Swansea City (H) League 1- Saturday 25th August 2007

[Bernie]

The Stop Moaning and Get Behind the Lads crowd have put their heads above the parapet.

There are many obvious reasons for wanting Walsall to start playing well and winning but in addition to all of them there is the hope that we do not have a repeat of this board of two years ago.

In 2005/06 we were playing badly and being led by an idiot who made mistake after mistake, but on this board the dominant theme of a number of posters was that we should never post any criticisms of the team or its management because that is just negative. There were threads in which a number of different views about what was going wrong were being discussed, opinions about players were being exchanged, and reasonable arguments with different theories about how we could improve were challenged. Unfortunately those threads were frequently hijacked by people who did not want to discuss the relative merits of the players or the management, but instead just wanted to attack those of us who were writing about what was going wrong.

This is a thread about our performance against Swansea. A range of views about the players has been put, and it is always interesting to see how different people saw the game. It really does make me re-assess my opinons when I read a well argued case for the opposite position on a player. Some people think Roper played really badly, but it was interesting to read PH defend him. What is wrong with putting forward an opinion and waiting to see if others agree or disagree?

Unfortunately the exchange of views on players and tactics has been interrupted by some who are not posting in order to take part in the discussion, but in an attempt to put an end to it. We are described as "pigs at the trough" just because we write about the match as we see it, and want to try to understand what was going wrong. A thread about the match has been turned into a thread about this board.

Can I suggest that people who do not want to read arguments about the strengths and weaknesses of the Walsall players, and do not want to share and exchange opinions about how the team could be improved, should avoid the All About Walsall part of this site? I really do not understand why they think they should attempt to close down discussion or simply be abusive to those who are taking part in it.

[1966]

I put my faith in that we are still a team in progress, that DD isnt a mug and sees all of the same problems that the best part of seven pages of this thread refer to.

I also put my faith in that we still looking to bring in a player to replace Kinsella, both on the field and off, be it on a season long loan or whatever.

Call me old fashioned but isnt this called being a supporter?

[priestley_saddler]

The Stop Moaning and Get Behind the Lads crowd have put their heads above the parapet.

There are many obvious reasons for wanting Walsall to start playing well and winning but in addition to all of them there is the hope that we do not have a repeat of this board of two years ago.

In 2005/06 we were playing badly and being led by an idiot who made mistake after mistake, but on this board the dominant theme of a number of posters was that we should never post any criticisms of the team or its management because that is just negative. There were threads in which a number of different views about what was going wrong were being discussed, opinions about players were being exchanged, and reasonable arguments with different theories about how we could improve were challenged. Unfortunately those threads were frequently hijacked by people who did not want to discuss the relative merits of the players or the management, but instead just wanted to attack those of us who were writing about what was going wrong.

This is a thread about our performance against Swansea. A range of views about the players has been put, and it is always interesting to see how different people saw the game. It really does make me re-assess my opinons when I read a well argued case for the opposite position on a player. Some people think Roper played really badly, but it was interesting to read PH defend him. What is wrong with putting forward an opinion and waiting to see if others agree or disagree?

Unfortunately the exchange of views on players and tactics has been interrupted by some who are not posting in order to take part in the discussion, but in an attempt to put an end to it. We are described as "pigs at the trough" just because we write about the match as we see it, and want to try to understand what was going wrong. A thread about the match has been turned into a thread about this board.

Can I suggest that people who do not want to read arguments about the strengths and weaknesses of the Walsall players, and do not want to share and exchange opinions about how the team could be improved, should avoid the All About Walsall part of this site? I really do not understand why they think they should attempt to close down discussion or simply be abusive to those who are taking part in it.

Fantastic post

[CoalpoolSaddler]

The Stop Moaning and Get Behind the Lads crowd have put their heads above the parapet.

There are many obvious reasons for wanting Walsall to start playing well and winning but in addition to all of them there is the hope that we do not have a repeat of this board of two years ago.

