Torquay United (A) League Saturday 7/4/07.

[King Crimson]

Stop the world, I want to get off.

Stone roses lyric... :wink:

Actually, its "Stop the world, I'm getting off." (From "What the World is Waiting For")

But, after today's fantastic results, I'm prepared to forgive. :D

Hope those who went had a great time.





Lucky b*******! :evil:

[Surrey Saddler]

Great day for the Saddlers. Made my Saturday night. :lol: :D :)

[butts-saddler]

and mine :D :D :D :D

[SaigonSaddler]

YYEEEEEEESSSSSSSS

[Neuromantic]

NOt a great performance, but did enough.

Our Manager is a genius, the decision to bring Mannie Smith into the middle and put westwood at right back won us the game.

Mannie smith for the record, won more headers in 20 mins than Gerrard and Westwood did all game. He was immense. Very, very encouraging.

[Barren Flak]

NOt a great performance, but did enough.

Our Manager is a genius, the decision to bring Mannie Smith into the middle and put westwood at right back won us the game.

Mannie smith for the record, won more headers in 20 mins than Gerrard and Westwood did all game. He was immense. Very, very encouraging.

Do you think he may start that way on Monday?

Even not being there today I would be more comfortable with that.

[redsaddler]

NOt a great performance, but did enough.

Our Manager is a genius, the decision to bring Mannie Smith into the middle and put westwood at right back won us the game.

Mannie smith for the record, won more headers in 20 mins than Gerrard and Westwood did all game. He was immense. Very, very encouraging.

Do you think he may start that way on Monday?

Even not being there today I would be more comfortable with that.

Hmmm, does he stick with a winning combination or does he bring back Harper, Cooper and Sam (if they are fit enough)?

[Neuromantic]

toughy....... but yes I would, we looked far far more comfortable with Smith at the back, Gerrard was poor again, so was westwood really, both seemed to relax when Smith came in, he won everythign in the air, made brilliant blocks.

I thoguht our youth system was crap ? :roll: :lol:

Makes me laugh, what does a manager need to do at this club to get praise! brilliant tactical substitution today.

Just to expand more, Darren Wrack was absolutely anonymous today, Coopers performances make Wrack look like a penguin. He was useless, maybe some people will realise how good Cooper is now ? Benjamin came alivei n the last 20 minutes, could not believe me eyes when Butlers number came up, but it was the right decision.

Wright came on, made a few attempted crosses, but was actually better than Wrack, which is saying something about how bad Wrack was! KT and Danny Fox looked more comfortable playing together as well, was very little threat from down their right wing.

A win away from home with 3 key players ruled out (Cooper, Harper and Sam) not to mention missing Roper, Picken and Dann, shows how good a squad we have.

[Barbecue Hula Hoops]

Wrack is a penguin - classic

[Barren Flak]

toughy....... but yes I would, we looked far far more comfortable with Smith at the back, Gerrard was poor again, so was westwood really, both seemed to relax when Smith came in, he won everythign in the air, made brilliant blocks.

I thoguht our youth system was crap ? :roll: :lol:

Makes me laugh, what does a manager need to do at this club to get praise! brilliant tactical substitution today.

Just to expand more, Darren Wrack was absolutely anonymous today, Coopers performances make Wrack look like a penguin. He was useless, maybe some people will realise how good Cooper is now ? Benjamin came alivei n the last 20 minutes, could not believe me eyes when Butlers number came up, but it was the right decision.

Wright came on, made a few attempted crosses, but was actually better than Wrack, which is saying something about how bad Wrack was! KT and Danny Fox looked more comfortable playing together as well, was very little threat from down their right wing.

A win away from home with 3 key players ruled out (Cooper, Harper and Sam) not to mention missing Roper, Picken and Dann, shows how good a squad we have.

I expect to see a Wednesbury Metfan Order for a Dicky Dosh Tribute T and Hoody combo any day now :wink:

Disappointed to hear about Wracks Performance, thought after the MK game and his short showing against Stanley he was worth a start over Cooper, and obviously so did DD.

