Carlisle (H) League 1- Saturday 11th August 2007

[Geordiesaddler]

The usual suspects have arrived with their Stop Moaning and Get Behind the Lads baloney.

All the so called "negative" posts I have read have simply reflected what was a very mixed perfomance. For the first forty-five minutes of the season we had very little possession of the ball in the opposition half.

Those people who dared to mention that have obviously commited some sort of crime against humanity.

Nicholls played 14 first team games for Burton from February onwards - it is a bit odd to say that he is "fresh" from a broken leg. Incidentally almost all those appearances for Burton were on the wing.

It is simply silly to say that there is no evidence to suggest that it was not the best thing for Ishmel and Walsall to leave him out for 49 matches last season. What sort of evidence could there be? There are strong arguments that it was a bad thing for Walsall - based on the Ishmel's proven ability and the way those chosen ahead of him performed. Also, talented young players improve by being tested against the best opposition possible - so it could be that Ishmel has missed out during a vital year of his football education. Those arguments are not evidence of course, and nobody will ever know who was right.

Absolute tosh, already answered by the winning of the league and the fact that Ishy has signed a new deal. Show me one shred of evidence that our selection policy last season including that relating to Ishy had 1) A detrimental effect on our league position, or 2) Ishy's footballing development at Walsall FC.

I think the fact Nicholls, and Deeney came on yesterday shows DD's intent this season, he would have used Ishmel saturday no doubt at some point, but that is neither here nor there as it happens.

The main aim last season was promotion, we had a good start, and it became achievable, which is why Money played it safe.
Will be different this time, unless of course we are nearer the top than we expect

Which is what annoys me BS, people choose to ignore what is before their eyeballs because it doesn't fit their pre-constructed conspiracy theory, yet the first random thing that happens, you can guarantee they will be on here chanting their mantra.

[Bernie]

Geordie, you are simply repeating the same fallacious reasoning:

Walsall won the championship last season, Richard Money was the manager, therefore all Richard Money's decisions about team selection, tactics and purchase of players must be correct. Anyone who suggests that he could have made any mistakes last season is therefore by definition wrong.

Do you really not see what is wrong with attempting to close down debate with such an argument?

[We-ARE-Walsall]

Geordie, you are simply repeating the same fallacious reasoning:

Walsall won the championship last season, Richard Money was the manager, therefore all Richard Money's decisions about team selection, tactics and purchase of players must be correct. Anyone who suggests that he could have made any mistakes last season is therefore by definition wrong.

Do you really not see what is wrong with attempting to close down debate with such an argument?

You confuse me Bernie, you really do,

You always make a decent point, but you contradict yourself so much it is unreal, I never know quite where you stand

[Registered Saddler]

Geordie, you are simply repeating the same fallacious reasoning:

Walsall won the championship last season, Richard Money was the manager, therefore all Richard Money's decisions about team selection, tactics and purchase of players must be correct. Anyone who suggests that he could have made any mistakes last season is therefore by definition wrong.

Do you really not see what is wrong with attempting to close down debate with such an argument?

No, your reasoning is that any opposition to your criticism is wrong because Richard Money is not infallible. Every comment on what happened last season must be seen in the light of the fact that we won the title. Our ultimate aim was achieved and any mistakes that may or may not have been made pale into insignificance against that fact. You criticise DD for not playing Ishy more last season. This is what Geordie's response was:
1. Did it harm the team? No, we won the title. Unless you suggest that we should have won the title by more points, but that would just be churlish.
2. Did it harm Ishy's progress? We don't know. There is no evidence to suggest that it has. The evidence we do have (his frequent appearances in pre-season, his two-year contract) is that he will be used more this year although probably still from the bench. Any suggestion that his progression is being stunted is pure guesswork, because I have yet to see a shred of evidence to support your view.

[Geordiesaddler]

Geordie, you are simply repeating the same fallacious reasoning:

Walsall won the championship last season, Richard Money was the manager, therefore all Richard Money's decisions about team selection, tactics and purchase of players must be correct. Anyone who suggests that he could have made any mistakes last season is therefore by definition wrong.