In 2005/06 we were playing badly and being led by an idiot who made mistake after mistake, but on this board the dominant theme of a number of posters was that we should never post any criticisms of the team or its management because that is just negative. There were threads in which a number of different views about what was going wrong were being discussed, opinions about players were being exchanged, and reasonable arguments with different theories about how we could improve were challenged. Unfortunately those threads were frequently hijacked by people who did not want to discuss the relative merits of the players or the management, but instead just wanted to attack those of us who were writing about what was going wrong.

This is a thread about our performance against Swansea. A range of views about the players has been put, and it is always interesting to see how different people saw the game. It really does make me re-assess my opinons when I read a well argued case for the opposite position on a player. Some people think Roper played really badly, but it was interesting to read PH defend him. What is wrong with putting forward an opinion and waiting to see if others agree or disagree?

Unfortunately the exchange of views on players and tactics has been interrupted by some who are not posting in order to take part in the discussion, but in an attempt to put an end to it. We are described as "pigs at the trough" just because we write about the match as we see it, and want to try to understand what was going wrong. A thread about the match has been turned into a thread about this board.

Can I suggest that people who do not want to read arguments about the strengths and weaknesses of the Walsall players, and do not want to share and exchange opinions about how the team could be improved, should avoid the All About Walsall part of this site? I really do not understand why they think they should attempt to close down discussion or simply be abusive to those who are taking part in it.

Fantastic post

I also agree

[Whitti Steve]

Haven't read much of this thread - FWIW here are my thoughts...

I have only seen the 2 home games thus far as I have been away, we appear to be a little more attacking in our formation, but are making basic errors which are costing us more this season than last. Yesterday, no-one have a great game, must have been a struggle for the sponsors to pick anyone.

Their first goal took a wicked deflection (some people around me didn;t see it - so I hope I am right for Ince's sake!), the second - I will be interested to see if it was over the line??? The least said about the third the better, nightmare pass from Wrack, then a ridiculous challenge from Ropes - would have been better (as we were already losing) to let the guy try to score - but having said that - Wracky owe's him an apology!!!

I thought Swansea were the better team before we went down to 10 men - but once that happened there was no coming back.

We created more chances yesterday in one game than we did in 3 or 4 at a time last season. Last years "Entertainment" seekers should be a little happier IMO this season, but so far it isn't bringing results. I personally hope we keep trying like this and that it bears fruit (sooner rather than later) but I wouldn't mind betting that DD will start to "shut up shop" if it doesn't soon.

[Cheesebag]

bernies last post was possibly his best yet. why stiffle discussion and hide behind the truth that we are probably not good enough to compete for the higher places in this league. as for daves comments about idiots. they know who they are and you are not one of them. I said before the season started that with ou current squad we would struggle but I would wait until the manager had completed his squad before making my final assessment. unfortately nothing has changed from what has been bought in thus far.
as for the pigs in the trough line...priceless. aint loffed so much in ages.

[sack]

Top post that man, you are spot on fellha.

The Stop Moaning and Get Behind the Lads crowd have put their heads above the parapet.

There are many obvious reasons for wanting Walsall to start playing well and winning but in addition to all of them there is the hope that we do not have a repeat of this board of two years ago.

In 2005/06 we were playing badly and being led by an idiot who made mistake after mistake, but on this board the dominant theme of a number of posters was that we should never post any criticisms of the team or its management because that is just negative. There were threads in which a number of different views about what was going wrong were being discussed, opinions about players were being exchanged, and reasonable arguments with different theories about how we could improve were challenged. Unfortunately those threads were frequently hijacked by people who did not want to discuss the relative merits of the players or the management, but instead just wanted to attack those of us who were writing about what was going wrong.

This is a thread about our performance against Swansea. A range of views about the players has been put, and it is always interesting to see how different people saw the game. It really does make me re-assess my opinons when I read a well argued case for the opposite position on a player. Some people think Roper played really badly, but it was interesting to read PH defend him. What is wrong with putting forward an opinion and waiting to see if others agree or disagree?

