Brentford (a) - League - 3rd January 2005

[Stu]

Ian, Neil, couldn't agree more.

Here we are, 6 hours after the worst performance of the season and yet Osborn keeps being raised. I do respect what you say MMF, and I'm not talking solely about you, you know what your talking about and your open minded. But when people harp on about Osborn when he didn't even play and attempt to justify why they don't like him or how bad he is, it amazes me. It just convinces me more that we've fans who won't cut him even a bit of slack.

Sadly, I hate to say this as I said I wanted to give him till Xmas, I think Merson is not the man to take us forward.

He will keep us up, but thats more down to the teams below us than anything else. And this team should be not be 'stopping up' but challenging to go up.

[redalways]

The Diamond formation could work, but it is clearly not possible with this squad. Trouble is Merson knows no other way.

With Merson and two strikers, we need two orthodox full backs to provide a solid back four. Wright and Zigor can at best be described as wing backs, i.e dodgy defenders / poor wingers who can not cross properly. Mcshane should be sent back to Man U as he is too young and too small - he is a liability, although not as bad as Wright and Zigor

With the four in the middle of the park, someone such as Wrack or Standing has to break wide and provide an extra, pacey, attacking option. Sadly, the four play tip tap until they lose the ball. Mersons only options are to play wide to Wright or forward to the two strikers. Zigor seems to stay back far more this year, despite normally having Wrack to cover him.

Trouble today was that Taylor and Jorge was a pathetic choice up front. Roper and Mckinny on crutches would have been more of a threat. Inside the penalty box Jorge is non existent. Take away is party peice of chasing lost causes (and sometimes winning to be fair), his only contribution is to run with the ball until his rubber knees give way. He almost never fools any referee.

I dont think we will be dragged down to the relegation battle, but I said that last year. We have little chance of getting near the play offs. All we can hope is that the close season will see a clear out and a fresh start. Time and again opponents come to Bescot and make things happen by running hard at our defence, just as Fryatt did on the opening day to win a penalty. Sadly now, no one runs fast enough to win anything.

[Neil Ravenscroft]

But to play the diamond effectively, you need quick, extremely mobile, midfielders. So who is Merson supposed to be after? As he seems to live in the past (you know, the days when Standing was highly rated at Villa, rather than languishing in Bradford reserves), he seesm to want to bring in a 37 year old central midfielder (or will be by then) in the shape of Ian Taylor. Even two years ago, great, but next summer???????????

[Tim Wilkes]

Martin Allen spent most of the game bellowing '10' or 'Merson' to his players. They marked him, we had nothing else to offer, end of story.

If he is so easily marked out of the game, he has to go back to the bench and maybe come on for a 20 minute cameo if [usually when!] we are chasing a game.

I feel a bit sorry for Wright - I remember some useful performaces on the wing [West Ham away in the Coca Cola Cup spring to mind] but he is so obviously a fish out of water at right back that it is embarassing.

Must get some width from somewhere- Wrscky when fit?

[Pedagogue]

Neil, you have touched on one of the club's biggest problems in your comment about Standing, namely Merson's limited knowledge of the "scene" regarding players. He has stepped from the responsibility-free role of player to that of manager where he is competing with guys who have been doing the job for years and know the scene and the grapevine. We do not have a scouting set-up worthy of the name (one of my main gripes) but I thought Barlow was brought in to add his knowledge, experience and expertise to our rookie manager. He should be able to tell Merson who who might be available and be good enough to get us out of this division (in the upward direction!).

As you rightly say, Ian Taylor is not the answer and, unfortunately, Gary O'Neil is out of the question. However, we DO need players of O'Neil's style - young, fit, "box-to-box" with a "good engine" (to use current coaching parlance). That is the only way we can afford to carry the luxury that is Paul Merson. Very good players though they were in their heyday, Osborn and Kinsella are now "past it" and they can't play in the same team as Merson.

