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Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Reports and reaction from the 2009-10 season as Walsall finished 10th in League 1
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Duke
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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:21 pm

Magic Man Fan wrote:Yes, an ageing goalkeeper that is making the defence in front of him look very nervous.

Yesterday wasn't an ideal game for Gilmartin to step in but he'll never improve until he learns to deal with the downs of conceding a number of goals. In a perverse way he'll learn from that experience and should make him stronger for it.

It would be typical WFC short termism to continue to play Ince this season. He still makes some good saves and is a decent enough keeper at this level but we can't keep playing him. If we do we might as well get rid of Gilmartin now. We're not going up, and we're not going down this season so stick Gilmartin in and lets find out if, given a decent run in the team he's worth keeping for next season. I think he'll prove that given time.


totally agree
From what I've been told Ince will retire at the end of the season

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:35 pm

It was truely dreadful. For me now the sooner he goes the better. After they got the fifth some Walsall fans were singing bonser out and then 1 guy said no Hutchings out and i absolutely agreed with that, it's his fault we are getting these shocking performances and now it's up to Bonser to do the right thing and get rid of hm. Looking at the table you would think Hutchings has done a cracking job considering were we are but i would take 14th-15th place with a different manager actually trying to get a performance out of the players anyday. GET RID.

Gilmartin - There was not anything he could do about any of the goals.
Westlake - Shocking, caught out so often and had absolutely no clue what to do when on the ball
MacDonald - Do not know what was wrong with him, thats by far the worst perfomance he has ever done.
Vincent - Slow,Weak,Small I could go on.
Richards - Got torn apart by Puncheon all afternoon, great strike for the goal but ill never know how he gets picked.
Nicholls - Did not offer anything until Jones came on then he brightened up a little bit but was too late.
O'Keefe - WHO?
Taundry - The only player that look interested the whole game but could not do anything.
Gray - If yesterday was anything to go by then he's just another mediocre player that nobody else wants.
Deeney - This lad is easily the most on-off player ive seen at Walsall, when hes on he's brilliant, when he's off he is unbelievably poor and yesterday was the latter.
Byfield - He just completely does my head in, when we signed him i said we will regret that and i knew it, useless all game, didn't cause a single threat and was easily our worst player for me.

Jones & Weston - Both created a few chances for us towards the end but nothing came of it, Glad to see Jones back though.

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:52 pm

Magic Man Fan wrote:Yes, an ageing goalkeeper that is making the defence in front of him look very nervous.

Yesterday wasn't an ideal game for Gilmartin to step in but he'll never improve until he learns to deal with the downs of conceding a number of goals. In a perverse way he'll learn from that experience and should make him stronger for it.

It would be typical WFC short termism to continue to play Ince this season. He still makes some good saves and is a decent enough keeper at this level but we can't keep playing him. If we do we might as well get rid of Gilmartin now. We're not going up, and we're not going down this season so stick Gilmartin in and lets find out if, given a decent run in the team he's worth keeping for next season. I think he'll prove that given time.

We said that last season, give him a run and see if he's worth keeping.
12 months on the jury is still out on him.

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:19 pm

Cully wrote:
geoffwhiting wrote:I thought this was an awful decision by Hutchings today, bringing in Gilmartin in such a game as this. OK, Ince may have been at fault in some instances lately, but he's also saved a darned sight more than he's conceded, so he could have been retained for this game and might have done well. If not, he could have been dropped and Rene eased back in with an easier game next week. It was absolutely obvious that we would come under massive pressure away at St Mary's today, and the last thing Rene needed was to come in and get a sackful hammered past him. Whether any were his fault or not is not the issue, he still conceded five, and that's something Ince has not done all season.

So how is Rene's confidence tonight? Shot to pieces probably, after getting his chance and seeing five hit the net and numerous others going past him and being cleared off the line by defenders?

He shouldn't have been exposed like this, so for me it was a crazy piece of judgment on Hutching part, to expose Rene to all of that on his comeback. :x


Geoff I don't understand your reasoning in your post. The facts are:- Ince has been playing poorly for the last few games I have seen. He has made basis mistakes like poor judgement which have cost us goals. To say 'that he's saved a darned sight more than he's conceeded' and he 'might have done well' for this game is quite franly pointless. At what stage does a manager drop a player, Ince has had his chance and it was not before time that he was dropped. All goal keepers save more than they conceed, it's their job, if you had seen Gilmartin in any of his previous games you might have had a different view. No one is denying that Ince has great experience but he is clearly failing in the fundimentals of keeping, he rarely catches the ball, instead he has started to punch the ball even when unopposed and his judgement and anticipation is extremely poor especially when it involves his defenders around the edge of the box. Rene Gilmartin is 22years old and has plenty of experience in the first team, to suggest he needs protecting from the big games and only plays in the 'easier' games is quite frankly ludicrous. I'm sure he realises that he is part of a team and that he won't be expected to shoulder the blame for the 5 goals conceeded, unfortunately that is not the case when it comes to supporters who haven't seen him play and instead conjure up a raft of 'reasons' why he both he and the management are at fault.
Apart from all that I agree that Hutchings makes awful decisions :D