Hopefully this will be the kick or the chance for Cooper to recharge the Batteries for one final push.

Maybe Wright will get another chance before the end of the season?

Was thinking that about the squad today, No Harper, Cooper, Dann, Roper, Picken, Sam, Ishy. They would all walk into all League 2 teams and most of League 1 as well. As well as Smith and Deeney Today we've still got Bradley to get his chance not far behind him Sansara.

What a difference a year can make.

[Willy Nilly]

NOt a great performance, but did enough.

Our Manager is a genius, the decision to bring Mannie Smith into the middle and put westwood at right back won us the game.

Mannie smith for the record, won more headers in 20 mins than Gerrard and Westwood did all game. He was immense. Very, very encouraging.

I must be a genious too then, Metfan. 8)

I predicted that change just before it happened. Ask Leamore. :lol:

[Pedagogue]

Mannie Smith - for the record - won more headers in 20 minutes than Gerrard and Westwood did, all game. He was immense. Very, very encouraging.

No, he didn't! I do wish that you wouldn't exaggerate, Metfan. You make some perfectly valid observations but then undermine their credibility by the use of such ridiculous hyperbole.

Pead was having a hard time against the left side of their attack and so DD took him off and switched Westwood back to right-back, with Smith taking the vacant central defender spot. I can confirm that Willy-Nilly had suggested it, a few minutes earlier, and I agreed with him. It was hardly an act of genius (q.v.) to remove a struggling player and switch another to his usual position. It was, however, pleasing to see Smith given his chance. He actually had very few contacts with the ball but when he did, as Metfan suggests, he was good. This would have come as no surprise to anyone who has watched recent Reserve games.

For the record, Gerrard was rarely beaten in the air although Westwood (or Westland, as the useless p.a. man described him!) was less commanding. Where Gerrard and Westwood struggled (along with Pead, Fox and Taylor) was in their passing and distribution - absolutely dire. I lost count of the number of times that we gave the ball away. There is an old adage in football - "If you can't pass, you can't play" - how true.

[SheffieldSaddler]

toughy....... but yes I would, we looked far far more comfortable with Smith at the back, Gerrard was poor again, so was westwood really, both seemed to relax when Smith came in, he won everythign in the air, made brilliant blocks.

I thoguht our youth system was crap ? :roll: :lol:

Makes me laugh, what does a manager need to do at this club to get praise! brilliant tactical substitution today.

Just to expand more, Darren Wrack was absolutely anonymous today, Coopers performances make Wrack look like a penguin. He was useless, maybe some people will realise how good Cooper is now ? Benjamin came alivei n the last 20 minutes, could not believe me eyes when Butlers number came up, but it was the right decision.

Wright came on, made a few attempted crosses, but was actually better than Wrack, which is saying something about how bad Wrack was! KT and Danny Fox looked more comfortable playing together as well, was very little threat from down their right wing.

A win away from home with 3 key players ruled out (Cooper, Harper and Sam) not to mention missing Roper, Picken and Dann, shows how good a squad we have.

I know this may be a silly question, but how can we miss someone that has played just 1 match all season? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Barren Flak]

Mannie Smith - for the record - won more headers in 20 minutes than Gerrard and Westwood did, all game. He was immense. Very, very encouraging.

No, he didn't! I do wish that you wouldn't exaggerate, Metfan. You make some perfectly valid observations but then undermine their credibility by the use of such ridiculous hyperbole.

Pead was having a hard time against the left side of their attack and so DD took him off and switched Westwood back to right-back, with Smith taking the vacant central defender spot. I can confirm that Willy-Nilly had suggested it, a few minutes earlier, and I agreed with him. It was hardly an act of genius (q.v.) to remove a struggling player and switch another to his usual position. It was, however, pleasing to see Smith given his chance. He actually had very few contacts with the ball but when he did, as Metfan suggests, he was good. This would have come as no surprise to anyone who has watched recent Reserve games.