[Neil Ravenscroft]

And there is the bald choice - he must get some quality in midfield able to carry the passenger he is when defending (and that is not any of the central midfielders we have now - one at most is all we could carry - out of Standing, Broad, Kinsella, Osborn, Wrack), or he does the other obvious thing of finding a decent left winger, even if on loan, and abandoning this narrow 4 3 1 2, for a 4 4 2 without Merson, or a 4 4 1 1. My preference is for the latter, as I just don't see how, even next summer, we will be able to afford "players of O'Neil's style - young, fit, "box-to-box" with a "good engine" (to use current coaching parlance)".

[Stu]

I'm not so sure I agree with the references to Merson being a passenger when we defend, as in all fairness, that is covered by one of the strikers dropping back to defend which Jorge does. So we're not actually left short.

And before anyone says "But a striker shouldn't be back defending", I would wager that Merson can actually hold a ball up better than any of our current strikers now that Birch has gone.

When we hit a ball out of defence, Merse is the one man who can bring it down on his chest, get it into his feet and buy us a few seconds. Hence the reason Lee used to leave him up front, as he can buy time.

That's what Gary Birch used to do quite well.

4-4-1-1 would work well if we had a strong and powerful pacy man up front, like this South African is described as. And the type of player that Lee consistently went for at the beginning of last season, Akinbiyi, Bothroyd, Bent to name three.

But, you'd also need two fast wingers who could get forward, otherwise Merse would have no options when he gets the ball.

[Neil Ravenscroft]

You can add Asaba to the list from last season as well, Stu! We should be OK for the right wing, between Wrack, Wright, Herivelto, D Taylor (although I remain unconvinced - but, to be fair, Merson doesn't play him on the wing. By the way, why the sudden glut of right wingers?), but a left winger is an absolute necessity.

[YGA Saddler]

i agree with everyone else this season is over already.

start a fresh ready to be a promotion challenger next season

GK-

RDEF-
CDEF- EMBLEN
CDEF-BENNETT
LDEF-

RMID-
CMID- KINSELLA
CMID- IAN TAYLOR?
LMID-

STR- FRYATT
STR-

i think them are the only players we can build a team around next season and maybe fryatt and kinsella will start playing consistently with others around them.

[Nigel Brooks]

Interloping Bees fan here.

The one thing missing from the posts I've read is the tosser referee who was among the worst we have seen at Griffin Park this season.

Merson booked for diving, bollocks, he was clipped.

McShane not booked for what many thought was a charge on Alex Rhodes (I thought it was a hard, but fair shoulder to shoulder) but then booked for not moving back on the throw in.

The guy ruined an already poor game.

But Christ what happened to your midfield, did they go on the same extended holiday as our lot? Hoof and hope don't work anymore.

Once we had, quite rightly, marked merson out of the game, you had nothing to offer, which is great because we were bloody woeful.

Console yourselves with not having a £7M debt and just four months to find it before our former parasite chairman turns GP into a nice select development of 192 flats.

[Stu]

WFC2UK,

Keep Kinsella? Your kidding, he is robbing this club blind. He should be heads and shoulders above most at this level, we're yet to see it from him.

I find it hard to justify him getting in ahead of Osborn, and he is hardly having a great season by his own standards.

[Neil Ravenscroft]

You can keep a 37 year old Ian Taylor at Derby, thank you and do you honestly think Fryatt will still be here if we don't go up?

[Geordiesaddler]

Interloping Bee, join the interloping Donny, Huddersfield, Slough fans etc. etc. who have watched us once and managed to work out how to stop us playing. It really isn't hard is it?

[Magic Man Fan]

FFS! I only mentioned Osborn in response to Stu's point about the players heading for the tunnel without coming over to clap the travelling fans.

It was nothing to do with his form, especially as he didn't even play yesterday.

But if you'd read my above post you'll have realised that already.

[Stu]

That's sort of the point... What was the need to mention Osborn for in response to that? He wasn't the only player to walk off rather quickly down that tunnell at Slough.

It just seemed as if yet another excuse to have a dig at Osborn, sorry if I mis-interpreted that. Maybe you didn't mean that, but thats how it came across.

