Millwall (A) F A Cup 3rd Round Replay Tuesday 15/1/08

[belgiansaddler]

DD appears to be saying as much in the E and S, that we need to get a a couple of experienced players in

[Plastic Hawk]

We need strikers and still another midfielder if we are going to get play offs.

Ild love us to get there but realisticly we are too shallow in squad depth.

Cheery old soul tonight aren't you?

If you hadn't noticed Mooney and Ricketts were missing. It's unfortunate but we only need one of those fit to play alongside Deeney or Nicholls to give us that extra edge.

Why do we need a midfielder? Wrack and Bradley have been playing well, we created several chances again tonight and Dobson is now fit again, Boertien is fit allowing Taundry to play in midfield also.

Anyone who says the squad lacks depth are the same people saying it lacked depth in August/September before the kids started proving themselves.

Whilst another striker, midfielder etc would be welcome they are not crucial. If someone gets injured then we can get someone on loan when needed like we did when we strengthened with Harper and Benjamin.

Of course we need another experienced striker.
You cant expect someone of Mooneys age to stay injury free and sharp all season.

Assuming that you're saying that we need another striker as well as Mooney, Ricketts and the two kids here, then whether or not we need another experienced striker probably depends on what our number one priority for this season is.

If it's to do everything that we can to give ourselves the best possible shot of going up this season (knowing that isn't guaranteed however hard we try) then I reckon that another striker would be high on the list. As you say, Mooney's unlikely to be fit all season and we don't want to be relying on two young kids to get the goals to fire us into the top two (or even to win play-off matches). In that scenario setting back Deeney and Nicholl's development by a few months is a price that we'd have to pay - especially as neither of them are likely to be up to Championship football next season.

However, if this season's main aim is to have a crack at reaching the play-offs, but make sure that the team's developed to be as strong as possible ready for an all-out assault on automatic promotion next season then I think we'd gain far more by holding fire on the extra striker (at least until deadline day when the situation with regards to promotion will be clearer) and letting Nicholls and Deeney play whenever either Mooney or Ricketts are unavailable. Yes, we'll probably sacrifice a few points this season (but maybe not as many as you might think), but they'll be capable of making a much bigger contribution next year. In that scenario we'd also have more cash left over to bring the right players in in the summer.

I suspect that the second of those two scenarios is closer to what DD and JB plan. While we'd obviously want to finish as high up the table as possible and would take promotion like a shot if it came, I can't see them wanting to gamble the future of some of our younger players for a short-term fix which may or may not work - even with a top class striker I think it'd be about 80-20 against us making automatic promotion and I suspect we'll make the play-offs without one (just - maybe 65-35 in favour on that one), so you'd be looking to bring in a high-earning striker for the sake of three games in May.

(If we don't count Ricketts then we do need another experienced striker as Mooney, Nicholls and Deeney probably won't be enough. But I kind of thought that was so blindingly obvious that you must have been counting MR as well as those three.)

[philthesaddler]

I think it's essential we strengthen in midfield and possibly up front (assuming Ricketts is here for the season).

I'm not being negative I just think the squad is starting to creak a bit with tiredness. Also we're asking a lot of youngsters to play a lot of games. They look the business, they really do, but to ask them to play 3 parts of a season AND get us into a play-off berth is asking a little bit too much this season.

AS I say, I'm not being negative, I just believe in putting right problems before they get too much of an issue.

But Dave, you know what will happen, we will strenghten in the areas suggested that we say we need strengthening in, then history will magically be changed to read that there never was an issue!!

[Plastic Hawk]

I do think we need another central midfielder though. And some loans all over the pitch - even at centre back given the problems we had at the end of last season - come deadline day won't do any harm if we are still in contention for the play-offs (as I expect us to be).

[Plastic Hawk]

I think it's essential we strengthen in midfield and possibly up front (assuming Ricketts is here for the season).

I'm not being negative I just think the squad is starting to creak a bit with tiredness. Also we're asking a lot of youngsters to play a lot of games. They look the business, they really do, but to ask them to play 3 parts of a season AND get us into a play-off berth is asking a little bit too much this season.

AS I say, I'm not being negative, I just believe in putting right problems before they get too much of an issue.

But Dave, you know what will happen, we will strenghten in the areas suggested that we say we need strengthening in, then history will magically be changed to read that there never was an issue!!

Or to suggest that the changes were only made because DD reads this board and gleans important insights from it that neither he nor his coaching staff had thought of before - depending which side of the fence you happen to sit on... :roll: :roll:

[philthesaddler]

I think it's essential we strengthen in midfield and possibly up front (assuming Ricketts is here for the season).

