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Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Reports and reaction from the 2007-08 season as Walsall finished 12th in League 1
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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:18 pm

I am very frustrated this evening. I am goign to wait til Friday before I make any further comment on the bigger picture.

However once again our stick thin squad failed to make an impact.

Dominated but had absolutely no cutting edge whatsoever. Deeney aint a striker or a winger, so what is he ? Tries 100% but he is not the answer. Like I said on way out, how many times in the last 15 games he has played or so has he been in scoring positions or had a shot for that matter? .....I think we know the answer.

we NEED to strenghten or else our season will degenerate and peeter out. We need a quality striker and a quality midfielder. We lacked ideas tonight unfortunately.

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:40 pm

Holmes seem to be clapping the crowd a bit too much at the end as though it was his last game for us. Hope this isn't the case because his set pieces and the crosses he gets in the box are superb.

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:47 pm

if ever a game illustrated our serious need for a experienced striker than that was it, grate game, but pathetic front line, not mooney but he can't do it alone or when every ones in the wrong place time after time, if ricketts is to stay we need 1, if not we need 2, and another attacking midfielder, less than 48 hours, walsall just sort it out. PS no more flaming excuses thank you.

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:49 pm

Definitley agree that we need a striker with legs and quality to play with Mooney and another decent centre midfielder

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:49 pm

sack wrote:if ever a game illustrated our serious need for a experienced striker than that was it, grate game, but pathetic front line, not mooney but he can't do it alone or when every ones in the wrong place time after time, if ricketts is to stay we need 1, if not we need 2, and another attacking midfielder, less than 48 hours, walsall just sort it out. PS no more flaming excuses thank you.



here here!!!

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:01 pm

Panic, panic, panic
Criticise whichever of Nicholls, Sonko or Deeney takes your fancy this week
Subtle dig at Bonser
Panic some more
Ignore the fact our stick-thin squad is a point off promotion

:roll: :roll:

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:14 pm

My thoughts

Clayton and the Defence did fine. I think they had two good one on ones down our right flank but that was when the game had opened up.

Sonko and Wrack did a plausable job in the middle. lacked ideas in the first half though and missed Bradley.

I thought Deeneys impact upon the game was great. He keeps getting better and clearly isn't there to make up the numbers. This lad is showing real ability. He was showing signs today, like taking beating (or trying to beat ) his man and his first touch although not always perfect was always inteligent and this is obviously the impact of being around a player like mooney who thinks two steps ahead. Troy gets 70% of it right. He is ten times the player i saw in Pre-Season.

Nicholls is showing why you can't rely to much on the kids. He is probably the least consistent of the bunch. Fades in and out of games. Does some splended work on and off the ball, but then at times can lack the conviction to have a real go. Lost count of the number of times today where putting his neck on the line would got him a chance. Still again he is just about holding his own.

Set Plays - lee holmes doesn't convince me at all. Its all a bit powder puff. Reminds of Bukran. Fox and Taundry whip those balls in with some real conviction. Most Holmes corners went in to the keepers arms. Many of his free kicks fail to beat the first man. On the other hand a very livley attacking player.

Ishmel. If ever we needed to know why we keep loaning left wingers or playing right footers i think today showed it. Silly lad.Its a gamble we take each game, i'm sure his ability will bag us at least another 5 or 6 points between now and May.

As for reinforcments it's hard to say. In the past we have seen players like Goodman, O'Connor, Harper etc come in and give us some real direction and ooOoopmph and lift. I think with the Fox money this will be on the cards.

Both a CM and CF would fit the bill although given the last two showings our midfield can at tiems look like a fart in a shtye fight.

For now nothings that wrong, it don't need mending just oiling and maybe a few fresh parts. I trust old dickie will fix it.

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:20 pm

Disappointed we didn't take the 3 points we certainly should have. A bit baffled why Deeney started on the right with Nicholls up front . both looked better when they changed positions.
Wrack had his best game for ages hardly wasted a pass pity he couldn't have capped a good performance with the headed chance he missed following a superb cross from Holmes.
Sonko did well in central midfield apart from one wayward shot like to see more of him in that role.
Boertein again looks real quality , Gerrard superb as ever .two points dropped to be honest i'll be very surprised if Orient make the play offs,

A word about Holmes a left winger from Derby can't recall his name is out injured for the rest of the season. i hope they don't call him back , he could play a big part for us in .

Above all else i reckon tonight showed perfectly why we need to sign Ricketts .

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:21 pm

We were by far the better team, but Orient did defend well and it did not work for us up front

What I do want to post is this:

Last year we won the league whilst being very average

Again tonight it made me think how much better we are as a team than last year - the starting eleven were very good, we had passing football, strong defending, great work both on and off the ball - everything but the goal we all wanted.

It is easy to say we need a goal scorer - we do lack depth in the squad, but on another night we would have had goals. A point is disappointing but has not done us too much harm as other results were kind.

I did not have any worries tonight when any of our players had the ball - it has been a long time since I have had faith in ALL eleven players on the pitch.

Nicolls and Deaney not only worked very hard but did cause Orient a lot of problems, Holmes is the winger I have dreamed that we would have, Sonko is brave and creative, Dann and Gerrard have to be the best center back partnership in this league, Mooney more than makes up for his lack of pace with his reading of the game, Wrack (although far from his best) does what is needed, Weston and Paul B are full backs that must be the envy of League one

Not a perfect night, but we have a very strong team

Keep the faith - we are never going to be spending big bucks with less than 5000 attending matches, but DD carved us a squad that can still make automatic promotion

And to see DDs pride in our players tonight - he is Walsall through-and-through!

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:23 pm

Oh - and I should add that Friat on loan until the end of the season would see us sitting pretty

Who knows :wink:

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:39 pm

Registered Saddler - Happy Clapper! Its been resurrected! :D :mrgreen: :wink:

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:40 pm

Got to agree with most of what has been said. I thought we had Orient in our pockets until the last 10 mins or so when the game opened up. Our defence were solid, although to be fair they didn't have much to do as Orient came for their point.

Deeney was class, for me he was Man of the Match. Really impressed with his effort and workrate and thought he showed some really intelligent touches. Nicholls also played well, but as said above, probably needed to be a bit more involved, especially second half. It's easy to say in hindsight, but Ishy can be disappointed with his performance and maybe we should have kept Troy on.

I think we just missed a bit of luck and extra omph in their box, the ball didn't quite drop for us tonight. Both Holmes and Deeney/Nicholls got a lot of crosses into the box, but I don't think we had enough people in and around to capitalise.

Can't be too disappointed to drop a couple of points, but we really do not have to fear any team in this league.

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:43 pm

sarcastically say, panic panic panic, then call our squad stick thin, unbelieveable some people just can't see the wood for the trees. i love our young players but how will they feel at the end of the season when they have put in all this effort, and got nowhere all for the lack of 2 or 3 players to help them.

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:52 pm

Desperately need to sign a proven striker on an undisclosed fee of course.

Thought tonight was a really good performance and some great football by our youngsters, who are getting better every week. We just lack another natural proven striker to play alongside Mooney.

I have a bad feeling that Ricketts ain't coming.

Sad about the crowd, lowest of the season when we had the chance of going second and 17 unbeaten in league. Low crowd did surprise me however as FTG lower seemed well filled. Looked more like 5500 to me.

Dancing Kev was on top form tonight, even managed a table top performance in the Bescot Bar at half time. :lol:

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:01 am

i cant understand people moaning at nicholls or deeney. they run their socks off, chase everything, the defenders are scared of them. they force so many corners and promising throw ins. the goals will come...

contrast that with ishy, who just couldnt be bothered. thats why he's not in the team. holmes seemed to find an extra gear tonight.

i'm gutted about the lost two points tonight, but reading some of your miserable posts on here has cheered me up. we're 4th! stop panicking. i think ricketts could be the difference between us tailing off and finishing 7th or 8th.. or pushing on and finishing in the top 6.

like dicky says tho, the window shuts for a week for us. we won't buy a striker, thats not the walsall way. but there are plenty of decent reserve strikers at the 50 or so clubs above us in this country. i seem to remember super don goodman arriving late on, just in time for that final push. and we all know what happened then 8)

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:01 am

Cheesebag wrote:I got the girls (And a bottle of White Zinfandal) :mrgreen: We are at Centreparcs in the lakes this weekend so I did a trade off for the match :D


Is that that yga rose stuff :mrgreen:

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:03 am

Asps wrote:Desperately need to sign a proven striker on an undisclosed fee of course.

Thought tonight was a really good performance and some great football by our youngsters, who are getting better every week. We just lack another natural proven striker to play alongside Mooney.

I have a bad feeling that Ricketts ain't coming.

Sad about the crowd, lowest of the season when we had the chance of going second and 17 unbeaten in league. Low crowd did surprise me however as FTG lower seemed well filled. Looked more like 5500 to me.

