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Bury (h) 21/04/07- Promotion Party Mark II

Reports and reaction from the 2006-07 season as Walsall finished 1st (C) in League 2
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deanonev69
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Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:59 pm

Well i'm glad i came on here as it is nice to heat that others are pigged off about today.

In most players careers, you are not going to get much chance of winning a title and today i felt we had a genuine chance of really going for it as feel Hartlepool will struggle next week at Rochdale. But we blew it and think if we were still playing now we wouldn't have scored. There was some spoiling tactics by Bury as you'd expect and the ref was appalling but we just didn't turn up and atmosphere went flat quickly.

So disappointed.

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geoffwhiting
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Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:02 pm

deanonev69 wrote:Well i'm glad i came on here as it is nice to hear that others are pigged off about today.
In most players careers, you are not going to get much chance of winning a title and today i felt we had a genuine chance of really going for it as feel Hartlepool will struggle next week at Rochdale. But we blew it and think if we were still playing now we wouldn't have scored. There was some spoiling tactics by Bury as you'd expect and the ref was appalling but we just didn't turn up and atmosphere went flat quickly.

So disappointed.


To put it VERY mildly ! :cry:

dinkydotsaddler
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Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:19 pm

WFC_Rob wrote:
dinkydotsaddler wrote:I can't believe that there are still some delusional fans out there saying 'look at the table'. What's the matter with these people? Yes we are up but since when has football only been about the results? Where is the enjoyment in watching that cr@p week in week out? As DD said today 'we are in the entertainment business' well I for one haven't been even slightly entertained this season!

Decent post, DDS - I find the quoted points quite interesting.
I have to say, by your definition, I am one of those 'delusional' fans. We're at the top because we concede less goals than the other teams and score more goals. Give me success over free-flowing football any day. Look at Tottenham - I think they're probably one of the best teams in the Premiership to watch, but they'll win nothing this season, and probably won't win anthing for a good number of years. I'm sure their fans would rather watch successful ugly football than footbal, which is easy on the eye, but ultimately wins nothing.

DD made me laugh with the comments about us being in 'the entertainment business' because, funnily enough, that's the opposite to what he's been saying all year.

I appreciate what he's done here hugely, but the way we have just decided to settle for what we have has put a downer on recent events (until next week, at least :wink: )


I understand what you are saying but if only the results matter why go to watch? The last few games of a season when a team is going for promotion/avoiding relegation then only the results matter and any supporter would say they would take the three points and to hell with the performance. But week in week out what is the point? With good football will inevitably bring results. Tottenham is not a good comparison because they are Premiership and in my book all Premiership teams are evil!!!!!! We were promoted 7 days ago and the majority of that crowd today couldn't find much to sing about beyond the first 10 minutes when we were all still optimistically looking forward to a good game. To be fair there were a few giving it a go - good on them - but they were up against it. We all wanted to feel jubilant but try as we might there was nothing to be jubilant about.

Even the 'happy-clappers' must deep-down be worried about next season. DD doesn't seem to be able to motivate the players if you ask me. He stood today in what I call a 'Colin Lee' pose, arms crossed, saying nothing. That worries me. I appreciate that DD has got us promotion but I have to say I am not one of his fans.

On WM after the game the few Saddlers that I heard basically said that mid-table next season would be OK. I agree with them, but League 1 is arguably our 'normal' level and yet our expectations are now only mid-table or survival. Why? Because we can not convince ourselves that we are better than that. I will be happy with mid-table, but I don't want to be happy with that. I want to aim for pushing for the play-offs. I can't see it though.

dinkydotsaddler
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Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:23 pm

deanonev69 wrote:Well i'm glad i came on here as it is nice to heat that others are pigged off about today.

In most players careers, you are not going to get much chance of winning a title and today i felt we had a genuine chance of really going for it as feel Hartlepool will struggle next week at Rochdale. But we blew it and think if we were still playing now we wouldn't have scored. There was some spoiling tactics by Bury as you'd expect and the ref was appalling but we just didn't turn up and atmosphere went flat quickly.

So disappointed.


You're right, we just didn't perform like a team that could have gone top and then been in control. It's not as if we get much silverware and yet there was no spirit. The end was quite weird really. Being the first home game after securing promotion is should have been a 'invade the pitch' moment, but sadly was it far from it. I didn't even applaud because frankly I didn't want the players or DD to think that that performance was anything other than shocking. The players looked alittle less than celebratory I thought. Hopefully they realise.

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Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:31 pm

it's 10:30 MoTD about to start and I still feel cheated and gutted by the spineless performance today

Sums up english sport for me, accept mediocrity when you have a chance to win something

One shining light was Dickies interview on WM, when asked what positives there were he answered by saying he knew what he had to do !!!