Unfortunately the exchange of views on players and tactics has been interrupted by some who are not posting in order to take part in the discussion, but in an attempt to put an end to it. We are described as "pigs at the trough" just because we write about the match as we see it, and want to try to understand what was going wrong. A thread about the match has been turned into a thread about this board.

Can I suggest that people who do not want to read arguments about the strengths and weaknesses of the Walsall players, and do not want to share and exchange opinions about how the team could be improved, should avoid the All About Walsall part of this site? I really do not understand why they think they should attempt to close down discussion or simply be abusive to those who are taking part in it.

[Bernie]

Looking at the goals on TV it seems that in one very crucial decision we were hard done by yesterday.

There is no way that the second goal could have crossed the line, or got anywhere near to crossing the line. The ball hit the post, bounced out then hit Clayton on the back and was bobbling across the face of the goal, just in front of the line. It was cleared by Boertien before it even got near to crossing the line. It must be one of the worst decisions ever. Whoever is in charge of League One referees should look at that decision and sack that linesman.

Goals change matches and it should be remembered how good we were at the start of that match. I am not pessimistic about this season and still expect us to pull clear of the relegation zone pretty quickly.

[Pedagogue]

I totally concur with Bernie. It is VERY annoying when people have to add a gratuitous insult to their post, if they disagree with an opinion. Why not just try to rebut or refute an argument by presenting a counter-opinion or, better still, facts? At the same time, accept that other people will hold different opinions to yourself and, if necessary, agree to disagree. There is no need to label people "happy clappers" or "doom and gloom merchants, like pigs in the trough", etc.

[SaigonSaddler]

The Stop Moaning and Get Behind the Lads crowd have put their heads above the parapet.

There are many obvious reasons for wanting Walsall to start playing well and winning but in addition to all of them there is the hope that we do not have a repeat of this board of two years ago.

In 2005/06 we were playing badly and being led by an idiot who made mistake after mistake, but on this board the dominant theme of a number of posters was that we should never post any criticisms of the team or its management because that is just negative. There were threads in which a number of different views about what was going wrong were being discussed, opinions about players were being exchanged, and reasonable arguments with different theories about how we could improve were challenged. Unfortunately those threads were frequently hijacked by people who did not want to discuss the relative merits of the players or the management, but instead just wanted to attack those of us who were writing about what was going wrong.

This is a thread about our performance against Swansea. A range of views about the players has been put, and it is always interesting to see how different people saw the game. It really does make me re-assess my opinons when I read a well argued case for the opposite position on a player. Some people think Roper played really badly, but it was interesting to read PH defend him. What is wrong with putting forward an opinion and waiting to see if others agree or disagree?

Unfortunately the exchange of views on players and tactics has been interrupted by some who are not posting in order to take part in the discussion, but in an attempt to put an end to it. We are described as "pigs at the trough" just because we write about the match as we see it, and want to try to understand what was going wrong. A thread about the match has been turned into a thread about this board.

Can I suggest that people who do not want to read arguments about the strengths and weaknesses of the Walsall players, and do not want to share and exchange opinions about how the team could be improved, should avoid the All About Walsall part of this site? I really do not understand why they think they should attempt to close down discussion or simply be abusive to those who are taking part in it.

It's one thing for a cool analysis of a player in a certain position and to post an assessment of how well he/she played.

It's quite another to dissolve into desolation because we have lost to a couple of teams. But fear not, there are enough level headed supporters to maintain their position above the parapet and take a defeat against a decent, established side that have been gunning for promotion for a few seasons. Swansea appear to be better than us and have proved it twice this season.

So what? Hardly a signal to man the lifeboats and flap about in the water like so many decapitated chickens......

I would say to the waiverers, the panic mongers, and the impatient to give the team a few games to settle and then make a judgement. I would say that judgements like 'we're doomed' after facing three opponents, only one of which deserved to beat us is a little premature.

But maybe life up on the parapet, supporting the team and its staff with constancy and resolution has effected my reasoning.......

[LancsSaddler]

Fox - couple of nice runs , would like to see more of him in a central midfield role , the Dobon/ Sonner in midfield is not working and Wrack is not the answer.