Do you really not see what is wrong with attempting to close down debate with such an argument?

No, your reasoning is that any opposition to your criticism is wrong because Richard Money is not infallible. Every comment on what happened last season must be seen in the light of the fact that we won the title. Our ultimate aim was achieved and any mistakes that may or may not have been made pale into insignificance against that fact. You criticise DD for not playing Ishy more last season. This is what Geordie's response was:
1. Did it harm the team? No, we won the title. Unless you suggest that we should have won the title by more points, but that would just be churlish.
2. Did it harm Ishy's progress? We don't know. There is no evidence to suggest that it has. The evidence we do have (his frequent appearances in pre-season, his two-year contract) is that he will be used more this year although probably still from the bench. Any suggestion that his progression is being stunted is pure guesswork, because I have yet to see a shred of evidence to support your view.

Exactly, and despite being asked for evidence to support his opinion Bernie as usual just comes up with more opinion, this time backed up with a rather childish and inacurate spoof of my opinion of DD.

I do think like all people DD has made mistakes, and I expect him to make others in the future. I will however view his mistakes in the context of his wider performance in his role.

In terms of the specific issue of Ishy, no I don't think DD has made mistakes, I think he has and is handling the situation to the best of his ability and as a supporter I am very happy with the situation.

I am going to Orient next week, and am thoroughly looking forward to seeing Ishy play, likely as a sub, but hopefully making an impact once we have drawn the home-teams sting with our excellent defence, organisation, fitness, and passing ability.

[Jolly Johnny]

As most people seem to think and have said on here, it certainly was a game of two halves yesterday. At the end though I was left feeling pretty encouraged, Carlisle aren't the worst team we'll play against this season and, in the second half at least, we showed we can compete, play some good stuff and this was with one or two who might start in our ideal first XI missing yesterday.

Ince - Bit of a dodgy start, two iffy kicks but overall did okay. Second half particuarly he claimed the ball well in his area and positioned himself well in goal. You could argue that he was at fault partly for the goal as he was hesitant, and if he continued to come out at least he would have narrowed the angle and made the finish harder, but the player was left by others too.

Wrack - Overall pretty good but not MoM in my opinion. First half battled well and worked hard to win the ball but got caught a bit too far forward on one or two occasions which gave their left sided player chances. Second half a lot better and he came forward pretty effectively I thought. If Weston comes back in, I see no reason why he couldn't play a more attacking role in midfield.

Dann - Excellent, read the game very well, composed when he needed to be and generally used the ball well from defense, he really is coming on.

Gerrard - Played very well in the centre of defense too. Had his usual spat with Ince during a game (!) but won a lot in the air and was solid.

Boertien - Did well. Tried to link up with Fox (just not in your own box Paul!!) and overlaps well. Particularly good second half I thought and put some good balls in. Looks like one of our better summer signings already.

Hall - You can see he is an experienced and intelligent footballer. Used the ball pretty well, hardly lost it and got some good balls in, despite not really getting past his defender, although he didn't really have to. Good link up play with Wrack and Sonner when we played with more tempo and urgency in the second half.

Sonner - Good on the ball and worked hard, although it took him 20 mins to get in the game. Was much more effective when he played a further forward midfield role in the second half and it meant we got more of the second ball. This helped us to maintain pressure rather than be chasing back to our own half.

Dobson - As always, goes unnoticed unless you actually watch him but did his job well. Found it harder first half as him and Sonner were cramped together. When he had more room in the second half, it gave him more time and he kept the ball well, passing it well to keep possession (just to show this doesn't always have to be forward, as we saw yesterday!!)

Fox - Overall a good game. Disappointing first half, he didn't really get in the game and came inside a lot to leave Boertien playing more the wider role at times. Lost the ball a bit but second half he was very good and can't remember him doing anything wrong really. Linked up with Boertien well, got some good balls in and when he came inside links up quite well.

Mooney - Superb first league game for us! Lead by example and scored a deserved goal, showing great persistence and experience. Have to agree with others that he can't be the only option in a game and hopefully he won't be. When we played the ball into him on the edge of the box second half he held it up and brought others into the game superbly. Much better use of him than making him chase balls into the corners which he probablt won't get. Instantly a fans favourite!

