Swansea City (H) League 1- Saturday 25th August 2007

[Geordiesaddler]

I honestly don't know why DD dropped Gerrard to bring Roper in, I think he's made an error of judgement on this one and it cost us yesterday by the sounds of it.

There's no bigger fan of Roper on here than me , Roper is notouriously a slow starter season , but to fair to Gerrard he hasn't done a lot wrong , maybe DD's timing was wrong bringing Roper in to soon.
having said that i feel Roper and Dann are our best central defensive partnership.

I agree, but I'm a total fan of if a player has got the shirt and does well they should keep it. I don't like players being picked without earning their selection. Gerrard had a far better pre-season than Roper who is clearly suffering from his usual slow start fitness wise, compounded by recovery from injury. DD said he wanted "more strength" but I didn't see any deficiency in that department against Carlisle so if it isn't broken why fix it? If Gerrard does well during Roper's suspension and then get's dropped again what message does that send out?

[Bernie]

Oh FFS stop being so beedin' precious. I havn't insulted anyone, the line like pigs at the trough was a general comment not an insult. Anyone who has ever travelled to a game with me will confirm that I get very excited when passing the pig farm just north of York, I absolutely love them.

You seem to have a real problem letting things go Bernie, and its a shame because it undermines your contribution to the discussion

Oh, I see. When you said about the post match comments "Moaners enjoy your week like pigs at the trough" you were actually complimenting us. :? You could either stick to your guns and say that we deserved the insult or you could withdraw it. You choose instead to pretend that it was a compliment.

As for letting things go there is no reason at all why I should stop talking about things just because they happened last season. Lee and Merson are history, but Richard Money is our present manager. When we are talking about his performance it is still very relevant to talk about all his achievements last season. I am not going to let go on my appreciation of how he brought the club round and won promotion and the championship. What he did last year must be taken into account when talking about how things are going this season. To talk about DD's handling of Ishmel without saying that he left him out 49 times last season would be like discussing Maria Callas without mentioning opera.

[coxy_saddler]

Also i must say..Boriten is just pure quality..Really glad we've snapped him up..He makes it look so easy.

[Plastic Hawk]

To talk about DD's handling of Ishmel without saying that he left him out 49 times last season would be like discussing Maria Callas without mentioning opera.

Last season DD made decisions that worked well for Walsall FC (his primary job) - we won the league. So, how many times Ishmel started, was on the bench or was out of the 16 altogether doesn't matter from the club's point of view.

As for whether they were the best decisions for Ishmel's development as a player (a secondary part of DD's job), we won't know that for several years (until we see what kind of a player Ishmel becomes) - and maybe not ever (as who can say what would have happened if he'd started more games). If we sell Ishmel to a Premiership club for £1m plus next summer then will you re-assess your view of DD's handling of him last season?

[Geordiesaddler]

Oh FFS stop being so beedin' precious. I havn't insulted anyone, the line like pigs at the trough was a general comment not an insult. Anyone who has ever travelled to a game with me will confirm that I get very excited when passing the pig farm just north of York, I absolutely love them.

You seem to have a real problem letting things go Bernie, and its a shame because it undermines your contribution to the discussion

Oh, I see. When you said about the post match comments "Moaners enjoy your week like pigs at the trough" you were actually complimenting us. :? You could either stick to your guns and say that we deserved the insult or you could withdraw it. You choose instead to pretend that it was a compliment.

As for letting things go there is no reason at all why I should stop talking about things just because they happened last season. Lee and Merson are history, but Richard Money is our present manager. When we are talking about his performance it is still very relevant to talk about all his achievements last season. I am not going to let go on my appreciation of how he brought the club round and won promotion and the championship. What he did last year must be taken into account when talking about how things are going this season. To talk about DD's handling of Ishmel without saying that he left him out 49 times last season would be like discussing Maria Callas without mentioning opera.

So you are now self-appointed spokesman and protector of "the moaners"?

Oh dear I'm very very sorry I upset your collective sensibilities, please pass on my heartfelt apologies at your next get-together.