I don't think he should be ruled out this early. The only chances he's had to play there this season have been when we've been losing and chasing the game. I'd be tempted to give him a start. After all, Money has all but admitted things aren't right in there by taking Dobson off 2 games in a row.

Wrack's done nothing to justify selection anywhere on the pitch for about five years. Surely the last thing we want to be doing is putting him somewhere where his posing can do any more damage than it did today.

so very glad someone else feels exactly the same as me , 1 good season when he first joined us .he's still living off that.

yeah thats right, because im sure that Money was watching walsall 10 years ago and thats why hes picking wrack.......

[Banksy1987]

All saddlers fans should look at it this way.... we were shocking and deserved nothing out the game they looked a league above us all game they were sharper and more intelegent with the ball, we were lacklustre..... very worrying to watch in my opinion..... FACT.

[Purple Toucan Saddler]

All saddlers fans should look at it this way.... we were shocking and deserved nothing out the game they looked a league above us all game they were sharper and more intelegent with the ball, we were lacklustre..... very worrying to watch in my opinion..... FACT.

How empty is your glass as it seems to only have dreggs left.

We were all over them at the start. One nil up, almost two.

Weston backing off gave them a chance to get the deflected shot in to score, and that's when they took hold of the game, but we gave as good as we got.

I think if you saw the stats, it would show it was a far closer game then you are making out.

On another day, Butler would have scored a hatrick with the clean cut chances he had

[ws3]

All saddlers fans should look at it this way.... we were shocking and deserved nothing out the game they looked a league above us all game they were sharper and more intelegent with the ball, we were lacklustre..... very worrying to watch in my opinion..... FACT.

How empty is your glass as it seems to only have dreggs left.

We were all over them at the start. One nil up, almost two.

Weston backing off gave them a chance to get the deflected shot in to score, and that's when they took hold of the game, but we gave as good as we got.

I think if you saw the stats, it would show it was a far closer game then you are making out.

On another day, Butler would have scored a hatrick with the clean cut chances he had

Phew thank god for that.

And here was me thinking we lost the game and only have one point to our name.

[fensaddler]

Grim as yesterday's result was, I'd look at the match this way. Early on, we were the better side. We looked good, and confident, and had Swansea on the back foot. Could easily have been 2-0 up in 10 minutes, and then it would have been a different game, Their first goal came from their first attack, but even after that we were still in it. Then the refereee and linesman intervened, and they were shocking. A series of 50-50 decisions started to go against us, as well as some downright bad decisions that were just plain wrong (our players getting penalised for everything, their players getting away with everything). Then Scotland dives on the edge of the box to get Roper booked destroys his confidence, and cements the view amongst most of the players that they are not going to get a fair crack today. The second goal, and the dubious decision to give it, just cements that. We were never really in it after that because collectively, the team had got the jitters. The game was not determined by 11 against 11 on the pitch, but by poor officials.

Swansea weren't a bad side at all, they had some good players, and ther speed of movement showed us up at times - especially in comparison to our inability to do so - though we were able to do it early on, which brings me back to what I said above. Overall, Ince had a poor game by his standards, and Roper had one of those games he has always been capable of, where his timing and decision making are all over the place. Wrack was poor, likewise Dobson. Ishy was good, and Hall for me also had a decent game, though he lacks pace. Liked what I saw of Sonko, poor tackles aside.

Not sure what this all bodes for the season ahead, though inevitably with only one point on the board, I'm concered to improve and actually see a game where our positive play gets the reward it deserves. We can compete at this level - I think.

[Geordiesaddler]

The Stop Moaning and Get Behind the Lads crowd have put their heads above the parapet.

There are many obvious reasons for wanting Walsall to start playing well and winning but in addition to all of them there is the hope that we do not have a repeat of this board of two years ago.