For the record, Gerrard was rarely beaten in the air although Westwood (or Westland, as the useless p.a. man described him!) was less commanding. Where Gerrard and Westwood struggled (along with Pead, Fox and Taylor) was in their passing and distribution - absolutely dire. I lost count of the number of times that we gave the ball away. There is an old adage in football - "If you can't pass, you can't play" - how true.

Leamore, didn't Torquay also substitute the left sided player that was giving Pead and the Defence trouble?

Still beleive it maybe time to Break the Gerrard/Westwood Partnership, It doesn't make comfortable watching. Mind you I'll be on the Beach in Wales, so you lot can agonise through it and i'll just get the goal updates!!!

[Pedagogue]

Better get my views in before the drunken hordes return from the English Riviera!

Defence
Ince - back to his best, without those "Incey moments" that have blighted his game recently. Torquay had 3 on-target shots, all in the second half, which produced their goal and two fine saves from big Clayton.
Pead - had a nightmare game, lacking in pace and self-confidence. He will surely be replaced by Westwood with Smith or Picken coming into the defence?
Gerrard - whole-hearted and committed as ever; won most of his headers and tackles but it is, as ever, his distribution that lets him down. He seems to find it almost impossible to find a team-mate with a pass, either giving it directly to an opponent or hoofing the ball wildly upfield.
Westwood - see comments re Gerrard, above, although he was less commanding in the air. Looked happier when he switched to right-back.
Taylor - generally a sound game and an excellent cross, with his RIGHT foot, to lay on Benjamin's goal. However, he still does not support the attack enough for me, as he is one of our more skillful players. Perhaps he is playing to instructions or maybe the presence of Fox, in front of him, inhibits his play?

In all, the defence was rarely troubled in the first half and coped quite well with continual Torquay pressure, after the interval. However, we bring a lot of pressure on ourselves by the poor passing skills of our defenders (Taylor is the least guilty, in this respect, but by no means innocent of the offence!). If we don't give possession back directly to the opposition then we just wildly hoof the ball upfield to play the "percentages game", bypassing our midfield in the process.

Midfield
Wrack - total waste of time. He contributed NOTHING to our play. Even Wright was an improvement, when he came on which just shows how poor Wrack was!
Dobson - another anonymous performer, although, in his defence, it was never going to be easy, playing in the middle of the Pead-Wrack-Benjamin (our 3 worst players) triangle. Dobbin has shown what he can do, when he really tries, in the home game v. Barnet, and that is the standard he should aspire to, each week. However, he has taken on the Osborn mantle, playing in a very restricted area, in front of the back four, and rarely succeeds with a pass of more than five yards! If you think that that is all that he needs to do, leaving Keates to do all the running, then I'm sorry but that, imho, is total cobblers. We need BOTH central midfield players to be box-to-box players. Dobson is a one-paced plodder, lacking in stamina, who relies, more than most players, on the players around him. When they are poor, as in yesterday's game, then he is poor. When they play well (as against Barnet), he plays well. As a captain, he should be imposing himself much more on play and setting an example.
Keates - typical performance by the wee man. He is in a rich vein of form at present and, without being truly outstanding, he was our man-of-the-match, yesterday, by quite some distance.
Fox - looked just what he is - a left-back, playing out of position. Good tackler but, in saying that, you've said it all.

Our midfield has been a major concern, all season, and yesterday was no exception. In fairness to them, as I have stated above, their jobs are made difficult by the VERY poor passing skills of our defence who, all too often, bypass the midfield with aimless punts upfield, invariably dealt with by the opposition.

Attack
Benjamin - I just don't see how this guy is an improvement on Sam or Cederqvist (or Constable and Nicholls, for that matter). He spent most of the game conceding fouls and he has absolutely zero skill on the ball. Took his goal well, though.
Butler - still works hard but I think that the ravages of the season and the responsibility of carrying our attacking threat, on his own (thanks to a succession of useless partners), is beginning to tell on him.