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Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:50 pm

I had been looking forward to today all this week, couldn't wait to watch the team with pressure off, they had the opportunity to play with real freedom and frankly, it was just a pile of cack.

First half was terrible. Nothing going forward whatsoever. Didn't get the ball out to Harper enough, Cooper looked crap, surely playing with an injury. Butler badly needs a rest, looks completely nackered. Benjamin did nothing and Dobson and Keates were fairly anonymous. As for the defence, well centre of defence, they looked very dodgy. Westwood was as assured as ever but Gerrard and Fox were awful. I was happy to see Taylor back in at left back and that's where he should stay, rather than moving into centre half. Oh how we miss Roper and Dann! Gerrard's goal completely summed up the first half, shambles.

Second half was an improvement, everything that was good went through Harper and Ishy, who was fantastic! Apart from these two, nothing much happened. The introduction of Wrack was the same as always, doesn't do alot, what he does do is nothing major. Sam wasn't on long enough to make a telling impact. How Benjamin missed from 3 yards I do not know. Keates endeavored to drive us forward as usual but even he looked off the pace. I really don't understand why we played so poorly today, I would have thought they would all be so up for the game, ready to take advantage of Hartlepool's result last night but they were just rubbish.

Better add praise for Ishy. He was excellent, looks like he has matured greatly. I was obviously impressed with his direct play, taking on players, getting crosses in etc... That was superb. But it was also great to see that he knew when to play a simple pass, and when he tracked back to barge one of their attackers off the ball shows that he has learnt an awful lot from playing at left back for the reserves and knows he has a responsibility to help our full back. It all bodes well for next season and I'm praying he starts against Wrexham

Very angry tonight. Fair play to Bury, they got their gift of a goal, didn't set the world alight but they didn't exactly need to.

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Graydon48
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Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:25 am

Got to say that cross that Ishy put in and Benjamin failed to get to, was one of the best crosses I have seen us put in all season..
Mind you there haven't been that many crosses being put into the box all season so any cross that reaches six yard box could be classed as good by our standards.

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:55 am

I would say thats a massive positive from todays game, the fact ishy came on and looked majorly too good. Matured greatly, their right back was scared shitless.

Thats probably some of the best football hes played for us, i just like the fact that when he comes on, he gives us somthing to shout about.

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Jolly Johnny
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Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:44 am

WFC_Rob wrote:Gerrard is going to get blamed for the winning goal, but I think Clayton Ince needs to be given an equal amount (if not more) of the responsibility for that shambles. Unless Gerrard has eyes in the back of his head, it was up to Ince to tell him what to do with the ball. Ince, being the only man with every player in front of him, left it far too late to try to claim the ball, which was what led to Gerrard heading the ball onto their striker. It was unfortunate, and a very soft goal to give away, but to put your last defender in a situation like that is pure suicide.


I agree here to a certain extent. Yes, Gerrard made a howler and should of done better but Ince was indecisive again in coming out / doing anything. ALSO, the biggest mistake that lead to the goal, in my opinion, was messing around the ball on the left hand side which put the pressure on us in the first place. Little triangles being played by Fox, Taylor and someone else (may have been keates, not sure) which meant we lost the ball when one of them had the chance to clear it up the pitch long before the goal happened.

Let's not forget Gerrard made an excellent sliding challenge and collect in the channel of our own area only minutes before the goal - sometimes we forget the good when bad happens. I don't mean he was fine today and didn't make a mistake - his positioning and distribution were poor, but I think he's been treated a tad harshly. Still would prefer Dann and Roper there though!!!

As for the game, pretty much what others have said really. Very uninspiring, especially after Friday night's result meant we could have been top tonight. No-one stood out, obviously, although I think Dobson and Keates did okay. Ishmel had a very good 45 (does 'overplay' though at times when beter or more simple options are on) and Harper had good spells (see the thread about loan players on All About... for my frustrations on him!)

Second half performance was better and we should have scored really. On balance of play I'd say draw would have been a fair result but still very disappointing overall.

Mind you, we could easily have lost at Notts County last week (they have been on a run and pushing for play offs) and won today which would have left us in the same position so who knows...

Need the 6 points now to stand any chance of the title.

UTS!!

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Kiansmom
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Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:47 am

Jolly Johnny wrote:
WFC_Rob wrote:Gerrard is going to get blamed for the winning goal, but I think Clayton Ince needs to be given an equal amount (if not more) of the responsibility for that shambles. Unless Gerrard has eyes in the back of his head, it was up to Ince to tell him what to do with the ball. Ince, being the only man with every player in front of him, left it far too late to try to claim the ball, which was what led to Gerrard heading the ball onto their striker. It was unfortunate, and a very soft goal to give away, but to put your last defender in a situation like that is pure suicide.


