Walsall v leyton Orient 6/9/08 (H) League 1

[Neil Ravenscroft]

I agree with Cannock. I think that many posters allow themselves to be totally influenced by the result when they discuss our performance. We lost today, which was sickening, but I thought that we played better football and had more promise then when we beat Scunthorpe a few weeks ago.

There is no doubt that Roberts was taken off because of his injury problems. It may have been that Roberts started having trouble with his calf, but I suspect that Mullen thought that it would be safe to take him off for the last 20 minutes, and better to do that than to risk asking too much from Roberts as he gets back to full fitness. After all Manny Smith did OK in the second half last week, better in fact that Roberts had in the first half against Southend. If it was a gamble (rather than a forced substitution) then it did not work out, but nobody gets every decision right.

I have to disagree on two vital points:

1 We didn't create anything and never looked like creating anything. Even when Iberhe had one of his good runs, we never had anyone else in the box at all. Hughes and Taundry just failed completely to get up in time and both wingers were too deep, leaving Ishy as the only support.

2 We were making the same defensive mistake in the first half as resulted in the third goal - I mentioned it at half time, so it wasn't hindsight. The whole defense on more than one occasion got pulled over to the right hand side, Roberts towards Palmer, Gerrard towards Roberts, leaving Boertien to cover the entire left flank. Once their spare midfielder or the right back made a run, Reich wasn't covering, so Boertien had to take the inside man and Mulligan was left with the freedom of the Banks's to roam about in. Fortunately, they failed to exploit it before the second goal, but they should have.

I'm afraid Mullen should have reacted to both issues and, in fact, reacted to neither.

[Duke]

A classic case of after the lord mayor's show how often does that happen in football .
Questions have to be asked if Roberts was not injured why was he brought off , why was the back 4 unsettled so much as we conceded the first goal straight after the substitution .

For me last weeks result means very little , we have to play our strongest team we didn't and it cost us.


Mirek get you PM's

[fensaddler]

I rather wondered whether this would happen. We have a storming performance last week in front of a poor crowd, which pulls in a better crowd this week, helped by the fun day and no football at other local clubs. The crowd is in a benevolent and positive mood, and the away supporters are of the civilised variety. We then go and blow it and lose, when we should have been building from last week. Cue back to square one for confidence and no chance of giving the returnees in that crowd something to return again for.

I don't think I say anything that anyone doesn't know in saying that we need better cover in central defence, especially if Roberts is going to be as injury prone, and Smith as gaffe prone, as they appear to be. We're likely only to have Gerrard for a few more months, so we really do need to bring in some new blood.

Ishmel was his usual self this week, and in hindsight should not have been playing in a striking role, but I would have picked him too, so my mistake as well. Ricketts was nothing special when he came on however, though he got exactly the same treatment as Jabo from the Orient defenders, being mauled, pulled, fouled and generally abused without any protection from the officials. The officials' mediocrity was summed up by Reich's booking - a tackle made to look far worse by the conditions - yes it was a foul - which even Melligan, who was on the receiving end, thought was not malicious, and went to tell the ref so, and comiserate with Reich.

Deeney had one of the best games I've seen him play, and looked one of the more effective players on the pitch, and probably the most effective in midfield. I could see the logic of the substitution, but it only added to the general decline as the second half progressed that we took Troy off. It is rare that substitutions make a side look progressively worse - but this was the case today - from an effective, passing unit, albeit one with little final product, we looked increasingly disjointed and vulnerable. Credit to Orient - the ref should have pulled them up about the cynical tactics of their central defenders, but otherwise they played an astute away team game - defending stoutly, harrying, and then breaking effectively, particularly through Melligan (so that's what a good winger looks like - I'd almost forgotten...).

Once we have everyone back to fitness, I think I would be looking to:

Ince

Weston - Roberts - Gerrard - Boertein

Palmer - Mattis - Hughes - Reich

Ibehre - Ricketts

I'd be back to using Ishy as an impact player, and hoping we have better cover for central defence in particular. On present form however, and unless the return of key players makes a considerable difference, and we get cover for central defence, I'd say we're looking at mid-table. We're capable of good performances against some teams, and being pretty poor against others, attaining little consistency or tactical cogency.

[Duke]

According to the OS , both Hughes and Roberts have calf problems.

