Torquay United (h) - League - 2nd April 2005

[ShropsSaddler]

I'm not particularly pro-Bonser Phil but perhaps we should give him the benefit of the doubt at this stage. When we lost to Slough, I think Bonser should have taken action, after the defeat at Colchester, Bonser should probably have taken action but now? Put yourself in his shoes -he made the late change last season and got roundly condemned for it in the end. So does he do the same again? For all we know (and I would hope this is the case), Mr Bonser has spent a sleepless night trying to decide whether he should do something now or not. I, along with plenty of others on the board, think something should be done and things certainly can't get any worse but then it's easy for us to say that on these boards with no consequences.

As I say, not a Bonser-apologist, just trying to put a balanced view so that we all might understand why we have to put up with this shambles for another few games yet.

[philthesaddler]

Yes i accept what your saying. Sacking Lee at a late stage is still fresh in his mind, and has probably influenced his decisions with Merson - however, any good manager will tell you that you mustnt let past events cloud your vision of the current situation.

Bonser has made a vow to Merson to give him the season.

It's been 4 weeks since Merson was quoted as saying he'd like to clear up his contract - nothing has happened since.

Now, given that - Everybody can see he's not going to be awarded a new contract. Bonser's not stupid, and sacking him would cost a lot of money. They made a decision to stick with him to the end of the season, no matter what the consequences - and that is where the problem lies; Money, bad decisions and sticking to their word are the over-riding factors in this situation. We can't afford to sack him. They've clearly made a mistake in appointing him, and to sack him would leave Bonser and co with egg on their faces, and they've been quoted several times that he'll be given to the end of the season.

These factors are more important than the fact he could well be dragging us down. The board would rather see us relegated rather than a) have egg on their faces b) cost a lot of money and c) break their word.

[Stu]

A poster on this board, don't know if he'll want me to say his name, asked Bill Jones if Merson was getting a new contract, Jones' response was "Jeff isn't stupid."

Don't know how true that is, but it was a poster on this board who asked the question and told me the answer.

I can't see Bonser giving him a contract. I did think he'd give him 6 months till Xmas, but I just can't see him being that stupid.

[ShropsSaddler]

Let's hope it is true Stu. And let's hope Bonser announces the fact as soon as we're safe. I have to admit that I haven't renewed my season ticket yet. I've watched Walsall for many years through some supposedly dire times in the 70s and 90s but nothing has taken away my passion for going to matches like this last season has. Let's get rid asap, let's make a positive appointment asap and let's get our enthusiasm back for next season when, under the right management and guidance and used at the right times, messrs Wright,Bennett, Taylor, Taylor, Standing, Fryatt,Williams and Atieno could make it very interesting

[Mike T.]

Well what a surprise? 4-4-2 formation, a right winger with pace and directness, disciplined defence, every player knowing their job, organised and playing with passion and pride and spirit. Yesterday ? No Engand under 17s on Wednesday night in terrible conditions and in front of 3,500 people including me and Liam.

Us - we had a centre half at right back, a right back in centre midfield (who didn't touch the ball for 70 mins), a centre half who already thinks he is in Australia, a 37year old on the right wing (at the start) who then switched to the left to replace somebody else masquerading as a footballer.

How we got a point is a mystery. An utter shambles and in my 42 years of watching I cannot remember a worse performance in the circumstances. However as Liam as just said at this time of year all that matters is the result!! Somehow we ended the day in a better position than we started cos Wrexham lost.

[Magic Man Fan]

What another shambles of a performance. But then I didn't expect anything else after 10 minutes after the way the team didn't react to the extra support from the fans.

I agree with Bristol and Shrops, our subs were probably the best players. Those who were arguing with me after I stuck up for Wright after Barnsley and have now seen him in his favoured wingers role will hopefully see that he does offer us something in that position. I think his first touch was to beat a man and put over a perfect cross to Leitao who in acres of space had the first touch of a Pub Team player and another easy chance was wasted by the Fat Funky Chicken Portuguese Man O Man.

I can't really add anything more to the above comments. There was no fight, passion, organisation, fitness, tactics, cohesion. I could add many more adjectives but you'll know them all already.

We are very fortunate that Wrexham lost or we would be right in the mire. Someone had just pointed out to me that Wrexham might appeal against their 10 points reduction because Cardiff signed two new players on deadline day even though they'd already applied for a loan from the PFA to pay their players wages. Its unlikely but a possiblilty and to be honest we don't deserve to stay up after the tripe we have seen this year.

It annoys me that some players come in for criticism. I know Emblen, Roper, Wrack etc haven't been good this season but they have been superb for us in the past and its no coincidence that they aren't playing well this season under their useless lump of a manager. Try not to get on their backs too much as we'll be able to judge some of them again next season when they are fit and playing under a manager who knows what they are doing.

