Mansfield Town (A) League Saturday 20/1/07

[Stu]

im glad ive got a sub genius iq

I used to use big words in my arguments, then I learned how to argue

I'm trying to work out which line made me wet myself, cat loves the smell...

[We-ARE-Walsall]

who's Mark ? :?:

Me :D

[Magic Man Fan]

who's Mark ? :?:

:lol: :wink:

[We-ARE-Walsall]

who's Mark ? :?:

:lol: :wink:

Or more likely him :D

[philthesaddler]

I know and that's the only opinion you and phil and the other come up with. Unfortunately it means nothing because you still can't answer the question which I'll make very clear once more.

Does wimping out of chances lose up points? NO (we hardly ever concede from the right hand side)

Does Mark Wright hiding lose us points? NO (he never hides from his
defensive duties and to be honest I don't think he hides AT ALL, its in your head. He has more possession than nearly everone because he DOESN'T hide)

Do Mark Wrights assists win us points? YES

Does Mark Wright's pace and ability to get to the other end of the pitch quick take pressure of our defence? YES

Until the answer to the first questions are YES and the last ones NO then he fully deserves his place in the team.

And once again you say he's not good enough for a top of the league side. Why? He's been a huge part of us getting there.

Pathetic argument, as always from the Wright critics. ;)

Mark your first two statements are so 'sweeping' that they're silly. Claiming that his wimping out doesn't affect the team and saying he never hides from defensive duties are just so hyperthetical that you can't really judge.

How do you know his wimping out doesnt affect the team? The majority of his wimping out will occur in challenges with their left back. There is then likely to be a dozen or so passes before any danger occurs. It's not as though he's a centre back, when wimping out would be a massive problem, but his wimping out is indicative of his whole playing attitude.

If he wimps out of a challenge, or tries to head the ball with his back like he always does, loses out, but nothing happens for 6 or 7 passes, the blame wouldn't be attributed to Wright, but he has a part to play.

What Im saying is that his wimp outs occur in his area of the pitch, where it's not vital, but can still have an effect. If he wimps out instead of winning the ball, he's not only letting them retain possesion, he's losing a chance to counter attack.

You aint think Mark, what kind of Manager would say "dont worry mark, you just bottle all kind of physical contact, it wont matter".

I wouldn't say he 'hides' from defensive duties exactly, but he's very very very lacklustre at times Mark, and gets beated ever so easily. His strength on the ball is a joke [both attacking and defending].

He definately tracks back and puts in an appearance, but his terrible positional sense and unwillingness to get hurt for the cause mean you might aswell have no one there.

And, if I may, I'd like to make a sweeping statement like you. There have been times this season, where he has actually got in the way of our defending. IE, if he wasn't there, we have done better defensively. I remember a few games ago he got in Westwoods way a few times, and because westwood couldn't get to the ball, and MWs weakness, the player got through.

OF course mw's assists win us points. Same in cricket, catches win matches. However, MW's crossing is atrocious. IF [and thats a very strong IF] he manages to beat the first man, the cross is often to weak.

Furthermore, his lacklustre approach means he very very rarely gets in behind their defenders. And we all know that when you get in behind defenders down the wing, its very dangerous. He never manages to do that. Partly because he gets the ball stuck under his feet all the time, and secondly because he refuses to use the pace he must have, instead opting to keep the ball at his feet and trying tricks to beat his man. These tricks rarely work [against pisspoor division 3 defenders], sometimes he completely gives the all away, sometimes he goes but leaves the ball behind. All in all, he offers no pace going forward, he couldn't beat a cardboard cut out, and when he does cross, it will more than likely hit the first man or be too weak.

Your stats saying he's the 5th best assistor in the league are all well and good, but it would be more useful if we could quantify it. We have one of the best attacks in the league, and the best defence, in all reality we should have someone in the top 5, if not, the top 1, and probably a couple of others.

What would be more useful would be to compare those assist stats against some opta stats to do with his cross success rate, and I think it would tell a completely different story.

Whatsmore if he was as good as you all say, he'd have been snapped up, if not years ago, certainly after the 'brilliant' season he's having in the basement division.

To carry on your theme...