We rarely troubled the Torquay defence, after the first 10 minutes.

Substitutes
Smith - a very encouraging start, continuing his recent outstanding form in the Reserves. Could well have a rôle to play in the last few matches.
Wright - put in 2 crosses - the first was over-hit and missed out everyone and the second landed on the roof of the net. However, he was more lively than the turgid Wrack!
Deeney - nearly scored with his first touch. Plays without inhibitions. He could be a future prospect, if handled correctly (oo-er, missus!).

All in all, three very lucky points gained. If I were a Torquay fan, I would feel well p****d off about taking nothing from that game. However, as Willy-Nilly remarked to me, after the match, there have been similar games (e.g. MK Franchise, away) where WE have not taken away our just rewards, so I suppose it's a case of "swings and roundabouts" for us. Like most fans, I will be sorry to see the Gulls drop out of the League (as they surely will, after yesterday). I hope that they take Boston with them.

[Matt'sdad]

Better get my views in before the drunken hordes return from the English Riviera!

Defence
Ince - back to his best, without those "Incey moments" that have blighted his game recently. Torquay had 3 on-target shots, all in the second half, which produced their goal and two fine saves from big Clayton.
Pead - had a nightmare game, lacking in pace and self-confidence. He will surely be replaced by Westwood with Smith or Picken coming into the defence?
Gerrard - whole-hearted and committed as ever; won most of his headers and tackles but it is, as ever, his distribution that lets him down. He seems to find it almost impossible to find a team-mate with a pass, either giving it directly to an opponent or hoofing the ball wildly upfield.
Westwood - see comments re Gerrard, above, although he was less commanding in the air. Looked happier when he switched to right-back.
Taylor - generally a sound game and an excellent cross, with his RIGHT foot, to lay on Benjamin's goal. However, he still does not support the attack enough for me, as he is one of our more skillful players. Perhaps he is playing to instructions or maybe the presence of Fox, in front of him, inhibits his play?

In all, the defence was rarely troubled in the first half and coped quite well with continual Torquay pressure, after the interval. However, we bring a lot of pressure on ourselves by the poor passing skills of our defenders (Taylor is the least guilty, in this respect, but by no means innocent of the offence!). If we don't give possession back directly to the opposition then we just wildly hoof the ball upfield to play the "percentages game", bypassing our midfield in the process.

Midfield
Wrack - total waste of time. He contributed NOTHING to our play. Even Wright was an improvement, when he came on which just shows how poor Wrack was!
Dobson - another anonymous performer, although, in his defence, it was never going to be easy, playing in the middle of the Pead-Wrack-Benjamin (our 3 worst players) triangle. Dobbin has shown what he can do, when he really tries, in the home game v. Barnet, and that is the standard he should aspire to, each week. However, he has taken on the Osborn mantle, playing in a very restricted area, in front of the back four, and rarely succeeds with a pass of more than five yards! If you think that that is all that he needs to do, leaving Keates to do all the running, then I'm sorry but that, imho, is total cobblers. We need BOTH central midfield players to be box-to-box players. Dobson is a one-paced plodder, lacking in stamina, who relies, more than most players, on the players around him. When they are poor, as in yesterday's game, then he is poor. When they play well (as against Barnet), he plays well. As a captain, he should be imposing himself much more on play and setting an example.
Keates - typical performance by the wee man. He is in a rich vein of form at present and, without being truly outstanding, he was our man-of-the-match, yesterday, by quite some distance.
Fox - looked just what he is - a left-back, playing out of position. Good tackler but, in saying that, you've said it all.

Our midfield has been a major concern, all season, and yesterday was no exception. In fairness to them, as I have stated above, their jobs are made difficult by the VERY poor passing skills of our defence who, all too often, bypass the midfield with aimless punts upfield, invariably dealt with by the opposition.