I can see Geoff's point of view but must agree with Cully. In recent matches Ince has been costing us points. He has made a considerable number of howlers, many of which have cost us. As for Gilmartin, we cannot read his mind and tell if his confidence has been smashed. I was at the game yesterday (regretably) and as far as I could see he had no chance in any of the goals. He should take consolation from this. Keep him in, I say, Clayton has had his day. As for the rest, the plain fact of the matter is that -apart from Jones, Richards and Vincent - the rest are just not good enough. The new bloke (Grey) on the wing is just a disgrace - just wanders around, doesn't defend and doesn't attack They come out worse for every 50:50 ball, cannot string more than two passes together, just hoof the ball up field from defence and wait for its immediate return. Its been like this for months and months now. Who is to blame? Perhaps no-one.

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:41 pm

2nd 4th and definatly the 5th Gilmartin was at fault, not the only one at fault but still. Id still leave him in against Milwall.

Mind you, Richards free kick was "worldly" :mrgreen:

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:28 pm

Surrey Saddler wrote:
Cully wrote:
geoffwhiting wrote:I thought this was an awful decision by Hutchings today, bringing in Gilmartin in such a game as this. OK, Ince may have been at fault in some instances lately, but he's also saved a darned sight more than he's conceded, so he could have been retained for this game and might have done well. If not, he could have been dropped and Rene eased back in with an easier game next week. It was absolutely obvious that we would come under massive pressure away at St Mary's today, and the last thing Rene needed was to come in and get a sackful hammered past him. Whether any were his fault or not is not the issue, he still conceded five, and that's something Ince has not done all season.

So how is Rene's confidence tonight? Shot to pieces probably, after getting his chance and seeing five hit the net and numerous others going past him and being cleared off the line by defenders?

He shouldn't have been exposed like this, so for me it was a crazy piece of judgment on Hutching part, to expose Rene to all of that on his comeback. :x


Geoff I don't understand your reasoning in your post. The facts are:- Ince has been playing poorly for the last few games I have seen. He has made basis mistakes like poor judgement which have cost us goals. To say 'that he's saved a darned sight more than he's conceeded' and he 'might have done well' for this game is quite franly pointless. At what stage does a manager drop a player, Ince has had his chance and it was not before time that he was dropped. All goal keepers save more than they conceed, it's their job, if you had seen Gilmartin in any of his previous games you might have had a different view. No one is denying that Ince has great experience but he is clearly failing in the fundimentals of keeping, he rarely catches the ball, instead he has started to punch the ball even when unopposed and his judgement and anticipation is extremely poor especially when it involves his defenders around the edge of the box. Rene Gilmartin is 22years old and has plenty of experience in the first team, to suggest he needs protecting from the big games and only plays in the 'easier' games is quite frankly ludicrous. I'm sure he realises that he is part of a team and that he won't be expected to shoulder the blame for the 5 goals conceeded, unfortunately that is not the case when it comes to supporters who haven't seen him play and instead conjure up a raft of 'reasons' why he both he and the management are at fault.
Apart from all that I agree that Hutchings makes awful decisions :D


I can see Geoff's point of view but must agree with Cully. In recent matches Ince has been costing us points. He has made a considerable number of howlers, many of which have cost us. As for Gilmartin, we cannot read his mind and tell if his confidence has been smashed. I was at the game yesterday (regretably) and as far as I could see he had no chance in any of the goals. He should take consolation from this. Keep him in, I say, Clayton has had his day. As for the rest, the plain fact of the matter is that -apart from Jones, Richards and Vincent - the rest are just not good enough. The new bloke (Grey) on the wing is just a disgrace - just wanders around, doesn't defend and doesn't attack They come out worse for every 50:50 ball, cannot string more than two passes together, just hoof the ball up field from defence and wait for its immediate return. Its been like this for months and months now. Who is to blame? Perhaps no-one.


I respect your opinion SS (and Cully of course), and I would certainly have Gilmartin in the team vs Millwall and probably for the rest of the season as he, not Ince, must be the future for us (unless someone else is brought in). In fact I would have had Gilmartin in vs Millwall regardless of yesterday, but I still believe that yesterday was far from the ideal choice of game for him to return, given that we expected to come under great pressure and lose the game anyway to the best team in our division.