I agree here to a certain extent. Yes, Gerrard made a howler and should of done better but Ince was indecisive again in coming out / doing anything. ALSO, the biggest mistake that lead to the goal, in my opinion, was messing around the ball on the left hand side which put the pressure on us in the first place. Little triangles being played by Fox, Taylor and someone else (may have been keates, not sure) which meant we lost the ball when one of them had the chance to clear it up the pitch long before the goal happened.

Let's not forget Gerrard made an excellent sliding challenge and collect in the channel of our own area only minutes before the goal - sometimes we forget the good when bad happens. I don't mean he was fine today and didn't make a mistake - his positioning and distribution were poor, but I think he's been treated a tad harshly. Still would prefer Dann and Roper there though!!!

As for the game, pretty much what others have said really. Very uninspiring, especially after Friday night's result meant we could have been top tonight. No-one stood out, obviously, although I think Dobson and Keates did okay. Ishmel had a very good 45 (does 'overplay' though at times when beter or more simple options are on) and Harper had good spells (see the thread about loan players on All About... for my frustrations on him!)

Second half performance was better and we should have scored really. On balance of play I'd say draw would have been a fair result but still very disappointing overall.

Mind you, we could easily have lost at Notts County last week (they have been on a run and pushing for play offs) and won today which would have left us in the same position so who knows...

Need the 6 points now to stand any chance of the title.

UTS!!


unfortunately some people only ever pick out the bad points of Gerrard and totally over look the good ones. Much as I like Ince he could see very clearly Gerrard was in trouble with 2 blokes breathing down his neck, did he do anything? no he just stood there and watched!

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:03 am

latviancheese wrote:I would say thats a massive positive from todays game, the fact ishy came on and looked majorly too good. Matured greatly, their right back was scared shitless.

Thats probably some of the best football hes played for us, i just like the fact that when he comes on, he gives us somthing to shout about.


Agreed

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Neil Ravenscroft
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Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:07 am

I'm sorry, but Gerrard was useless yesterday, especially in the first half. he was beaten time and time again by perfectly straight balls in behind him, where he had lost his man. The only thing that stopped him being the worst player on the pitch was the fact Fox was.

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PT
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Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:10 am

We deserve promotion because we have had a slight edge this season and that edge has been provided by DD's insistance on organisation, heart, never-say-die and spirit and well done to him for that and as I said this time last week his achievement in installing that into this club shouldn't be under-estimated. Unfortunately our promotion has had nothing to do with flair, quality or guile (the late introduction of Harper apart).
Yesterday for some reason the players thought that promotion meant that they had sufficient quality to just turn up against Bury and therefore lost those qualities that had served us so well this season (the "win ugly" qualities).
Hopefully it provided DD with a slap round the face and he now realises his job this summer may actually be harder than it was last summer.
His dilemma will sit around whether he needs even more organisation, heart and spirit and goes for that type of player, or whether we'll see some more flair, quality and guile introduced.

I have a worrying suspicion........

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:18 am


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Duke
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Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:30 am

That was a bitter disappointment , the game was flat , the atmosphere was flat , we had a had a great chance to push for the title and blew it big time.

We were never at the races , was it a case of job done . holidays here we come , nerves i don't know.

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:02 am

Neil Ravenscroft wrote:I'm sorry, but Gerrard was useless yesterday, especially in the first half. he was beaten time and time again by perfectly straight balls in behind him, where he had lost his man. The only thing that stopped him being the worst player on the pitch was the fact Fox was.


Hallelujah!

Also, I see someone remarked on the 'good slidiing challenge to recover the ball by gerrard minutes earlier' - I could not believe my eyes the rapturous applause he was getting for that, it was his own sodding fault he got in that position anyway! His positional sense is that of a cocunut victim in the carribean, he ambles abotu the back, mis judges everything, thank god we have Roper, Dann, Picken, Westwood and Smith next season, to be honest, I would sell.

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:08 am

Jolly Johnny wrote:Little triangles being played by Fox, Taylor and someone else (may have been keates, not sure) which meant we lost the ball when one of them had the chance to clear it up the pitch long before the goal happened.

You're right, it was indeed Dean 'the fans love me because I'm a local lad' Keates. :wink:

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:09 am

wednesbury Saddler METFAN wrote:
Neil Ravenscroft wrote:I'm sorry, but Gerrard was useless yesterday, especially in the first half. he was beaten time and time again by perfectly straight balls in behind him, where he had lost his man. The only thing that stopped him being the worst player on the pitch was the fact Fox was.