[Stu]

Strangely enough, I bought a season ticket yesterday. I'd been talking to the old man about it, he came into the Saddlers Club with "will you have £230 this month" as he'd bought the season tickets, lol.

I think Bonser has to move very very quick. I've said before, but the transfer window makes things very different.

If the players return in say first week in July, that gives a new manager 6 weeks to assess the squad and make any signings before the season starts, and then just 8 weeks to make any signings before the window closes.

Ideally, you want the new manager done ASAP and the players brought back earlier than usual so he can see what he wants.

[philthesaddler]

Replies to two people;

MMF: Agree with everything you say, even about Wright. He made the difference when he came on, and was the one player to scare their defence and have them sprawling to tackle him. He does however need to work on the way he does past players, he still seems to confuse himself.

Stu: Ive bought a season ticket for £280 or whatever it was, and it pissed me off, because i have not enjoyed this season what so ever. I hope your Bill Jones story is true, as it agrees with what i said about Bonser not being stupid. Also, when Graydon got sacked, he'd got Lee lined up. Wasnt RG sacked on the Monday / Tuesday, with Lee being appointed on the Thursday? My point is I think Bonser will already be making enquiries. As you say, next season it gets harder [a further reason why Merson simply cannot be given a contract: he's struggled this season, and has used an extra 10 players that we didnt have going in to september] with the transfer window, and we need a manager who will work the bollocks of the players.

Bottom line is, i don't care about the result AS LONG as the players do there very best. I do not mind being beaten by a better side when we have simply been outplayed. We dont even compete at the moment, and that is the most annoying thing. We're not getting outplayed. We make these teams look good and organised and fit by being so bad, disorganised and unfit!

We need someone with the Attitude of Ian Dowie
the tacitcal nous of Jose Mourihno, Alex Ferguson and Arsène Wenger put together
We need someone with the discipline of Graeme Souness and Peter Reid

Any ideas?

[ToeJoe Jnr]

Why when we have not done it all season did we decide to play the long ball game yesterday? The time has come for Merse to pack his things and take the walk. However, there are a couple of people who can follow as well. Jorge, Emblen, Osborn, Wrack. The four experienced members of our squad and what have they offered us? I couldn't believe what I saw yesterday with Emblen and Roper. Torquy's CF was giving them a nightmare, so they bow their heads and don't organise themselves. Criminal from 2 experienced men. Osborn wasn't the worst player yesterday, but over the season hasn't done it for me, and as captain gives us zilch. When O'Connor was here and we were defending a corner, he was practically picking people up and putting them where they needed to be placed. When the chips are down I just don't see Osborn as the man who is going to get a team going. Wrack is second behind Merson for his rumblings in the press, and for me has not done much more than Merson all season on the pitch. Jorge, blimey the bloke is still living off his first season. We have the hardest working striker in the footballing world, shame he doesn't do what he is there to do, score goals.

I don't know whether we should change things know or not. I think the underlying reason is I just don't care at the moment. The 2nd half of this season I have been going to matches not for footballing reasons. Just to catch up with people, and vent my weeks anger at a usual torrid 90 minutes. Roll on next season.......without Merse.

[Phil_G]

I’ll sing myself to sleep
A song from the darkest hour
Secrets I can’t keep
Inside of the day
Swing from high to deep
Extremes of sweet and sour
Hope that God exists
I hope I pray

Drawn by the undertow
My life is out of control
I believe this wave will bear my weight
So let it flow

Oh sit down
Sit down next to me
Sit down, down, down, down, down
In sympathy

Now I’m relieved to hear
That you’ve been to some far out places
It’s hard to carry on
When you feel all alone
Now I’ve swung back down again
It’s worse than it was before
If I hadn’t seen such riches
I could live with being poor
Oh sit down
Sit down next to me
Sit down, down, down, down, down
In sympathy

Those who feel the breath of sadness
Sit down next to me
Those who find they’re touched by madness
Sit down next to me
Those who find themselves ridiculous
Sit down next to me
Love, in fear, in hate, in tears

[Guest]

Look at other Player Managers about ours it not one that installs a never say die attitude on the pitch so how the hell are we going to get it off the pitch.

Great player yes, but only when he wants to be. His attitude has rubbed off on the others and they are following suit.

Tinnion, Hessanthaler both did a player manger role and look at there impact on the pitch!!!!

Ronnie Moore for next season!!!

[Magic Man Fan]

ToeJoe - While I don't disagree with your comments about the four players you mention as I have said elsewhere if they are still here next season, then judge them under a different manager.

Osborn apart the players you mention were more than good enough for the division above and always had the right workrate and attitude. It is only now that under the awful training regime that they have slipped into poor states of fitness and attitude. Like I've said elswhere think of the term "lead by example". Well this year the players have certainly followed Merson's lead.