I'm not being negative I just think the squad is starting to creak a bit with tiredness. Also we're asking a lot of youngsters to play a lot of games. They look the business, they really do, but to ask them to play 3 parts of a season AND get us into a play-off berth is asking a little bit too much this season.

AS I say, I'm not being negative, I just believe in putting right problems before they get too much of an issue.

But Dave, you know what will happen, we will strenghten in the areas suggested that we say we need strengthening in, then history will magically be changed to read that there never was an issue!!

Or to suggest that the changes were only made because DD reads this board and gleans important insights from it that neither he nor his coaching staff had thought of before - depending which side of the fence you happen to sit on... :roll: :roll:

I don't think anyone has ever suggested Dicky reads this board, as if he would!

[Plastic Hawk]

I think it's essential we strengthen in midfield and possibly up front (assuming Ricketts is here for the season).

I'm not being negative I just think the squad is starting to creak a bit with tiredness. Also we're asking a lot of youngsters to play a lot of games. They look the business, they really do, but to ask them to play 3 parts of a season AND get us into a play-off berth is asking a little bit too much this season.

AS I say, I'm not being negative, I just believe in putting right problems before they get too much of an issue.

But Dave, you know what will happen, we will strenghten in the areas suggested that we say we need strengthening in, then history will magically be changed to read that there never was an issue!!

Or to suggest that the changes were only made because DD reads this board and gleans important insights from it that neither he nor his coaching staff had thought of before - depending which side of the fence you happen to sit on... :roll: :roll:

I don't think anyone has ever suggested Dicky reads this board, as if he would!

I didn't think we were in any doubt that he might cast his eyes over it once in a while? :lol: :wink: :wink:

Honestly, though, so long as we do strengthen in the areas that we need strengthening in then it doesn't really matter how anyone (from either side of the fence) attempts to rewrite history. If the bottom line is that we're playing in the Championship next season (and/or the season afterwards) then we'll all be delighted and the message board arguments will just be an entertaining diversion.

[tinned]

I think it's essential we strengthen in midfield and possibly up front (assuming Ricketts is here for the season).

I'm not being negative I just think the squad is starting to creak a bit with tiredness. Also we're asking a lot of youngsters to play a lot of games. They look the business, they really do, but to ask them to play 3 parts of a season AND get us into a play-off berth is asking a little bit too much this season.

AS I say, I'm not being negative, I just believe in putting right problems before they get too much of an issue.

But Dave, you know what will happen, we will strenghten in the areas suggested that we say we need strengthening in, then history will magically be changed to read that there never was an issue!!

Was there a subtle clue in there somewhere? :lol:

[tinned]

PH, I have never said DD reads our thoughts and forms his opinions from them. I have just, quite rightly, pointed out that this season and last DD has come to the same conclusions some of were pointing out 2 or 3 months previously.

[King Crimson]

PH, I have never said DD reads our thoughts and forms his opinions from them. I have just, quite rightly, pointed out that this season and last DD has come to the same conclusions some of were pointing out 2 or 3 months previously.

I know where you're coming from, tinned - and I agree to a great extent that there is a marked difference between the team at the start of the season and now, and a similarity between much of the criticism and the solutions found (need for an assistant, Sonner is cack etc.).

Ditto last season.

BUT, all we know is when DD acted to change things, not when he realised changes were required. He may have 'come to the same conclusions' at the same time as you (or even earlier), but - for whatever reason - was unable to find or impliment a solution.

Just a thought. :?

[Plastic Hawk]

PH, I have never said DD reads our thoughts and forms his opinions from them. I have just, quite rightly, pointed out that this season and last DD has come to the same conclusions some of were pointing out 2 or 3 months previously.

I was thinking of one poster in particular who likes to claim that DD changed things around last season in response to criticism from that particular poster (and others who agree with him) and that without his input we wouldn't have gone up - and it isn't you (I think everyone knows who I mean).

I think everyone had come to the same conclusions about where we needed strengthening both this season and last season. The difference is that some (and again I'm not accusing you of this) were more hysterical about it than others. We had (fairly minor) problems last season, more (and larger) problems at the start of this season and further (again quite small) problems now. I don't think anyone's denying that and I'm sure DD is aware of them and working to fix them. He's just not going to come out and micro-manage his squad in the media.

Also, there's going to be an inevitable delay between DD identifying problems (which might happen at around the same time or even before it happens on here) and when he's actually able to fix it. For example, he's been talking on and off about getting a new midfielder in since Mattis got injured, he just couldn't identify one and then the loan window shut.