Good to see you've finally come round to Hector Sam Bernie, lest year when he was wearing the red of Walsall you described him on here as "useless" now he plays for someone else you want him back!

For pity's sake why don't you just stop moaning and get behind the lads.

[Duke]

I honestly don't know why DD dropped Gerrard to bring Roper in, I think he's made an error of judgement on this one and it cost us yesterday by the sounds of it.

There's no bigger fan of Roper on here than me , Roper is notouriously a slow starter season , but to fair to Gerrard he hasn't done a lot wrong , maybe DD's timing was wrong bringing Roper in to soon.
having said that i feel Roper and Dann are our best central defensive partnership.

I agree, but I'm a total fan of if a player has got the shirt and does well they should keep it. I don't like players being picked without earning their selection. Gerrard had a far better pre-season than Roper who is clearly suffering from his usual slow start fitness wise, compounded by recovery from injury. DD said he wanted "more strength" but I didn't see any deficiency in that department against Carlisle so if it isn't broken why fix it? If Gerrard does well during Roper's suspension and then get's dropped again what message does that send out?

you never know Geordie,we just may see Picken make an appearance :D
one thing Merson never learnt if it aint broke don't fix it.

[Bernie]

As for whether they were the best decisions for Ishmel's development as a player (a secondary part of DD's job), we won't know that for several years (until we see what kind of a player Ishmel becomes) - and maybe not ever (as who can say what would have happened if he'd started more games). If we sell Ishmel to a Premiership club for £1m plus next summer then will you re-assess your view of DD's handling of him last season?

We can never know what would have happened if Ishmel had been given more starts. As I said on another thread whatever happens to Ishmel's career, whether he is sold for a fortune or ends up at Kidderminster (or Winson Green) there will be those who argue that it proves that Richard Money was right in how he handled him.

During last season most posters on this board wanted to get rid of him because of his discipline record and others did not think that he was good enough for the first team anyway. My brief mentions of him are generally aimed at all those who argued that he should be either sacked or given a free transfer. I would rather think that we have already seen enough this season to suggest that they were wrong. If it irritates those who wanted him out then I am not really sorry about that, but it is not my intention. It would be nice to read a post from them saying they were wrong, but I am not holding my breath.

[Plastic Hawk]

As for whether they were the best decisions for Ishmel's development as a player (a secondary part of DD's job), we won't know that for several years (until we see what kind of a player Ishmel becomes) - and maybe not ever (as who can say what would have happened if he'd started more games). If we sell Ishmel to a Premiership club for £1m plus next summer then will you re-assess your view of DD's handling of him last season?

We can never know what would have happened if Ishmel had been given more starts. As I said on another thread whatever happens to Ishmel's career, whether he is sold for a fortune or ends up at Kidderminster (or Winson Green) there will be those who argue that it proves that Richard Money was right in how he handled him.

During last season most posters on this board wanted to get rid of him because of his discipline record and others did not think that he was good enough for the first team anyway. My brief mentions of him are generally aimed at all those who argued that he should be either sacked or given a free transfer. I would rather think that we have already seen enough this season to suggest that they were wrong. If it irritates those who wanted him out then I am not really sorry about that, but it is not my intention. It would be nice to read a post from them saying they were wrong, but I am not holding my breath.

I agree totally with your first paragraph, but the same could also be said for the people who argue that DD was wrong in how he handled Ishy. However, developing Ishmel as a player was a lesser priority than getting Walsall out of League 2 - something that we know that DD achieved.

Ishmel clearly shouldn't have been released for football reasons last season - and that much was obvious at the time. The disciplinary stuff was based on hearsay as I remember (something about a confrontation with a non-footballing member of staff at the club), and I'd never have advocated getting rid of him simply on the basis of what a few fans said about something like that. I'm still not convinced that he should have been in the starting XI last season though...

