Port Vale (H) League One - Saturday 8th September, 1pm KO

[Ned_Kelly]

True - but there is NEVER a good time to visit Millwall :lol: Which pub is everyone going in near the ground :lol:

Think we may just have a space for ya on our mini bus if you fancy it Steve. Leaving KGV at 9 in the morning. These fixtures sort the men from the boys :wink: :D

[Registered Saddler]

I worry about the amount of people on this thread that are clutching at straws by thinking once Mooney and Butler start a game together everything will be ok :roll: :oops: :?

Last season some people saw the deficiencies in our team and trusted DD to get it right. Others saw the deficiencies and moaned to their hearts' content. DD got it right, despite the doom-mongers that were very vocal throughout January and February.

This season some people see the deficiencies and still trust DD to get it right. Others see the deficiencies and still moan to their hearts' content.

It's easy to support a team that's flying and well clear at the top of the league (or so I thought until last season). It's not so easy to get behind the team when they struggle. I think Richard Money has earned our trust, I think the way he turned us around from the Merson debacle and then brought things together after our sticky patch in Jan/Feb shows he knows what he's doing. I don't think that's blind loyalty, I don't think its sticking your neck in the sand. I think it's being supportive. And as a Walsall supporter, that's what I do.

[Plastic Hawk]

Yesterday was the first game I really enjoyed this season and after the performance the lads put in I feel more encouraged for the season ahead. DD seamed to have ironed out the defensive errors and again we created loads of chances. A game we should have won.
Now we need to convert these chances to goals and we will be well on our way.

Bring on Millwall.

Creating loads of chances and missing them is a bad thing, not a good one. If you can't win the games which you dominate and create more chances in than the other side then you've got no hope of nicking the tight ones - or, even better, the ones where you have less possession and fewer chances than the opposition. Taking chances (or not) and being organized at the back is what separates the good sides from the poor ones at the end of the season. We got one out of two right yesterday, which is why we drew rather than lost. But until we get the other sorted too we're going to have a lot of games where we look like a million dollars but come away with a point - and that's a recipe for relegation.

Last season we sometimes didn't look pretty, but generally got the job done - and we went up. This season we're looking prettier, but consistently failing in the final third and going home without the three points. It's fairly obvious what that's likely to lead to.

[Plastic Hawk]

I worry about the amount of people on this thread that are clutching at straws by thinking once Mooney and Butler start a game together everything will be ok :roll: :oops: :?

Last season some people saw the deficiencies in our team and trusted DD to get it right. Others saw the deficiencies and moaned to their hearts' content. DD got it right, despite the doom-mongers that were very vocal throughout January and February.

This season some people see the deficiencies and still trust DD to get it right. Others see the deficiencies and still moan to their hearts' content.

It's easy to support a team that's flying and well clear at the top of the league (or so I thought until last season). It's not so easy to get behind the team when they struggle. I think Richard Money has earned our trust, I think the way he turned us around from the Merson debacle and then brought things together after our sticky patch in Jan/Feb shows he knows what he's doing. I don't think that's blind loyalty, I don't think its sticking your neck in the sand. I think it's being supportive. And as a Walsall supporter, that's what I do.

These two things are not mutually exclusive. I'm "moaning" on here, but I trust DD to get it right in the end. However, that trust doesn't extend as far as pretending that it's ok now. I won't boo players at the ground, I won't shout abuse at them and I certainly won't be calling for the manager's head, but when I'm sat at home, miles away from the ground I feel that I'm entitled to say it as I see it - and if I'm worried then I'll say so.

This isn't an extension of Walsall FC, it's an independent internet message board.

[Bernie]

Last season some people saw the deficiencies in our team and trusted DD to get it right. Others saw the deficiencies and moaned to their hearts' content. DD got it right, despite the doom-mongers that were very vocal throughout January and February.

Last season there were differences of opinion between Walsall fans about how things were going. Well blow me down, what a thing to happen. And then - horror of horrors - some people posted views on this board that RS did not agree with.