Does MW's lack of strength on the ball ruin attacks? YES

Does his uncanny ability to hit the first man reduce the service to the strikers? YES

Does his weakness in all kind of challenges result in possesion being lost, or kept with the opposition? YES.

-----------------------------

Overall, I don't particularly rate him, mostly because of his wimpish attitude. I'm a traditional fan, I love the rough and tumble, hard knock footballers that get stuck in, and use their strength and sheer determination to create oppurtunities.

I think he's an asset in our team, but what disappoints me is his wimpishness that spoils his game. I think a bit of bravery could make all the difference to Mark Wright, unfortunately, he wouldn't tackle a 5 year old girl.

Having said all that, it doesnt mean I love Tony Badtoe, he's looked particularly lacklustre, and it's a bit petty to use that against anti-MWAS people, because the conversation is about Mark Wright, just cos we've managed to sign someone worse than Mark Wright, doesn't make Mark Wright a better player. And it's really pointless saying Mark Wright is decent because compared to an awful player in Bedeau Wright manages to look mediocre in a god awful divison. If you must compare him and judge whether he's up to a decent bench mark, lets compare him to a decent bench mark, not Tony Badtoe, who will probably end up in the conference.

[Magic Man Fan]

Sorry phil, but you've added nothing to the debate. I've answered everything in my several posts on this thread.

My comments aren't sweeping at all. I have backed them with facts. When you do the same, I will listen. The debate is done.

The only thing Wright critics have to work with are opinions.

We have the assists table (which specifically allude to Wright's performances), and the goals scored and conceded columns to use as facts.

It's been asked several times before but NO-ONE has ever answered. Name us a few wingers, past or present that are tough tackling and don't fade in and out of games.

In fact, Metfan, weren't you supposed to be naming TEN League Two right wingers than Wright? Or was it just wingers in general? I can't remember. Still waiting for the answer though.

PS - I am comparing him to a decent benchmark in Tony Bedeaun't regardless of what you think of him. Do I have to repeat all my posts? Bedeaun't was considered one of the best League Two wingers around and had been for a while. Who else do you want us to compare Wright too? Aaron Lennon?

Yes Wright could be better, a lot better at times but this is DIVISION FOUR, not the Premiership. Every player at this level has imperfections, otherwise Wright at his prime age and fitness would be earning £50,000 a week in the top flight.

Stop expecting perfection and think back to the dross we had last time in this division.

[Registered Saddler]

In fact, Metfan, weren't you supposed to be naming TEN League Two right wingers than Wright? Or was it just wingers in general? I can't remember. Still waiting for the answer though.

I set that challenge. Well, nearly. I actually challenged Metfan to name me three right-wingers who we could feasibly sign who would do a better job than Wright. He said he could name me ten. I'm still waiting.

[Magic Man Fan]

In fact, Metfan, weren't you supposed to be naming TEN League Two right wingers than Wright? Or was it just wingers in general? I can't remember. Still waiting for the answer though.

I set that challenge. Well, nearly. I actually challenged Metfan to name me three right-wingers who we could feasibly sign who would do a better job than Wright. He said he could name me ten. I'm still waiting.

That's the one.

[tinned]

This feels strange defending Wright :shock:

Okay Daz (I think it was), Wright may only get 10% of his crosses over correctly, but 10% of the amount Wright gets over is much better than 25% of the virtually non-existant number Fox manages.

And to ask whether Walsall would benefit from a better right winger is stupid beyond belief. I thought you were supposed to be some self-proclaimed super brain ? Of course we would benefit. Mind you we'd benefit if we replaced Butler with Henry but it ain't likely to happen is it ? What a dead-end question !

[Fray Bentos is God!]

im glad ive got a sub genius iq

I used to use big words in my arguments, then I learned how to argue

I'm trying to work out which line made me wet myself, cat loves the smell...

knowing how i make you wet yourself/spit coffee all over your computay I still cant believe ive not managed a piece for the zine, im disappointed in myself.

10 wingers that we can sign better than mighty Wright? daz and phil can pop together the 15 million plus if they like the look of Lennon, maybe for the bargain basement we could sign Mcsheffrey for about 4-5 million

[Exile]

It's OK Gary - I came up with a late piece for the Zine so there won't be an empty page.