In 2005/06 we were playing badly and being led by an idiot who made mistake after mistake, but on this board the dominant theme of a number of posters was that we should never post any criticisms of the team or its management because that is just negative. There were threads in which a number of different views about what was going wrong were being discussed, opinions about players were being exchanged, and reasonable arguments with different theories about how we could improve were challenged. Unfortunately those threads were frequently hijacked by people who did not want to discuss the relative merits of the players or the management, but instead just wanted to attack those of us who were writing about what was going wrong.

This is a thread about our performance against Swansea. A range of views about the players has been put, and it is always interesting to see how different people saw the game. It really does make me re-assess my opinons when I read a well argued case for the opposite position on a player. Some people think Roper played really badly, but it was interesting to read PH defend him. What is wrong with putting forward an opinion and waiting to see if others agree or disagree?

Unfortunately the exchange of views on players and tactics has been interrupted by some who are not posting in order to take part in the discussion, but in an attempt to put an end to it. We are described as "pigs at the trough" just because we write about the match as we see it, and want to try to understand what was going wrong. A thread about the match has been turned into a thread about this board.

Can I suggest that people who do not want to read arguments about the strengths and weaknesses of the Walsall players, and do not want to share and exchange opinions about how the team could be improved, should avoid the All About Walsall part of this site? I really do not understand why they think they should attempt to close down discussion or simply be abusive to those who are taking part in it.

What a laughable post.

Firstly, and predictably you are fundementally wrong in what you say. The over-riding theme of this board in the early days of the relegation season was not one of undying support for Merson. Myself, Neil R, and quite a few others where the first to publically voice the opinion that Merson was a complete sham of a manager that would get us relegated, in fact those opinions were being stated on here a full 12 months earlier if you care to indulge your favourite passtime and trawl the archives.

We are 3 games into the season and yes there are obvious concerns but there are also plenty of positives.

What rankles with me, what bores me stiff, and makes this board's discussions all the poorer is the way that certain posters take EVERY opportunity to hyjack whatever thread to bang on about their favourite hobby horse. With you Bernie its the number of starts Ishy made LAST season. Can you try and post something on THIS season's mach thread without referring to this?

Ishy started yesterday by the way, yet you still manage to turn this into a moan about his number of starts LAST season, staggering IMO.

In case you didn't notice by the way, he did (according to the commentators I was listening to) start brilliantly but then faded and had to be subbed due to cramp. Of course you don't mention anything about this because it doesn't suit your entrenched stance.

As for the general situation at Walsall Fc I am, concerns noted, pretty happy with the direction we are going in, and based on what I've seen I think we will be ok this season - if that's alright with you of course. If we fail to beat Gillingham and Port Vale I will be very concerned.

My biggest concern yesteday is that a mere 4,400 members of the Walsall public could be bothered to turn up. How long before we are getting sub 4,000 gates? People moaned last season because we were winning but playing boring football, now the moan is that the football is much better to watch but we arn't winning. meanwhile on here the character assasinations have started, Threads started about players from people that basically can't wait to have a pop at their personal hate figure - a misplaced pass, a missed chance and up they pop. IMO that's not fertile interesting discussion, its vindictive, facile waffle.

No-doubt you will now post that this is a message board and that it doesn't have any effect on the matchday support for the players, well we were booed off at half-time at Carlisle, had incidence of abuse directed at players at Orient, and were booed off yesterday by some of the 4,400 - that is to say the attendance that was some 20% down on the previous one. I actually think the players and manager deserve better than this at his stage, that's MY opinion for what its worth.

[Stu]

Don't be soft, the game was not determined by officials at all.

It was determined by one team taking their chances and another team not taking their chances.

They were some minor decisions that the ref got wrong, but he and his assistants got the big decisions right. It was over the line, it was a professional foul, red card and penalty.

The Officials had no bearing on that game at all, if Roper's confidence is damaged by a yellow card then he should be sold as he is a centre half and has to take yellow cards (I thought it was a quite clear yellow card mind you).

Yesterday's game was decided by ability to take chances, quite clear.

[Bernie]

It's one thing for a cool analysis of a player in a certain position and to post an assessment of how well he/she played.