Dancing Kev was on top form tonight, even managed a table top performance in the Bescot Bar at half time. :lol:



Well, that could have been 'cos I was down there in the cheap seats :oops:

Or it could have seemed well filled due to the seats in the first 3 or 4 rows being a bit wet and peep's filling the rows further back? :?

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:22 am

Credit the few fans that bothered to turn up tonight, to See fourth placed Walsall, go unbeaten in 17 league games in the season after winning a championship. For those that carp and whinge about why we don't spend money on much needed players - players that EVERYONE agrees are needed to reach the Championship, look no further than the fact that only 4,400 turned up tonight. On that figure, and the one on saturday the Fox money is required to merely help keep the club in existance. So what was tonight's excuse?? One month and 3 days after Christmas? B and Q had a sale on? it was a night game and hence a "bit dark"?

I am happy that we continue to exist, and it would seem compete (currently above the likes of Leeds and Carlisle, level on points with Forest). We have no right to be where we are considering the pitiful, pathetic, embarrassing support we get. To be honest its an absolute joke to even consider us as a Championship club, yet we have contrived to achieve it twice in recent years and are knocking on the door again, something that the few of us that can be arsed should IMO be extremely proud of.

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:26 am

Geordiesaddler wrote:So what was tonight's excuse??


Work :cry:

It was a bit dark too, though.

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:31 am

sack wrote:sarcastically say, panic panic panic, then call our squad stick thin, unbelieveable some people just can't see the wood for the trees. i love our young players but how will they feel at the end of the season when they have put in all this effort, and got nowhere all for the lack of 2 or 3 players to help them.


"Stick thin" weren't my words.

To realise that we need Ricketts (or A N Other) striker to take some of the weight off Mooney, Deeney and Nicholls, all you need is a pair of eyes.

To keep faith with our championship-winning manager who has turned a squad that most had written off as relegated into genuine promotion contenders, to stay composed when we drop points at home, to understand that our record in the transfer market is excellent, to take at face value the comments that we are doing all we can to bring in the players we need, all you need is to be a supporter.

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:03 am

Geordiesaddler wrote:Credit the few fans that bothered to turn up tonight, to See fourth placed Walsall, go unbeaten in 17 league games in the season after winning a championship. For those that carp and whinge about why we don't spend money on much needed players - players that EVERYONE agrees are needed to reach the Championship, look no further than the fact that only 4,400 turned up tonight. On that figure, and the one on saturday the Fox money is required to merely help keep the club in existance. So what was tonight's excuse?? One month and 3 days after Christmas? B and Q had a sale on? it was a night game and hence a "bit dark"?

I am happy that we continue to exist, and it would seem compete (currently above the likes of Leeds and Carlisle, level on points with Forest). We have no right to be where we are considering the pitiful, pathetic, embarrassing support we get. To be honest its an absolute joke to even consider us as a Championship club, yet we have contrived to achieve it twice in recent years and are knocking on the door again, something that the few of us that can be arsed should IMO be extremely proud of.


You make some valid points Georgie and much I agree with. I think there is a vicious circle of poor marketing by the club, coupled by a perceived lack of ambition in that we haven't spent a penny in an actual transfer fee for years. This fuels the apathy of the floating fans and we end up with the pitiful, pathetic, embarrassing support.

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:12 am

I was there, and i haven't criticized DD or the players we do have, just, o i can't be bothered

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:44 am

We are a very good third division team, and extremely well run third division club. We have average third division support (in terms of numbers). Anything above mid-table third division is to me, punching above our weight. We tend to have about 4,500 fans that turn up for home games, sometimes a few more, sometimes a few less - I would just expect - quite honestly that this would be one of the "few more" periods irrespective of how much money we have spent or not spent. A sustained period of on the field success usually generates bigger crowds at "AN-OTHER FOOTBALL CLUB", even by a few percentage points - this is patently not the case with Walsall FC. I shudder to think what gates we would be getting if we were mid-table, but then I pull myself together and realise it would be 4,500.

As for marketing?? Blah! shuv it. Its clap trap. Where's people's passion and testosterone??

If you fancy a pint do you hum and har about what marketing has been performed?, No you just get your backside down the pub.

If your missus fancies a [post moderated - thoroughly inappropriate]

Marketing???, just more modern day gumph until one day, if your lucky, you'll get run over by a big bus with "WALSALL VERSUS LEYTON ORIENT" emblazened on the side", then what you going to do?? Go to heaven and complain for eternity about Bonser??

Marketing??

A BIT OF LIFE AND A PAIR OF TATERS, That's what people need, not bleeding marketing.

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:40 am

Geordiesaddler wrote:We are a very good third division team, and extremely well run third division club. We have average third division support (in terms of numbers). Anything above mid-table third division is to me, punching above our weight. We tend to have about 4,500 fans that turn up for home games, sometimes a few more, sometimes a few less - I would just expect - quite honestly that this would be one of the "few more" periods irrespective of how much money we have spent or not spent. A sustained period of on the field success usually generates bigger crowds at "AN-OTHER FOOTBALL CLUB", even by a few percentage points - this is patently not the case with Walsall FC. I shudder to think what gates we would be getting if we were mid-table, but then I pull myself together and realise it would be 4,500.

As for marketing?? Blah! shuv it. Its clap trap. Where's people's passion and testosterone??

If you fancy a pint do you hum and har about what marketing has been performed?, No you just get your backside down the pub.

If your missus fancies a [post moderated - thoroughly inappropriate]

Marketing???, just more modern day gumph until one day, if your lucky, you'll get run over by a big bus with "WALSALL VERSUS LEYTON ORIENT" emblazened on the side", then what you going to do?? Go to heaven and complain for eternity about Bonser??

Marketing??

A BIT OF LIFE AND A PAIR OF TATERS, That's what people need, not bleeding marketing.


With all due respect (and I appreciate your posts 99% of the time, as well as your passion), your marketing comments above are absolute tat.

If all we want is for Walsall to survive and bob about between League 1 and League 2 then you're perfectly correct. Should we not aspire to better things though? Maybe not. Let's all queue up outside Lidl for a bit of a life and a pair of taters. :roll:

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:28 am


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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:43 am

One of the main arguments given is times are hard after Christmas so let's look back to previous attendances on or around this date.

Date Competition Opposition Att Season League Av Difference
Tuesday 29/01/02 Championship Wimbledon 5,388 6832 -1444
Saturday 25/01/03 FA Cup 4 (Championship) Wimbledon 6,693 6978 -285
Saturday 17/01/04 Championship Coventry 8,264 7853 +411
Saturday 29/01/05 League 1 Huddersfield 5,727 6108 -381
Tuesday 17/01/06 FA Cup 3 R (League 1) Barnsley 4,074 5392 -1318
Saturday 27/01/07 League 2 Boston 5,058 5716 -658
Tuesday 29/01/08 League 1 Leyton Orient 4,643 5855* -1212

*average to date

Hardly the most scientific I admit, but a trend appears to be emerging for lower than average attendance for home games later in January. The opposition/competition obviously affect the results Coventry being a classic case in point.

Interestingly our average is above last seasons though it has been boosted by the Leeds and Forest games, in particular as well as the last time we were at this level (admittedly a relegation season) and we are closing in on the first season outside of the Championship season where I imagine we managed to retain a decent number of season ticket holders from the Championship.

For those of you wondering about Sir Ray's two promotion seasons the averages were 5458 in 98/99 and 5632 in 00/01 so maybe the picture isn't as bleak as bleak as is being painted.

As to marketing I tend to agree with the above, if Joe Punter doesn't have a pound in his pocket to pay for his dinner he is hardly going to fork out for football on a Tuesday night whatever the price. As economists might say his elasticity to demand is somewhat in-elastic (i.e. he'll pay 50 quid in the club shop to secure a ticket to see his team at Man United - provided he has the 50 quid in the first place of course).

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:02 am

Exile you miss my point entirely.

I'm not talking about atracting new supporters, or taking the message of Walsall FC to the vast, apathetic, unconverted local populus. I'm talking about 5 or 6 hundred regular fans who are already converted - as they used to turn up under the likes of Merson - turning up again. Even by the standards of earlier this season the last two home gates have been poor.
Whilst the club are not the greatest marketeers, they do do their bit to attract families and in terms of value for money and facilities we are lightyears ahead of many clubs in this league, try paying £22,50 to sit at The Withdean.

If we honsetly now live in a world where "marketing" is a more potent motivating force to get bums on seats at football than is success on the pitch then what a sad world it is.

I see excuse after excuse peddled on here for our pathetic support, What exactly did Doncaster Rovers do last night to get 6.5K? Run a successful ad campaign for the oh so attractive fixture against Hartlepools which followed their 4-0 thrashing in the last home match?? I suppose Doncaster is a more afluant town than Walsall is it? I suppose they don't have bigger clubs on their doorstep? I suppose Christmas happened months ago in Doncaster? Maybe it was warmer, less dark etc. etc. Maybe their new ground is right in the town centre and superbly communicatd by public transport (ha ha ha!)

Marketing?? what about passion, loyalty, fire in the belly?? Or shall we wait for the goverment and the ad men to tell us when to be excited?

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:13 am

McSaddler wrote:One of the main arguments given is times are hard after Christmas so let's look back to previous attendances on or around this date.

Date Competition Opposition Att Season League Av Difference
Tuesday 29/01/02 Championship Wimbledon 5,388 6832 -1444
Saturday 25/01/03 FA Cup 4 (Championship) Wimbledon 6,693 6978 -285
Saturday 17/01/04 Championship Coventry 8,264 7853 +411
Saturday 29/01/05 League 1 Huddersfield 5,727 6108 -381
Tuesday 17/01/06 FA Cup 3 R (League 1) Barnsley 4,074 5392 -1318
Saturday 27/01/07 League 2 Boston 5,058 5716 -658
Tuesday 29/01/08 League 1 Leyton Orient 4,643 5855* -1212

*average to date

Hardly the most scientific I admit, but a trend appears to be emerging for lower than average attendance for home games later in January. The opposition/competition obviously affect the results Coventry being a classic case in point.

Interestingly our average is above last seasons though it has been boosted by the Leeds and Forest games, in particular as well as the last time we were at this level (admittedly a relegation season) and we are closing in on the first season outside of the Championship season where I imagine we managed to retain a decent number of season ticket holders from the Championship.

For those of you wondering about Sir Ray's two promotion seasons the averages were 5458 in 98/99 and 5632 in 00/01 so maybe the picture isn't as bleak as bleak as is being painted.

As to marketing I tend to agree with the above, if Joe Punter doesn't have a pound in his pocket to pay for his dinner he is hardly going to fork out for football on a Tuesday night whatever the price. As economists might say his elasticity to demand is somewhat in-elastic (i.e. he'll pay 50 quid in the club shop to secure a ticket to see his team at Man United - provided he has the 50 quid in the first place of course).


I know this slightly defeats the point of an average, but I think that if you take the Leeds game out of the equation (as they are a bit of a freak in the lower leagues) then our average for the season goes down by about 350 (5000 extra fans divided by 14(?) matches). That makes it 5500, which is less than last season and about the same as we managed when getting relegated and playing some of the direst football I've ever seen under Merson (and when getting promoted under Graydon).

The season that stands out in this division is the first one after we came down the second time. We averaged over 6000 that season despite being largely mired in mid-table mediocroty (followed by a brief flirtation with relegation). So, we clearly did attract new fans while we were in the Championship, who were prepared to stick by us even after relegation. But, for one reason or another, we seem to have lost every single one of them in the years since (unless we're playing Leeds). I think these are the fans that Geordie is talking about (although I don't agree with his critique on marketing - we need to attract other fans too, in addition to these "lost" ones).

As for Joe Punter's pound in his pocket, I don't think we've yet reached the time when the vast majority of people in Walsall can't afford to pay for their dinners, so I'm not sure that the general economic situation (which isn't that bad yet, even if it may get worse before it gets better) can be a (major) factor.
Last edited by Plastic Hawk on Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:35 am

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't we do a deal on season tickets the season after we went down from the Championship. Might explain some of the extra bums on seats and dare I whisper it the "Merson" effect.

Going back to the point on attendances, my instinct without looking at the numbers in details is that the higher Championship averages are mainly the result of higher away attendances.

This season is probably most comparable to the first time we went up under Graydon a season where Stoke and Man City replace Leeds and Forest as having excellent away support (not to mention Fulham) we are currently running above that season's average so amongst all the doom and gloom maybe we are doing as well as is to be expected on the attendance front.

No doubt the budget is set in such a way as to anticipate a slump in attendance figures in Jan, if not it should be.

McSaddler
 
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Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:42 pm

Re: Leyton Orient (H) League 1 Tuesday 29/1/08.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:43 am

....also I was eluding to Joe Punter's situation every late January not just this one in "credit crunch" times.

A lot of people paid monthly are paid in the week leading up to Christmas, then follows the excesses of the Christmas, New Year and Sales season and a six weeks before the next pay cheque can lead to a cash flow problem by the end of the month.

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