I don't think Osborn and Emblen will be here next season and while I have criticised Jorge for a long time I think he and Wrack will be here and I expect we will see players more like their old selves under a different manager.

They clearly have NO respect for their manager or they would perform to keep him in a job. They are more than capable they are just not motivated to perform.

[handsacre saddler]

I read these boards daily but never post (which is why i'm not registered) but just had to add my piece to this thread.

My old man saw Mick Kearns in the pub the other night and asked him what the hell is happening to our club. His reply...... We're in deep sh*t cos the majority of players are refusing to play for/with Merse anymore, cos theyre sick to death of him telling them constantly that he's the best player here and that they'll never be as good a player as him.

Also, was it just me, but did anyone else notice the 3/4 players (Emblen was one of them)trudge back up the pitch, heads bowed, immediately Matty scored whilst others celebrated. It was as if, like others here have mentioned, they wanted us to lose ?????

[KJC]

Well, I cant add much more to what has already been said.
What an absolute joke of a performance that was!
We were completely out done in midfield, Merson was obviously not fit and should not have started, Pead was totally non-existant til he went to full-back, Wrack was like a headless chicken for the majority of the game and poor Simon Osborn had to try to do it all himself - no suprise that he was completely overwhelmed - I felt so sorry for him.
There were very few pluses for me... the performances of Gerrard (v.solid) and Milo (aka Purple-Tweenie, he was quite solid too) spring to mind.
Fryatt and Wright once they came on - surely the must start next game?!
Cannot wait for the return to fitness and form of Kinsella. We need him so badly!

[derbysaddler]

I was throughly disgusted with yesterday, the term professional pride is not one that merson has heard of. How they expect the fans to rally round them after games like that is beyond me. There was no drive, passion , commitment or tactical no how displayed. I am utterly embrassed by the state of this team. Oakes cant kick, pead is not a footballer, Leitao has completely faded, its an absolute sham. The one bonus I took from yesterday was in Wrights performance, he played well when he came on.

Oh, and to the twerp sitting next to my old man, your constant racist abuse at black players is not welcome, Id like to see you walk up to Torquays centre forward and repeat what you were shouting. There is no place for backward scum like you at Walsall, so do everyone a favour and ****ing crawl back down that toilet bowl from which you appeared from, and dont forget to flush the chain afterwards.

Post edited (reluctantly) for language - Moderator

[YGA Saddler]

was it that bad derby? where do you sit there was one young kid in the purple lower aswell.

Bonser told me last week that merse will stay ehre if we stay up but would expect us to be at the other end of the table come xmas.

[Stu]

Bonser told me last week that merse will stay ehre if we stay up but would expect us to be at the other end of the table come xmas.

Hence my comments as of late that I have a sneaking suspicion that Merse will get a 6 month deal till Xmas.

That way, if things go tits up then we've potentially got time to get someone in and turn it around. If its going well, we can extend his deal. He then has no excuses, as he'll have had a full pre season with players that he wants and he signed all of them. He can then leave and use the transfer window to find another club.

I don't think Bonser should do that, but I do think he will do that.

[Magic Man Fan]

I'm not sure.

I think Bonser said that for the same reason Whalley said on WM that they want Merson to do well. They can't really say anything else in public or to the public can they and have to be seen to be showing support to him.

[fensaddler]

I've stood by Merson on the back of some (occasional) brilliant performances, and in the hope that it would all come good. But if in that game, with solid backing from the fans, and everything to play for, against a poor side, we weren't up for it, and looked poor even in comparison with Torquay, then it really is all up. Merson will go at the end of the season, I hope, if not before. We have the players, the club has the infrastructure, the fans will back the team, but it is no clear that in terms of tactics and leadership, we are not at the races. Hate to say it, because I'm very slow to jump on managers, but I've seen enough.

[Magic Man Fan]

And then there were three.

[derbysaddler]

was it that bad derby? where do you sit there was one young kid in the purple lower aswell.

Bonser told me last week that merse will stay ehre if we stay up but would expect us to be at the other end of the table come xmas.

theres just no need for it though is there 2uk, its pathetic, and i doubt very much the fool would say anything like that to the guys face. I was sitting right in the centre of upper purple, row K. I usually just buy my tickets on the day and its quite random wear I end up sitting, but its good because you get to have some interesting conversations with people around you, but that twerp was just a shameful embrassment. Thankfully he is a rare thing.

[Phil_G]

Just incase you haven't seen it, below is the current form table.
I urge you to take a second and look closely at it. Wrexham are obviously in a false position due to their deduction.
So we are bottom of the 3rd Division (in old money) form table, 4 points below Stockport County who are already relegated.
I would welcome someone, nay anyone (Ernest?), show the positive in this.