Looking forward to the outcome of the right-winger debate. Looks like it's a done job in favour of MMF's corner, but some other MW hater is bound to crop up, then cut and paste that old post from four months back that they all use, forcing MMF t orepeat himself again. It'll drive him mad, but he'll do it.

[Fray Bentos is God!]

It's OK Gary - I came up with a late piece for the Zine so there won't be an empty page.

Looking forward to the outcome of the right-winger debate. Looks like it's a done job in favour of MMF's corner, but some other MW hater is bound to crop up, then cut and paste that old post from four months back that they all use, forcing MMF t orepeat himself again. It'll drive him mad, but he'll do it.

Its ok, I heard Joaquin has a hankering for balti pies and ive told Luis Figo he can stop in my spare room if he needs it.

"would we be a better team if we had a better right sided player ?"

If thats the best we've got to go up against were not gonna break any kind of sweat

[cal wfc fan]

Sorry phil, but you've added nothing to the debate. I've answered everything in my several posts on this thread.

My comments aren't sweeping at all. I have backed them with facts. When you do the same, I will listen. The debate is done.

The only thing Wright critics have to work with are opinions.

We have the assists table (which specifically allude to Wright's performances), and the goals scored and conceded columns to use as facts.

It's been asked several times before but NO-ONE has ever answered. Name us a few wingers, past or present that are tough tackling and don't fade in and out of games.

In fact, Metfan, weren't you supposed to be naming TEN League Two right wingers than Wright? Or was it just wingers in general? I can't remember. Still waiting for the answer though.

PS - I am comparing him to a decent benchmark in Tony Bedeaun't regardless of what you think of him. Do I have to repeat all my posts? Bedeaun't was considered one of the best League Two wingers around and had been for a while. Who else do you want us to compare Wright too? Aaron Lennon?

Yes Wright could be better, a lot better at times but this is DIVISION FOUR, not the Premiership. Every player at this level has imperfections, otherwise Wright at his prime age and fitness would be earning £50,000 a week in the top flight.

Stop expecting perfection and think back to the dross we had last time in this division.

Well said!!
I think a lot of wfc supporters think our players should be performing like premiership players.
I agree with a lot of what you say mmf would like to meet and shake your hand :)

[Neuromantic]

Simon Brown
Andy Sandell
Marc Goodfellow
Junior Mendes
Martin Bullock
Alexandre Frutos
Owain Tudor Jones
Stephen Cooke
Kevin harper
Martin Brittain
Mark Yeates
Ritche Partridge
Sam Aiston

Thats what I can think of at the minute, Sure theres more.

[Exile]

Simon Brown
Andy Sandell
Marc Goodfellow
Junior Mendes
Martin Bullock
Alexandre Frutos
Owain Tudor Jones
Stephen Cooke
Kevin harper
Martin Brittain
Mark Yeates
Ritche Partridge
Sam Aiston

Thats what I can think of at the minute, Sure theres more.

You're just naming players. In your mind they may be better than Mark Wright, but I know you're just joking. Headbutter Brown, who's out for the season with hernia trouble? Junior Mendes who can't get into Notts County's team? Marc Goodfellow, who by all accounts has left Bury, his 8th club in 6 years? Sheesh.

[Neuromantic]

Oh no no, that was a carefully constructed list of maybes! Tudor Jones and Yeates I think have both playedo nly 3 times for Swansea and Hull respectively this season. Martin Brittain hasnt played, ex Newcastle I believe, ditto sam aiston. So yeah, I would have a look at a few on that list, maybe on loan. I was asked to give ten players with a genuine chance of coming. There they are.