This is a messageboard where Walsall fans exchange views and opinions about how things are going. We are not always going to agree, some people are going to be right and some are going to be wrong. Unfortunately there are a few people who think that to post a view that is different to theirs, in particular if the opinion is that things need to be improved in some way, is wrong.

RS if you disagree with the arguments of those who think that there are problems in the squad then you can either ignore them or you could argue against them. Simply calling the people who express those views doom-mongers seems to be missing the point of what this messageboard is for.

[King Crimson]

That's a good post, Bernie. Pointing out negatives does not make one negative. Last season, there was never really much clear blue water between those whose nuance was 'This ain't good enough, DD needs to sort it out' and those who argued 'DD will sort this out, because we need to do better'. Both persuasions can argue that their position was well founded in that a) we won the division, BUT b) we brought in a number of loanees who made a pivotal contribution.

I have a feeling the same could come to pass this season.

[Registered Saddler]

I've re-read the whole thread and on the whole the views expressed are pretty balanced, a lot of sensible discussion about what positives we can take from the game and where we are coming up short. All that grates with me are people who only come up with negative viewpoints and never say anything positive. It is they to whom I am referring.

[YGA Saddler]

I've re-read the whole thread and on the whole the views expressed are pretty balanced, a lot of sensible discussion about what positives we can take from the game and where we are coming up short. All that grates with me are people who only come up with negative viewpoints and never say anything positive. It is they to whom I am referring.

Well if that is aimed at me I will put on here what i said after the game yesterday...

If DD can bring in some GOOD PLAYERS on loan, which I hope is a creative midfielder and a striker that can score goals then we will be OK.
Mooney is coming back to fitness, we will have Sonko back from Africa for next week and with a couple of additions I think we can build on yesterdays result and start moving up the table.

[Registered Saddler]

I've re-read the whole thread and on the whole the views expressed are pretty balanced, a lot of sensible discussion about what positives we can take from the game and where we are coming up short. All that grates with me are people who only come up with negative viewpoints and never say anything positive. It is they to whom I am referring.

Well if that is aimed at me I will put on here what i said after the game yesterday...

If DD can bring in some GOOD PLAYERS on loan, which I hope is a creative midfielder and a striker that can score goals then we will be OK.
Mooney is coming back to fitness, we will have Sonko back from Africa for next week and with a couple of additions I think we can build on yesterdays result and start moving up the table.

Hurrah! My relentless positivity is rubbing off :wink: .

[geoffwhiting]

I worry about the amount of people on this thread that are clutching at straws by thinking once Mooney and Butler start a game together everything will be ok :roll: :oops: :?

I think you're wrong to say that people think things will automatically be OK when Mooney and Butler get to play together. I don't think anyone has actually said that.

I think it would be more accurate to say that Mooney/Butler are the expected first-choice partnership up front, and I for one am prepared to give that partnership a chance, as long as it is going to happen sooner rather than later. I spoke to Mooney in the Bonser Suite at half-time yesterday and he clearly expects to be fit reasonably soon. If that is the case I look forward to seeing if it will work, but if we are going to have to wait another fortnight or more, then I think getting in another striker on loan is a vital issue to be addressed as soon as the loan-window opens.

Clearly a creative midfielder is also an urgent need in the squad, and I get the feeling from DD's outbursts that he is aware of both of these needs by now. Personally, I think it was obvious in August, and the club should have addressed this before the transfer window closed.

[Stu]

My only concern is that I really don't know if I see Butler/Mooney working as a partnership to be honest. They're both a bit 'samey' from what I saw.

Butler works the channels a bit more than Mooney granted, but essentially they're both 'back to goal' strikers. I just don't know if I see them working together to be honest.

Having not read the entire thread, where was Canary yesterday? I assume he was injured, if he was dropped then its yet another failed signing for DD/STM, the manager who said yesterday our funds were too precious to waste.

[YGA Saddler]

I have just seen Sillah is captain for Gambia today. He wouldnt have cost us much on wages and I was very impressed with him during pre-season. He could have worked well in our midfield especially how he did all the tidying up and hard tackles around our box. A player lost me thinks.