[Duke]

DD's thoughts.

http://www.saddlers.premiumtv.co.uk/pag ... 31,00.html

[Geordiesaddler]

As for whether they were the best decisions for Ishmel's development as a player (a secondary part of DD's job), we won't know that for several years (until we see what kind of a player Ishmel becomes) - and maybe not ever (as who can say what would have happened if he'd started more games). If we sell Ishmel to a Premiership club for £1m plus next summer then will you re-assess your view of DD's handling of him last season?

We can never know what would have happened if Ishmel had been given more starts. As I said on another thread whatever happens to Ishmel's career, whether he is sold for a fortune or ends up at Kidderminster (or Winson Green) there will be those who argue that it proves that Richard Money was right in how he handled him.

During last season most posters on this board wanted to get rid of him because of his discipline record and others did not think that he was good enough for the first team anyway. My brief mentions of him are generally aimed at all those who argued that he should be either sacked or given a free transfer. I would rather think that we have already seen enough this season to suggest that they were wrong. If it irritates those who wanted him out then I am not really sorry about that, but it is not my intention. It would be nice to read a post from them saying they were wrong, but I am not holding my breath.

You simply are not in a position to make the comment "the majority of people on here wanted Ishy sacked" so to pretend that you are is pathetic.

There were some people who wanted Ishy sacked but it had nothing to do with footballing ability, but an incident involving a member of the club staff when Ishmel badly let himself down in a manner that would have seen him sacked from from most jobs. You of course know that Bernie, so doing your "prentending to be thick" routine won't wash, why do you do that by the way? I think I've asked you before but you didn't answer.

Here you as good as admit that everything you post about Ishy is from the "I told you so" angle, well boo hoo. If that's what you get off on so be it. Personally whatever happened last season was dealt with successfully by DD and Walsall FC, hence we have Ishy on a new 2 year deal and playing a major role in both games he's ben available for this season - looking it has to be said a better player and a more well rounded human being.

So for the umpeenth time (until you bring it up next week) well done Ishy, well done DD, and well done Walsall FC. Has that satisfied you for a few minutes?

[Registered Saddler]

A couple of weeks ago Bernie was pointing out that Fox is never dropped and DD never plays Ishy. He hasn't mentioned that great insight much recently.

[SaigonSaddler]

I think DD has played Ishy rather nicely. Now he is more mature he's getting more first team action. Simple as.

[Over The Moon]

Frustratingly, Money's hands seem to be tied. I can't believe that he wanted Carneiro and Sonko - Paul Taylor signed them. Until the manager is given a reasonable amount of backing from Bonser, we'll struggle. It's simply unforgivable for us to be put in the same position as we were in 2 years ago.

At last, some sense!!!! TOTALLY AGREE 100% the emboldened part especially.

Yes i think it's time over the next week Mr Bonser decides which way the club should go does
A) Stick with the policy of signing old has beens eg Sonner and Hall and poor foreign signings like Carlos with the help of sun tan man and struggle at this level like we are doing! Or
B) Sign a couple of players from the championship who are not quite good enough for that level or a young player on season long loan from the premiership surely the money must be there to do this as we apparantly had bids for Frecklington and Byfield.

[Bernie]

Geordie I really do not understand why you continue to put insults in your posts. Now I am "pathetic" and "pretending to be thick".

My post clearly distinguished between the clear majority who posted on the "Sack Ishmel" thread that they wanted Ishmel out because of discipline problems, and those such as yourself who wanted him out because he was no better than a non-league player.

This thread should about the match - not about the merits of individual posters. Why are you so concerned about what I write, since I do not insult you?

[Bernie]

A couple of weeks ago Bernie was pointing out that Fox is never dropped and DD never plays Ishy. He hasn't mentioned that great insight much recently.

My old maths teacher used to put the question "What time is it?" in a test. He then took delight in marking the answer wrong when he marked the test an hour later.

[Registered Saddler]

A couple of weeks ago Bernie was pointing out that Fox is never dropped and DD never plays Ishy. He hasn't mentioned that great insight much recently.

My old maths teacher used to put the question "What time is it?" in a test. He then took delight in marking the answer wrong when he marked the test an hour later.