[Stu]

Simon Brown - Predominantly a striker anyway, so doesn't really compare.
Andy Sandell - Left winger, so are you out of the Merson school of management? 33 appearances in his entire career at the age of 24? As opposed to 150 from Mark Wright who is about 6-12 months older...
Marc Goodfellow - Ever wondered why he can't settle at 1 club?
Junior Mendes - Are you pulling my plonker? Again predominantly a striker, but 7 clubs in 6 years, never settled anywhere. Wonder why?
Martin Bullock - Yep, let's replace Mark Wright with a 32 year old from Macclesfield. Cracking suggestion.
Alexandre Frutos - You been playing Football Manager? 31 starts in 18 months at Brighton?
Owain Tudor Jones - Just recovering from a broken leg, highly doubt Swansea will want to part with him just yet.
Stephen Cooke - The one just sent out on loan from Bournemouth to Torquay because Kevin Bond reckons he isn't good enough for 1st team football yet?
Kevin harper - Played just 20 appearances in the last 18 months... Just had a loan spell at Carlisle and is now 31 years old. Not even the slightest as to if he is the player he was.
Martin Brittain - Another Footy Manager suggestion? He has made 9 starts in his entire career according to Soccerbase, all on loan for Yeovil this season. Better than Mark Wright? My arse.
Mark Yeates - He is on loan from Tottenham, so he isn't Hull's to sign and if you think he'd drop to League 2 your having a giggle.
Ritche Partridge - First team regular at Rotherham...
Sam Aiston - For starters, he is a left winger, for seconsd he can't even get a starting place in a poor Northampton team.

Thats what I can think of at the minute, Sure theres more.

So out of all of those names, not 1 is a realistic and plausible suggestion. They're names plucked at random out of the air to try and satisfy a losing battle with MMF.

I gave you more intelligence than that, I really did.

[Neuromantic]

UIm sorry Stu, but there are 3 or 4 there that are real possibilities.

[Neuromantic]

And second of all, are you tellign me out there, in the world of football, there are not 3 or 4 players we could bring in better than mark wright ? Rubbish. The partridge suggestion was based on Rotherham getting relegated anyway, just to point out. Many are based on us getting promoted.

[Stu]

And second of all, are you tellign me out there, in the world of football, there are not 3 or 4 players we could bring in better than mark wright ? Rubbish. The partridge suggestion was based on Rotherham getting relegated anyway, just to point out. Many are based on us getting promoted.

Name me the 3 or 4 that are realistic then, go on? And if by now you admit that only 3 or 4 are realistic, then why did you name 10 or 11 to start with knowing full well that 75% were stupid suggestions?

Of course there are better players out there than Mark Wright, however there are also better players out there than Ince, Westwood, Roper, Dann, Taylor, Fox, Pead, Dobson, Butler, Sam, Cederqvist, Keates, Demontagnac, Gerrard, Picken, Nicholls and Bossu... Plus whoever else I forgot to mention.

Instead of pursuing the 'I hate Wright' path, why don't you actually look at what is needed, not what you want. Currently, the left flank is far more of a problem than the right flank. If the left flanks offers more threat than an impotent 90 year old, then maybe there wouldn't be as much pressure on Wright to constant deliver every time he gets the ball.

Don't forget that Rotherham started on -10, so they've effectively got 34 points, which would put them 16th/17th, so I don't see them getting relegated personally as their form is not that of a relegation team and they've got a game in hand. (Granted they're 8 without a win though), even so, Partridge is in contract and a first team regular. So just why are they going to want to let him go?

[Neuromantic]

And second of all, are you tellign me out there, in the world of football, there are not 3 or 4 players we could bring in better than mark wright ? Rubbish. The partridge suggestion was based on Rotherham getting relegated anyway, just to point out. Many are based on us getting promoted.

Name me the 3 or 4 that are realistic then, go on? And if by now you admit that only 3 or 4 are realistic, then why did you name 10 or 11 to start with knowing full well that 75% were stupid suggestions? I said I had to name ten! :oops: !

Of course there are better players out there than Mark Wright, however there are also better players out there than Ince, Westwood, Roper, Dann, Taylor, Fox, Pead, Dobson, Butler, Sam, Cederqvist, Keates, Demontagnac, Gerrard, Picken, Nicholls and Bossu... Plus whoever else I forgot to mention. You dont see my point, I think we need to strengthen, not wholesale changes, that would be stupid. As a progressive club I think you need competetion for places, Bedeau hasnt challeneged wright, so therefore why cant we sign another right winger?

