clear as day on the tv pictures.

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:22 pm

i wouldnt change gray for richards i feel gray as given us nothing and hes last outing for us the birmingham mail gave him a rating of 1 and for me that sums up grays attitude for us all season and we cant afford to carry anybody

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:32 pm

WHAT TV PICTURES ARE YOU WATCHING ive just watched it on saddlers player 5 times and matt richards alowed hes man to run he stood in no mans land doing nothing and by the time marshall tried to get across the damage was done im sorry if you cant see that all i can say is i wouldnt like you to give evidence against me because you are totaly fabricating what your saying
i would suggest you watch on saddlers player and you will realise it was totaly richards fault for ball watching .so id like to say neil you are 100% wrong
and please do me a favour watch it on saddlers player and then give us your verdict all you have to do is follow the guy on the right wing for them and watch richards he does nothing but watches lescott battling away while richards man as overlapping behind the 2 of them
Last edited by morethanuknow on Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

philthesaddler
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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:33 pm

Neil Ravenscroft wrote:
Fray Bentos is God! wrote:
philthesaddler wrote:You can tell none of you lot have ever played much competitive football!


Any chance you can send me a copy of you in a Panini sticker album then? Just to confirm, like.

From pitiful to embarrassing.

You didn't see Marshall stop following Grella into the box then?

Bless you, you little monkey xxx


Sorry, Phil, but he's spot on - clear as day on the tv pictures.


And who created the original problem? Superstar, 9 out of 10, Matt Richards? Thats where the problem started, to then pick up on all the errors after that is facetious. Maybe Marshall wasn't marking him? Maybe Marshall saw Richards cock up and thought "here we go again". You gonna blame Jimmy Walker for not saving the second shot then?? No, because it's not his fault, the fault lies with ther person who created the problem. But that would go against his MOM award wouldnt it.

As far as Im concerned, I came on here at half time and pointed out that Richards was at fault for the goal, and your only defence of it is to pick holes in another players part in it? Pathetic.

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:35 pm

Whilst several posters have made much of the upturn in our fortunes with Marshall/Taundry in central midfield, the point could equally be made that (with the exception of a very good Bournemouth team), the inclusion of Jimmy Walker may have made a bit of a difference. Perhaps the argument goes that Alex Nicholls' resurgence into the team has made all the difference (so get rid of that Devaney lad), or Smith being binned to be replaced with a proper footballing centre half, or...or...

The point is a simple one: football matches are a series of thousands of individual events that are played out together over 90 minutes. Some matches feature clearly 'defining moments' that all can see change a game (for example, Steven Gerrard's introduction in the Europa League fixture the other week, where he goes on to score a hat-trick and Liverpool win 3-1, having been a goal down). Other events and decisions are part of a much more finely woven tapestry, where the strands are hard to unpick to appreciate which individual threads create the substance of the picture.

Personally on Saturday, I thought Butler (my MoM) and Westlake were superb, and Lancashire and Lescott much improved. With Walker behind them, this I felt made a noticeable difference to our solidity (more so than what went on in front of the back four). I thought all four of our midfielders did OK, with none of them being spectacular. I think it is churlish to suggest that a player who is asked to do a job on the left wing because of our squad of crocks and sulks, who chips in with two great goals and a series of decent balls through, should be accused of contributing little and described as a 'liability'. Richards made an error in the build-up to their goal, no question about it. But others played their part in that too, as described above.

I also agree with cumbria-saddler in that if you play someone at left wing who clearly hasn't the pace to take men on themselves and whose chief attribute is a passing game, you inhibit their effectiveness by halving the options they have, compared to the centre.

If I had the inclination, and an agenda, I may mention Taundry's two "air shots" in our penalty box which were quite abysmal, or the fact that he still hasn't scored a goal this season, or the fact that he hasn't actually got an assist (except perhaps that penalty he conceded at Fleetwood), but that would perhaps be nit-picking when he did OK on Saturday, as did Marshall who also had flawed aspects to his performance. It's part and parcel of being a League One footballer - if they were better, they wouldn't be with us.