[Registered Saddler]

PH, I have never said DD reads our thoughts and forms his opinions from them. I have just, quite rightly, pointed out that this season and last DD has come to the same conclusions some of were pointing out 2 or 3 months previously.

Who said we should pair Bradley and Wrack in central midfield?
Who said we would sign Michael Ricketts?
Who said Rhys Weston, given time, would be an excellent right-back?
Who said a return to the defensive (read, negative) football of last season would see us start to pick up points?
Who said Alex Nicholls was returning to his form of two years ago?
Who said 35-year-old League Two journeyman Tommy Mooney would become one of, if not the, most influential player?

These are the key conclusions I would reach from having watched us develop this season. I would be delighted if one of the message board sages who are 2-3 months ahead of Dickie Dosh could point me in the direction of their posts which predicted these huge steps forward.

[Plastic Hawk]

PH, I have never said DD reads our thoughts and forms his opinions from them. I have just, quite rightly, pointed out that this season and last DD has come to the same conclusions some of were pointing out 2 or 3 months previously.

Who said we should pair Bradley and Wrack in central midfield?
Who said we would sign Michael Ricketts?
Who said Rhys Weston, given time, would be an excellent right-back?
Who said a return to the defensive (read, negative) football of last season would see us start to pick up points?
Who said Alex Nicholls was returning to his form of two years ago?
Who said 35-year-old League Two journeyman Tommy Mooney would become one of, if not the, most influential player?

These are the key conclusions I would reach from having watched us develop this season. I would be delighted if one of the message board sages who are 2-3 months ahead of Dickie Dosh could point me in the direction of their posts which predicted these huge steps forward.

I know one person who's going to claim to have predicted the benefits of all of those changes - and he's not someone who's usually in the "negative" camp.

[Registered Saddler]

Precisely

[Plastic Hawk]

Precisely

I'm not saying that he's right though, just that he's going to claim to have been! :wink: :wink: :lol:

[King Crimson]

Precisely

I'm not saying that he's right though, just that he's going to claim to have been! :wink: :wink: :lol:

Is it Paul Daniels, Tone? :wink:

[Plastic Hawk]

Precisely

I'm not saying that he's right though, just that he's going to claim to have been! :wink: :wink: :lol:

Is it Paul Daniels, Tone? :wink:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You're very, very warm there! :wink:

[We-ARE-Walsall]

To be fair, it does look like a list of quotes from him earlier in the season, when a lot were ready to jump off a bridge :D

Well done for boosting his over inflated ego a little further :D

[Registered Saddler]

To be fair, it does look like a list of quotes from him earlier in the season, when a lot were ready to jump off a bridge :D

Well done for boosting his over inflated ego a little further :D

That wasn't what I intended! But I am making a serious point that the excellent job that DD is doing is constantly being undermined by people on here claiming that all he has done is implement changes that many had identified months in advance. And not only that, but their ludicrous pessimism was justified because of their outrageous foresight (which, strangely, doesn't stretch to being able to predict DD's ability to make said changes). It seems a bizarrely entrenched viewpoint to take.

I would contend that not only has DD combatted genuine problems that were identified by some fans (predominantly, getting rid of Butler and Sonner) but has also done much, much more besides. The congratulation should come with no qualification or provisos.

[King Crimson]

To be fair, it does look like a list of quotes from him earlier in the season, when a lot were ready to jump off a bridge :D

Well done for boosting his over inflated ego a little further :D

That wasn't what I intended! But I am making a serious point that the excellent job that DD is doing is constantly being undermined by people on here claiming that all he has done is implement changes that many had identified months in advance. And not only that, but their ludicrous pessimism was justified because of their outrageous foresight (which, strangely, doesn't stretch to being able to predict DD's ability to make said changes). It seems a bizarrely entrenched viewpoint to take.

I would contend that not only has DD combatted genuine problems that were identified by some fans (predominantly, getting rid of Butler and Sonner) but has also done much, much more besides. The congratulation should come with no qualification or provisos.

I'd agree with all that, if our recently success wasn't clearly all down to Jim Mullin.

:D

[We-ARE-Walsall]

To be fair, it does look like a list of quotes from him earlier in the season, when a lot were ready to jump off a bridge :D

Well done for boosting his over inflated ego a little further :D

That wasn't what I intended! But I am making a serious point that the excellent job that DD is doing is constantly being undermined by people on here claiming that all he has done is implement changes that many had identified months in advance. And not only that, but their ludicrous pessimism was justified because of their outrageous foresight (which, strangely, doesn't stretch to being able to predict DD's ability to make said changes). It seems a bizarrely entrenched viewpoint to take.