Instead of pursuing the 'I hate Wright' path, why don't you actually look at what is needed, not what you want. Currently, the left flank is far more of a problem than the right flank. If the left flanks offers more threat than an impotent 90 year old, then maybe there wouldn't be as much pressure on Wright to constant deliver every time he gets the ball. Why cant we have a right AND left winger? Myabe we have that left winger alreadym in Ishmel. But he doesnt seem trusted.

Don't forget that Rotherham started on -10, so they've effectively got 34 points, which would put them 16th/17th, so I don't see them getting relegated personally as their form is not that of a relegation team and they've got a game in hand. (Granted they're 8 without a win though), even so, Partridge is in contract and a first team regular. So just why are they going to want to let him go? Cos' they are scrubbers? He must be one of their 'high' earners ? surely, Cant see a club like Rotherscum have a massive wage structure in league two...

People are missing my point, I think the right wing is a general area of the pitch we need to strengthen in. as well as another central midfielder, and possibly left winger. That is all I can see. Why cant we strengthen? Is it illegal ?

[Stu]

You'll have to forgive me for not trusting your judgement on players, after all, your the person who told us all that Bedeau was going to come good and he hasn't proved it yet. He was signed to provide competition to Wright and hasn't done, so should we waste valuable resources on a 3rd right winger, when the one we've got is 5th in the Assists table in the division and in the Top 20 for the Football League?

Ultimately, tell me what the job of a right winger is? This is mine;
- Provide cover for his fullback
- Provide width
- Offer an outlet when attacking or counter-attacking
- Create goals with balls into the box

Which of those does Mark Wright not do? In my view, he does the lot. Yes he is weak in the tackle, but I don't think wingers are meant to make bone crunching tackles. Yes he can be bloody frustrating, name me a winger that isn't (Hodge and Houghton were as inconsistent as you could get at times)

Resources are scant, to think otherwise is just plain naive. Why strengthen on the right AND left, when the priorities are probably the left and the centre midfield?

And for the umpteenth time, has it not occurred that by strengthening elsewhere and having other players who can offer options and create danger going forward, that the reduced pressure and burden on Wright will then result in improved performances for him?

As for the Partridge thing, you answer the question yourself. They won't have a massive wage structure, they've been in admin, so do you think anyone there is earning decent money, espeically someone they signed in the summer? I highly doubt it.

Use your noggin a bit, forget persecuting someone who is doing an okay job.

[saddlerken]

That list is a joke list, if you're going to make statements, back them up realistically otherwise you're going to look a little daft

Possibly a left winger?????? Only possibly?

Where is a Pedro when you need him!!

[Neuromantic]

Well I shall agree to differ, Its probably a little silly, but mark my words, If we did sign one of those in the next 12 months, I shall let it be known! :D

[Fray Bentos is God!]

If Rio Ferdinand was here, hed say that you just got merked. Me though, id say HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Al - MWAS !!!!!!

[Neuromantic]

Well, to be honest, Just because a few people think hes good, and this and that, doesnt mean theyre right. I along with a lot of people think hes been abysmal at times this seasons, why are we wrong? Im just going to agree to differ. If he really puts in a barnstorming performance, where he constantly knocks the ball beyond the full back and races down the line where he puts in quality crosses, then fair enough, I shall put my hands up and say yeah, 'well played'.

For me, in my experience of the game, the midfield is one of the most, if the most, crucual area of the field. In every position, therefore, justifying him by saying one quality cross all game, justifies his position , is not good enough imho. How about if that cross doesn't end up in a goal? , what were the other 89 mins and 57 seconds about? #

Its the fact he wastes valuable possesion, time and time again, that really narks me. For me, an instance on saturday just before he came off really summed it up for me. The ball was played by Bedeau across to right, inside the penalty area, at a time when we really needed that bit of quality to maintain our position, he hits the first man. taken off.

Course he has played well this season, im not denying that. I just think hes not good enough.

[philthesaddler]

I find it quite funny, Wright constantly performs badly [regardless of assist stats], with the occasional blip of decency, yet those who say he's no good are wrong, and those who say he's great are right.

If he's so great why does he wimp out of challenges? If he's so great why do the vast majority of his crosses hit the first man or are to weak to reach the target?