Caniero - Useful, energetic and showed he is really trying to please. As others have said he needs time to adapt, and learn how to play with the others (got caught in the same space as Mooney at times, although not always his fault) and showed one or two pieces of skill. A goal will really help him.

Subs: Nicholls - lots of pace but seemed a bit nervy. More exposure and chances at this level will see him come on, he could be a useful weapon.

Deeney - not much chance to show what he could do, like Nicholls, with more chances he will come on.


So, 1 game in, could of won it, but am happy with a point. We probably were nervy for the first half, it is a new season after all, and yes there were frustrations, but we showed we can pick it up during a game. The usual DD half time 'chat' and changes worked and we came out for the second half looking much more like a team. We showed that we can play with more tempo and urgency even without the 'pacy' players in the team. Well done boys!

[SheffieldSaddler]

Cant be bothered to read through all the thread but my opinions -
Mooney or Dann match of match by a mile.
Fox - totally useless, left wing, left back, the bloke is a liability, got no sense whatssover on how to position himself on the left of midfield when we are going forward. School boy stuff.
Wrack - the most useless right back I have seen. Never play him in this poisition again please, cause the bloke has no clue or concept whatsoever on how to defend or position himself in order to do it. The people who nominated him to be man of match, shoule be ASHAMED of themselves.
The rest were ok at the best.

[PT]

Cant be bothered to read through all the thread but my opinions -
Mooney or Dann match of match by a mile.
Fox - totally useless, left wing, left back, the bloke is a liability, got no sense whatssover on how to position himself on the left of midfield when we are going forward. School boy stuff.
Wrack - the most useless right back I have seen. Never play him in this poisition again please, cause the bloke has no clue or concept whatsoever on how to defend or position himself in order to do it. The people who nominated him to be man of match, shoule be ASHAMED of themselves.
The rest were ok at the best.

Sheff - have a look who sponsored the game. As I said above, no harm in doing your mates a turn. I didn't think he was that bad but agree on Dann and Mooney.

[KJC]

Their managers views....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... 943274.stm

[big baz 1]

Ince: Not sure about carlise goal maybe could of come out quicker to close gall down.
Wrack: Was superb at right back and weston could have a fight on his hands to play at right back. The bloke who sits next to me hates wracky and was shouting for wracky to be subbed after 3 minutes. I struggle to understand the criticism of wracky sometimes.
Boertin: Quality defender was mint yesterday and is a cut above league 1 .
Dann: Has to be one of the best centre halfs in league 1 , was cool and calm and composed on the ball. Will leave walsall before his contract is up.
Gerrard: Impressed with ant yesterday had a good game and he is getting better and better.
Hall: Worked hard down the right wing worked well together with wracky
Dobbo: Used the ball very well indeed i was impressed again the skipper worked hard.
Tramp: Had a good game passing was good and worked hard to close people down.
Foxy: Worked hard sometimes he kept cutting inside and when maybe he should of been wide left. I would like to foxy play centre midfield against swansea.
Mooney: Superb and took his goal well and he signed my program .
Canerio: Was impressed with him held the ball up well and closed people down .

[WFC_Rob]

With reference to the Ishmel debate, I can't see any argument which fits in with whether or not Ishmel's progress was stalled last season because of a lack of appearances. Ultimately, the success of any individual comes after the success of the club, and that's the way it should be.

[Duke]

Geordie summed up the game perfectly , more positives than negatives , and with more attacking options to come things have certainly improved .

[tinned]

Baz, Wrack superb? :shock: He, perhaps wasn't as bad as some make out, but superb? Nowhere near, mate. First half especially he was caught too far forward and too far infield which gave his man yards of space to attack.

Overall I still fear where anywhere near the number of goals required to keep us safe are going to come from. We just don't create enough chances to give ourselves a realistic chance of scoring more than one a game.

The lack of pace in midfield is still a big issue IMO. In the first half Dobson was basically standing on the toes of Dann & Gerrard. There is way too much gap between the midfield and the front two, which results in us being unable to apply any meaningful pressure.