Attack
Benjamin - I just don't see how this guy is an improvement on Sam or Cederqvist (or Constable and Nicholls, for that matter). He spent most of the game conceding fouls and he has absolutely zero skill on the ball. Took his goal well, though.
Butler - still works hard but I think that the ravages of the season and the responsibility of carrying our attacking threat, on his own (thanks to a succession of useless partners), is beginning to tell on him.

We rarely troubled the Torquay defence, after the first 10 minutes.

Substitutes
Smith - a very encouraging start, continuing his recent outstanding form in the Reserves. Could well have a rôle to play in the last few matches.
Wright - put in 2 crosses - the first was over-hit and missed out everyone and the second landed on the roof of the net. However, he was more lively than the turgid Wrack!
Deeney - nearly scored with his first touch. Plays without inhibitions. He could be a future prospect, if handled correctly (oo-er, missus!).

All in all, three very lucky points gained. If I were a Torquay fan, I would feel well p****d off about taking nothing from that game. However, as Willy-Nilly remarked to me, after the match, there have been similar games (e.g. MK Franchise, away) where WE have not taken away our just rewards, so I suppose it's a case of "swings and roundabouts" for us. Like most fans, I will be sorry to see the Gulls drop out of the League (as they surely will, after yesterday). I hope that they take Boston with them.

Agree totally with your comments Leamore. I was there, if only they could have played the second half like they did the first. Unfortunately they gave the ball away too much, constantly hoofing it down the field in hope. Lots of changes needed for next season. However 3 points closer to promotion and it was nice to see the Saddlers in action plus I had the added bonus of meeting up with Kiansmom, Evo , Blazing Saddler and MMF...... trust you enjoyed your stay down here ? I will try to get to Bescot for the Wrexham match

[coxy_saddler]

Great win..Leamore has put everything really about the game..Fantastic following there yesterday! Great atmopshere..Here's a few pics to show how good it was..






Gary's Anna Bella :lol:



The sea front lovely place..

UTS

[Bernie]

Thanks for that analysis Leamore.

Interesting to note that of the 13 outfield players DD used only 3 (Dobson, Benjamin and Butler) came from the 12 outfield players he has brought to the club. Looking at your comments all the good play came from those who were already at the club before DD arrived. You have seen them a lot more than I have so I would be interested in your opinion of how we would have got on with three out of Bradley, Constable, Nicholls or Ishmel in for those three?

[1933]

Thanks for that analysis Leamore.

Interesting to note that of the 13 outfield players DD used only 3 (Dobson, Benjamin and Butler) came from the 12 outfield players he has brought to the club. Looking at your comments all the good play came from those who were already at the club before DD arrived. You have seen them a lot more than I have so I would be interested in your opinion of how we would have got on with three out of Bradley, Constable, Nicholls or Ishmel in for those three?

Don't forget that Benjamin scored the goal and won the penalty.

[Whitti Steve]

Thanks for that analysis Leamore.

Interesting to note that of the 13 outfield players DD used only 3 (Dobson, Benjamin and Butler) came from the 12 outfield players he has brought to the club. Looking at your comments all the good play came from those who were already at the club before DD arrived. You have seen them a lot more than I have so I would be interested in your opinion of how we would have got on with three out of Bradley, Constable, Nicholls or Ishmel in for those three?

But what is your point? That Merson was a genius for signing the others - or that DD is a genius for being able to coach the players we already have?

[Pedagogue]

Thanks for that analysis, Leamore.

Interesting to note that of the 13 outfield players DD used only 3 (Dobson, Benjamin and Butler) came from the 12 outfield players he has brought to the club. Looking at your comments all the good play came from those who were already at the club before DD arrived. You have seen them a lot more than I have so I would be interested in your opinion of how we would have got on with three out of Bradley, Constable, Nicholls or Ishmel in for those three?