No-one knows if letting 5 goals in, on his first game back, will have had a negative effect on his morale and confidence, but there's surely no way it will have had a positive effect, is there? He didn't need to be exposed to that on his first game back. Rene should have come back a week or two ago, so he might have got himself settled into the team before the Saints' match, and that in my opinion is why Hutchings got this one wrong.

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:34 pm

Cully wrote:
geoffwhiting wrote:I thought this was an awful decision by Hutchings today, bringing in Gilmartin in such a game as this. OK, Ince may have been at fault in some instances lately, but he's also saved a darned sight more than he's conceded, so he could have been retained for this game and might have done well. If not, he could have been dropped and Rene eased back in with an easier game next week. It was absolutely obvious that we would come under massive pressure away at St Mary's today, and the last thing Rene needed was to come in and get a sackful hammered past him. Whether any were his fault or not is not the issue, he still conceded five, and that's something Ince has not done all season.

So how is Rene's confidence tonight? Shot to pieces probably, after getting his chance and seeing five hit the net and numerous others going past him and being cleared off the line by defenders?

He shouldn't have been exposed like this, so for me it was a crazy piece of judgement on Hutchings's part, to expose Rene to all of that on his comeback. :x


Geoff I don't understand your reasoning in your post. The facts are:- Ince has been playing poorly for the last few games I have seen. He has made basis mistakes like poor judgement which have cost us goals. To say 'that he's saved a darned sight more than he's conceded' and he 'might have done well' for this game is quite frankly pointless. At what stage does a manager drop a player, Ince has had his chance and it was not before time that he was dropped. All goal keepers save more than they concede, it's their job, if you had seen Gilmartin in any of his previous games you might have had a different view. No one is denying that Ince has great experience but he is clearly failing in the fundamentals of keeping, he rarely catches the ball, instead he has started to punch the ball even when unopposed and his judgement and anticipation is extremely poor especially when it involves his defenders around the edge of the box. Rene Gilmartin is 22 years old and has plenty of experience in the first team, to suggest he needs protecting from the big games and only plays in the 'easier' games is quite frankly ludicrous. I'm sure he realises that he is part of a team and that he won't be expected to shoulder the blame for the 5 goals conceded, unfortunately that is not the case when it comes to supporters who haven't seen him play and instead conjure up a raft of 'reasons' why he both he and the management are at fault.
Apart from all that I agree that Hutchings makes awful decisions :D


Actually, I agree with both of you, contrary though that may sound! :) Ince should be making his retirement plans as his form, this season, has deteriorated. I agree with Cully that it is time Gilmartin had a run in the team although I would suggest that 25 games spread over 5 years hardly qualifies as "plenty of experience" (q.v.). On the other hand, I agree with Geoff that yesterday was hardly the best time to bring in a rookie 'keeper. Gilmartin was always going to be on a hiding to nothing in the eyes of some posters on here. He could play an absolute stormer and keep out the full force of, say, the Barcelona forward line, keeping a clean sheet in the process, and still the likes of Latviancheese, Metfanwy and MOG would slag him off. Their minds are made up and nothing will change them. I do love closed minds! :mrgreen:

A better solution would have been to drop Ince once we were safe from relegation and tell Gilmartin that the shirt is his, no matter what, until the end of the season, thus taking any extra pressure off him. Bring back Ince for the last match, at home to MK Franchise, to let the fans bid him a fond farewell and 'thank you' for his service to WFC. He can then retire back to Trinidad and his football coaching school for deprived kids. In the meantime, Gilmartin will have gained valuable experience and the management will be able to decide whether he is good enough or not for a new contract for next season. However, I do appreciate that this might constitute intelligent and constructive team management and, therefore, would not fit in the scheme of things at Bescot.

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:51 pm

Pedagogue wrote:
Cully wrote:
geoffwhiting wrote:I thought this was an awful decision by Hutchings today, bringing in Gilmartin in such a game as this. OK, Ince may have been at fault in some instances lately, but he's also saved a darned sight more than he's conceded, so he could have been retained for this game and might have done well. If not, he could have been dropped and Rene eased back in with an easier game next week. It was absolutely obvious that we would come under massive pressure away at St Mary's today, and the last thing Rene needed was to come in and get a sackful hammered past him. Whether any were his fault or not is not the issue, he still conceded five, and that's something Ince has not done all season.

So how is Rene's confidence tonight? Shot to pieces probably, after getting his chance and seeing five hit the net and numerous others going past him and being cleared off the line by defenders?