[Rushall Saddler]

I have just seen Sillah is captain for Gambia today. He wouldnt have cost us much on wages and I was very impressed with him during pre-season. He could have worked well in our midfield especially how he did all the tidying up and hard tackles around our box. A player lost me thinks.

Where did you get that from mate?

[Plastic Hawk]

I have just seen Sillah is captain for Gambia today. He wouldnt have cost us much on wages and I was very impressed with him during pre-season. He could have worked well in our midfield especially how he did all the tidying up and hard tackles around our box. A player lost me thinks.

What makes you think that he wouldn't cost much in wages? He's lived in Europe for years, played for Club Brugge (one of the biggest clubs in Belgium) and in the top divisions of Israeli and Russian football (there's a bit of money floating about in both of them). I haven't seen him play so can't comment on his ability, but just because he comes from a poor country doesn't mean that he'll automatically be on low wages himself.

[Gaz the Train]

The thing we've lacked since colin lee is scouting, anything STM throws our way is going to be a gamble. Every manager we have had has had a fatal flaw, Lee I liked the club felt professional under him and brought in some good players, but was tactically inept. Money is a good coach and knew how to grind out games last year, but his buys have been mediocre at best, Merson was an alcoholic waste of space and broadhurst well, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

If we had some semblence of Lee like scouting system and contacts with moneys coaching it could be fantastic.

[Plastic Hawk]

The thing we've lacked since colin lee is scouting, anything STM throws our way is going to be a gamble. Every manager we have had has had a fatal flaw, Lee I liked the club felt professional under him and brought in some good players, but was tactically inept. Money is a good coach and knew how to grind out games last year, but his buys have been mediocre at best, Merson was an alcoholic waste of space and broadhurst well, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

If we had some semblence of Lee like scouting system and contacts with moneys coaching it could be fantastic.

Lee was tactically inept? His tactics kept us in the Championship for two seasons - and they were the two seasons were we mostly didn't have the star names (Merson, Samways and Ritchie for the most part). Our survival was all about Lee's tactical awareness (coupled to the way he made the club more professional).

Edit:- Sorry, just realized I've probably stirred up a hornets' nest here... :oops:

[Evo Boozy Saddler]

I got up late, and missed the first 21 minutes. Was that bit any good?

[geoffwhiting]

My only concern is that I really don't know if I see Butler/Mooney working as a partnership to be honest. They're both a bit 'samey' from what I saw.
Butler works the channels a bit more than Mooney granted, but essentially they're both 'back to goal' strikers. I just don't know if I see them working together to be honest.

Having not read the entire thread, where was Canary yesterday? I assume he was injured, if he was dropped then its yet another failed signing for DD/STM, the manager who said yesterday our funds were too precious to waste.

That's been said before Stu, including by you I think.

You may turn out to be be right, but we haven't seen it yet at first team level in the league, so I'd welcome Mooney back fit, and in the front line alongside Butler, and I hope it works out.

But either way, if we can't see him coming back by the time we play Oldham at home in a fortnight, I think we need new blood in the side, even though it can only be a loan deal at best.

BTW, when DOES the loan window re-open?

[mikey]

BTW, when DOES the loan window re-open?

Just checked on the, get this, 'Official FA website'. Did a search for the transfer window and got this -

http://www.thefa.com/Features/TransferNews/Postings/2003/06/54279.htm


Either I've missed something (quite possible :D ) or the site needs updating :lol:

Friday 27 June, 2003 :lol: :lol: :lol:???

[Rushall Saddler]

My only concern is that I really don't know if I see Butler/Mooney working as a partnership to be honest. They're both a bit 'samey' from what I saw.
Butler works the channels a bit more than Mooney granted, but essentially they're both 'back to goal' strikers. I just don't know if I see them working together to be honest.

Having not read the entire thread, where was Canary yesterday? I assume he was injured, if he was dropped then its yet another failed signing for DD/STM, the manager who said yesterday our funds were too precious to waste.