18 Swindon Town 8 2 3 3 10 15 -5 9

19 Hartlepool United 8 2 1 5 11 13 -2 7

20 Stockport County 8 2 0 6 11 17 -6 6

21 Peterborough United 8 1 2 5 8 18 -10 5

22 Torquay United 8 0 3 5 7 22 -15 3

23 Walsall 8 0 2 6 5 13 -8 2

24 Wrexham 8 2 3 3 14 15 -1 -1

[Guest Who]

Interesting point - I heard from a reliable source that there was interest in signing two of our players during the transfer window (from a number of better placed clubs than ours !!!!). One was Matt Fryatt, who didn't start but comes on and scores. Another was Michael Standing, who didn't start. Neither could be let go as they "were too valuable to lose" but not so valuable that we start them in the team.
What does that tell us ? Managers of better teams than us rate these players more highly than our management team and can see that they would be a real asset in a better side ..........................hmmmmmmmmmmmmm - no surprise there then !!!!!!!

[ToeJoe Jnr]

Fair point MMF, but what I would say is in my place of work I don't always get on with my manager oe feel motivated, but I still work hard, because I have pride in wanting to show myself in the best possible light. I am not for one minute saying that Merson should not take a lions share of the blame here, he deserves it. However, the experienced professionals should do better. If I was a "new" manager watching in the stands, they would be the first out so wouldn't get a look in under a different manager.

[Phil_G]

The problem is that Merson is currently making decisions about the future of all of the current squad, yet (hopefully) may not be in charge come next season.
He obviously has his favourites, like Joe 'invisible' Broad who he has just given a 2 year contract to, that a new manager has no option but to honour. He also has his 'they don't drink as much as my gang' outsiders that may find themselves unfairly unemployed. This erodes away at the paper thin wage budget we have, reducing any new guys options.
The likely scenario for the rest of the season is that we pick up a couple more points and survive by the skin of our teeth.
My choice would be to get rid of Merson now, giving the new guy a few competitive games to decide how many of the current squad he wants to keep.
However, we know that the fiscal fairy is whipsering in Jeff's ear to sit tight till the end of the season at least.

[Magic Man Fan]

Fair point MMF, but what I would say is in my place of work I don't always get on with my manager oe feel motivated, but I still work hard, because I have pride in wanting to show myself in the best possible light. I am not for one minute saying that Merson should not take a lions share of the blame here, he deserves it. However, the experienced professionals should do better. If I was a "new" manager watching in the stands, they would be the first out so wouldn't get a look in under a different manager.

I agree with that ToeJoe in that I would also work for professional pride even if my manager was bad. However there's a bad manager who doesn't lead by example and there's a manager that everything he says is demotivating. Unfortunately Merson is both!

Merson has come out in public and said that his players aren't good enough and judge him when they have gone. I have it on good authority that several players have fell out with Merson since that comment on WM after the Vale game. Even Halsall doesn't respect him and that is why he hasn't taken the coaching job full time because he wants to remain at the club and feels that if he takes the coaches job he will also get the sack when Merson does.

[London Saddler]

Outhought, outfought and outplayed. Torquay have conceded a gigantic 75 goals this season(only Stockport have conceded more in our division) and have been thrashed regularly this season. But they sud have won by 4 or 5. I fully expected us to lose and how we gained a point is pure daylight robbery

Oakes made his 3rd blunder in successive games and there is no point like Murphy in making saves if u r going to hand the opposition a goal a game due to blunders. He flapped at crosses and his kicking was a joke. Is he really going to b with us next season? Defensively we were shambles, again. Only awful finishing, bad luck and a few Oakes saves prevented Torquay in getting a cricket score. The Torquay centre forward ran Ropes and Emblem(looking mor like a pub player with every game) ragged. Gerrard defended well but his distibution consisted of aimless long balls. Perpetuni made Aranhalde look like Ashley Cole

I have rarely seen such a pathetic midfield. Wrack was his usual crap self. so was Osborn. Pead looks like a Sunday league player who has suddenly been thrust into the football league. And i won't even start on Merse. Sorry but up front, like in recent weeks i won't criticise the strikers. When there is no service from midfield, no pace, no wide men and they have to try and make due with ale house balls, what does one expect them to do?

This was a make or break game. If we won, we may have stayed up. Now i still expect us to go down. From our remaining games, i expect narrow defeeats away at Swindon and Peterboro. I think we will get thrashed away at Hartlepool and at home to Hull. And i predict a point at home to Stockport (a game no doubt which will b billed as the biggest of everyones career and another big cup final!). Whether we stay up is basically going to boil down to whether Wrexham or Torquay can get a run going or not

[Neil Ravenscroft]

Unfortunately, the last sentence is spot on.