[Bernie]

I
Deeney had one of the best games I've seen him play, and looked one of the more effective players on the pitch, and probably the most effective in midfield. I could see the logic of the substitution, but it only added to the general decline as the second half progressed that we took Troy off.

I agree with that.

I wonder if Deeney might make a central midfielder, or even a full back. To me that seems a lot more likely than him becoming a decent striker or a winger.

[tape66]

Moooorrrrrr riiiiiis, Moooorrrrrr riiiiiis, Moooorrrrrr riiiiiis, Moooorrrrrr riiiiiis :lol:

[Neuromantic]

Troy Deeney was rubbish yesterday. All he does is run around and slide tackle. Hasn't anyone noticed that his second touch is always a tackle?

Deeney Central Midfield? You must be having a laugh surely...? In midfield you need creativity, positional awareness, good passing and movement. Deeney has none of those attributes. Beggars belief to suggest Deeney should play in midfield.

How many crosses did he put in yesterday? None, thats how many. How many times did he take on the full back and get behind the defence? He never did. Jesus people, wake up! It's not just hard work that is applaudable, its having skill and a bit of ability.

[fensaddler]

I
Deeney had one of the best games I've seen him play, and looked one of the more effective players on the pitch, and probably the most effective in midfield. I could see the logic of the substitution, but it only added to the general decline as the second half progressed that we took Troy off.

I agree with that.

I wonder if Deeney might make a central midfielder, or even a full back. To me that seems a lot more likely than him becoming a decent striker or a winger.

The thought had crossed my mind. He is strong and effective in the tackle, tracks back well, has a good engine and is a real determined worker. Central midfield might suit him. In his career he has played either on the right of midfield (where apparently he started out) and was later converted to striker. I think at the higher level he might well make an effective central midfielder, from where he might still get a number of goals each season by running through from deep.

[WFC_Rob]

The fact is, we don't have enough strength in depth to achieve anything more than a mid table position at best.
Yesterday, we went from looking just as likely to nick a goal as Orient in a very tight game, to looking completely out of our depth in the space of about 5-10 minutes.
Just like how we went to pieces defensively last week when Hughes went off (being 5-1 up at that time made it less obvious), we completely collapsed when he went off yesterday. Smith was made to look like a pub footballer for their first goal to make things worse - not good enough.

I actually thought Ishmel gave a solid, mature performance alongside Jabo who was good as usual. We looked very short of ideas when Ricketts partnered Jabo up front though.
Roberts was quality before he was taken off. Unfortunately however, only being able to play for a maximum of 70 minutes counts for next to nothing.

There were some encouraging performances and some pure dross which ultimately cost us the game. If there were any certainties to come from yesterdays result and performance they are as follows:
We NEED a new centre half.
We NEED Mattis and Weston fit and playing.

[Cannock]

I cannot believe that some people think Deeney may make a central midfielder or full back. He struggles enough in his usual position. Yesterday, in my opinion, he didn't play well at all. He was just not as poor as usual. He ran around a bit, looked interested but has a complete lack of a first touch, no creativity and simply no positional awareness.

Never in a million years is he going to be a quality League One player - in any position.

[Neuromantic]

I cannot believe that some people think Deeney may make a central midfielder or full back. He struggles enough in his usual position. Yesterday, in my opinion, he didn't play well at all. He was just not as poor as usual. He ran around a bit, looked interested but has a complete lack of a first touch, no creativity and simply no positional awareness.

Never in a million years is he going to be a quality League One player - in any position.

Thank god! Thought I was on my own! :lol:

[philthesaddler]

I did say last week not to get over excited.

Southend were extremely poor in defence, and along came Leyton Orient, and made us look stupid.

How many shots did their keeper have to save all afternoon? 1, the Palmer free kick. Thats terrible, how the hell are you going to win a game at home if that is the sum total of your efforts on goal?

I feel a few factors contributed to this:

1. Poor performances: Deeney, probably his worst game for the club. He tries, but he simply doesn't have the quality. He looked OK in the right wing position last year under Money, but he's looking lost now. He doesnt get forward to join in with the attacks [like you think a striker playing right wing would...] and he's poor in possession.

Taundry, why is this lad ahead of Bradley? Taundry looks more of a right back to me, and he gave the ball away countless times yesterday, which really harmed our possession.