That's been said before Stu, including by you I think.

You may turn out to be be right, but we haven't seen it yet at first team level in the league, so I'd welcome Mooney back fit, and in the front line alongside Butler, and I hope it works out.

But either way, if we can't see him coming back by the time we play Oldham at home in a fortnight, I think we need new blood in the side, even though it can only be a loan deal at best.

BTW, when DOES the loan window re-open?

Re-opened on Friday I believe.

[tinned]

Once again - negativity reigns I see. Yesterday was a good game, we played well and created chances. The only problem with yesterday was the inability to put the ball in the net. We had a vital decision go against us too. I too am concerned about where the first win is coming from, but some of you already have us back in League 2. If you think yesterday was a poor game - why were the team applauded off by the vast majority of the crowd at the end of both halves?

It is obvious to anyone that we need a striker who can find the net, but surely we should be looking for the positives after a much improved performance, not getting ready for a trip to League 2!

Sorry Steve, no offence meant, but I think you (and others) are trying to cover up the cracks with another piece of cheap wallpaper. Yeah, it was a slightly better performance but there was still a considerable lack of pace, energy & urgency. No matter how much improved a performance is (an yesterday's wasn't that much better) if you can't score after that many chances have been created then you're in big trouble.

I just can't see where there are going to be 4 worse teams than us this season. If we can't see off a very poor Vale team then the writing is on the wall. Unfortunately I don't think DD has got the skills needed to turn us around. The very poor team building, that has got us into this mess, should give some evidence towards this.

Onto the match itself. I thought Wrack had a very disappointing game, was he ill or something? Fox, on the other hand, had one of his more impressive performances. For the whole of last season DD has continued to play Fox constantly even though he was often terrible. For once he plays well and get's subbed :shock: :?

[WFC_Rob]

The fault of this is down to one person and one person only.

The manager.

That comment surprises me.
Seriously, what do you think Richard Money, as our manager, is doing wrong?

I can't think of much if I'm honest. All comes down to what he's got to work with if you ask me.

Took Fox off when he was playing well. Took Sonner off who was having a good game. Got Deeney to get changed ready to come on then told him to take his top off again and sent Alex on. Does he really know what he's doing or does he have bits of paper in his pocket with ideas on and picks 1 out at ramdom :?

Sonner was struggling. I son't think he'd fully overcome his injury to be honest. I don't blame Money for picking him though - he was well up for it in the first half and played really well. Taking him off hopefully prevented a recurrance of the injury that almost kept him out. We can't afford to lose him to injury with the problems we have already.
I agree with you about Fox. I wouldn't have taken him off, but maybe Money thought Ishmel could exploit the space more effectively.

What you have to remember about the Deeney/Nicholls decision is, as King Crimson suggested at the game, Vale hadn't long since made a couple of subs. Money took a step back to see what they'd put on the pitch before he made his move. As hindsight would suggest, his substitutions had little impact. If he'd rushed into making imbalanced subs and we'd conceded a goal however, everyone would be up in arms.

[Pedagogue]

Sonner was struggling. I don't think he'd fully overcome his injury to be honest. I don't blame Money for picking him though - he was well up for it, in the first half, and played really well. Taking him off hopefully prevented a recurrence of the injury that almost kept him out. We can't afford to lose him to injury, with the problems we have already.

Sonner was injured which is why he came off. He was making his way off the field well before the substitution board went up and, as soon as he sat on the bench, Jon Whitney was applying a large ice pack to his injury.

[WFCNIL]

I worry about the amount of people on this thread that are clutching at straws by thinking once Mooney and Butler start a game together everything will be ok :roll: :oops: :?

Last season some people saw the deficiencies in our team and trusted DD to get it right. Others saw the deficiencies and moaned to their hearts' content. DD got it right, despite the doom-mongers that were very vocal throughout January and February.

This season some people see the deficiencies and still trust DD to get it right. Others see the deficiencies and still moan to their hearts' content.