He shouldn't have been exposed like this, so for me it was a crazy piece of judgement on Hutchings's part, to expose Rene to all of that on his comeback. :x


Geoff I don't understand your reasoning in your post. The facts are:- Ince has been playing poorly for the last few games I have seen. He has made basis mistakes like poor judgement which have cost us goals. To say 'that he's saved a darned sight more than he's conceded' and he 'might have done well' for this game is quite frankly pointless. At what stage does a manager drop a player, Ince has had his chance and it was not before time that he was dropped. All goal keepers save more than they concede, it's their job, if you had seen Gilmartin in any of his previous games you might have had a different view. No one is denying that Ince has great experience but he is clearly failing in the fundamentals of keeping, he rarely catches the ball, instead he has started to punch the ball even when unopposed and his judgement and anticipation is extremely poor especially when it involves his defenders around the edge of the box. Rene Gilmartin is 22 years old and has plenty of experience in the first team, to suggest he needs protecting from the big games and only plays in the 'easier' games is quite frankly ludicrous. I'm sure he realises that he is part of a team and that he won't be expected to shoulder the blame for the 5 goals conceded, unfortunately that is not the case when it comes to supporters who haven't seen him play and instead conjure up a raft of 'reasons' why he both he and the management are at fault.
Apart from all that I agree that Hutchings makes awful decisions :D


Actually, I agree with both of you, contrary though that may sound! :) Ince should be making his retirement plans as his form, this season, has deteriorated. I agree with Cully that it is time Gilmartin had a run in the team although I would suggest that 25 games spread over 5 years hardly qualifies as "plenty of experience" (q.v.). On the other hand, I agree with Geoff that yesterday was hardly the best time to bring in a rookie 'keeper. Gilmartin was always going to be on a hiding to nothing in the eyes of some posters on here. He could play an absolute stormer and keep out the full force of, say, the Barcelona forward line, keeping a clean sheet in the process, and still the likes of Latviancheese, Metfanwy and MOG would slag him off. Their minds are made up and nothing will change them. I do love closed minds! :mrgreen:

A better solution would have been to drop Ince once we were safe from relegation and tell Gilmartin that the shirt is his, no matter what, until the end of the season, thus taking any extra pressure off him. Bring back Ince for the last match, at home to MK Franchise, to let the fans bid him a fond farewell and 'thank you' for his service to WFC. He can then retire back to Trinidad and his football coaching school for deprived kids. In the meantime, Gilmartin will have gained valuable experience and the management will be able to decide whether he is good enough or not for a new contract for next season. However, I do appreciate that this might constitute intelligent and constructive team management and, therefore, would not fit in the scheme of things at Bescot.


That's about spot-on, Pedagogue (IMHO).

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:25 pm

Graydon48 wrote:
Magic Man Fan wrote:Yes, an ageing goalkeeper that is making the defence in front of him look very nervous.

Yesterday wasn't an ideal game for Gilmartin to step in but he'll never improve until he learns to deal with the downs of conceding a number of goals. In a perverse way he'll learn from that experience and should make him stronger for it.

It would be typical WFC short termism to continue to play Ince this season. He still makes some good saves and is a decent enough keeper at this level but we can't keep playing him. If we do we might as well get rid of Gilmartin now. We're not going up, and we're not going down this season so stick Gilmartin in and lets find out if, given a decent run in the team he's worth keeping for next season. I think he'll prove that given time.

We said that last season, give him a run and see if he's worth keeping.
12 months on the jury is still out on him.


Yes, and what run has he had in the team? :roll:

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:46 pm

geoffwhiting wrote:
Pedagogue wrote:
Cully wrote:
geoffwhiting wrote:wrote some stuff


told Geoff it was a load of rubbish in quite a polite way [for him!]
attempted to take a middle line agreeing with both Cully and Geoff.



That's about spot-on, Pedagogue (IMHO).


For goodness sake Geoff, stop creeping to the teacher. Just because he's OLDER than you, you don't have to agree with him :roll:

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:52 pm

Cully wrote:
geoffwhiting wrote:
Pedagogue wrote:
Cully wrote:
geoffwhiting wrote:wrote some stuff


told Geoff it was a load of rubbish in quite a polite way [for him!]
attempted to take a middle line agreeing with both Cully and Geoff.


That's about spot-on, Pedagogue (IMHO).


For goodness sake Geoff, stop creeping to the teacher. Just because he's OLDER than you, you don't have to agree with him :roll:


Behave, Cully! :D

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:01 pm

Pedagogue wrote:
Behave, Cully! :D


YES SIR!

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:11 pm

I have read several posts over the past couple of days referring to Southampton as the best team in the league etc. How can this be? Even with there 10 points back they would be 20 odd points behind the leaders :?

I know that football is supposed to be a game of opinions, but some things can be deduced from factual information, ie. the league table, and after 30 odd games it tells a story.

Maybe Southampton just like playing against us :evil:

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:27 pm

chestersaddler wrote:I have read several posts over the past couple of days referring to Southampton as the best team in the league etc. How can this be? Even with there 10 points back they would be 20 odd points behind the leaders :?

I know that football is supposed to be a game of opinions, but some things can be deduced from factual information, ie. the league table, and after 30 odd games it tells a story.

Maybe Southampton just like playing against us :evil:


Spot on, Chester.
They have looked the best team in the league in their games against us this season - but the league table tells a very different story. Does anyone have a list of teams that Gilmartin shouldn't face?

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:41 pm

chestersaddler wrote:I have read several posts over the past couple of days referring to Southampton as the best team in the league etc. How can this be? Even with there 10 points back they would be 20 odd points behind the leaders :?

I know that football is supposed to be a game of opinions, but some things can be deduced from factual information, ie. the league table, and after 30 odd games it tells a story.

Maybe Southampton just like playing against us :evil:


Oh dear, many apologies, :oops: :oops:

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:37 pm

moanin old git wrote:
chestersaddler wrote:I have read several posts over the past couple of days referring to Southampton as the best team in the league etc. How can this be? Even with there 10 points back they would be 20 odd points behind the leaders :?

I know that football is supposed to be a game of opinions, but some things can be deduced from factual information, ie. the league table, and after 30 odd games it tells a story.

Maybe Southampton just like playing against us :evil:


Most certainly they would have enjoyed playing against us yesterday, can you imagine the pre match talk in thier dressing
room?
"For some inconceivable reason our opponents today have decided to put in a goal a 'parks pitch' quality 'reserve' goalkeeper.
Here is your chance to enjoy yourselves Kiddas, it will be like a shooting gallery, thier defence is iffy at the best of times,
but with an inexperienced 'rookie' goalie between the sticks, instead of thier International first teamer, we can get a hatful!"

And what happened...answer Cully on a postcard please......... :wink:


Oh dear moaning, agreeing with your own posts is lacking somewhat in quality especially when you didn't attend and forget to preface them with.....'Once upon a time' and end them with .....'and they all lived happliy ever after'.

There, that's better isn't it?

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:38 pm

If it wasn't for rene's injury earlier on in the season there would be no debate.

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:50 pm

stonesaddler wrote:If it wasn't for rene's injury earlier on in the season there would be no debate.


Quite possibly true, and Rene would be a more settled and confident 'keeper for us by now. He should probably have come back several weeks ago, although we should remember that Clayton was perhaps instrumental in us winning a memorable match at Elland Road very recently.

Rene should be in the side vs Millwall on Saturday and for the rest of the season if he stays fit, but I still would not have picked yesterday for his come-back.

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:59 pm

I'd like to apologise to the Oxford based Saddler I was with in Yates after the game. We were having a great laugh for the whole of the Stoke V Arsenal game and I must have said something to offend him as he scarpered quick.

I'd had far too many sherbets and whatever I said Im very sorry. Hope he reads this, I know hes a lurker not a poster.

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:34 pm

I agree there geoff. As I said early on in this thread. Was always a tough game to come back for.

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:37 pm

Actuallly Pedagogue, i think you will find earlier in the season i praised him in those games where he played alright. I still dont hold much confidence in him though.

I also dont think he has been given a fair crack at it, i dont see why he shouldnt play every game now we have nowt to play for. Then we shall see how crap he really is.

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:33 am

I'm sure I read in another thread a while ago someone saying that as soon has rene was fit he should have gone straight back into the team.

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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:39 am

stonesaddler wrote:I'm sure I read in another thread a while ago someone saying that as soon has rene was fit he should have gone straight back into the team.


Yes i think i was one of those that said that and i still think he should have. Ince's form has dropped considerably this season, especially since his decision to end his international career.
With nothing to play for might as well give Gilmartin the rest of the season to see what he can do.

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chestersaddler
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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:55 am

Just watched the goals on Sadsworld.

I hope that Hutchings is unhappy with all five goals, which all looked due to poor defending, either collectively or Individually. Too much space / poor marking in the penalty area, lack of closing down or in the case of 4 and 5, errors by Westlake and Gilmartin.

Our goal was great though :D

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Duke
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Re: Southampton (A) League 1 Saturday 27/2/10.

Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:55 am

Just saw the goals for the first time,

Cracking effort from Richards , as for the rest least said soonest mended :(

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