It's quite another to dissolve into desolation because we have lost to a couple of teams. But fear not, there are enough level headed supporters to maintain their position above the parapet and take a defeat against a decent, established side that have been gunning for promotion for a few seasons. Swansea appear to be better than us and have proved it twice this season.

So what? Hardly a signal to man the lifeboats and flap about in the water like so many decapitated chickens......

I would say to the waiverers, the panic mongers, and the impatient to give the team a few games to settle and then make a judgement. I would say that judgements like 'we're doomed' after facing three opponents, only one of which deserved to beat us is a little premature.

But maybe life up on the parapet, supporting the team and its staff with constancy and resolution has effected my reasoning.......

Saigon, I am sure you know all about ad hominem arguments, which is summarised as playing the man instead of the ball. When someone posts something that we disagree with there is always the temptation to reply on the lines of "Well you would say that wouldn't you - you're just a happy-clapper/ panic-monger / headless-chicken/ pig-in-a-trough" instead of pointing out the error in the argument they are using.

There really is no need to change discussions from being about the team to being about the poster. Many people would agree that it is too early to start panicking about our prospects this season, but that argument can be made without characterising those who are worried as impatient, panic-monging, headless chickens. Those sort of insults tend to cause threads to degenerate into name-calling.

[Geordiesaddler]

Don't be soft, the game was not determined by officials at all.

It was determined by one team taking their chances and another team not taking their chances.

They were some minor decisions that the ref got wrong, but he and his assistants got the big decisions right. It was over the line, it was a professional foul, red card and penalty.

The Officials had no bearing on that game at all, if Roper's confidence is damaged by a yellow card then he should be sold as he is a centre half and has to take yellow cards (I thought it was a quite clear yellow card mind you).

Yesterday's game was decided by ability to take chances, quite clear.

I'm with you on that Stu, and of course you can add the Orient game into the bargain. In a few weeks time we will win a game and everyone will be moaning we were "lucky", these things happen and more often than not, the "luck" is down to errors that are capitalised upon.

However, to look at the positives at least we are creating chances, and our favoured front two are yet to start a game together, yet alone get a few games under their belts.

I honestly don't know why DD dropped Gerrard to bring Roper in, I think he's made an error of judgement on this one and it cost us yesterday by the sounds of it.

[Geordiesaddler]

It's one thing for a cool analysis of a player in a certain position and to post an assessment of how well he/she played.

It's quite another to dissolve into desolation because we have lost to a couple of teams. But fear not, there are enough level headed supporters to maintain their position above the parapet and take a defeat against a decent, established side that have been gunning for promotion for a few seasons. Swansea appear to be better than us and have proved it twice this season.

So what? Hardly a signal to man the lifeboats and flap about in the water like so many decapitated chickens......

I would say to the waiverers, the panic mongers, and the impatient to give the team a few games to settle and then make a judgement. I would say that judgements like 'we're doomed' after facing three opponents, only one of which deserved to beat us is a little premature.

But maybe life up on the parapet, supporting the team and its staff with constancy and resolution has effected my reasoning.......

Saigon, I am sure you know all about ad hominem arguments, which is summarised as playing the man instead of the ball. When someone posts something that we disagree with there is always the temptation to reply on the lines of "Well you would say that wouldn't you - you're just a happy-clapper/ panic-monger / headless-chicken/ pig-in-a-trough" instead of pointing out the error in the argument they are using.

There really is no need to change discussions from being about the team to being about the poster. Many people would agree that it is too early to start panicking about our prospects this season, but that argument can be made without characterising those who are worried as impatient, panic-monging, headless chickens. Those sort of insults tend to cause threads to degenerate into name-calling.

Ok Bernie, next week we play Gillingham, let's see if you can post on the match thread without mentioning Ishy's lack of starts last season and then maybe people will refrain from saying "well you always say that don't you?"

[Graydon48]

I'm always amazed when defenders haul down players who are clean through on goal.
Surley its better to let them go through, most times they've still got to get past the keeper which is probably a harder task the a free shot from the penalty spot.
Bring them down, penatly and down to ten men.
Let them through worst case senario they score but at least you still have 11 players on the pitch.