So points about what DD was doing two weeks ago AREN'T relevant, but points about what DD was doing last season ARE? You're going to have to run that one by me again, I'm afraid.

[dinkydotsaddler]

I would sum up today thus (having missed my first league game of the season).

"Walsall weren't at their best, UTS was at its worst"

Onward to Gillingham, and then Vale, games that will give us a very real indication or our problems should there really be any.

Moaners enjoy your week like pigs at the trough, I'll just see you at Priestfield via the Livingstone Arms.

IDIOT

[SaigonSaddler]

I would sum up today thus (having missed my first league game of the season).

"Walsall weren't at their best, UTS was at its worst"

Onward to Gillingham, and then Vale, games that will give us a very real indication or our problems should there really be any.

Moaners enjoy your week like pigs at the trough, I'll just see you at Priestfield via the Livingstone Arms.

IDIOT

Thanks for adding to the debate, prat

[King Crimson]

For what they're worth, my player ratings:

Boertien - 5. Nothing going forward at all and occasionally caught out of position when Swansea attacked down our left. Better option than Fox though.

Roper - 6. Decent performance until the sending off. Not the quickest on the turn but never looked in any real trouble. Given no chance when sent off, but maybe should have just let the guy go (he could have fluffed the chance).

I'd love a more detailed breakdown on how Roper had a better game than Boertien. I thought Boertien was the classiest player we had on show today.

By the way, I could do a Carneiro: grow my hair and fail to score across Europe.

Best team won today. We need to learn why, fast, and move on.

Seems most people were in agreement with you, but I thought that Boertien took the easy options today. He didn't appear to be as stretched as the rest of our defenders because he wasn't ever going out of his comfort zone. Roper looked clumsy a couple of times when he dived in putting his body on the line for the cause - but, apart from the red card, not actually fouling (Scotland dived when he got booked). He made at least one excellent block early in the second half as a Swansea player lined up a shot (from Boertien's zone actually). Boertien seemed more concerned with making sure nothing that went wrong could be pinned on him individually (hence not going forwards, even when we were losing, so he wasn't out of position - although he still was a couple of times). Personally I'd rather have someone in there who's prepared to risk a little damage to their own ego for the team.

As I say, that's just the way I saw it - and judging from the comments I seem to be in the minority...

Cheers for that. Much appreciated. The game is all about opinions etc etc. :wink:

[Salop Saddler]

The Stop Moaning and Get Behind the Lads crowd have put their heads above the parapet.

There are many obvious reasons for wanting Walsall to start playing well and winning but in addition to all of them there is the hope that we do not have a repeat of this board of two years ago.

In 2005/06 we were playing badly and being led by an idiot who made mistake after mistake, but on this board the dominant theme of a number of posters was that we should never post any criticisms of the team or its management because that is just negative. There were threads in which a number of different views about what was going wrong were being discussed, opinions about players were being exchanged, and reasonable arguments with different theories about how we could improve were challenged. Unfortunately those threads were frequently hijacked by people who did not want to discuss the relative merits of the players or the management, but instead just wanted to attack those of us who were writing about what was going wrong.

This is a thread about our performance against Swansea. A range of views about the players has been put, and it is always interesting to see how different people saw the game. It really does make me re-assess my opinons when I read a well argued case for the opposite position on a player. Some people think Roper played really badly, but it was interesting to read PH defend him. What is wrong with putting forward an opinion and waiting to see if others agree or disagree?

Unfortunately the exchange of views on players and tactics has been interrupted by some who are not posting in order to take part in the discussion, but in an attempt to put an end to it. We are described as "pigs at the trough" just because we write about the match as we see it, and want to try to understand what was going wrong. A thread about the match has been turned into a thread about this board.

Can I suggest that people who do not want to read arguments about the strengths and weaknesses of the Walsall players, and do not want to share and exchange opinions about how the team could be improved, should avoid the All About Walsall part of this site? I really do not understand why they think they should attempt to close down discussion or simply be abusive to those who are taking part in it.

You make some very valid points Bernie. Well said.

I didn't see yesterdays game so I can't comment on it though it was no suprise whatsoever to see us go down again. I hope I'm wrong, but I do believe that it's going to get harder and harder to justify a majority of the signings made by the club during the summer.

[sack]

spot on both of you, but i've told you we ain't signing anyone this week according to DD in the after match press conferance.

Frustratingly, Money's hands seem to be tied. I can't believe that he wanted Carneiro and Sonko - Paul Taylor signed them. Until the manager is given a reasonable amount of backing from Bonser, we'll struggle. It's simply unforgivable for us to be put in the same position as we were in 2 years ago.

At last, some sense!!!! TOTALLY AGREE 100% the emboldened part especially.

Yes i think it's time over the next week Mr Bonser decides which way the club should go does
A) Stick with the policy of signing old has beens eg Sonner and Hall and poor foreign signings like Carlos with the help of sun tan man and struggle at this level like we are doing! Or
B) Sign a couple of players from the championship who are not quite good enough for that level or a young player on season long loan from the premiership surely the money must be there to do this as we apparantly had bids for Frecklington and Byfield.

[Plastic Hawk]

spot on both of you, but i've told you we ain't signing anyone this week according to DD in the after match press conferance.

Surely everyone realizes by now that what football managers say in press conferences means absolutely nothing.

If DD says "we desperately need to get a striker and a midfielder in" then the price (in wages as well as possible transfer fees) for that type of player will go up. On the other hand, if he plays down the need for new signings then players' agents are likely to have lower expectations of what they can get from the club. That brings more players into our price range.

Similarly, a sensible manager will always talk up his own players in public (to try to keep negative media attention away from them and to inflate their value when they're sold). It doesn't mean that he actually believes what he says.

This isn't to say that we'll definitely sign a striker this week (although I hope we do - and if Mooney's injury is as bad as reported on another thread we'd be stupid not to), just that it's not made any more or less likely by anything that DD chooses to say to the media.

[Geordiesaddler]

Geordie I really do not understand why you continue to put insults in your posts. Now I am "pathetic" and "pretending to be thick".

My post clearly distinguished between the clear majority who posted on the "Sack Ishmel" thread that they wanted Ishmel out because of discipline problems, and those such as yourself who wanted him out because he was no better than a non-league player.

This thread should about the match - not about the merits of individual posters. Why are you so concerned about what I write, since I do not insult you?

Just to point out your latest glaring inaccuracies, I did not call you pathetic, I called your blatent opinion presented as fact pathetic - and it is.

As for pretending to be thick, well maybe a bit harsh, but you do employ a very selective memory.

Also I didn't say that Ishy should be got rid of on the thread regarding his potential sacking last season, you are actually telling lies now Bernie and you know you are. I actually said IMO at the end of the Merson relegation season that Ishy was no better than non-league and we might as well get rid.

Well that was my opinion at the time based on what I had seen, of course you could find dozens of examples since where I have clearly re-formed my opinion of Ishy as a footballer but you wouldn't want to mention that would you because it doesn't suit your argument, so like everything else that doesn't suit your argument you ignore it. Feigning ignorance - dictionary definition would probably read... pretending to be thick .

[Bernie]

Geordie, I think your post speaks for itself and needs no further comment from me.

[big baz 1]

You look at swansea`s midfield: Britton, pratley, bode and robinson i doubt i will see a better midfield than them four in league 1 to be honest. Those four have to be among the best midfield players in league they were too quick and too good for our midfield. Robinson started wide left and britton wide right with bode and pratley in the middle, during the game they was constantly swapping i saw robinson wide right, britton in the middle pratley wide left . The movement of all four of them was too good for our midfield and they showed how slow tramp and dobbo are especially dobbo.

[Geordiesaddler]

Geordie, I think your post speaks for itself and needs no further comment from me.

If only!!

You come on here all thin skinned and precious Bernie but I'm sorry I tell it how it is and treat as I find so the little word games don't wash with me.

I look forward to your opinions because you make some intelligent and thought provoking contributions.

In future I will just try and ignore your irritating obsessions and attempts to re-write history as I do generally on the board these days, those two things along with blatent hypocricy are maybe my hobby horses that I often react to and you consistently push all three buttons.

[philthesaddler]

Only just got back from Wales so some very quick thoughts on the game:

Sonner: Atrocious performance, one of the worst I've ever seen from a Walsall midfielder, how anyone can say he's an improvement on Keates is beyond me. Couldn't pass it forwards, couldn't win tackles, was lazy with a bad attitude and gave it away far too often, and far too slow.

An example: A Walsall attack breaks down, Sonner is midway inside Swanseas half. Swansea begin an attack - Sonner his walking back gesturing over towards the bench or in that direction, shouting at someone perhaps, still walking. The ball ends up with Scotland who crosses and the ball gets cleared -it is now about 25 seconds since Swansea began their attack and Sonner is still walking back. The ball gets cleared directly to where Sonner would have been, ends up at a Swansea players feet who launches another attack, Sonner suddenly realises and starts running back.

Dobson: again, awful. No pace, little strenght, no vision, awful passing - for gods sake man, stop trying to pass it with the outside of your boot, you're not cesc fabregas, and Thierry Henry isn't up front.

Hall: Pathetic... like I said when we signed him, he offers nothing. Slow and disinterested, let Nicholls play.

Weston: poor game, looked unfit, I'm sure theres more to come from him

Butler: Had 4 good chances to score, and I mean good chances, through on goal with only the keeper to beat, and only scored one, really should have had a hat trick. For gods sake Butler, hit the shots like you mean it, not with a powder puff.

Tactics: Playing a midfield with an average age of 31-32 by my calculations in searing heat isn't the best way to go DD.

Midfield also sit far too deep when we're defending, meaning we cant get the ball out.

We still haven't got a clue how to pass and move, making us very predictable.

Just to go on the record, I don't think Money is the best manager in the world like some do, I think his signings this summer, and the tactics we've always played under him are very poor. Our midfield is slow and ponderous, weak in the tackle and has little or no movement.

We could do with an assistant manager, a midfielder who can run faster than me and a striker. But wait, that costs money!

[Stu]

I thought Dobson had quite a tidy game, caught out on the 2nd goal as the entire midfield was, but quite tidy otherwise. Certainly more effective than Sonner.

[Mal]

Coming out of the ground a chap was chatting to me on how well Paul Hall had played and that Wracky was crap and so is Sonner ???

The joy of opinions, for me Hall should have been 'Halled' off and not put up front to cover the fact his days as a right wing/midfield are over. Moving Ishy from upfront to the right killed the pace and movement we had started with, smacked of panic from Mr Money to me that he picked the wrong team.

For what it is worth I would have subbed Hall after 20 mins bring Fox to the left and Wracky to the right.

Unfortunatley Dobson just does not have the pace or movement for a 4 man midfield, would be great in a 5 just in front of the back 4, maybe an option but I would replace with Wrack, bringing Sonko in on the right.

My team for the Gills

Ince
Boertien,Gerrard,Dann,Weston
Fox,Wrack,Sonner,Sonko
Ishy, Mooney

Subs:Canary, Dobson, Bossu, Butler, Deeney

[Red Leader]

I didnt go to the game and I have only seen the goals (that virgin media website is great :D )

for what its worth:

Ince was unlucky for the 1st goal, it took a slight deflection and he looked to have it covered
the second did not look as if it crossed the line, and this is reflected in the players re-actions (even the swansea players did not seem to think so). The only person who thought it did. However, without a camera on the goal line we will never know for sure.

PS a shocking pass from wrack!!

overall, we are only a 3 games into the season. There is no need to panic as this is a largely new team with some good players which will take a while to gell. Having said that, the games againt Port Vale and Gillingham are now important games and it is important that we look to get at least 4 points.