Fox was just as expected, useless. I could see Boertien almost screaming at Fox to make a run down the wing so he could lay a pass through. What does Fox do? Stand on the touchline, not quite understanding what he's supposed to do. I'm afraid he's out of his depth.

Hall did nothing wrong but failed to take on his man on many occasions. I want to see us get behind the full backs, not lay it back infield.

[Exile]

On Saddlersworld, Mick Kearns was mystified by the MOTM decision, and charitably said that perhaps it was because he did the least wrong in an awful first half.

[We-ARE-Walsall]

Exy, i really can't understand why everyone thinks he was so bad, honestly.

He wasn't man of the match, Sonner or Dann, but he did alright, is he a right back ? No, but he was still a million times better than Pead.

In all honesty he is wasted at right back, i expect him to find a slot in midfield somewhere when/if Weston is fit. Wrack has quality no doubt

[BathSaddler]

Is this one of the longest match threads, ever?

[We-ARE-Walsall]

Is this one of the longest match threads, ever?

Don't think so, but if i mentioned Colin Lee, it could well be :D

[SheffieldSaddler]

Exy, i really can't understand why everyone thinks he was so bad, honestly.

He wasn't man of the match, Sonner or Dann, but he did alright, is he a right back ? No, but he was still a million times better than Pead.

In all honesty he is wasted at right back, i expect him to find a slot in midfield somewhere when/if Weston is fit. Wrack has quality no doubt

Sonner was no where near MOM. He was at the most pretty much average.

Wrack hasnt had quality for years. And I cant see what he can input to the team this year,

[Stu]

Must admit, I thought defensively Wrack was poor, offensively he was good, but I'd rather have had Pead there.

He was exposed time and time and time and time again in the first half, they were playing the same ball every time, dropping it in either behind him or splitting him and Gerrard with Gall running between them or from behind Wrack, as he did for their goal. It took us quite a while to latch on to it as well to be honest.

He did have a better 2nd half though as I think we defended slightly deeper to prevent them from knocking that ball over the top or between centre half and full back.

[Cannock]

Blimey tinned, it would appear we went to the same match. Good comments.

[Exile]

Is this one of the longest match threads, ever?

Only three seasons ago we never broke 100 posts on a match thread, and I'd surprised if we had less than 100 on every game this season - a sign of the times!

[WFC_Rob]

Is this one of the longest match threads, ever?

Only three seasons ago we never broke 100 posts on a match thread, and I'd surprised if we had less than 100 on every game this season - a sign of the times!

Yeah but 3 years ago, 'Merson out' was generally all there was to say on a match thread. :lol:

[Exile]

Is this one of the longest match threads, ever?

Only three seasons ago we never broke 100 posts on a match thread, and I'd surprised if we had less than 100 on every game this season - a sign of the times!

Yeah but 3 years ago, 'Merson out' was generally all there was to say on a match thread. :lol:

That and the obligatory "but Lee spent all the budget" from his mates.

[We-ARE-Walsall]

Exy, i really can't understand why everyone thinks he was so bad, honestly.

He wasn't man of the match, Sonner or Dann, but he did alright, is he a right back ? No, but he was still a million times better than Pead.

In all honesty he is wasted at right back, i expect him to find a slot in midfield somewhere when/if Weston is fit. Wrack has quality no doubt

Sonner was no where near MOM. He was at the most pretty much average.

Wrack hasnt had quality for years. And I cant see what he can input to the team this year,

You watch an odd game :D

Sonner never wasted a pass all afternoon, thought you would like him, seeing as he was one of your favourite signings

[post moderated - language / innuendo :roll: ]

Sorry Exy baby. I am on the thinnest of thin Ice :cry:

[tinned]

Blimey tinned, it would appear we went to the same match. Good comments.

Cheers Cannock. Perhaps you won't refer to me as "the head" in future :wink:

[leics_saddler]

To come out with a 1-1 from a match I had as a nailed on loss is a bonus really.
It really was the worst possible first match out of the hat, given our first day form, which is variable to say the least.