Simply being in a decent, winning side, doesn't make him a good player. We saw last year exactly what kind of player he was, when the going got tough, he hid. This year, miraculously, the team are playing brilliantly, and MW is only managing performances of a medium standard at best. And when we come up against decent sides, he's terrible, he's invisible.

Comparing him to Fox isn't fair as Fox is a left back by trade. I've said it before, but lets start with Ish. He'll run at people, cut inside defenders, get in behind defenders, skin them for pace... and get decent, dangerous balls in to the box. Mark Wright does none of that.

I don't really care for assist stats, some of the opposition has been so bad this year that David Blunkett could get a few assists.

Whatsmore I think a lot of people misunderstand the argument about Wright. I don't think he's totally useless, he does manage a couple of decent things per match, but those decent things are completely offset by the number of occasions of wimping out, failed crosses time and time again, failing to beat his crappy third division marker time and time again, losing out on every header he goes up for time and time again because he tried to head it with the middle of his spine.

The gripe I have with Wright is that he could be much, much better.

All this bullshit about Tony Bedeau being the best winger in the league is rubbish, how can people have thought that? He's quite clearly not . Yet people still compare mark wright against him, only because it puts MW in a favourable light.

Lets compare Mark Wright against Christian Roberts shall we?

[Fray Bentos is God!]

Well, to be honest, Just because a few people think hes good, and this and that, doesnt mean theyre right. I along with a lot of people think hes been abysmal at times this seasons, why are we wrong? Im just going to agree to differ. If he really puts in a barnstorming performance, where he constantly knocks the ball beyond the full back and races down the line where he puts in quality crosses, then fair enough, I shall put my hands up and say yeah, 'well played'.

For me, in my experience of the game, the midfield is one of the most, if the most, crucual area of the field. In every position, therefore, justifying him by saying one quality cross all game, justifies his position , is not good enough imho. How about if that cross doesn't end up in a goal? , what were the other 89 mins and 57 seconds about? #

Its the fact he wastes valuable possesion, time and time again, that really narks me. For me, an instance on saturday just before he came off really summed it up for me. The ball was played by Bedeau across to right, inside the penalty area, at a time when we really needed that bit of quality to maintain our position, he hits the first man. taken off.

Course he has played well this season, im not denying that. I just think hes not good enough.

Doesnt mean were right but at the moment and looking at everyone bar Christian Roberts hes the best winger we can get unless Dicky pulls out a gem. Its not just you, sometimes he has actually been abysmal, just not as much as you and Phil think. You might say "yeah, well played" but if someone had an equal game to Wright youd be jizzing in your brown and mustard y-fronts.

It probably is the most important area as it defends and attacks but if we didnt have Wright on wed have Bedeau who unfortunately partly due to himself has not been very good bar Shrewsbury away/home and Wrexham he was alright.

- Bedeau - 1 goal plus however many assists (I dont know so am hoping someone else does)

- Wright - 3 goals plus 7? assists (im sure it was 7 last time I checked so ill use this)

Wright isnt the only one who can do nothing in a whole game, Sam has had ineffective games as has Fox, Taylor and Ciderquests half saturday but you dont seem that as you seem to have some stalker like fixation on Wright.

Course he has played well this season, im not denying that. I just think hes not good enough.

Wouldnt mind you saying that if we werent top/in a runaway group of 5 who are the only teams who will take the autos. the fact were top means and hes been playing regulary means hes obviously good enough, no amount of Sam Aistons will stop that.

[philthesaddler]

7 assists is that all? God thats awful. We've scored 40 goals aint we? Wright has only had a direct part to play in 7 of them. Blimey, the way people talk about him on here, you'd think he'd have 39 assists.

And Gaz, you can't really compare Wright and Bedeau, for a start Bedeau has only played 190 minutes probably, compared to Wright 20+ full games [1800 minutes]

[aaaae]

My favourite top quality performance from a Walsall player this season was Mark Wright against Bolton. He took Campo to the cleaners.

Furthermore if we are looking to strengthen the squad we don't need a right sided player (What about Darren Wrack)

If I had a transfer fund I would spend every last penny on a quality central midfileder.