I would contend that not only has DD combatted genuine problems that were identified by some fans (predominantly, getting rid of Butler and Sonner) but has also done much, much more besides. The congratulation should come with no qualification or provisos.

Of course you are right. He see's things we don't see, in training. The problems we see, he will know about too. These problems take time to iron out. If what we read is correct, he wasn't fussed about keeping Butler at the start of the season, but his move broke down, as did some of his intended targets, one of which was Rickett's I believe.

I'm not sure he ever intended to use our younger players so much, it was a case of having to, while on the look out for more players he felt would make the team better, as it happened, they have grabbed their chance with both hands, and now he has a hard job on his hands leaving them out.

At the start of the season, most people were in agreement, that a good season would be to hold our own, and blood some of the youth. We have got to a point now where that expectation has raised, and most of the credit for that has to go to Richard Money.

[Plastic Hawk]

To be fair, it does look like a list of quotes from him earlier in the season, when a lot were ready to jump off a bridge :D

Well done for boosting his over inflated ego a little further :D

That wasn't what I intended! But I am making a serious point that the excellent job that DD is doing is constantly being undermined by people on here claiming that all he has done is implement changes that many had identified months in advance. And not only that, but their ludicrous pessimism was justified because of their outrageous foresight (which, strangely, doesn't stretch to being able to predict DD's ability to make said changes). It seems a bizarrely entrenched viewpoint to take.

I would contend that not only has DD combatted genuine problems that were identified by some fans (predominantly, getting rid of Butler and Sonner) but has also done much, much more besides. The congratulation should come with no qualification or provisos.

Of course you are right. He see's things we don't see, in training. The problems we see, he will know about too. These problems take time to iron out. If what we read is correct, he wasn't fussed about keeping Butler at the start of the season, but his move broke down, as did some of his intended targets, one of which was Rickett's I believe.

I'm not sure he ever intended to use our younger players so much, it was a case of having to, while on the look out for more players he felt would make the team better, as it happened, they have grabbed their chance with both hands, and now he has a hard job on his hands leaving them out.

At the start of the season, most people were in agreement, that a good season would be to hold our own, and blood some of the youth. We have got to a point now where that expectation has raised, and most of the credit for that has to go to Richard Money.

I wonder if we're at a point where the expectation's been raised too far for our own good. It was taken for granted at the start of the season that this would be a season for consolidation before a big push for promotion next season. But in the wake of the recent good run (which I wouldn't swap), the growing clamour for several new signings to push us towards an unlikely automatic promotion spot (and I think we'll be in or around the play-offs with the current squad anyway - say 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th) risks taking the youngsters out of the starting line-up and stifling their development. Also, the new signings will cost money that could otherwise be invested in putting together a much stronger (and deeper) squad for next season. Both of these factors will weaken us for the season when we were all hoping to really go for promotion.

As I see it, a big push this season might see us come, say, 3rd or 4th and then 3rd or 4th again next season (with a similar squad), leaving us at the mercy of the play-offs. On the other hand, just seeing what unfolds with the current squad (in which I count Ricketts) plus one extra and a few deadline day signings (and, remember they're the players who've got us to where we are) could get us 6th or 7th this season and then 1st or 2nd next season (and promoted with no need for the play-off lottery) with more reinforcements than would be possible otherwise.

[We-ARE-Walsall]

To an extent I agree with you, but I also see it like this.

You have to take your chances when they come around, and promotion is a real possibility this season. It happened in Graydons first season, I don't think promotion was ever thought about at the start of that season by any one with in the club.

If you fail to take these chances, who knows what will happen next season, it is all well and good saying we are going to push for promotion next season, but things often don't turn out how you expect. How many of our top players will be here next season ? Will Richard Money be here next season ? We don't know for certain. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that if we don't go up this season, next season could be a relegation battle. Unlikely but hopefully you see the point I am trying to make.

I honestly think we will make the play offs this season. The signing of Ricketts is important, unless they have someone else up their sleeve, but quality like that isn't easy to get to a 3rd division club. I just don't see who will take sixth place off us. We are such a hard team to beat these days. I wouldn't take it as a massive slap in the face if we didn't make it though.

Automatic promotion is only possible if we start turning some of the home draws in to wins, what it will take to make that happen is another question :D

[Sadders]

We need a centre, and central midfielder and some-one from a lower league say mr stuart fleetwood, to back mooney ricektts and nicholls up, i dont really see deeney as a striker.