[Bernie]

Ok Bernie, next week we play Gillingham, let's see if you can post on the match thread without mentioning Ishy's lack of starts last season and then maybe people will refrain from saying "well you always say that don't you?"

Well let's see if you can post without insulting those who disagree with you.

[gray]

I'm always amazed when defenders haul down players who are clean through on goal.
Surley its better to let them go through, most times they've still got to get past the keeper which is probably a harder task the a free shot from the penalty spot.
Bring them down, penatly and down to ten men.
Let them through worst case senario they score but at least you still have 11 players on the pitch.

yep completely agree. I only hope that Roper actually thought he was going to win the ball but I really can't see it. It was a terrible foul. He might have missed, Ince might have made an amazing save and even if he had scored we would have had a better chance of coming back into the game with 11 men. Plus we have to replace him for 3 games now.

Wrack and Roper should have received a real rollocking by DD.

[Stu]

Don't be soft, the game was not determined by officials at all. It was determined by one team taking their chances and another team not taking their chances. They were some minor decisions that the ref got wrong, but he and his assistants got the big decisions right. It was over the line, it was a professional foul, red card and penalty. The Officials had no bearing on that game at all, if Roper's confidence is damaged by a yellow card then he should be sold as he is a centre half and has to take yellow cards (I thought it was a quite clear yellow card mind you). Yesterday's game was decided by ability to take chances, quite clear.

I'm with you on that Stu, and of course you can add the Orient game into the bargain. In a few weeks time we will win a game and everyone will be moaning we were "lucky", these things happen and more often than not, the "luck" is down to errors that are capitalised upon.

However, to look at the positives at least we are creating chances, and our favoured front two are yet to start a game together, yet alone get a few games under their belts.

I honestly don't know why DD dropped Gerrard to bring Roper in, I think he's made an error of judgement on this one and it cost us yesterday by the sounds of it.

Roper doesn't look fit to be honest, he looked shattered after half an hour yesterday, hands on hips huffing like I do after a visit to the gym.

Yesterday was all about chances. Folk saying we were awful yesterday and the comment that it was as bad as anything we've seen in 19/20 years is beyond belief. We were okay, not bad, not good, just okay which wasn't good enough at the end of the day.

We created a lot of chances yesterday, agreed, but to be honest I doubt we'll see a more suspect defence this season. They really were dire at the back and the fact we could only score once shows where we need to improve.

But, we can see what we need to improve upon which is a good sign in itself. We have to learn to defend against pace and movement without putting 9 men behind the ball, as when we block them out, we have no pace, no movement and nothing to counter attack with. I know I said it pre-season, but the need for pace, movement and energy is quite clear at this level. That has been the sole difference between us and the teams we've played so far in my view (bar Orient, who were just awful, as were we).

As said, the real crunch is the next 2 games. We've got to go to Gills and compete and we must beat Vale at home. They will be a good measure of where we really are.

[SWS1]

I'm always amazed when defenders haul down players who are clean through on goal.
Surley its better to let them go through, most times they've still got to get past the keeper which is probably a harder task the a free shot from the penalty spot.
Bring them down, penatly and down to ten men.
Let them through worst case senario they score but at least you still have 11 players on the pitch.

Agree with you Graydon48 but, in the vast majority of cases, I ASSUME that the defender is actually trying to make a tackle - i.e. get a piece of the ball - and simply doesn't succeed. It may be - well, it definitely was yesterday - a misjudgement but I don't think Rope's intention was simply to play the man. He thought he could get something on the ball and failed! It's as simple as that. He didn't "haul down" the man. He made a rash tackle and took the man. I'm sure (well, fairly sure) professional footballers mostly know NOT to simply take out the player and get sent off. Getting it wrong is not good, but it's obviously not as stupid as simply playing the man.

[Geordiesaddler]

Ok Bernie, next week we play Gillingham, let's see if you can post on the match thread without mentioning Ishy's lack of starts last season and then maybe people will refrain from saying "well you always say that don't you?"