Hallelujah!

Also, I see someone remarked on the 'good slidiing challenge to recover the ball by gerrard minutes earlier' - I could not believe my eyes the rapturous applause he was getting for that, it was his own sodding fault he got in that position anyway! His positional sense is that of a cocunut victim in the carribean, he ambles abotu the back, mis judges everything, thank god we have Roper, Dann, Picken, Westwood and Smith next season, to be honest, I would sell.



Nothing to do with him being a bag of nerves, due to the error prone Ince balling down his ears ?

Whoops not allowed to mention that are we ?

The lad was devastated about yesterday, he probably cares more than the people who feel the need to keep slagging him off

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Jolly Johnny
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Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:16 am

wednesbury Saddler METFAN wrote:
Neil Ravenscroft wrote:I'm sorry, but Gerrard was useless yesterday, especially in the first half. he was beaten time and time again by perfectly straight balls in behind him, where he had lost his man. The only thing that stopped him being the worst player on the pitch was the fact Fox was.


Hallelujah!

Also, I see someone remarked on the 'good slidiing challenge to recover the ball by gerrard minutes earlier' - I could not believe my eyes the rapturous applause he was getting for that, it was his own sodding fault he got in that position anyway! His positional sense is that of a cocunut victim in the carribean, he ambles abotu the back, mis judges everything, thank god we have Roper, Dann, Picken, Westwood and Smith next season, to be honest, I would sell.


That 'someone' would be me Metfan. He got applause because he dug himself out of a whole by doing something right! Yes, he may have put himself in that position but he recovered it well, in the same way the likes of Roper and Westwood have done too this season. Again, I'm not saying he was fine, yes his positioning was poor and he lost his man a lot, I was just pointing out some good he did. That centre half partnership was always gonna make him, and Fox, look poor!

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Neuromantic
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Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:19 am

Sorry that I didnt mean not to pick your name out, I just cba to go search lol but it was intended as patronising.

So do people finally see that Gerrard is 4th choice at best? I hope so, I really do.

Saus - Im sorry but he gets paid £££££ a week to deal with anything thrown at him, Imagine if Schmeichel or any other good goalkeeper for that matter was in Goal - Gerrard would be after 10 minutes crying his eyes out!

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:24 am

[quote="wednesbury Saddler METFAN"]Sorry that I didnt mean not to pick your name out, I just cba to go search lol but it was intended as patronising.

So do people finally see that Gerrard is 4th choice at best? I hope so, I really do.

Saus - Im sorry but he gets paid £££££ a week to deal with anything thrown at him, Imagine if Schmeichel or any other good goalkeeper for that matter was in Goal - Gerrard would be after 10 minutes crying his eyes out![/quote

Yes but you could always have faith that the big dane would make the right decisions behind you, the same can't be said about Coco.

If Gerrard is fourth choice as you say, although personally i think he is only behind Roper and Dann, but anyway, if so, he would still have played yesterday, the thing you ignore, cos you don't have a personal vendetta against him, is Fox is god dam awful, he can't defend for toffee, he can't tackle , he is probably the worst player at the club, but that slips your notice, because it isn't really important to you, as long as you can get your digs in about Gerrard.

If DD didn't have his golden boys, Gerrard should have played alongsided Smith yesterday, and would probably have been better for it

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:28 am

Mate if you knew my feelings about Fox you wouldnt have said that, and if you look I have said he was awful for months, so I agree!

He will be 4th choice atm and for the record I think Picken is in another class as well, but I cannot definitely say that til he plays more, so 4th choice atm.

I would cash in on his name in the summer and get rid.

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:38 am

Can anyone who saw Ishmel yesterday explain why he has not had a single start this season? DD has started eight other players in the left midfield position this season (Fanguiero, Bedeau, Fox, Taylor, Keates, Wrack, Wright, Cooper) none of whom has done as well in that position as Ishmel did yesterday.

Is he really the ninth best left midfielder at the club?

Unlike DD we saw Ishmel make 14 starts for the club last season in the division above this one. Nobody on this board thought that he was not already, as a 17 year old, good enough for that division. We did not think that he was a cross between Christiano Ronaldo, Ryan Giggs and George Best - just that he was already better than the other players in our squad in that position. His performances last season were very similar to what we saw yesterday - great talent, but not enough to win a game on his own which some people seem to want from him. He lacks experience and judgement - but if he had played 40 games this season that would be less of an issue.