It's easy to support a team that's flying and well clear at the top of the league (or so I thought until last season). It's not so easy to get behind the team when they struggle. I think Richard Money has earned our trust, I think the way he turned us around from the Merson debacle and then brought things together after our sticky patch in Jan/Feb shows he knows what he's doing. I don't think that's blind loyalty, I don't think its sticking your neck in the sand. I think it's being supportive. And as a Walsall supporter, that's what I do.

Here here some scense at last

[King Crimson]

What you have to remember about the Deeney/Nicholls decision is, as King Crimson suggested at the game, Vale hadn't long since made a couple of subs. Money took a step back to see what they'd put on the pitch before he made his move. As hindsight would suggest, his substitutions had little impact. If he'd rushed into making imbalanced subs and we'd conceded a goal however, everyone would be up in arms.

I agree. :D

[Stu]

I worry about the amount of people on this thread that are clutching at straws by thinking once Mooney and Butler start a game together everything will be ok :roll: :oops: :?

Last season some people saw the deficiencies in our team and trusted DD to get it right. Others saw the deficiencies and moaned to their hearts' content. DD got it right, despite the doom-mongers that were very vocal throughout January and February.

This season some people see the deficiencies and still trust DD to get it right. Others see the deficiencies and still moan to their hearts' content.

It's easy to support a team that's flying and well clear at the top of the league (or so I thought until last season). It's not so easy to get behind the team when they struggle. I think Richard Money has earned our trust, I think the way he turned us around from the Merson debacle and then brought things together after our sticky patch in Jan/Feb shows he knows what he's doing. I don't think that's blind loyalty, I don't think its sticking your neck in the sand. I think it's being supportive. And as a Walsall supporter, that's what I do.

Here here some scense at last

RS, in all fairness, all the "doom mongers" that you referred to said we needed was pace and width. DD only turned things around when he brought in the type of players your afore-mentioned "doom mongers" said we needed.

It is very easy to support a team when they're top, its even harder to then stick your neck above the parapet with that team and say "Hang on, we're top, but we want to stay there and we need to change something to make sure we do." I'd say that takes a bit of balls and courage personally.

The "doom mongers" you refer to are now pointing out the need for a striker and have been since before the season kicked off. What are the odds on DD signing a striker? Quite high I'd hope based on the failure to take chances so far.

So are they really doom mongers or just realists? Quite clearly the latter in my view.

[Registered Saddler]

Stu - even if we win every match, there's still going to be areas in which we can improve. We are only Walsall, after all. There are moments though - like now and like last January/February time - when the need to put things right becomes rather more urgent. While this season is not without some encouraging signs, it would be foolish (plain wrong, in fact) to assume everything is rosy. We can discuss all we like about whether it is more important we bring a striker in, or a midfielder, or a player with pace, or just wait until we have a full squad fit and available. That's all fine. However some people seem to have written us off to relegation already and that seems rather unfair in my view. At this stage, I think Richard Money has earned a bit more trust that he will identify the flaws and put them right. He did do that last season, after all. I think he deserves that respect, that patience.

[womblesaddler]

I worry about the amount of people on this thread that are clutching at straws by thinking once Mooney and Butler start a game together everything will be ok :roll: :oops: :?

Last season some people saw the deficiencies in our team and trusted DD to get it right. Others saw the deficiencies and moaned to their hearts' content. DD got it right, despite the doom-mongers that were very vocal throughout January and February.

This season some people see the deficiencies and still trust DD to get it right. Others see the deficiencies and still moan to their hearts' content.

It's easy to support a team that's flying and well clear at the top of the league (or so I thought until last season). It's not so easy to get behind the team when they struggle. I think Richard Money has earned our trust, I think the way he turned us around from the Merson debacle and then brought things together after our sticky patch in Jan/Feb shows he knows what he's doing. I don't think that's blind loyalty, I don't think its sticking your neck in the sand. I think it's being supportive. And as a Walsall supporter, that's what I do.