But what is your point? That Merson was a genius for signing the others - or that DD is a genius for being able to coach the players we already have?

I think that the point that Bernie is making is that 9 of his outfield signings didn't figure in yesterday's match - although Picken should not be included in that tally, to be fair. Certainly, DD has got more out of some of the players than Merson did.

The words "Merson" and "genius" in the same sentence.................hmmm..........

[Duke]

Just said on the championship " only 1 team in the top 8 of league 2 won.yesterday " :D

[Geordiesaddler]

Just to point out again to add some balance to Bernie's argument.

Sam, Harper, Picken, Cederqvist, Lyall, and Cooper all either injured or recovering from injury, Bedeau was a sub, so of the 7 available outfield signings 4 featured in the 16. Ince, another key performer on the day was also a DD signing.

Is Bernie including the departed Fanguiero and Wright to further embelish his argument??
Hmmm I wonder why?


If so then make it 4 from 5!!


Also Troy Deeney was a DD signing.


Maybe we should be in the bottom half of the table with a manager saying "judge me on my players". Yes that would be better wouldn't it??

[futuresobright]

After another tepid performance against the worst club in the four divisions I am slighlty cheered by the increasing number of posters who feel that even faint praise is more than Mr Touchy deserves for his efforts this season. To leave him in charge of this very promising squad (Mr T'S purchases excepted of course) next year would be absurd. Young, exciting players will never develop under a manager committed to ugly defensive football.
Thank you and goodbye.

[Neuromantic]

tra' xxx


:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Bernie]

I was not making any point in my question to Leamore.

I did not put forward an argument, I simply asked Leamore, who has seen a lot of the reserves, whether he thought that it would made much difference if Dobson, Butler and Benjamin had been replaced by Bradley, Constable, Nicholls or Ishmel.

If there is any inference to be gained from my question it would be that I do not think that Richard Money has been particularly successful with his signings. He has certainly not "built his own team", despite bringing 14 players to the club.

As for Merson, I have no doubt that Richard Money is far superior as a manager to him. For the record I was totally opposed to Merson from the day he was appointed - because it was blindingly obvious to me that his out of control addictions would prevent him from being able to do the job. Giving the job to Merson was ridiculous - it was always certain to end in disaster. I am pretty sure that if Richard Money had been in charge all last season we would have been nowhere near the relegation zone.

[WFC_Rob]

If there is any inference to be gained from my question it would be that I do not think that Richard Money has been particularly successful with his signings. He has certainly not "built his own team", despite bringing 14 players to the club.

Another question you need to ask though, is did he need to 'build his own team'?

In the likes of Gerrard, Westwood, Roper, Dann, Fox, Taylor and Keates, we have a number of players who are capable of performing in a promotion-aspiring league two side.
Money just had to supplement this with a blend of experience and consistent performers. That's exactly what he did.
From Money's point of view, what's the point in bringing in a brand new first team squad, when most of the players at the club are already good enough, and have suffered from diabolical management over the previous 2 seasons?

[deanonev69]

Well i'm back from Torquay-still feeling a bit tender but was top day and night.

First half we played ok, second half, well it shows why Torquay are bottom. It was a perfromance of a team that will get promoted by Walsall-we just had that bit of luck!

And what a atmosphere we created today-absolutely mint it was. One of the best i've been at.

[Saddler4Life]

Not long got back from my weekend down in Torquay!
A decent performance yesterday from us!
Was good to see Taylor And Fox back playing together, as they make a good partnership!
Dobson had a brilliant game yesterday, but so did most players TBH!
Good to see DD playing some of the youngsters, Smith and Deeney certainly made an impact when they came on!
Great turn out, but a few more at Notts County to see us get promoted!
Great atmopshere well done everyone! Lets make that much noise tomorow at Bescot!!

UTS!

[Pedro]

What a great weekend

Friday night Torquay was full of Saddlers

Saturday I had the trots but who gives at s*** we won

Keates was mint MOTM the lad was everywhere