[Duke]

To an extent I agree with you, but I also see it like this.

You have to take your chances when they come around, and promotion is a real possibility this season. It happened in Graydons first season, I don't think promotion was ever thought about at the start of that season by any one with in the club.

If you fail to take these chances, who knows what will happen next season, it is all well and good saying we are going to push for promotion next season, but things often don't turn out how you expect. How many of our top players will be here next season ? Will Richard Money be here next season ? We don't know for certain. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that if we don't go up this season, next season could be a relegation battle. Unlikely but hopefully you see the point I am trying to make.

I honestly think we will make the play offs this season. The signing of Ricketts is important, unless they have someone else up their sleeve, but quality like that isn't easy to get to a 3rd division club. I just don't see who will take sixth place off us. We are such a hard team to beat these days. I wouldn't take it as a massive slap in the face if we didn't make it though.

Automatic promotion is only possible if we start turning some of the home draws in to wins, what it will take to make that happen is another question :D

spot on , we have to take our chance now .

[WFCNIL]

We need a centre, and central midfielder and some-one from a lower league say mr stuart fleetwood, to back mooney ricektts and nicholls up, i dont really see deeney as a striker.

Sorry but what team are you watching ??
We have lost 1 match out of 18, 2 I think out of 23. We have the second best defensive record in the league yet you reckon we need :-

1, A centre back - We have Gerrard, Dann, Roper and Smith, Were and when is this centre back going to play

2, Centre Midfielder - We have Wrack,Bradley,Dobson and Boetian,Sonkoo at a push

3, Why should we only consider a non league striker ??. Mr Fleetwood has had offers of £150k, Rickets might well be a free :o

4, Deeney not a striker ??? . He is 20 FGS played half a dozen matches Give him a chance

Frustrated UTS

[Plastic Hawk]

To an extent I agree with you, but I also see it like this.

You have to take your chances when they come around, and promotion is a real possibility this season. It happened in Graydons first season, I don't think promotion was ever thought about at the start of that season by any one with in the club.

If you fail to take these chances, who knows what will happen next season, it is all well and good saying we are going to push for promotion next season, but things often don't turn out how you expect. How many of our top players will be here next season ? Will Richard Money be here next season ? We don't know for certain. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that if we don't go up this season, next season could be a relegation battle. Unlikely but hopefully you see the point I am trying to make.

I honestly think we will make the play offs this season. The signing of Ricketts is important, unless they have someone else up their sleeve, but quality like that isn't easy to get to a 3rd division club. I just don't see who will take sixth place off us. We are such a hard team to beat these days. I wouldn't take it as a massive slap in the face if we didn't make it though.

Automatic promotion is only possible if we start turning some of the home draws in to wins, what it will take to make that happen is another question :D

I can see that argument too - and to be honest, I haven't totally convinced myself of mine yet.

But, as I said (and you do too), I think we've got a good chance of making the play-offs anyway with the current squad (including Ricketts), whereas I don't really see us going up automatically without really significant strengthening (I know we're only three points away from automatic promotion, but three of the teams above us have two or more games in hand and another has had a 15 point deduction which they've made up in half a season, so on that form we can expect them to go away from everyone else).

Given that we'd most likely only improve from "possibly making the play-offs" to "probably making the play-offs" and once you get there it's a bit of a lottery (although a lottery I'd fancy us to do well in) I'm not sure I'd want to gamble the development of our younger players on a huge push for a 25% shot at promotion this season (a 25% shot we might still get anyway). Not until deadline day anyway - if we're still close to the top two then, I'd think again.

Maybe I'm wrong and we should make every effort to grab this chance while we can. That's certainly a possibility, but if we do then I think we have to make sure that we're bringing in players to get automatic promotion and not just to firm up our play-off credentials.

[big baz 1]

This is all Big Baz 1's fault with his predictions.

Can we ban him or change his avatar to the Grim Reaper.

:D It wasnt my fault dont blame me

[Magic Man Fan]

8) :lol:

I'm just happy we have a manager who can recognise weaknesses and act on them. This itself is an advantage over previous managers and is a massive plus. I'm sure it's why JB has more faith in DD because he will only strengthen when needed and in the right areas on players that improve us which means we gain maximum benefit from a tight budget.

A certain Sky pundit couldn't recognise his own reflection in the mirror let alone what players we needed to bring in, and in which positions and he's not the only one who's played the number game regarding signings for us in the past.

[King Crimson]

8) :lol:

Wondered when you'd show up. :roll:


:D