Here here some scense at last

RS, in all fairness, all the "doom mongers" that you referred to said we needed was pace and width. DD only turned things around when he brought in the type of players your afore-mentioned "doom mongers" said we needed.

It is very easy to support a team when they're top, its even harder to then stick your neck above the parapet with that team and say "Hang on, we're top, but we want to stay there and we need to change something to make sure we do." I'd say that takes a bit of balls and courage personally.

The "doom mongers" you refer to are now pointing out the need for a striker and have been since before the season kicked off. What are the odds on DD signing a striker? Quite high I'd hope based on the failure to take chances so far.

So are they really doom mongers or just realists? Quite clearly the latter in my view.

All hail the doom mongers- take credit for all the good signings and carry on slating the bad ones They were ALL responsible for Harper and co coming to save our promotion campaign, so easy to say this now the games have been played and we have one the league that your concern was "TO STAY TOP OF THE LEAGUE" I would suggest that DD had already identified the problem as he had been saying for many weeks before the signings came in.

thats why the TRUE realists werent as happy to spout the tosh thats often been displayed by some

[philthesaddler]

Look, we're going to struggle to put the ball in the back of the net, which means we will struggle to win games.

It's not rocket science.

If anyone believes we will stay up without any significant improvements to the squad, then they're deluded. We have defensive frailties, no pace in midfield or upfront, Danny Sonner and not a single striker in his 20s.

[Plastic Hawk]

Last season some people saw the deficiencies in our team and trusted DD to get it right. Others saw the deficiencies and moaned to their hearts' content. DD got it right, despite the doom-mongers that were very vocal throughout January and February.

This season some people see the deficiencies and still trust DD to get it right. Others see the deficiencies and still moan to their hearts' content.

It's easy to support a team that's flying and well clear at the top of the league (or so I thought until last season). It's not so easy to get behind the team when they struggle. I think Richard Money has earned our trust, I think the way he turned us around from the Merson debacle and then brought things together after our sticky patch in Jan/Feb shows he knows what he's doing. I don't think that's blind loyalty, I don't think its sticking your neck in the sand. I think it's being supportive. And as a Walsall supporter, that's what I do.

RS, in all fairness, all the "doom mongers" that you referred to said we needed was pace and width. DD only turned things around when he brought in the type of players your afore-mentioned "doom mongers" said we needed.

It is very easy to support a team when they're top, its even harder to then stick your neck above the parapet with that team and say "Hang on, we're top, but we want to stay there and we need to change something to make sure we do." I'd say that takes a bit of balls and courage personally.

The "doom mongers" you refer to are now pointing out the need for a striker and have been since before the season kicked off. What are the odds on DD signing a striker? Quite high I'd hope based on the failure to take chances so far.

So are they really doom mongers or just realists? Quite clearly the latter in my view.

All hail the doom mongers- take credit for all the good signings and carry on slating the bad ones They were ALL responsible for Harper and co coming to save our promotion campaign, so easy to say this now the games have been played and we have one the league that your concern was "TO STAY TOP OF THE LEAGUE" I would suggest that DD had already identified the problem as he had been saying for many weeks before the signings came in.

thats why the TRUE realists werent as happy to spout the tosh thats often been displayed by some

Surely nobody on here would try to claim any "credit" for anything that happens with regard to signings and performance. Of course the players and management at the club are responsible for that. But the fact that we can't really influence what goes on at the club doesn't mean that we can't express our opinion if we think things need to be changed around - which they do now.

For what it's worth, I was a "happy clapper" last season - I thought some of the criticism on here was well over the top. Things won't always be perfect at any club, but people were getting things out of perspective and small problems were blown up into crises while the big picture (the fact that from about Christmas onwards we never looked like missing out on promotion) was ignored. This season it's different. The big picture is that we're bottom (ignoring Leeds) and don't look like winning a game - or even scoring - anytime soon. Those who are picking out crumbs of comfort to cling to ("we created chances", "a clean sheet") are as guilty of missing the big picture as the "doom mongers" were last season.

Anyway, what's the point of having a discussion if everyone has to tow the party line?