Anyway, a far more realistic assessment of the team will be made after the Orient match.
This is the sort of place where we need to turn up and play confidently, expecting to get a result.

[Registered Saddler]

Must admit, I thought defensively Wrack was poor, offensively he was good, but I'd rather have had Pead there.

He was exposed time and time and time and time again in the first half, they were playing the same ball every time, dropping it in either behind him or splitting him and Gerrard with Gall running between them or from behind Wrack, as he did for their goal. It took us quite a while to latch on to it as well to be honest.

He did have a better 2nd half though as I think we defended slightly deeper to prevent them from knocking that ball over the top or between centre half and full back.

I know criticism of Dann is considered as sacrilegious as praise for Merson, but it wasn't Gerrard playing alongside Wrack, it was Dann. I thought we did a lot better in the second half defensively when Dann was able to come across and clear up behind Wrack, which he wasn't doing in the first 45.

Leics - I don't expect us to get a result at Leyton Orient, I expect them to finish at least as high up as Carlisle this season. They had an excellent win at Southend on Saturday and I would be delighted if we could get a draw from Brisbane Road.

[Stu]

Must admit, I thought defensively Wrack was poor, offensively he was good, but I'd rather have had Pead there.

He was exposed time and time and time and time again in the first half, they were playing the same ball every time, dropping it in either behind him or splitting him and Gerrard with Gall running between them or from behind Wrack, as he did for their goal. It took us quite a while to latch on to it as well to be honest.

He did have a better 2nd half though as I think we defended slightly deeper to prevent them from knocking that ball over the top or between centre half and full back.

I know criticism of Dann is considered as sacrilegious as praise for Merson, but it wasn't Gerrard playing alongside Wrack, it was Dann. I thought we did a lot better in the second half defensively when Dann was able to come across and clear up behind Wrack, which he wasn't doing in the first 45.

Leics - I don't expect us to get a result at Leyton Orient, I expect them to finish at least as high up as Carlisle this season. They had an excellent win at Southend on Saturday and I would be delighted if we could get a draw from Brisbane Road.

Not for the goal and numerous other balls through I saw, Dann played the left of the two in the first half, unless my eyes are playing tricks on me.

[Magic Man Fan]

As ever I try not to read many comments on the match thread before making mine.

I'm sure they will be plenty of negative comments above as I heard them all at half time. In future please let me get on with my pint in peace and you can wallow in your own negativity.

Those who pay attention to games will note DD has a plan this season and I have repeatedly said it throughout the last few weeks and it was proven. That plan is to soak up pressure in the first half, try to keep it tight then come out with our superior fitness and go at teams in the second half. We've done it in most of the pre-season games.

The difference in this league is that Gall took his goal very well from what wasn't an easy chance (made far easier from Ince's hesitation though). In League 2 that would have been hit over the stand so we need to be more alert to stay level at half time. Having said that Carlisle are definitely not 'run of the mill' side, they were pacy, incisive and moved the ball quickly and will be challenging for promotion. Many other sides won't be.

In summary of the first half, some are going to have to be patient this season. As I tried to point out at half time, some people seem to have rose tinted ideas of last season. There were several games where we were far worse than that in the 1st half but we won the league. People were making up things to suit their argument. People were saying we were never going to score and just as I argued we'll see a different performance in the second and a goal, Mooney scored.

I also predicted DD will use the young players this season so I was not surprised to see Nicholls and Deeney bought on far earlier than he would have dared last season. I am quite happy for us to try to keep things tight if we see the youngsters change the game.

Unfortunately Ishy was suspended, if he wasn't we'd have won that and we will win many other games with the same style of play and tactic.

Ince - Forget Wrack, it was Ince's fault for the goal. He started to leave his line then stopped putting himself in the position to make it easiest for Gall to score. Otherwise excellent handling and a good game but usual suspect kicking.

Wrack - I don't understand the criticism. He was fit, played well with the odd error against a good player and had a couple of runs in the second half that we haven't seen from him for a few years. I agree with Dave that he was reluctant to release Nicholls at times which I didn't understand. Not my MOTM but close.