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:36 pm

morethanuknow wrote:WHAT TV PICTURES ARE YOU WATCHING ive just watched it on saddlers player 5 times and matt richards alowed hes man to run he stood in no mans land doing nothing and by the time marshall tried to get across the damage was done im sorry if you cant see that all i can say is i wouldnt like you to give evidence against me because you are totaly fabricating what your saying
i would suggest you watch on saddlers player and you will realise it was totaly richards fault for ball watching


Exactly.

It's like Ive been saying since half time, people refuse to see the obvious and I can only summise that people do not understand football. Richards clearly lets his man just run past him while JOGGING - theres your problem.

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:42 pm

what id like to say is i had to watch it numerous times to see it was 100% richards fault
all i can say is for phil to call this at half time he must have eyes like an outhouse rat

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:45 pm

KC I agree with much of that, especially about the defence.

But in fairness, the problem with Richards has never been his passing ability - he can pick out a good pass, the problem as I have been at pains to point out time and time again is his lack of competitiveness, strength, pace, heading and tackling ability. If playing in midfield was solely a matter of being able to pick out a pass, then anyone could be a central midfielder - BUT it's not, especially so in this divison, where being able to "mix it" in the middle of the park is more often than not the defining factor in the game, and having Richards in one of those central slots severely reduces our ability to "mix it" because he's so weak in the challenge (both on the floor and in the air) as conviently proved by Cully (Thanks CullyStat :wink: ).

It's no conincidence that our performances have improved since we paired two players who get stuck in, but might not be able to pass as well as Richards.

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:55 pm

Being totally honest, he was much improved in the second half but I completely forgot Marshall was even playing until about 35 minutes in to the game.

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:04 pm

kc i dont agree with what your saying like i have said previously and i am not a richards hater but phil as valid point i watched the highlights plenty of times to be 100% sure of what i seen richards was 100% at fault for the first goal and he gifted them a golden chance to do us again.this isnt picking this fact and to be honset i havent gone into it that deep before but watching the highlights definatly shows a big flaw in hes game

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:05 pm

philthesaddler wrote:You can tell none of you lot have ever played much competitive football!

Richards was at fault for the first goal because he totally lost his man. Watch the fella casually run in to our box from our left (their right), while Richards jogs - yes - JOGS - after him - it's called "Ball watching" - ever heard that before? This fella then shoots, which Jimmy saves, and a scramble ensues, Richards goes in with a karate chop (not an attempted clearance, how the hell is he going to clear it by just waggling his leg at it?) while the rest of the defence stand pretty still - but if it wasn't for one player losing his marker, the chance wouldn't have arisen in the first place.

And some people on this board gave Richards credit for "being the first to react" ... well, so he bloody should be, it was his lack of marking that let Carlisle have such a bloody clear cut chance!

As for Cully's stats, thank you very much for proving me right, here is the break down:

Pass completion rate: 75% - (thats very poor, midfielders should be around the 85-90% mark, to lose the ball once every fourth time you get it qualifies you as a liability. Also, in your stats, I bet you've included the 3 "hoofs" forward than Reid chased down, so 75% is generous)

Tackles: 12, Tackles won 3 (although I only remember 1): so a Tackle win rate of 25% (again 25% is generous as I only remember 1, but quite awful)

Headers: 11 challenges in the air, 2 headers won: Heading win rate of 19% (Terrible)

Crosses (remember, he was playing as a wide-midfielder): 2, (one went out for a goal kick, the other hit the first man) Cross Success rate 0%.

So his passing is poor, his tackling is even worse, he can't win the ball in the air for toffee, and he can't cross. But he scored 2 free kicks, so that makes him a great player. :shock:

And as for WFC_Rob asking for Richards to be moved back in the middle - are you mad? Our best run of the season has coincided with him being shipped out to the left, and you want him back in the middle?


i played for chasetown :mrgreen:

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:13 pm

philthesaddler wrote:KC I agree with much of that, especially about the defence.

But in fairness, the problem with Richards has never been his passing ability - he can pick out a good pass, the problem as I have been at pains to point out time and time again is his lack of competitiveness, strength, pace, heading and tackling ability. If playing in midfield was solely a matter of being able to pick out a pass, then anyone could be a central midfielder - BUT it's not, especially so in this divison, where being able to "mix it" in the middle of the park is more often than not the defining factor in the game, and having Richards in one of those central slots severely reduces our ability to "mix it" because he's so weak in the challenge (both on the floor and in the air) as conviently proved by Cully (Thanks CullyStat :wink: ).

It's no conincidence that our performances have improved since we paired two players who get stuck in, but might not be able to pass as well as Richards.


But I would argue that it's all about the pairing in the middle. Richards is slightly built and somewhat vertically challenged. He will never be able to destroy play, but has an intelligence to get others involved. It's what Graham Taylor used to refer to as a 'continuity player'. Richards spent the better half of last season in the centre of midfield, and we were a far more successful team then than now. This is in no small part due to his pairing alongside Dwayne Mattis. Not the prettiest or best footballer ever to grace the planet, or even The Banks's, but he had a presence, and on his day he could break up play very effectively. With Mattis to mop up, Richards could play a bit.

Unfortunately, and I know you class him as a mate, but Taundry cannot do this effectively. He is a nearly man: nearly getting the tackle in, nearly effective in the air, nearly scoring, and nearly sending in an effective throw or free kick. However, 'nearly' is what differentiates us all in varying degrees from Lionel Messi. I would say what we have now with Marshall and Taundry is TWO players to take up the role vacated by Dwayne Mattis (who unsurprisingly is proving a useful acquisition at centre half for Chesterfield). This IS making us better defensively, but it comes at a cost: neither Taundry nor Marshall can provide the passing we require to keep the play moving, so that means shoe-horning Richards in at left wing where his lack of pace and options make him less effective.

As others have said all through the season, it wasn't perhaps letting Mattis go that was the mistake (he wasn't that special), but the failure to replace him with a central midfielder who can break up play and provide an adequate shield for the back four, that was.

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:14 pm

brummie saddler wrote:I played for Chasetown :mrgreen:


Shame on you! :D :D

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:45 pm

kc i beleive marshall pinged the ball about nicely yesterday taundry and marshall closed them down well and stopped them playing and who,s to know that taundry and marshall are not told to sit deep protectct the back four first and formost we dont know what the tactics are and im sorry if this doesnt mean we have gerrard and lampard in the middle its getting walsall fc results which are what we need now. we can do without players
giving the ball away like richards did in the highlights so i dont see where your getting hes great passing ability from .at the moment we as a club have to take it one game at a time and im sorry if it upsets some fans but we cant keep shooting ourselves in the foot which richards did twice on the highlights but we do need hes free kicks no doubt but we cant rely on them either.if any other player in this team made them clangers he made yesterday then this lot would of crucified him

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:59 pm

morethanuknow wrote:if any other player in this team made them clangers he made yesterday then this lot would of crucified him

Not if they'd scored two goals they wouldn't. I'd be happy with him scoring four own goals every game if he scored five at the other end. Bottom line is that despite much industry and work from our forwards, neither had great chances or looked like scoring from what I remember. Goals have to come from somewhere, and that won't be from Nicholls, Gray, Taundry, Marshall or any of the other midfield candidates (with perhaps the exception of Devaney). The fact is that Richards has been the only goalscorer in our team for three of the last four games (with two on Saturday and the one away at Fleetwood, nobody scoring at Bournemouth and a Reid brace for Fleetwood at home), and his goals have given us a desperately needed home win in the league and kept us in the FA Cup (who knows how precious that goal away at Fleetwood may prove to be if we draw a huge team if we beat Torquay?).

As I say, he's flawed, but the discussion has never been whether he's Xavi, but whether he's (a) useless/'a liability' and (b) better than other options. I haven't seen anything to change my opinion that he's much better than useless and better than any other option we have.

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:12 pm

well maybe your memory isnt very good because macken missed a sitter grigg missed a sitter and butler missed a sitter and thats 3 i can think of no doubt there will be more and im sorry to upset you but i dont think in the centre he is better than what weve got.i would like to see your opinion if he hadnt scored 2 free kicks and hes 2 major errors cost us
would you still talk like hes maradonna or would you hide.the fact that you have said you cant remember anything else other than richards freekicks is a poor argument because you too are flawed as wel

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:28 pm

morethanuknow wrote:well maybe your memory isnt very good because macken missed a sitter grigg missed a sitter and butler missed a sitter and thats 3 i can think of no doubt there will be more and im sorry to upset you but i dont think in the centre he is better than what weve got.i would like to see your opinion if he hadnt scored 2 free kicks and hes 2 major errors cost us
would you still talk like hes maradonna or would you hide.the fact that you have said you cant remember anything else other than richards freekicks is a poor argument because you too are flawed as wel


That's just babble.

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:30 pm

Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:32 pm

sam dont just comment try and justify your comment so what your saying by your comment is we had no chances other than richards freekicks
butler grigg macken should of scored yes or no .this may seem like babble to you and maybe you havent got a clue what im saying or havent got a clue about football but i write
what i beleive to be true i do want richards in the team but not in the middle hes better than gray and hes freekicks yesterday was superb but can i ask you this he as taken them all season and how many freekicks as he scored he as played every minute of every game which puts him in pole position to play cm so why hasnt he played there in the last 2 games

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:43 pm

Flippin' 'eck!!

No, my "stupid comment" was aimed at yourself to be 100% honest rather than the game we saw 48 hours ago.

Anyway, I must confess that I don't remember the Butler sitter, the Macken chance eludes my memory too but I do remember the ball being played just behind Grigg by Dickinson, putting it just out of reach. Fault of no one really but in real time, right in front of me, it was played just behind the youngster as I remember it.

Regarding Richards in the centre too - Give him an out and out ball winner to play along side him and you'll see what he is good at. Sit someone like Richard 'Not Quite Good Enough If You're Being Really Honest To Yourself' Taundry then he's basically having to attempt to play for 2 people, that after we've established Richards is not the best ball winner or strongest player out there.

As KC said, the problem isn't that we released Mattis. It's that we didn't replace him and seem to think Taundry can do that job.

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:47 pm

well sam before you comment anymore watch the highlights on saddlers player and you will realise you are making a fool of yourself macken butler and grigg should of scored and put the game to bed and sam please drop the stupid comments. matty (not quite good enough realy if you knew what your talking about)richards is not a centre mid .please dont make one more comment until you have seen the saddlers player highlights and please dont talk about real time. Dvds are acceptable in a court of law today so please dont dismiss the highlights.richards shocking pass under no presure could of cost us thank god it didnt and im not even talking about there goal anymore and iam over the moon richards scored 2 freekicks
Last edited by morethanuknow on Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:00 pm

saddlersam wrote:Flippin' 'eck!!

No, my "stupid comment" was aimed at yourself to be 100% honest rather than the game we saw 48 hours ago.

Anyway, I must confess that I don't remember the Butler sitter, the Macken chance eludes my memory too but I do remember the ball being played just behind Grigg by Dickinson, putting it just out of reach. Fault of no one really but in real time, right in front of me, it was played just behind the youngster as I remember it.

Regarding Richards in the centre too - Give him an out and out ball winner to play along side him and you'll see what he is good at. Sit someone like Richard 'Not Quite Good Enough If You're Being Really Honest To Yourself' Taundry then he's basically having to attempt to play for 2 people, that after we've established Richards is not the best ball winner or strongest player out there.

As KC said, the problem isn't that we released Mattis. It's that we didn't replace him and seem to think Taundry can do that job.


You are 100% correct with regard to the Grigg "sitter" at the end Sam. I was on the wall to the left of the goal and it went behind him. Nobodys fault, it was a good ball but Grigg was just slightly ahead of the cross.

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:05 pm

have you watched the highlights on saddlers player it went through griggs legs he missed an out and out sitter
im not getting at grigg but someone said we created no other chances in this game what im saying is thats a load of bullocks or are you going to say we didnt
Last edited by morethanuknow on Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:05 pm

morethanuknow wrote:well sam before you comment anymore watch the highlights on saddlers player and you will realise you are making a fool of yourself macken butler and grigg should of scored and put the game to bed


I don't think it's me acting the goat.

I will rush along and watch it straight away!!

Oh I am a silly goose! xx

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:10 pm

please sam iam trying to be as honest as i can we should of scored at least 3 more goals and until it is watched on saddlers player then you cant give an honest opinion
this was about my initial reply to someone saying they cant remeber anything other than richards freekicks which like i have said is the biggest load of bullocks i have heared

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:11 pm

morethanuknow wrote:have you watched the highlights on saddlers player it went through griggs legs he missed an out and out sitter


Yes I have.

He was running forward and it went between his legs from the side, which is hardly his fault. Had the ball been played in front of him (which it wasn't) he may have scored. He was also under pressure from a defender who is not getting any credit for the work he did to prevent the goal.

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:13 pm

you have stated it went behind him first and know it went through his legs thanks for your honesty

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:17 pm

morethanuknow wrote:well maybe your memory isnt very good because macken missed a sitter grigg missed a sitter and butler missed a sitter and thats 3 i can think of no doubt there will be more and im sorry to upset you but i dont think in the centre he is better than what weve got.i would like to see your opinion if he hadnt scored 2 free kicks and hes 2 major errors cost us
would you still talk like hes maradonna or would you hide.the fact that you have said you cant remember anything else other than richards freekicks is a poor argument because you too are flawed as wel


1) Think you must have me mistaken for someone else. I rarely get upset on here at all.
2) The question of Grigg's "sitter" has already been answered.
3) Last time I looked Butler was neither a midfield option nor a striker. His inclusion in the team will be on the basis that he's a competent defender. Anything in addition will be a bonus a la the odd Manny Smith or Scott Dann goal.
4) I thought I made it quite clear that I don't regard Richards as anything other than "better than useless" and "better than other options". So the Maradonna comment is just claptrap that shows your inability to read is almost as bad as your inability to use capital letters.
5) I don't "hide". What I do is state my view, try to support it, and admit if I'm wrong. Some others should try it.

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Re: Carlisle United (H) League 1 Saturday 20/11/10.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:23 pm

King Crimson wrote:
morethanuknow wrote:well maybe your memory isnt very good because macken missed a sitter grigg missed a sitter and butler missed a sitter and thats 3 i can think of no doubt there will be more and im sorry to upset you but i dont think in the centre he is better than what weve got.i would like to see your opinion if he hadnt scored 2 free kicks and hes 2 major errors cost us
would you still talk like hes maradonna or would you hide.the fact that you have said you cant remember anything else other than richards freekicks is a poor argument because you too are flawed as wel


1) Think you must have me mistaken for someone else. I rarely get upset on here at all.
2) The question of Grigg's "sitter" has already been answered.
3) Last time I looked Butler was neither a midfield option nor a striker. His inclusion in the team will be on the basis that he's a competent defender. Anything in addition will be a bonus a la the odd Manny Smith or Scott Dann goal.
4) I thought I made it quite clear that I don't regard Richards as anything other than "better than useless" and "better than other options". So the Maradonna comment is just claptrap that shows your inability to read is almost as bad as your inability to use capital letters.
5) I don't "hide". What I do is state my view, try to support it, and admit if I'm wrong. Some others should try it.


I think a lot of people on the "Richards is responsible for the downfall of capitalism" train need to look at the bold bit.

If we could get anyone in who was better, I'd have them like a shot.

Taundry is nearly a footballer and Marshall can be the invisible man at times. Shite or so-so... You at least know Richards is playing.

Still haven't remarked on Marshall forgetting about following Grella into the box either.

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