As for his temperament - I would have thought that a good manager would have said to Ishmel at the start of the season "You have had your problems in the past, but you start with a clean sheet as far as I am concerned." Instead he seems to be being punished for his lack of discipline during the Merson era. This season Ishmel has shown that he can control himself on the pitch despite being hacked down frequently.

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Jolly Johnny
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Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:55 am

wednesbury Saddler METFAN wrote:Sorry that I didnt mean not to pick your name out, I just cba to go search lol but it was intended as patronising.

So do people finally see that Gerrard is 4th choice at best? I hope so, I really do.

Saus - Im sorry but he gets paid £££££ a week to deal with anything thrown at him, Imagine if Schmeichel or any other good goalkeeper for that matter was in Goal - Gerrard would be after 10 minutes crying his eyes out!


No probs Metfan, I share the feeling about not being bothered to trawl back through posts all the time!! :wink:

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Kiansmom
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Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:15 pm

wednesbury Saddler METFAN wrote:Mate if you knew my feelings about Fox you wouldnt have said that, and if you look I have said he was awful for months, so I agree!

He will be 4th choice atm and for the record I think Picken is in another class as well, but I cannot definitely say that til he plays more, so 4th choice atm.

I would cash in on his name in the summer and get rid.


Thank god we have someone in charge who knows what he is doing then and not someone who thinks he knows

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:27 pm

WFC_Rob wrote:I'm gutted about today. As some have already suggested, a poor, timid performance after winning promoted is almost expected from time to time, but the attitudes of players and management is hugely disappointing.

I was pleased to hear Money acknowledging our poor performance because there have been times this season, where I think he has given the impression all is rosy, when it has been clear we've struggled. The thing which annoyed me though, and I will quote Money directly here, was his response to the question "The title is still up for grabs though, isn't it?" The reply from our manager was "possibly". No, I don't want to hear 'possibly'. We have 2 games left, and are 3 points behind the leaders who have an inferior goal difference to our own. A little more belief wouldn't go amiss. This must rib off on the players.

Onto the game then. For the first time in a while, nobody had a good game. Certain people just about hit par, but nobody stood up and made it look like we really want the league title.
Ishmel had as good a performance as you'll see from a winger at this level. Full credit to him, because it seems he doesn't have much support from his manager. He was man of the match having played 45 minutes of football. I think the his team mates need to look at that one and start asking themselves questions.

Cooper doesn't want to be here, so we have no reason to waste our time trying to sign him, as I get the impression Money is going to. Benjamin tries harder and actually held the ball up better than he has done so far for us, but he had 2 very good chances to score and didn't take them. The fact that he takes 4 touches to get the ball under control is also frustrating to watch, as it breaks down any momentum we have going forward.

Gerrard is going to get blamed for the winning goal, but I think Clayton Ince needs to be given an equal amount (if not more) of the responsibility for that shambles. Unless Gerrard has eyes in the back of his head, it was up to Ince to tell him what to do with the ball. Ince, being the only man with every player in front of him, left it far too late to try to claim the ball, which was what led to Gerrard heading the ball onto their striker. It was unfortunate, and a very soft goal to give away, but to put your last defender in a situation like that is pure suicide.

I don't like writing posts like this, especially now promotion is in the bag, but as professional sportsmen, I expect the players to want to win everything they can. Today suggested to me that the mentality amongst the players wasn't right, and that's a concern for the future.


An excellent post. Sums up my own feelings on the game perfectly. Some re-thinking to be done before August by all at the club, if that performance is seen as anything other than abject. :evil:

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:31 pm

wednesbury Saddler METFAN wrote:Mate if you knew my feelings about Fox you wouldnt have said that, and if you look I have said he was awful for months, so I agree!

He will be 4th choice atm and for the record I think Picken is in another class as well, but I cannot definitely say that til he plays more, so 4th choice atm.

I would cash in on his name in the summer and get rid.


Unfortunately though daz there is only 1 person around witha hang up on his name, and you won't want to buy him will you :roll: :wink:

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:38 pm

Just cause his last name is GERRARD, doesnt mean other clubs will want to buy him does it, he aint as good as his cousin afterall is he! :wink:

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:48 pm

Saddler4Life wrote:Just cause his last name is GERRARD, doesnt mean other clubs will want to buy him does it, he aint as good as his cousin afterall is he! :wink:


No cos Stevie G is the best player in the world :wink:

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Saddler4Life
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Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:49 pm

Blazing_Saddler wrote:
Saddler4Life wrote:Just cause his last name is GERRARD, doesnt mean other clubs will want to buy him does it, he aint as good as his cousin afterall is he! :wink:


No cos Stevie G is the best player in the world :wink:


Yeah of course he is! :lol:

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