Well let's see if you can post without insulting those who disagree with you.

Oh FFS stop being so beedin' precious. I havn't insulted anyone, the line like pigs at the trough was a general comment not an insult. Anyone who has ever travelled to a game with me will confirm that I get very excited when passing the pig farm just north of York, I absolutely love them.

You seem to have a real problem letting things go Bernie, and its a shame because it undermines your contribution to the discussion

[Duke]

I honestly don't know why DD dropped Gerrard to bring Roper in, I think he's made an error of judgement on this one and it cost us yesterday by the sounds of it.

There's no bigger fan of Roper on here than me , Roper is notouriously a slow starter season , but to fair to Gerrard he hasn't done a lot wrong , maybe DD's timing was wrong bringing Roper in to soon.
having said that i feel Roper and Dann are our best central defensive partnership.

[SaigonSaddler]

It's one thing for a cool analysis of a player in a certain position and to post an assessment of how well he/she played.

It's quite another to dissolve into desolation because we have lost to a couple of teams. But fear not, there are enough level headed supporters to maintain their position above the parapet and take a defeat against a decent, established side that have been gunning for promotion for a few seasons. Swansea appear to be better than us and have proved it twice this season.

So what? Hardly a signal to man the lifeboats and flap about in the water like so many decapitated chickens......

I would say to the waiverers, the panic mongers, and the impatient to give the team a few games to settle and then make a judgement. I would say that judgements like 'we're doomed' after facing three opponents, only one of which deserved to beat us is a little premature.

But maybe life up on the parapet, supporting the team and its staff with constancy and resolution has effected my reasoning.......

Saigon, I am sure you know all about ad hominem arguments, which is summarised as playing the man instead of the ball. When someone posts something that we disagree with there is always the temptation to reply on the lines of "Well you would say that wouldn't you - you're just a happy-clapper/ panic-monger / headless-chicken/ pig-in-a-trough" instead of pointing out the error in the argument they are using.

There really is no need to change discussions from being about the team to being about the poster. Many people would agree that it is too early to start panicking about our prospects this season, but that argument can be made without characterising those who are worried as impatient, panic-monging, headless chickens. Those sort of insults tend to cause threads to degenerate into name-calling.

Yeah poo-poo pants!












:wink:

[Plastic Hawk]

Fox - couple of nice runs , would like to see more of him in a central midfield role , the Dobon/ Sonner in midfield is not working and Wrack is not the answer.

I don't think he should be ruled out this early. The only chances he's had to play there this season have been when we've been losing and chasing the game. I'd be tempted to give him a start. After all, Money has all but admitted things aren't right in there by taking Dobson off 2 games in a row.

Wrack's done nothing to justify selection anywhere on the pitch for about five years. Surely the last thing we want to be doing is putting him somewhere where his posing can do any more damage than it did today.

so very glad someone else feels exactly the same as me , 1 good season when he first joined us .he's still living off that.

Sorry, nonsense.

Sound's like he must be very good at pulling the wool over succesive managers eye's

I think he had more than one decent season, but the good ones are years ago now. Under Lee he was one of our most effective players In the Championship. But by the time that he got his last contract (which was for three years) he was coasting and injury prone. It'd have been better for both parties if he'd moved on then (new challenge for Wrack and a new, hungrier, possibly cheaper player for Walsall). I'm not sure that a manager who wasn't one of his best mates would have re-signed him - and certainly not for more than a year.

As for Money, I'm not sure that he is pulling the wool over his eyes - he didn't play much at all last season. But he's got to be on decent money compared to most of the rest of the squad. With our limited resources it's difficult for DD to ignore anyone earning that kind of money for any length of time. This seaon he's mostly been used as a utility player to fill in where people are unavailable. That's hardly the kind of role DD would give to someone he rated as one of his key players.

[DawleyDick]

Why did Weston get all that abuse from the Swansea crowd? Did he once play for them or, even worse, did he play for Cardiff.