Smith, I feel for the lad, he really hasn't come on at all in the last 12 months, and that may be something to do with Richard Moneys defensive coaching abilities. Smith looks completely out of his depth. It's clear Roberts cant play 90 minutes so we have to get another defender in ASAP. The game on saturday was heading for a 0-0, Roberts and Gerrard were holding out, and we were offering nothing upfront. Cue Smith on and we fall apart.

2. Lack of ideas.

Jabo's got pace right? So why is our sole idea to pump the ball up to him, with his back to goal and let him fend off defenders? This tactic is only useful if you've got midfielders and wingers making runs past the striker holding the ball up, exploiting the gap left by the centre half on Jabo's back. Do we do this? No, in fact we are one of the worst sides I've ever seen for movement off the ball, it's why when we're bad, we're very bad. We could have played for 5 hours on saturday and we wouldnt have stretched their defence once.

Fair play to LO they came and did a job on us and we couldn't even muster a shot on target, we can have no complaints about the result, and if people could just open their eyes and see how poor Southend were, and how flattering the result was on us.

[Bernie]

Troy Deeney was rubbish yesterday. All he does is run around and slide tackle. Hasn't anyone noticed that his second touch is always a tackle?

Deeney Central Midfield? You must be having a laugh surely...? In midfield you need creativity, positional awareness, good passing and movement. Deeney has none of those attributes. Beggars belief to suggest Deeney should play in midfield.

How many crosses did he put in yesterday? None, thats how many. How many times did he take on the full back and get behind the defence? He never did. Jesus people, wake up! It's not just hard work that is applaudable, its having skill and a bit of ability.

I agree with you that Deeney did not put in any crosses and did not, and never has looked like a winger: just as he has never looked like a striker either.

However I strongly disagree with you about his overall performance. He was very effective at winning the ball, tackling and heading. He also used the ball very well. I wonder if Mullen has ever tried him at full back for the reserves in the way that Money used to play Ishmel there; it would make a lot more sense to me.

[seventies_saddler]

I have to say I agree with most of that, Phil

While I hate to be negative about the youngsters I am struggling to see what others are seeing in Troy Deeney at the moment and both he and Taundry seemed out of their depth and out of position in midfield on Saturday. Manny Smith is not the finished article yet and all three need more time to develop before too much is expected of them.

Jabo needs a partner to profit from his good hold up play - he's never going to be a prolific striker. Maybe Ricketts can fulfil this role if he can keep his head on straight.

We have a half decent group of players - but Mullen needs to improve team selection and tactics

[tinned]

[quote="WFC_Rob"]The fact is, we don't have enough strength in depth to achieve anything more than a mid table position at best.quote]

What do you mean???? Don't you know "we have a much larger playing budget this year, compared to last" (Copyright Registered Saddler 2008)? It must be true, the club told us :roll:

Quite how a greatly improved budget has resulted in us having a paper thin squad is beyond me, but hey, we're not supposed to question the club on anything.

My only other opinion on the match is that Mullen is so out of his depth he's drowning.

[Bernie]

Quite how a greatly improved budget has resulted in us having a paper thin squad is beyond me, but hey, we're not supposed to question the club on anything.

My only other opinion on the match is that Mullen is so out of his depth he's drowning.

I am not afraid to criticise any manager when I think he is getting things wrong, as for example I did not like Mullen telling the press what he had said to Gerrard - please Jimmy keep what you say to players private and when talking to the press always support them and talk them up, rather than point out their faults.

However I am a bit perplexed at how negative most of the general opinion about Mullen has become. I get the impression that some people made their minds about him very quickly and are only looking for mistakes. Every manager makes a lot of mistakes and this board is certainly a good place to discuss them - but Mullen had the near impossible task of finding eight good players to fill the gaps in a very threadbare squad, and even with a bigger budget (if he really did have one) it is no easy matter to bring quality players to Walsall.

We have got one glaring problem at the moment that Jimmy does not seem to acknowledge - we need another decent centre half. Apart from that I think he has made a pretty reasonable start and I have every hope that he will prove to be a good manager.

[4143]

Who was it who shouted "Feeder suck!" before the game?

[big baz 1]

Who was it who shouted "Feeder suck!" before the game?

Whoever did they are right