[Lichfield John]

I don't know if anybody else has done a half term piece yet.With having a baby in august,i haven't been as much as i would like so here goes:

Mckinney - Haven't seen much of him so can't comment - GET RID
Paston - Poor to start off with but got better.Doesn't boss his area enough - KEEP
Murphy - Started well.Lacks communication with his defenders.Needs to lose wieght.Dropped to many clangers - GET RID

Wright - Can't tackle,pass and no positional sense.Not suprising for a converted winger - GET RID
Bennett - Class act.Get him on a longer contract - KEEP
Roper - Having a poor season.To many freekicks given away in dangerous positions.Time is up i think.Overweight - GET RID
Emblen - Too slow for a centre half.Looks a little bit overweight.Best used as a sub - KEEP
Aranalde - Time is up me thinks for zigor.Maybe try him as a winger.Too many blunders - GET RID
Mcshane - Too small for a centre back,but looks a decent player.Needs to be a good run in the side,maybe at right back - KEEP

Wrack - Shocking this last few seasons.Never looked like repoducing the form he had under Graydon.Still warrants a place in the squad - KEEP
Osborn - Always reminds me of Tom Bennett.But worse.Has trouble passing forwards,weak in the tackle - GET RID
Kinsella - Very disappointing.Thought he would be a good signing.Hasn't scored as many as i thought he would.No passion to his play - GET RID
Standing - Getting better,not consistent enough at the moment.Gets forward alot.Scored some crackers so far - KEEP
Broad - Why we signed him is beyond me. - GET RID
Herivelto - Why is not starting matches.We need his pace and directness - KEEP
D Taylor - Still a bit raw but looks promising.Needs to be playing in a 442 formation.Needs to be sent out on loan - KEEP
Merson - Needs to change formation and put himself on the bench.Has been in reasonable form so far - KEEP

L Williams - Send him out on loan.Looks promising.Needs to cut out the tricks though - KEEP
Fryatt - I think it's time for him to be sold.His heart doesn't seem to be in it,calling off sick before a match at his age is disgraceful.He should want to be playing every day - GET RID
Leitao - Looks overweight.Confidence is shot to pieces.Wastes easy chances.Time's up - GET RID
Robinson - Needs to been playing with decent crossers.Useful in the air.Tidy on the ground.Get's caught offside to often.Seems to be the only one who can read Merson's passes - KEEP

Apologises if i've missed anybody out.No back biting please if you folks don't agree with what i've written.After all,everyone has their own opinions.

Unless Merson can clear some of the dead wood floating around the squad,our seasons probably over.The play offs are still reachable but realistically mid table is what we can achieve.

[tinned]

I would generally agree John, except Roper and Emblen. Emblen, IMHO, has been fantastic this season. You might as well give him MOTM before kick off most matches.

I hope I'm wrong but I think we've seen the best of Robinson. I know I'll get slated for negativity and whatever, but I just think he had a bit of a burst when he first signed and now we're sseing the real Robinson. He put's in the efoort though, so I won't be too critical. I've seen it so many times from new players at Walsall. They soon catch the "Walsall disease".

[Stu]

I agree with your take on Robinson Dave, he really doesn't impress. From what I've seen, he really isn't up to much.

Then again, the one thing I will say is that we are yet to create a chance for him when I've seen him play. So maybe he is one of those that isn't neccessarily a good player, but does take a chance when he gets it.

[Magic Man Fan]

I think you are both being a bit harsh on Robinson. He's far from the finished article but when he's had chances he's finished nearly all of them unlike Jorge who misses far too many.

Most of his goals have come from headers and in the last few games I haven't seen us put one decent cross onto his head or give him a decent chance on the floor (as you say Stu).

He wins headers and flick ons that Jorge doesn't, we just haven't got anyone sharp enough to read or run onto them, thats why I'd like to see him play alongside Fryatt.

It doesn't look pretty but at least he puts himself about a bit and puts defeners under pressure to force them into mistakes.

[Zippy]

There we go again having another pop at Jorge. Every opportunity you can.

[Magic Man Fan]

Just like you were with Birch. There's no difference...something you fail to realise.

Jorge misses far too many chances and if you disagree then I doubt there'll be very few backing you up.

Can't you just use that zip for its proper use? Another childish comment.

[Zippy]

Yes I whinged about Birch in a Birch debate. You started having a go at Jorge when Robinson was being discussed.

Thats the difference.

It's amazing that even now Birch has gone, you still bring him into the subject.

[Magic Man Fan]

Have you ever heard the word comparison? I was saying Robinson takes more chances and wins more flick ons than Jorge.

If you can find evidence on the contrary I'll be amazed.

Like I've said elsewhere, at least I use decent arguments in my post on the whole.

This board is getting so tiresome with the newcomers, unless they're hiding behind new user names since the board update. I see brum saddler no longer posts and you come from Birmingham Zippy. Same person?

PS - Funny you should talk about me mentioning Birch when you've just made a comment on another thread about him referring to him eating too many burgers at McDonalds. Hilarious, my sides are splitting, I love this schoolboy humour that has infested the board. What exactly has that comment to do with WFC or football?

[geoffwhiting]

We're fully entitled to have a pop at Jorge - most of this season he has been a liability up front - no-one else has had so many one-on-ones and ballsed them up so often, and no-one else has been in close vicinity to chances and failed to react to them.

He is yards too slow now and wastes a place in the side.

Love him, but unfortunately he's over the hill !

[Zippy]

Apologies MMF, I did'nt relaise that this board was invitation only.

What's wrong with throwing a bit of humour in every now and again, or is the board only there to moan, whinge and criticise.

I am relatively new to the board and have never used any other name.

The problem I think is that there are users on here that do not like to be disagreed with and think that what they say go's and it is there God given right to shout people down.

I must say that there are a lot on here who can join in with the banter and agree to disagree with each other. That's what makes the world go round.

Thank you for making me feel most welcome. I will have to think about using this facility again, would'nt like to upset anyone.

But then again, that's my opinion, oops, sorry forgot I'm not allowed one am I???????

[tinned]

You need to relax a little, Zippy, it's only a messageboard.

It's a bit rich, however, when you have a go at one poster for supposedly waging a vendetta against one player, when you quite clearly have waged one on another player. You can't pick and choose which players are allowed to receive criticism.

[Zippy]

Fair comment. What happens is someone slags a player off that you like, so then you take revenge by slating a player they obviously like. It happens a lot on here.

I can give it and take it like the next man. But some on here take it a bit too far.

[Magic Man Fan]

Zippy

I don't slag Jorge off to get at you. I slag him off because he's cack. He was always one of my favourite players up until he's stopped working hard which was last season to be honest.

I'm not going to be a hypocrite and give someone all my support just because they used to play well a long time ago, not when they don't deserve it.

[Independent View]

Having also spent good money to watch this game I have read all comments with interest.
My own view of the game was that the midfield did get overrun (which seems to be a common theme).
Watching the first half from the terraces it was easy to see the organisational problem with the 4-3-1-2 against a pretty basic 4-4-2. Kinsella kept close to Broad on the left and Standing was expected to cover the whole of the right side of the pitch against 2 Brentford midfield players - no wonder he went off - so would I !!!
Why could the coaching staff not see this - if Jorge was playing on the right (it was where he spent most of the first half) why did he not track back and help out ?? Wright had a winger to mark but Emblen, Bennett and Zigor only had one other forward to mark between them - again why could no-one on the coaching staff see what was happening and do something about it. My only thought is that one earlier post must be true - you can change the players but the system cannot be altered !!!!

Other general comments :-

Taylor - lightning quick, but only after the ball has been played. He would be far more effective starting from a wide position and running at people rather than making feeble attempts to slug it out with a six foot clumper. Surely he could be coached to make runs from deeper and run across the back line rather than standing still until he sees where the ball is going and giving the defenders several yards head start.

Bennett - no one has commented on the fact that he unnecessarily lumped the ball into touch as Murphy came to gather it. This error directly led to the goal.

Wright - naive defending. McShane looked more secure.

Merson - same criticism as Jorge - if he sees his midfield getting overrun (3 against 4 and sometimes 5) he has enough experience to drop deeper and help. Instead he stood in the centre of the park, hands on hips, watching it happen - what does that say ????

[Magic Man Fan]

Independant View - Can you please not come onto our board and talk sense.

Some people just won't understand you.