Dann - Different class, will be gone in January.

Gerrard - Played well and again linked up well with Dann.

Boertien - Carried on with his impressive pre-season form. Hard tackling, composed and good going forward.

Hall - I wasn't bothered about his age when he re-signed and I'm still glad he's in the squad but I think as the season goes on Wrack or Nicholls is more likely to be there. His crossing is good but he isn't as good as Mark Wright.

Dobson - Played well. Simple things done well, too much confusion with Sonner in the first half meant they both sat deep and we wasted opportunities when someone should have been supporting Mooney from his knock downs on the edge of the box.

Sonner - I've been very impressed with him in pre-season and hie was good again. Very accurate passing, both long and short and not afraid to get stuck in. No signs of age hindering him. My MOTM and I didn't think I'd be saying that when he signed again.

Fox - Didn't really do a lot wrong but not doing what a winger/left midfielder should be. He doesn't seem to understand that he shouldn't be stuck on the half way line instead of advancing into space on the left when others have the ball. He was better second half but his hesitancy throughout cost us good opportunities. One good cross for Caneiro but more by luck than judgement compared to his other balls over. I don't blame Fox at all though, I blame Money it's exactly what you'd expect from a full back playing at left back. It's odd because Boertien is more skilfull, more attacking, prepared to get into the box from wide and we know Fox is a decent left back so why not swap them round. It seems we'll have the same confusing problem with who should play where like we did with Fox/Taylor last season....unless Ishy does play more often in which case there's not an issue.

Mooney - Totally as expected and put in the performances he always has done against us. Good hard working and took his goal well. Not bad for an OAP.

Caneiro - Another who continued his pre-season from. Tidy and shows signs of potential but will have to work a lot harder and realise (like Lazerquest didn't) that you have to put yourself about in the English leagues to succeed. I think he's more useful coming off the bench.

Nicholls - Similar to what we've seen in the past. His legs mean he can cover half the pitch in 3 strides in about 2 seconds. Will cause teams problems and I was just happy to see him on so early, a good sign of things to come.

Deeney - Again, pleased to see him on the pitch. Didn't really have that many things to get involved in but one good link up around the box but I can't remember who with. Seems to have got taller?!

Overall promising signs I thought. Defending was excellent and we saw young players bought on and I don't think we'll be in any danger of relegation. The aim for most of us for the season I thought so I hope I don't read much negativity in a minute. As with last season the midfield could be better and another striker would be preferred but there's time for that to happen yet. The difference was the finishing of the opposition but if the game had gone on we'd have won.

[Jolly Johnny]

Must admit, I thought defensively Wrack was poor, offensively he was good, but I'd rather have had Pead there.

He was exposed time and time and time and time again in the first half, they were playing the same ball every time, dropping it in either behind him or splitting him and Gerrard with Gall running between them or from behind Wrack, as he did for their goal. It took us quite a while to latch on to it as well to be honest.

He did have a better 2nd half though as I think we defended slightly deeper to prevent them from knocking that ball over the top or between centre half and full back.

I know criticism of Dann is considered as sacrilegious as praise for Merson, but it wasn't Gerrard playing alongside Wrack, it was Dann. I thought we did a lot better in the second half defensively when Dann was able to come across and clear up behind Wrack, which he wasn't doing in the first 45.

Leics - I don't expect us to get a result at Leyton Orient, I expect them to finish at least as high up as Carlisle this season. They had an excellent win at Southend on Saturday and I would be delighted if we could get a draw from Brisbane Road.

Not for the goal and numerous other balls through I saw, Dann played the left of the two in the first half, unless my eyes are playing tricks on me.

Maybe Gerrard and Dann swapped around in the first half as I can remember a number of occasions where, watching from behind the goal in the F2G middle tier, Dann was the right of the two centre halves. He made a few runs through the middle with Gerrard left of him and I can remember him spreading the ball left to Gerrard on occasion too.

Maybe we should make Gerrard bleach his hair so we can tell them apart more easily! Or better still, let him wear those stupid yellow boots that Fox seems to have got rid of since pre-season!!! :lol: