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Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Reports and reaction from the 2008-09 season as Walsall finished 13th in League 1
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Codsall Saddler
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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:44 pm

Had a nightmare last night - must have been the cheese I ate before retiring.

Dreamed that we were 2-0 up and coasting against a poor team. And then, you'll never believe this, we threw it away and lost 2-3. In the nightmare, we were clueless and showed a lack of motivation in the second half with dumb substitutions and a questionable team selection. The nightmare was made worse by a poor crowd, many of whom had gone before the end.

I'll just get the Sunday papers and check the results.

'Mrs Codsall, would you pass the Sunday Blah. What's that - get it yourself fat lad you need the exercise'

Here we are - League 1. Where's our result?

Oh my God, nurse, my tablets and the gin quickly.

clawtheolder
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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:00 pm

What did Jim say a few weeks back," they`re shouting my name now but in a few weeks time they could be calling for my head . I`ll keep my feet firmly on the ground ". To true there Jim lad.

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:28 pm

if we play like that why are the fans going to pay to watch them?

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geoffwhiting
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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:50 pm

cumonureds wrote:if we play like that why are the fans going to pay to watch them?


Well, in MY case, I don't.

Seems from comments on here that there are going to be further reductions in attendances if this clown carries on with this clueless, tactic-less stuff that the team are serving up.

So the continuing fall in attendances will be down to (a) anti-JB protestors (b) the credit-crunch AND now (c) the rubbish cheap-option clue-less manager that a lot of us ........ NO, not going there, too controversial ! :D

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:50 pm

2 nill up and then lose 3-2.

One word..

stupid load of f*****g twits!!!

Fire the lot of em...!!!

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:43 pm

Sound_out wrote:2 nill up and then lose 3-2.

One word..

stupid load of f*****g twits!!!

Fire the lot of em...!!!


Absolutely !!

Good God, I agreed with you! :? :lol:

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:56 am

geoffwhiting wrote:Seems from comments on here that there are going to be further reductions in attendances if this clown carries on with this clueless, tactic-less stuff that the team are serving up.


How do you know?

What about the great performances?

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Neil Ravenscroft
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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:06 am

saddlerken wrote:
geoffwhiting wrote:Seems from comments on here that there are going to be further reductions in attendances if this clown carries on with this clueless, tactic-less stuff that the team are serving up.


How do you know?

What about the great performances?


I think they tend to prove the point, actually. It's becoming perfectly obvious that we have an extremely talented first XI and, when Plan A works, we are capable of beating most, if not all the teams in the Division. When, however, we get Plan A wrong, like we did against Posh, or the opposition do something to counter it, like Hartlepool did, then we are clueless. That' I'm afraid, is purely, 100%, down to the Manager and the Coach.

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:15 am

Neil Ravenscroft wrote:
saddlerken wrote:
geoffwhiting wrote:Seems from comments on here that there are going to be further reductions in attendances if this clown carries on with this clueless, tactic-less stuff that the team are serving up.


How do you know?

What about the great performances?


I think they tend to prove the point, actually. It's becoming perfectly obvious that we have an extremely talented first XI and, when Plan A works, we are capable of beating most, if not all the teams in the Division. When, however, we get Plan A wrong, like we did against Posh, or the opposition do something to counter it, like Hartlepool did, then we are clueless. That' I'm afraid, is purely, 100%, down to the Manager and the Coach.


Spot on. Its no good Sound_Out arguing we should 'fire the lot of 'em' (however angry we all are). It was 'the lot of 'em' that sent us 2-0 up after 13 minutes by playing some scintilating football. But their own job is to worry about their own performances. They don't compile info on the opposition players, understand what changes the opposition have made and attempt to nullify new threats. They get on with what the manager (presumably) told them to do when they were picked to play.

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:21 am

King Crimson wrote:Spot on. Its no good Sound_Out arguing we should 'fire the lot of 'em' (however angry we all are). It was 'the lot of 'em' that sent us 2-0 up after 13 minutes by playing some scintilating football. But their own job is to worry about their own performances. They don't compile info on the opposition players, understand what changes the opposition have made and attempt to nullify new threats. They get on with what the manager (presumably) told them to do when they were picked to play.


Yes and no KC. Of course, tactically, I think we all recognise it went wrong on Saturday. It was crying out for a change in both personnel and tactics at 2-0, we didn't do it and we ended up losing.

However, you can't absolve some of the players from blame as well. Ricketts put in minimal effort in the 2nd half. Ibehre was totally ineffective. Deeney missed from a yard when it was easier to score. Palmer decided he'd done enough for the game etc etc. These were all factors in the defeat. Which may or may not have been avoided by a couple of timely substitutions.

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:21 am

King Crimson wrote:
Neil Ravenscroft wrote:
saddlerken wrote:
geoffwhiting wrote:Seems from comments on here that there are going to be further reductions in attendances if this clown carries on with this clueless, tactic-less stuff that the team are serving up.


How do you know?

What about the great performances?


I think they tend to prove the point, actually. It's becoming perfectly obvious that we have an extremely talented first XI and, when Plan A works, we are capable of beating most, if not all the teams in the Division. When, however, we get Plan A wrong, like we did against Posh, or the opposition do something to counter it, like Hartlepool did, then we are clueless. That' I'm afraid, is purely, 100%, down to the Manager and the Coach.


Spot on. Its no good Sound_Out arguing we should 'fire the lot of 'em' (however angry we all are). It was 'the lot of 'em' that sent us 2-0 up after 13 minutes by playing some scintilating football. But their own job is to worry about their own performances. They don't compile info on the opposition players, understand what changes the opposition have made and attempt to nullify new threats. They get on with what the manager (presumably) told them to do when they were picked to play.


Hold on, we're over-analysing this.

What did Hartlepool do to counter our tactics? We couldn't keep the ball, we just couldn't keep the sodding thing. During the first half I was screaming my head off for them to put their foot on it, keep it on the deck and keep the ball! If you stand off the opposition and cant keep possession then its a training exercise for them, and they just got stronger and stronger in possession and started stretching us with wingers. Not really 'countering' anything we did or tried to do.

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:30 am

ShropsSaddler wrote:
King Crimson wrote:Spot on. Its no good Sound_Out arguing we should 'fire the lot of 'em' (however angry we all are). It was 'the lot of 'em' that sent us 2-0 up after 13 minutes by playing some scintilating football. But their own job is to worry about their own performances. They don't compile info on the opposition players, understand what changes the opposition have made and attempt to nullify new threats. They get on with what the manager (presumably) told them to do when they were picked to play.


Yes and no KC. Of course, tactically, I think we all recognise it went wrong on Saturday. It was crying out for a change in both personnel and tactics at 2-0, we didn't do it and we ended up losing.

However, you can't absolve some of the players from blame as well. Ricketts put in minimal effort in the 2nd half. Ibehre was totally ineffective. Deeney missed from a yard when it was easier to score. Palmer decided he'd done enough for the game etc etc. These were all factors in the defeat. Which may or may not have been avoided by a couple of timely substitutions.


I think some of the criticism of Ricketts is unfair. On several occasions he took up position in midfield to cover a player out of position. He even blocked a cross that was going to be sent in from the goal line. If you want a player who'll run their lungs out for 90 minutes, you don't select MR. Never has, never will. But, he will score goals if you play him, and generate a fair share of assists.

Ibehre was ill in the week, doubtful for the game. If he's knackered (he clearly was) the manager has to haul him off. Ibehre wasn't 'totally ineffective' - he scored a goal! He was also named MoM ( :mrgreen: )

Deeney missed from a yard because he's not very good. Can you blame him for that? Maybe, but most people with eyes can see he's not very good. He's scored two goals in over a year, and has played a fair number of games in that time. If poor players are picked and miss chances, where should the blame lie?

For Palmer see Deeney. Taking a good corner isn't enough for most managers to pick a player.

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:34 am

Neil, to be honest, I agree

This is my view

Mullen is not going to get us promoted

Mullen was the cheap option

We always go for a cheap option and this is no different from any other point during Boners tenure

The stay aways have chosen now as a time to stay away, I think that this message board has encouraged this

The lack of investment February onwards last year, albeit rather depressing is no different from any other point on Bonsers tenure, I think the lack of investment when we were in the championship after Cardiff away was far worse followed by the appointment of the drunk which is why I find the standpoint of many fans hard to contemplate, if people wanted to stay away, THAT was the time, people on here were going to watch that ***** team for 2 YEARS and now there is revolt, doesn't make sense to me

We are in a good financial position as a football club right now and we will continue to do things on the cheap, this is no different

Until Boner leaves then nothing will change and staying away wont change things, in fact, it will make things worse

Boner will not care one bit about people not coming

If you look at things objectively as a football club with current levels of support, we are still handly placed.

We are a 3rd division football club, always have been, there is no doubt that there is potential for things to be better. I am right behind fans trying to get the communication between club and fans and also the marketing improved but the stay aways ultimately want a new owner and I'm afraid this won't happen. If the stay aways are staying away because they are sick of Boner then stay away for another 10 years because depressing as it might seem, he's going to be around for a while yet.

Despite me feeling that Mullen cannot get the best of what we have, I have sympathy for him, especially those getting on his back that don't go, there have been worse managers and of course better and he is about as avaerage amongst all our managers in the last 20 years but he is taking inflated critisism because of the current 'depression' around certain fans

Mullen goes, cheap option number 2 takes over, I assume Schofield would, is he the answer? NOPE

I can't change anything, I don't know any millionaires personally so rather than be depressed I'm going to keep on going

Life's too short, I dont want my favourite hobby to be constantly a negative experience and the constant anti Bonser/Mullen talk is getting really depressing

I get the feeling that the stay aways will still be posting in 6 months the same old stuff time until such time as Bonser does something tiny (speaking to one Walsall fan) and then all will be forgiven

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:35 am

philthesaddler wrote:Hold on, we're over-analysing this.

What did Hartlepool do to counter our tactics? We couldn't keep the ball, we just couldn't keep the sodding thing. During the first half I was screaming my head off for them to put their foot on it, keep it on the deck and keep the ball! If you stand off the opposition and cant keep possession then its a training exercise for them, and they just got stronger and stronger in possession and started stretching us with wingers. Not really 'countering' anything we did or tried to do.


They did what anybody with half a brain would do Phil: They exploited our weakness on the wings to great effect. Tommy Mooney may have talked a lot of nonsense, but I remember him saying that Richard Money was the best manager he'd ever played under when it came to preparation based on an understanding of what the opposition had to offer. Hartlepool fans may have felt their manager didn't know what he was doing, but by taking Porter off for a player who could get the ball from midfield, he made a big difference to the number of attacking opportunities they created.

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:44 am

saddlerken wrote:Mullen was the cheap option


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that you really get cheap options in terms of managers. At League 1 level they're all going to earn roughly the same - and it'll be less than most of the players. I'd guess that your typical League 1 manager is on about £40k-50k a year, which is a decent wage, but "only" about £800 a week: low for a player. Not many are going to take much less than that (and I bet Mullen isn't on less than the lower of those figures). Yes, I imagine that you could try to get a much more expensive manager than that - but it might actually be difficult to persuade anyone who could justify that salary to risk the damage to their career that failure in League 1 would bring. I'd be surprised if anyone but Di Matteo and McAllister are on six-figure salaries in League 1 (maybe Pearson too I suppose).

Also, there's only one manager - so there's not really a lot of scope for scrimping and saving on his salary compared to even very small changes in players' wage (e.g, a saving of £40k - equivalent to no manager at all - can be achieved by reducing twenty players' wages by £40 a week each - they'd hardly notice that after tax, NI, pension etc).

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:47 am

Plastic Hawk wrote:
saddlerken wrote:Mullen was the cheap option


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that you really get cheap options in terms of managers. At League 1 level they're all going to earn roughly the same - and it'll be less than most of the players. I'd guess that your typical League 1 manager is on about £40k-50k a year, which is a decent wage, but "only" about £800 a week: low for a player. Not many are going to take much less than that (and I bet Mullen isn't on less than the lower of those figures). Yes, I imagine that you could try to get a much more expensive manager than that - but it might actually be difficult to persuade anyone who could justify that salary to risk the damage to their career that failure in League 1 would bring. I'd be surprised if anyone but Di Matteo and McAllister are on six-figure salaries in League 1 (maybe Pearson too I suppose).

Also, there's only one manager - so there's not really a lot of scope for scrimping and saving on his salary compared to even very small changes in players' wage (e.g, a saving of £40k - equivalent to no manager at all - can be achieved by reducing twenty players' wages by £40 a week each - they'd hardly notice that after tax, NI, pension etc).


Cheaper to keep him on as manager than keep him on and pay another bloke to be manager. Or to pay him off and pay another bloke to be manager.

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:49 am

Plastic, fair enough

Which I guess makes the stay aways argument wrong then if you take that stance

It was a lazy and easy option

Mullen also wont kick up a fuss in the press and he can be dictated too by Boner

Which kind of proves that he is very happy to remain in division 3

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:59 am

saddlerken wrote:Plastic, fair enough

Which I guess makes the stay aways argument wrong then if you take that stance

It was a lazy and easy option

Mullen also wont kick up a fuss in the press and he can be dictated too by Boner

Which kind of proves that he is very happy to remain in division 3


I don't agree with the stay-aways' argument anyway - but I can understand why they see things how they do (and I don't believe Mullen's appointment is a major part of it compared to the stuff that happened before then - however, they can argue their case well enough without me).

I think that Mullen was indeed the easy option for all of the reasons that you state - and I said so at the time of his appointment.

But, I actually think that Bonser's biggest problem here is that he sees himself as some conjurer of genius managerial appointments from left field. He sees Graydon and Money as the blueprint for all of our appointments. Both were unheralded at the time they were appointed and went on to lead us to promotion. So, rather than looking for the best candidate for the job he looks for someone who'll give him some reflected glory if things go well (even Merson fits that bill - nobody in the game thought he had the personality to be a manager, but JB wanted to give him every chance to prove them wrong).

However, I believe that Bonser's wrong to see his appointments in that way. I've been told that he was presented with Graydon as a potential manager by STM 12 months before he eventually did appoint him, but chose to go with Sorensen instead. Only after that had gone wrong did he go back to STM and ask him to get in touch with Graydon again. Also, his view on appointing a proven manager has been tainted by the subsequent fall out with Lee - despite the fact that he is the only manager for forty years to keep us up in the second tier.

I don't believe that Bonser is happy to stay in Division 3. I think he's well aware of the potential riches to be obtained by moving up the Leagues (he'll know what mistakes not to make this time round). But he wants to get there on his own terms - and in a way that has everyone saying "look what Jeff Bonser has done for little Walsall", rather than all of the credit going to someone else (like the manager).

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:03 am

Plastic Hawk wrote:However, I believe that Bonser's wrong to see his appointments in that way. I've been told that he was presented with Graydon as a potential manager by STM 12 months before he eventually did appoint him, but chose to go with Sorensen instead. Only after that had gone wrong did he go back to STM and ask him to get in touch with Graydon again. Also, his view on appointing a proven manager has been tainted by the subsequent fall out with Lee - despite the fact that he is the only manager for forty years to keep us up in the second tier.

I thought Graydon was a buddy of Chris Nicholl and it was he that suggested Sir Ray to JB.

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:04 am

erm......I agree

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:08 am

PJD wrote:
Plastic Hawk wrote:However, I believe that Bonser's wrong to see his appointments in that way. I've been told that he was presented with Graydon as a potential manager by STM 12 months before he eventually did appoint him, but chose to go with Sorensen instead. Only after that had gone wrong did he go back to STM and ask him to get in touch with Graydon again. Also, his view on appointing a proven manager has been tainted by the subsequent fall out with Lee - despite the fact that he is the only manager for forty years to keep us up in the second tier.

I thought Graydon was a buddy of Chris Nicholl and it was he that suggested Sir Ray to JB.


The person I heard it from is very close to STM - so it's not impossible that his role in the thing may have been exaggerated. For me though, the main point is that Bonser could have appointed Graydon earlier, bur preferred to go for an even more left field appointment first - and that the impetus for the appointment came from someone else. It wasn't a piece of JB genius - which he clearly thinks it was.

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:12 am

I thought Mullen was on about £80k a year. That was the figure I heard from somewhere.

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:16 am

The thing is though, JM was apparently picked in the end due to his qualifications. He has every coaching badge available, and could manage a Premiership team, if it were only decided on coaching qualifications. Using tactics in a game to good effect is obviously a completely different thing

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:16 am

King Crimson wrote:I thought Mullen was on about £80k a year. That was the figure I heard from somewhere.


:shock: :shock: :shock:

That surprises me. But, if it is correct, surely it just makes it even more unlikely that he's a cheap option.

It's fairly likely that I've guessed the typical salaries wrong - but unless they're much higher than a player's I don't see how it's possible to make significant savings in the overall budget by appointing a (single) cheap manager compared to making much smaller cuts in the wage budget for players. Even £80k is a tiny fraction of the total wage bill at the club (wasn't it in the millions in the last accounts?).

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:40 am

King Crimson wrote:
philthesaddler wrote:Hold on, we're over-analysing this.

What did Hartlepool do to counter our tactics? We couldn't keep the ball, we just couldn't keep the sodding thing. During the first half I was screaming my head off for them to put their foot on it, keep it on the deck and keep the ball! If you stand off the opposition and cant keep possession then its a training exercise for them, and they just got stronger and stronger in possession and started stretching us with wingers. Not really 'countering' anything we did or tried to do.


They did what anybody with half a brain would do Phil: They exploited our weakness on the wings to great effect. Tommy Mooney may have talked a lot of nonsense, but I remember him saying that Richard Money was the best manager he'd ever played under when it came to preparation based on an understanding of what the opposition had to offer. Hartlepool fans may have felt their manager didn't know what he was doing, but by taking Porter off for a player who could get the ball from midfield, he made a big difference to the number of attacking opportunities they created.


Im not disagreeing with you, Money was excellent at organising the team, and Wilson did make a sensible substitution - they started playing like chelsea with two wide men right pushed forward and a big bloke in the middle [Kyle].

However, what really got my goat was the way we constantly invited pressure by our simple inability to keep the ball. How many times did you see Weston or Boertien slice a clearance that came straight back at us? how many times did you see Jabo hold his man off, only to lose it cos he had no support?

It terms of 'quality of football' that we played, thats one of the worst performances I've ever seen from a Walsall side. We looked really really agricultural. We had oppurtunities to take the game by the scruff of the neck and stop them playing football, but instead we just kept giving the ball away. I was screaming [ask MMF] "just f*cking keep the ball"

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:16 am

philthesaddler wrote:Im not disagreeing with you, Money was excellent at organising the team, and Wilson did make a sensible substitution - they started playing like chelsea with two wide men right pushed forward and a big bloke in the middle [Kyle].

However, what really got my goat was the way we constantly invited pressure by our simple inability to keep the ball. How many times did you see Weston or Boertien slice a clearance that came straight back at us? how many times did you see Jabo hold his man off, only to lose it cos he had no support?

It terms of 'quality of football' that we played, thats one of the worst performances I've ever seen from a Walsall side. We looked really really agricultural. We had oppurtunities to take the game by the scruff of the neck and stop them playing football, but instead we just kept giving the ball away. I was screaming [ask MMF] "just f*cking keep the ball"


I agree too, but look at who we're asking: Deeney (ex-brickie and teenager), Palmer (ex-League Two Wycombe), Taundry (local lad who 'runs his socks off' [TM], and Mattis. Not replete with experience, guile or skill really. If I were Boertien or Weston, and I had Palmer or Deeney playing in front of me, I'd try to hoof the ball as far away as I could too.

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:20 am

PJD wrote:I thought Graydon was a buddy of Chris Nicholl and it was he that suggested Sir Ray to JB.


Correct.

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:55 am

King Crimson wrote:
philthesaddler wrote:Im not disagreeing with you, Money was excellent at organising the team, and Wilson did make a sensible substitution - they started playing like chelsea with two wide men right pushed forward and a big bloke in the middle [Kyle].

However, what really got my goat was the way we constantly invited pressure by our simple inability to keep the ball. How many times did you see Weston or Boertien slice a clearance that came straight back at us? how many times did you see Jabo hold his man off, only to lose it cos he had no support?

It terms of 'quality of football' that we played, thats one of the worst performances I've ever seen from a Walsall side. We looked really really agricultural. We had oppurtunities to take the game by the scruff of the neck and stop them playing football, but instead we just kept giving the ball away. I was screaming [ask MMF] "just f*cking keep the ball"


I agree too, but look at who we're asking: Deeney (ex-brickie and teenager), Palmer (ex-League Two Wycombe), Taundry (local lad who 'runs his socks off' [TM], and Mattis. Not replete with experience, guile or skill really. If I were Boertien or Weston, and I had Palmer or Deeney playing in front of me, I'd try to hoof the ball as far away as I could too.


The rebuilding job in the summer is looking more and more lopsided. No right winger and, on Saturday, despite having one left winger on the books and having brought in two more in in the summer, we start with a 2nd division utility player there.

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WFC_Rob
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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:37 pm

philthesaddler wrote:However, what really got my goat was the way we constantly invited pressure by our simple inability to keep the ball. How many times did you see Weston or Boertien slice a clearance that came straight back at us? how many times did you see Jabo hold his man off, only to lose it cos he had no support?

Both of those problems were the result of a common cause - no half decent wide players in midfield.

As wide players, Palmer and Deeney should have been pulling out to their touchlines whenever Boertein or Weston had the ball at their feet. A simple ball rolled down the line is always the easiest ball to play and should mean that we're not under pressure again within a matter of seconds. Neither Palmer or Deeney have the ability or thought to do that though, which isn't the best of scenarios to be in when you're already without your best player in the middle of the park who does his share of sweeping up the scraps.

In the opposite direction, Ibehre should be able to hold the ball up, play it out wide and get into the box. That didn't happen on Saturday either.

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Re: Hartlepool United (H) League 1 Saturday18/10/08

Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:30 am

King Crimson wrote:I thought Mullen was on about £80k a year. That was the figure I heard from somewhere.


Nope. PH was close with his previous estimation.

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